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post #8191 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
You should temporally connect some RG6 cable from your attic antenna down the halls to your TV. You will likely notice an improvement in signal strength.


STA extension dated 9/1/2016 (PDF)

We should know before the 21st if WRAP signs on it's digital.
What RF channel would WRAP use? Where is their transmitter (still Downtown or out in the Parma farm)?
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post #8192 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 03:03 PM
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While WLFM-LP has held a construction permit to convert to digital for three years, it would not be in their best interest to go digital. As an analog "Franken-FM" station, hundreds of thousands of people in the Cleveland area can listen to it on their FM radios.

They will probably make the switch to digital only when analog LPTVs are forced to go digital, at which point, the value of WLFM-LD will plummet - it would be accessible only to those who have a TV set with an antenna which is actually in use, and said antenna would have to be either low band ready or so close to the transmitter site that non-lowband antennas are overwhelmed by its signal.
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Weren't they the old WXOX 65? & had the permit to go D on 44?

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I never said that. I don't know anything about the status of WRAP-LD. Isn't that just another 24/7 infomercial channel? You can have that one Bismarck.
Are you being sarcastic now?!.... yes 32 will be a channel clogger stomp on Chicago for you!

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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
You should temporally connect some RG6 cable from your attic antenna down the halls to your TV. You will likely notice an improvement in signal strength.

STA extension dated 9/1/2016 (PDF)

We should know before the 21st if WRAP signs on it's digital.
TY, I knew it was mentioned here, now that has been a loooong 30 days! I thought they were still broadcasting Analog shopping channel to a few streets in Shaker Heights?

I'd be bringing it down from my attic antenna now instead of the roof, so no "apples to apples" comparison. I always thought 6QS had a noted difference over the 59, what I never cared for is the flimsy shielding in the 6.

Ideally I will have to put an amp in the attic & J pole for better aiming, as far as the downlead I'll have to live with the 59.


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What RF channel would WRAP use? Where is their transmitter (still Downtown or out in the Parma farm)?

At the latest at the FCC it was 32, & I believe it was going to the farm.... Snowdog?

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post #8193 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 03:33 PM
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What RF channel would WRAP use? Where is their transmitter (still Downtown or out in the Parma farm)?
RF 32, unless it's reassigned to another channel. Transmitter will be on the WQHS tower in Parma.

Of course, this all depends on the outcome of the repack, which is why the initial sign on has been delayed. If they can't use RF 32 or can't sign on at all, then they won't bother spending the money to put the station on the air.

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Weren't they the old WXOX 65? & had the permit to go D on 44?
Yes & No. Venture Technologies operated WXOX/65 with the HSN affiliation. When they were forced off the air due to their frequency being sold off to Verizon, a digital application was filed for RF 44, but studies showed possible interference with WNEO's RF 45 and the app was dismissed. They also tried filing for WJW's RF 31, but that was dismissed also. Sometime when their current analog 6 application was approved and shortly after signing on, the station was sold to Murray Hill broadcasting with the AAA format.

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post #8194 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 04:52 PM
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Strange Question

I'm in the Parma, Ohio area and just recently cut the cord and went to OTA. On one older HDTV after hooking up an antenna (with an amplifier since it's such a long cable run, I'm using old existing cable wiring), I can get all the channels except for 3-1 and 8-1, on these however I can get the subchannels fine (3-2, 3-3, and 8-2). Any ideas on what might be happening?
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post #8195 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
I'm in the Parma, Ohio area and just recently cut the cord and went to OTA. On one older HDTV after hooking up an antenna (with an amplifier since it's such a long cable run, I'm using old existing cable wiring), I can get all the channels except for 3-1 and 8-1, on these however I can get the subchannels fine (3-2, 3-3, and 8-2). Any ideas on what might be happening?
Ditch the amp! Even with a long cable, you should get all the Cleveland stations with no problem at all as their transmitters are located within feet of you! (Those very tall towers around SR 176 & 94). An amp is only useful if you're miles (40+) away from the transmitters. All you're doing is amplifying an already extremely strong signal and overloading the tuner, which will badly degrade your reception.

As for 3 & 8, try running the channel scan again after removing the amp, though they should come in anyhow seeing that you can get their subs. If you still have issues with those channels, try resetting the TV, if possible.
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post #8196 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 05:47 PM
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Are you being sarcastic now?!.... yes 32 will be a channel clogger stomp on Chicago for you!
If WRAP does come on the air soon, I hope it isn't a waste of space. If it's 24/7 infomercials or religious programming, then all the excitement is for nothing. Channel 32 is probably one of the best channels for DX here. I've logged the following...

32/6 WPSD Paducah, KY
32/57 WIFS Madison, WI
32/23 WNLO Buffalo, NY
32/23 WNDY Marion, IN
32/32 CICO Windsor, ON
32/10 WTAJ Altoona, PA
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post #8197 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Ditch the amp! Even with a long cable, you should get all the Cleveland stations with no problem at all as their transmitters are located within feet of you! (Those very tall towers around SR 176 & 94). An amp is only useful if you're miles (40+) away from the transmitters. All you're doing is amplifying an already extremely strong signal and overloading the tuner, which will badly degrade your reception.

As for 3 & 8, try running the channel scan again after removing the amp, though they should come in anyhow seeing that you can get their subs. If you still have issues with those channels, try resetting the TV, if possible.
I tried without the amplifier and could not get any signal. I have the amp positioned just after the antenna and before a splitter. I have the other leg of the splitter going to a newer TV and can get the channels that I can't get on the first TV, so I'm guessing it's something with that older TV.
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post #8198 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
I tried without the amplifier and could not get any signal. I have the amp positioned just after the antenna and before a splitter. I have the other leg of the splitter going to a newer TV and can get the channels that I can't get on the first TV, so I'm guessing it's something with that older TV.


When you say "old tv" how old is old?
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post #8199 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 06:07 PM
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When you say "old tv" how old is old?
JJK
I's a DLP Rear Projection HDTV, specifically a Toshiba 46HM95. The newer TV is a LED flat panel.
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post #8200 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 06:09 PM
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If WRAP does come on the air soon, I hope it isn't a waste of space. If it's 24/7 infomercials or religious programming, then all the excitement is for nothing.
As I said before, they must have something planned for WRAP. Why would they go through all this trouble and all these years of postponement just to air infomercials? ...And with a decent coverage area too.

Hopefully they will pickup some diginets that are not yet available here in the Cleveland market, though the selection is now mostly foreign language and religious. (Thanks to DTV America for adding the ones I'd like to watch to their WiFi equivalent stations). Maybe they'll pick up a diginet that might get dropped from a full power station, like Grit, Escape or GetTV.

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post #8201 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Ditch the amp! Even with a long cable, you should get all the Cleveland stations with no problem at all as their transmitters are located within feet of you! (Those very tall towers around SR 176 & 94). An amp is only useful if you're miles (40+) away from the transmitters. All you're doing is amplifying an already extremely strong signal and overloading the tuner, which will badly degrade your reception.

As for 3 & 8, try running the channel scan again after removing the amp, though they should come in anyhow seeing that you can get their subs. If you still have issues with those channels, try resetting the TV, if possible.
This antenna setup is somewhat temporary now, once I get a free weekend (that isn't bloody cold), I'd like to either try and hook up my old antenna attached to my chimney again, or place a new antenna on the back of the house outside somewhere. The problem with the former is that the cable is currently cut, it's old cable that would have to be replaced (it's old 2 conductor flat cable, not coax), and the pitch of my roof it almost insane (I have one of the older houses in the area, with lost of steep angles). The problem with the latter is I'm not sure about which antenna to get, I don't like the ones that seem like they are mostly plastic (that's what I currently have hooked up now, it's a cheap RCA antenna that I got at Olly's, and I'm not sure I'd trust it outside, even though it says it's an indoor/outdoor antenna)
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post #8202 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
I tried without the amplifier and could not get any signal. I have the amp positioned just after the antenna and before a splitter. I have the other leg of the splitter going to a newer TV and can get the channels that I can't get on the first TV, so I'm guessing it's something with that older TV.
Wow. I can't see you picking up anything without the amp. You should be able to stick a straighten paper clip in the back of your TV and pick up just about everything reliably. How long do you think the cable is & what grade? (RG59 or RG6, printed on the cable). What kind of antenna are you using and is it aimed correctly at the towers?

Early or poorly programmed digital tuners may have issues with certain stations. My RCA HDTV (2006) had issues with the audio on 5, 55 & 8-2 for many years. 5 & 55 upgraded their encoders at some point and the audio issue no longer plagues that TV on those stations. Perhaps your TV doesn't understand something that's being transmitted in 3-1 and 8-1?

Newer is not always better.
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post #8203 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
This antenna setup is somewhat temporary now, once I get a free weekend (that isn't bloody cold), I'd like to either try and hook up my old antenna attached to my chimney again, or place a new antenna on the back of the house outside somewhere. The problem with the former is that the cable is currently cut, it's old cable that would have to be replaced (it's old 2 conductor flat cable, not coax), and the pitch of my roof it almost insane (I have one of the older houses in the area, with lost of steep angles). The problem with the latter is I'm not sure about which antenna to get, I don't like the ones that seem like they are mostly plastic (that's what I currently have hooked up now, it's a cheap RCA antenna that I got at Olly's, and I'm not sure I'd trust it outside, even though it says it's an indoor/outdoor antenna)
Yeah, you really don't want those plastic antennas as they only receive UHF channels. If you do replace the one on your chimney, you don't need to replace it with one that's very big. Something small like the RCA ANT751R would be good enough. However, be aware that stations will get shuffled around within the next few years and some may even move to the low VHF band. Low VHF requires those long elements for optimal reception, which is probably what your current outdoor antenna has. If the antenna isn't badly weathered, I would get it working first before you spend money on a new one.

Newer is not always better.

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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Wow. I can't see you picking up anything without the amp. You should be able to stick a straighten paper clip in the back of your TV and pick up just about everything reliably. How long do you think the cable is & what grade? (RG59 or RG6, printed on the cable). What kind of antenna are you using and is it aimed correctly at the towers?

Early or poorly programmed digital tuners may have issues with certain stations. My RCA HDTV (2006) had issues with the audio on 5, 55 & 8-2 for many years. 5 & 55 upgraded their encoders at some point and the audio issue no longer plagues that TV on those stations. Perhaps your TV doesn't understand something that's being transmitted in 3-1 and 8-1?
The cable appears to be RG6 (it was left over from when I had Cable TV and DirecTV), but with a short RG59 run from the antenna to the house cabling. The run might be about 100-150 feet, it makes a lot of turns. The older TV is in the basement, so it couldn't get anything without an antenna located above ground level. The Antenna is a cheap RCA MAT007 that I got at Ollie's, I think it's supposed to be Omnidirectional.
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post #8205 of 8399 Old 03-06-2017, 07:22 PM
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The cable appears to be RG6 (it was left over from when I had Cable TV and DirecTV), but with a short RG59 run from the antenna to the house cabling. The run might be about 100-150 feet, it makes a lot of turns. The older TV is in the basement, so it couldn't get anything without an antenna located above ground level. The Antenna is a cheap RCA MAT007 that I got at Ollie's, I think it's supposed to be Omnidirectional.
RG6 is good, but avoid RG59 (especially long runs) when you decide to utilize the outdoor antenna. It might even be wise to use quad-shield RG6 coax. It costs more, but it will help minimize interference from the other TV stations as well as the FM stations that are extremely strong in your area.

Newer is not always better.
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post #8206 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
I'm in the Parma, Ohio area and just recently cut the cord and went to OTA. On one older HDTV after hooking up an antenna (with an amplifier since it's such a long cable run, I'm using old existing cable wiring), I can get all the channels except for 3-1 and 8-1, on these however I can get the subchannels fine (3-2, 3-3, and 8-2). Any ideas on what might be happening?
I am not sure why everyone is commenting on the type of coax and preamp you're using. If you're receiving 3-2 and 3-3, but not 3-1, then something is wrong with the tuner. Sometimes tuners can be quirky. Maybe a rescan would help??

Yes, I agree with the coax and preamp comments, but I don't think they're really relevant to the problem you're facing here.
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post #8207 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 10:43 AM
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I am not sure why everyone is commenting on the type of coax and preamp you're using. If you're receiving 3-2 and 3-3, but not 3-1, then something is wrong with the tuner. Sometimes tuners can be quirky. Maybe a rescan would help??

Yes, I agree with the coax and preamp comments, but I don't think they're really relevant to the problem you're facing here.
Yeah, I think it must be the tuner, because another TV on the other side of the splitter gets the channels correctly. And I think the only reason I need the preamp is to overcome the cable run length, I'll test more once I mount the antenna permanently, and get better cable runs.
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post #8208 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 11:32 AM
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And I think the only reason I need the preamp is to overcome the cable run length.
I do agree with Snowdog regarding the preamp... ditch it. It's overloading if you live in Parma, and that is going to make the situation worse. The cable loss isn't an issue. The Cleveland signals should already be strong enough.

If you want actual numbers... the signal strengths in Parma are around 60 to 80 dB noise margin. You only lose 1 dB of signal for about 18' of coax at channel 51. A splitter loses 3.5 dB of signal. Once the noise margin dips below zero (considering tuner noise figure of about 6 dB and other minor factors), technically you've lost the signal. You're not even close to that.
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post #8209 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 11:56 AM
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Yeah, I think it must be the tuner, because another TV on the other side of the splitter gets the channels correctly. And I think the only reason I need the preamp is to overcome the cable run length, I'll test more once I mount the antenna permanently, and get better cable runs.
Did you try if possible to run the cable directly into your old television without the splitter? Some splitters do not work well with amplifiers. Also, being near the Parma area myself, I would say that you probably won't gain all that much by mounting the antenna higher if you are near the towers already unless you are trying to get Akron stations. I found that placing my antenna lower actually worked better to get one channel I was having difficulty with, WEAO 49. It had to be in a certain spot due to the many trees around for one thing. I have always used RG6 and have used RCA and Radio Shack preamps but only because of 49. I use an older amplified Radio Shack model 15-2186 as a backup and a Clearstream 4 as the main antenna with an RCA amplifier TVPRAMP1. It is split two ways because of a recorder. Another model I used previously was one recommended on this old AVSForum thread:

EV's Recommended & Top Rated DTV Indoor UHF/VHF Set Top Antenna Review Round-Up Guide

It is the Eagle Aspen EASDTV2BUHF. I now use one indoors for an upstairs television with an amplifier and it works well. It does have sharp edges protruding however. I covered the spoke edges with plastic "covers" I found at Lowe's.

As for the tuning issue, I have never experienced that but I have had problems with WEKA 41 saying audio only. I had to enter those manually using the actual channel number like 27.1 or 27.0001 and then it worked. Try to experiment indoors first if you can as one spot might be the one which brings in all the channels you want depending on your terrain/location. If your television has a signal strength indicator, that should help.
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post #8210 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 01:33 PM
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The cable loss isn't an issue. The Cleveland signals should already be strong enough.
Signal loss with RG59 coax shouldn't be an issue for him. The problem is mostly due to the cable acting as an antenna itself because of it's poor shielding. Because he's so close to the transmitters, the strong signals penetrate the cable and adds interference to his reception. That's why I recommended the RG6-QS to help shield out those strong signals.

Back in the analog days, there were times when my uncle would see OTA channel 3 bleed though cable channel 3. The interference was similar to tropo. He had a cable that ran straight down from the attic to the basement, which would have been long enough to receive the wavelength of channel 3's old analog signal. Even though the cable was RG6 and may have been enough to prevent signal loss, it wasn't enough to shield out the unwanted interference.

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post #8211 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 02:10 PM
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Signal loss with RG59 coax shouldn't be an issue for him. The problem is mostly due to the cable acting as an antenna itself because of it's poor shielding. Because he's so close to the transmitters, the strong signals penetrate the cable and adds interference to his reception. That's why I recommended the RG6-QS to help shield out those strong signals.

Back in the analog days, there were times when my uncle would see OTA channel 3 bleed though cable channel 3. The interference was similar to tropo. He had a cable that ran straight down from the attic to the basement, which would have been long enough to receive the wavelength of channel 3's old analog signal. Even though the cable was RG6 and may have been enough to prevent signal loss, it wasn't enough to shield out the unwanted interference.


3 was quite common for Co Channel at least by me, the culprit was usually WSAZ in Huntington


When I can I do use 6QS, the dirty cable bleed is usually on 4 analog which continues on a daily basis.


I thought Cable was all digital & ATSC 1 compatible now?
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post #8212 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
I tried without the amplifier and could not get any signal. I have the amp positioned just after the antenna and before a splitter. I have the other leg of the splitter going to a newer TV and can get the channels that I can't get on the first TV, so I'm guessing it's something with that older TV.
Digital hides the "damage" that an amplifier causes when you are so close to the transmitters. Back in the 90's I lived in Seven Hills, on top of the hill. I purchased a "saucer" omnidirectional antenna which came with a built-in amplifier. When the power adder was plugged-in the analog VHF stations came in on UHF and visa versa, the overload was horrendous. It was better unplugged. I agree with the others here, ditch the amp or donate it to someone who actually needs it (someone in Ashtabula County for example).
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post #8213 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 03:55 PM
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I contacted WTVS in Detroit, and I was told that they're moving from channel 43 to 20 in the repack.
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post #8214 of 8399 Old 03-07-2017, 06:02 PM
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Now that we know WTVS in Detroit is moving to channel 20, that means that WFMJ (or any other full-power Youngstown station) cannot use that channel. Locally, it's still possible that WAOH-CD or W16DO can use channel 20.
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post #8215 of 8399 Old 03-08-2017, 05:49 AM
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You should temporally connect some RG6 cable from your attic antenna down the halls to your TV. You will likely notice an improvement in signal strength.


STA extension dated 9/1/2016 (PDF)

We should know before the 21st if WRAP signs on it's digital.
Regarding WRAP, their statement about resuming broadcast before 3/21/17 doesn’t make sense. The final channel assignments in the spectrum auction aren’t supposed to be released until April. If WRAP comes back on the air on channel 32 by March 21st, they’re not guaranteed that they’d even be able to stay on channel 32. If WRLM or any Youngstown station goes to channel 31, then that would present a problem with adjacent channel interference, and since WRAP isn’t a class A station, they’d be forced to move or go off the air.
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post #8216 of 8399 Old 03-08-2017, 09:18 AM
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Regarding WMFD Mansfield, I contacted the station, and I was told... "Yes WMFD will remain on the Air on channel 12".
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post #8217 of 8399 Old 03-08-2017, 09:42 AM
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Also nothing full-power in Cleveland can be on 20 either. Quickly running out of channels for WBNX & WQHS.

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Now that we know WTVS in Detroit is moving to channel 20, that means that WFMJ (or any other full-power Youngstown station) cannot use that channel. Locally, it's still possible that WAOH-CD or W16DO can use channel 20.
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post #8218 of 8399 Old 03-08-2017, 09:45 AM
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Good. Would be nice if they picked up a sub or two likely not to have a home soon (Grit, GetTV)

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Regarding WMFD Mansfield, I contacted the station, and I was told... "Yes WMFD will remain on the Air on channel 12".
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post #8219 of 8399 Old 03-08-2017, 11:42 AM
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Now that we know WTVS in Detroit is moving to channel 20, that means that WFMJ (or any other full-power Youngstown station) cannot use that channel. Locally, it's still possible that WAOH-CD or W16DO can use channel 20.
I'm thinking that Youngstown and Detroit ARE far enough from each other for co-channel DTV. RF channel 41 has hosted superpower DTV stations on Youngstown and Detroit since before the 2009 transition.

Is the FCC extending co-channel separation distances ?

I'd have expected them to try to reduce them, if anything.
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post #8220 of 8399 Old 03-08-2017, 11:53 AM
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I'm thinking that Youngstown and Detroit ARE far enough from each other for co-channel DTV. RF channel 41 has hosted superpower DTV stations on Youngstown and Detroit since before the 2009 transition.

Is the FCC extending co-channel separation distances ?

I'd have expected them to try to reduce them, if anything.
That’s what I would think too, but the “repack checker” is showing otherwise… https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...isplay=&ch1=20

Looking at the chart, WTVS cannot be co-channel with WFMJ, WYTV, or WKBN. However, WXYZ CAN be co-channel with WKBN. I am not sure why. Maybe someone else can explain, but either way, it must have to do with the fact that WTVS interferes in some way that WXYZ does not.
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