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post #5731 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 03:26 PM
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I once saw CKCO-42 right next to WUAB/43 in its analog days.
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post #5732 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
That's interesting. I remember seeing channel 42 back in the analog days, and I think it was a repeater for CKCO in the Sarnia/Chatham Ontario area. I haven't checked that channel in a long time. I'm not sure what the status of that is, but there's a good chance it could still be on analog 42. Many rural analogs have remained on the air in Canada. I'll keep an eye out for it.
Sarnia would most likely not be in a "mandatory" digital conversion market.

I believe their primary station in Chatham/Kent would be.
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post #5733 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
It's worth a try. However, e-skip occurs more commonly in the daytime and up until around sunset and just a bit after. It hardly ever occurs at night.
Daytime? I have the best results with e-skip at night. It's like AM radio. However, Thanksgiving 2006 was when e-skip was taking over almost every local channel during the day. WRAP was like a scrambled cable channel as it was fighting with CICO-32. Position the antenna just right and CICO would null out WRAP.

I'm in the process of replacing that RS VU-190XR with something smaller. The VU-190XR is overkill for where I'm at, though it has done a good job with analog signals and digital signals like WKYC's pre-transition RF2. The tree next to the antenna has grown so much that the downward-growing branches have grabbed the VHF elements on windy days and snapped the fragile plastic tabs holding them in place. (Nice job with the cost-cutting RS. These antennas use to have aluminum-locking tabs). After re-positioning them back in place so many times, the elements break off completely from the insulator. Since it's really not necessary to have a low-VHF antenna in this area, I am leaning towards something like the Channel Master 100 mile digital advantage 2020, which has 3 pairs of hi-VHF elements and a long UHF boom for 100 mile reception. (Hopefully that will help with problem channels like 5 and 43). I'm not sure if it will improve reception of WCDN's RF 7, as the hi-VHF elements will be in the vicinity as the VU-190XR. No big deal I guess.

RS has Antennacraft antennas for an incredible price, but the nearby location doesn't have any in stock, or online.

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post #5734 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Daytime? I have the best results with e-skip at night. It's like AM radio. However, Thanksgiving 2006 was when e-skip was taking over almost every local channel during the day. WRAP was like a scrambled cable channel as it was fighting with CICO-32. Position the antenna just right and CICO would null out WRAP.

I'm in the process of replacing that RS VU-190XR with something smaller. The VU-190XR is overkill for where I'm at, though it has done a good job with analog signals and digital signals like WKYC's pre-transition RF2. The tree next to the antenna has grown so much that the downward-growing branches have grabbed the VHF elements on windy days and snapped the fragile plastic tabs holding them in place. (Nice job with the cost-cutting RS. These antennas use to have aluminum-locking tabs). After re-positioning them back in place so many times, the elements break off completely from the insulator. Since it's really not necessary to have a low-VHF antenna in this area, I am leaning towards something like the Channel Master 100 mile digital advantage 2020, which has 3 pairs of hi-VHF elements and a long UHF boom for 100 mile reception. (Hopefully that will help with problem channels like 5 and 43). I'm not sure if it will improve reception of WCDN's RF 7, as the hi-VHF elements will be in the vicinity as the VU-190XR. No big deal I guess.

RS has Antennacraft antennas for an incredible price, but the nearby location doesn't have any in stock, or online.
There is a huge difference between e-skip propagation and tropospheric propagation. Tropospheric ducting generally improves at night when a temperature inversion forms (cooler air below warmer air), and allows signals to bend around the earth's curvature. Tropo can affect all TV and FM signals, even UHF TV. It's common to see signals propagated by tropo around 100 to 200 miles around here, sometimes even further.

E-skip only affects TV channels 2-6, extremely rare on the high-VHF channels, and never UHF. There are layers in the ionosphere which cause these frequencies to bounce back to earth typically 600 to 1400 miles beyond the transmitter. This e-layer is around 60 miles above the earth, and when it reaches a certain charge is when the signals are mirrored back to earth. That's why you can watch Nebraska, South Dakota, Maine, Cuba, and Mexico on the low-VHF channels. And yes, e-skip DOES occur nearly all during the daytime. Here is a map with the current e-skip conditions... http://www.dxmaps.com/spots/map.php?...XC=N&HF=N&GL=N

Whenever I see an antenna manufacturer claim that an antenna can get UHF channels at 100 miles, I don't trust them. First of all, no UHF signal can be received normally at 100 miles unless it's being bent around the earth's curvature via tropo. The tower height would have to be unfeasible to accomplish that, and no antenna can penetrate the earth's curvature. Pay close attention to the antenna's gain number. That will tell you how well it performs.
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post #5735 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
There is a huge difference between e-skip propagation and tropospheric propagation. Tropospheric ducting generally improves at night when a temperature inversion forms (cooler air below warmer air), and allows signals to bend around the earth's curvature. Tropo can affect all TV and FM signals, even UHF TV. It's common to see signals propagated by tropo around 100 to 200 miles around here, sometimes even further.

E-skip only affects TV channels 2-6, extremely rare on the high-VHF channels, and never UHF. There are layers in the ionosphere which cause these frequencies to bounce back to earth typically 600 to 1400 miles beyond the transmitter. This e-layer is around 60 miles above the earth, and when it reaches a certain charge is when the signals are mirrored back to earth. That's why you can watch Nebraska, South Dakota, Maine, Cuba, and Mexico on the low-VHF channels. And yes, e-skip DOES occur nearly all during the daytime. Here is a map with the current e-skip conditions... http://www.dxmaps.com/spots/map.php?...XC=N&HF=N&GL=N
...And all this time I thought e-skip and tropo were the same. (AVS apparently doesn't have a smack head smiley).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
Whenever I see an antenna manufacturer claim that an antenna can get UHF channels at 100 miles, I don't trust them. First of all, no UHF signal can be received normally at 100 miles unless it's being bent around the earth's curvature via tropo. The tower height would have to be unfeasible to accomplish that, and no antenna can penetrate the earth's curvature. Pay close attention to the antenna's gain number. That will tell you how well it performs.
The ones I don't trust are those ugly Chinese antennas with the built-in amp and rotor...

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post #5736 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 06:19 PM
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E-skip just going insane right now. WMTX Tampa is beating out WMMS on 100.7, and in full HD. And WDBO Orlando beat out 96.5 Kiss FM Cleveland!!




Last edited by Andrew K; 06-29-2015 at 07:38 PM. Reason: Pictures added
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post #5737 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
E-skip just going insane right now. WMTX Tampa is beating out WMMS on 100.7, and in full HD. And WDBO Orlando beat out 96.5 Kiss FM Cleveland!!
Not getting any degradation on those channels, but I finally got a quick grab of something on RF 2. It was very brief, but left behind 3.3 KOTA3. The signal disappeared within a matter of minutes!

EDIT: KNOP 2.1 just briefly appeared on my TV. Only lasted for a few seconds and quickly disappeared.

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post #5738 of 5760 Old 06-29-2015, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Not getting any degradation on those channels, but I finally got a quick grab of something on RF 2. It was very brief, but left behind 3.3 KOTA3. The signal disappeared within a matter of minutes!

EDIT: KNOP 2.1 just briefly appeared on my TV. Only lasted for a few seconds and quickly disappeared.
NICE!!! That's classic e-skip!! The signal on channel 2 is still dancing here, but not decoding. I got both KNOP and KOTA today as well.

It seemed like every radio station from Florida was invading Ohio tonight, but unfortunately there aren't any low-VHFs in Florida to catch on DTV.
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post #5739 of 5760 Old 06-30-2015, 09:47 AM
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"... and a couple sub-decodes from CKCO 13 and CITY 31. You're much closer than I am.
CITY, isnt that testing still going on, on 31 here?

I'm not hearing or seeing anything, & anything from a great distance was always afternoon to very early evening.
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post #5740 of 5760 Old 06-30-2015, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
E-skip just going insane right now. WMTX Tampa is beating out WMMS on 100.7, and in full HD. And WDBO Orlando beat out 96.5 Kiss FM Cleveland!!




Hey now... the "Great 58"! , what time of day are you getting this? The AVS time stamps are all messed up.
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post #5741 of 5760 Old 06-30-2015, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
Hey now... the "Great 58"! , what time of day are you getting this? The AVS time stamps are all messed up.
That photo of 96.5 was yesterday at 9:16 PM. WDBO is in Orlando. It's a news-talk format. It was obliterating Kiss FM in Cleveland.

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CITY, isnt that testing still going on, on 31 here?

I'm not hearing or seeing anything, & anything from a great distance was always afternoon to very early evening.
31 must not be testing in Cleveland. Someone else reported that it wasn't even appearing on the spectrum analyzer. And a few nights ago, 31 CITY was just below the decode threshold with the antenna aimed north. That wouldn't of happened if the ATSC 3.0 tests were using 31.
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post #5742 of 5760 Old 06-30-2015, 04:49 PM
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WDBO's talk format moved exclusively to 96.5 FM years ago.

580 AM is now Orlando's ESPN Radio affiliate.
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post #5743 of 5760 Old 06-30-2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post

...And all this time I thought e-skip and tropo were the same.

(AVS apparently doesn't have a smack head smiley).

LoL.

How about this:
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post #5744 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 09:38 AM
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The RF 31 ATSC 3.0 test station is back up right now.

Newer is not always better.

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post #5745 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inundated View Post
WDBO's talk format moved exclusively to 96.5 FM years ago.

580 AM is now Orlando's ESPN Radio affiliate.
Haven't returned there in years, but the calls were also on Channel 6, pretty sure that was CBS at the time.

Been a while since I caught Florida DX I remember a Miami Classical station on 93.1 knocking WZAK off for a bit & them 102.7 out of Tampa ... years ago, & always in June.

Quote:
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The RF 31 ATSC 3.0 test station is back up right now.
Are they in ATSC 2 mode?

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post #5746 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post

The RF 31 ATSC 3.0 test station is back up right now.


Yeah, just checked with inputting ". 31" (Dot 31). That's RF channel selecting. Does the Zenith/Insignia do RF channel entry?

I got a peak 83 signal level with 31. Mostly sitting in the low-to-mid 70s. I swung the C4 to the NNW. N and NNE had lower signal levels.

Pics coming momentarily.




.


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post #5747 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 10:33 AM
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The first pic is of 3.3 Wx the other day.

The second one is the signal level of 31.1 (RF 31) moments ago. I turned my indoor C4 from the usual WNW to the NNW to get 31.1.

RF 8 with the antenna pointed NNW: Signal Level of 4.






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post #5748 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CleCakYngMfd View Post
I got a peak 83 signal level with 31. Mostly sitting in the low-to-mid 70s. I swung the C4 to the NNW. N and NNE had lower signal levels.
The signal is good here too on the portable TV. Afterall, it is a full-powered signal at the Parma antenna farm, so it should be good here.
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post #5749 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CleCakYngMfd View Post
Yeah, just checked with inputting ". 31" (Dot 31). That's RF channel selecting. Does the Zenith/Insignia do RF channel entry?
Yes, the Zenith/Insignia has it too. You can manually enter the RF channel number... for example, enter 31, and it goes directly to RF 31. But if you enter 19, it doesn't go directly to RF 19, it goes to virtual 19 WOIO. That is why I prefer going into the menu and manually flipping through the actual RF channel numbers.

By the way, get a Zenith/Insignia tuner on Ebay. They're far superior than any other tuner.
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post #5750 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by CleCakYngMfd View Post
The first pic is of 3.3 Wx the other day.
That's a new one.

Rewind to April 8, 2014...

Newer is not always better.

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post #5751 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
Haven't returned there in years, but the calls were also on Channel 6, pretty sure that was CBS at the time.
I believe they still are, though I think the calls are WKMG now.
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post #5752 of 5760 Old 07-01-2015, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, the Zenith/Insignia has it too. You can manually enter the RF channel number... for example, enter 31, and it goes directly to RF 31. But if you enter 19, it doesn't go directly to RF 19, it goes to virtual 19 WOIO.


Hmm. I push "." (Dot) and "RF" pops-up in the upper-right corner. Any number I enter goes to an RF channel, EXCEPT if it is an active digital channel, it then switches to that virtual channel number.

Is there something with the Zenith/Insignia boxes to do before entering a number for RF or is that the default mode?


.


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post #5753 of 5760 Old 07-02-2015, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CleCakYngMfd View Post
Is there something with the Zenith/Insignia boxes to do before entering a number for RF or is that the default mode?
No, just enter the number. That's it.

And if you're too impatient like me, you can hit OK and it will go to the channel so you don't have to wait.
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post #5754 of 5760 Old 07-02-2015, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
No, just enter the number. That's it.

And if you're too impatient like me, you can hit OK and it will go to the channel so you don't have to wait.
I usually go to setup > manual tuning when I want to campout on a channel with the Zenith.
The Haier is a little tricky because there's a physical and virtual 49 (and 17) in the area, usually enter the RF channel.

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post #5755 of 5760 Old 07-02-2015, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post

...Just enter the number. That's it.


That's strange. To me. The numbers entered on the Digital Stream's remote takes you virtual channels by default. I need to enter 'Dot+Number' for RF channels. I just assumed virtual channels are the default on all the boxes. Isn't that why virtual channels were implemented in the first place when DTV rolled-out - sticking with the 'familiar' channels for the public?


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post #5756 of 5760 Old Yesterday, 01:40 AM
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TROPO... The signal levels on all Pittsburgh stations are higher than I've ever seen them. Anyone else seeing Pittsburgh?? I even got a new low power station from that area... WOSC RF 31 virtual 61.


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post #5757 of 5760 Old Yesterday, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post

TROPO...

The signal levels on all Pittsburgh stations are higher than I've ever seen them.

Anyone else seeing Pittsburgh?





Indeed. I got just two of them with the indoor antenna pointed ENE. TV2 and TV11.








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post #5758 of 5760 Old Yesterday, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
TROPO... The signal levels on all Pittsburgh stations are higher than I've ever seen them. Anyone else seeing Pittsburgh?? I even got a new low power station from that area... WOSC RF 31 virtual 61.


Got PIT this morning along with WTAJ.


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post #5759 of 5760 Old Yesterday, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dleising View Post
Got PIT this morning along with WTAJ.
Last night's DTV scan was pretty full. Now that I think of it, I was seeing signals on almost every RF channel from 7-51. It looks like tonight may be just as good according to the forecast.

When WTAJ was coming in here, I checked the other channels to see if anything else was coming in from beyond Pittsburgh. I noticed a sub-decode on 46 from the east, which I would assume was WKBS/Altoona. But nothing really beyond that.

Last night's tropo decode log (not including local 24/7 channels)...
7/7 WTRF Wheeling
9/9 WTOV Steubenville
11/19 WPCW Pittsburgh
13/13 WQED Pittsburgh
19/19 WYFX Youngstown
22/66 WFXP Erie
25/2 KDKA Pittsburgh
27/56 WPCP Pittsburgh
31/61 WOSC Pittsburgh
32/10 WTAJ Altoona
33/11 WPXI New Castle
35/44 WOUC Cambridge
38/16 WINP Pittsburgh
40/18 WHIZ Zanesville
42/22 WPNT Pittsburgh
43/53 WPGH Pittsburgh
44/45 W44CR Youngstown
48/11 WPXI Pittsburgh
51/4 WTAE Pittsburgh
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post #5760 of 5760 Old Today, 07:06 AM
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CHCH/51 was in briefly last night, along with WFMJ. Both quickly disappeared.

Fox 66 Erie was in rock solid for several hours.
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