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Old 04-15-2017, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
COZI is now on WEAK 41.1, breaking up very badly.
Did they bump Newsmax or move it down to an different subchannel?
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Old 04-15-2017, 06:50 AM
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Thanks NSA for the low power possibilities
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Old 04-15-2017, 06:53 AM
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Actually decoded WOIO's Akron repeater for the first time yesterday. Must have been some tropo as WFMJ was also in.

WOIO needs to buy whatever encoder WFMJ uses, their dual 1080i looks fantastic. Flipping back and forth between WKYC and WFMJ coudn't really see the difference in PQ on NBC.

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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
I live only 1.6 miles from WOIO's repeater. I hope it goes away. I don't need it. I'd give it up to Bismarck if I could.
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Old 04-15-2017, 06:57 AM
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Overview of the diginet changes the last few days:
BY Network:

Grit 43.3 to 5.2
Cozi 5.2 to 41.1
NewsMax 41.1 to OFF AIR
AccuWeather 20.2 to OFF AIR
Cheddar 20.2 (NEW)
AMG TV 20.7 to OFF AIR

BY Channel:

5.2 Cozi to Grit
20.2 AccuWeather to Cheddar
20.7 AMG TV to Infomercials
41.1 Newsmax to Cozi
43.3 Grit to OFF AIR (eventually)

That's the most change our market has seen at one time I believe.
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:09 AM
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Maybe WOIO's Akron repeater will end up on RF5

There are a few possibilities for Cleveland but Akron looks brutal for LP's, Everything is either adjacent to Cleveland or Youngstown, or probably too close to Pittsburgh.

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Thanks NSA for the low power possibilities
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:19 AM
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It seems there would be enough allocations then for WRAP, WLFM and the DTV America channels if they want to stay in Cleveland.
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:28 AM
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WRAP might fit on 26. WQDI and WEKA on 16 and 20 respectively. There is little chance of the DTV America stations interfering with anyone when they basically have no signal, especially WQDI.

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Originally Posted by lakeeriemonster View Post
It seems there would be enough allocations then for WRAP, WLFM and the DTV America channels if they want to stay in Cleveland.
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
OK, that antenna is part of the problem. It's a UHF only antenna, and WOIO transmits on the hi-VHF band. This really isn't a problem if you are very close to the transmitter. The problem that I see is that it has a pre-amp in it. This is totally unnecessary for where you are at because it is taking an already strong signal and making it stronger. This overloads the TV's tuner and makes the reception appear weak. Try bypassing or turning off the amp and see if the reception for WOIO improves.
I tried without the 'Pre-Amp' and could not get anything above 3 and 5. The amp on it just currently overcomes the length of the cable run. Also where do you see that it is a UHF only antenna? the description on the page even says
Receives TV broadcasts including 4K and 1080 HDTV for highest-quality picture and sound, both UHF and VHF stations – up to 40 miles from the tower

I've thought about looking for another antenna to mount in the attic crawlspace, or maybe pull off the old DirectTV dish and mount it on that (just need to get a ladder to get to it), though I worry the DirecTV mount might be too low, and obstructed by a tree right there (just like the DirectTV dish was). The only other option I have is to try and crawl up on the roof and repair the old Antenna that is currently there (or put another antenna there to replace it)
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:42 AM
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I guess the 3 big questions regarding low powers:

1. Once the radio station goes away, will WLFM stick around as a TV station?

2. Will DTV America ever light up WUEK/KONV?

3. Speaking of DTV, can or will they buy WRAP and WDO16-D to have better coverage?
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Maybe WOIO's Akron repeater will end up on RF5

There are a few possibilities for Cleveland but Akron looks brutal for LP's, Everything is either adjacent to Cleveland or Youngstown, or probably too close to Pittsburgh.
By "brutal" you mean good, because I don't want any of these LDs or repeaters anywhere near me. In my opinion, they're just channel cloggers for DX. I don't care about WEKA or WQDI. Those don't even blip the signal at all here. WYFX-LD Youngstown and WIVM-LD Canton are receivable 24/7 here but weak enough to decode stuff over. I've seen Syracuse decode over WYFX and Green Bay decode over WIVM. Give all the LDs to Bismarck.
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:33 AM
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Mostly agree, though I wish WRAP would come on the air and grab COZI, Decades, and Buzzr from those no-signal stations.

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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
By "brutal" you mean good, because I don't want any of these LDs or repeaters anywhere near me. In my opinion, they're just channel cloggers for DX. I don't care about WEKA or WQDI. Those don't even blip the signal at all here. WYFX-LD Youngstown and WIVM-LD Canton are receivable 24/7 here but weak enough to decode stuff over. I've seen Syracuse decode over WYFX and Green Bay decode over WIVM. Give all the LDs to Bismarck.
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeeriemonster View Post
I guess the 3 big questions regarding low powers:
1. Once the radio station goes away, will WLFM stick around as a TV station?
No, WLFM is apparently toast once WOUC lights up RF6

EDIT: They could go to RF5 and go digital.

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Originally Posted by lakeeriemonster View Post
2. Will DTV America ever light up WUEK/KONV?
Where will these transmitters be located? On the same cell tower on W 3rd St in the Flats with negative HAAT and no power?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeeriemonster View Post
3. Speaking of DTV, can or will they buy WRAP and WDO16-D to have better coverage?
I wish. They should buy both and move their subs over. With the latest and greatest encoders they could probably fit all the WQDI/WEKA subs on one of them.

Last edited by nsa1062; 04-15-2017 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Inundated View Post
I have actually heard of that and have thought about looking into it, but it doesn't sound like an FM trap would work on my indoor amplified antenna. (And as stated earlier, an outdoor antenna - massive or modest - is not an option at my current location.)
It makes no difference if you're using an indoor or an outdoor antenna. In fact, the strong FM stations nearby will wreak havoc on WOIO's channel 10 signal especially since you're amplifying the signal. You may actually be making it worse by using the amplifier in close proximity to these blowtorches, both FM and UHF (WDLI, WVPX for example). I only use a preamp because I've been able to identify the sources of overload and remove them before the preamp, and it works... extremely well.

WOIO stated that the reason they placed the repeater in Akron was because a harmonic of 97.5 causes interference to channel 10. The simple solution is to just use the FM trap before the preamp.

You may have good luck finding one on eBay. Some are cheaper than others. I was able to get one for just over a dollar by shopping around, but the seller no longer carries them. Like I said, I'd recommend getting one that attenuates the whole FM band. Make sure it states that in the description.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FM-Trap-88-1...0AAOSwFe5Xx84d

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Improve-your...gAAOSwwIZXTa8q
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew K View Post
It makes no difference if you're using an indoor or an outdoor antenna.
I asked because most amplified indoor antennas are all-in-one, and there is no place to put the trap "between the antenna and the amplifier". However, my antenna, I might be able to do that.

I know WONE's engineer, and might ask him about this topic the next time I see him. And thank you very much for the links!
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
No, WLFM is apparently toast once WOUC lights up RF6

EDIT: They could go to RF5 and go digital.
I think that someone here passed along a rumor that WLFM (or its LMA operator for Mega) is planning to "move up the FM band".

There aren't many options. My guess is that they plan on leasing an HD sidechannel - WNWV would be my bet - to feed an FM translator. How they get THERE, I have no idea.

I also have no idea if WLFM intends to operate as a digital TV station post-repack...
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
For Low Powers:

In Cleveland:
2,4 - probably not - adjacent to WGGN
5 - probably
6 - no, WOUC
7 - WCDN
9,11,13 - maybe
14, 18 - no because of LM in Pittsburgh
16 - maybe
20 - probably (co-channel in Pittsburgh and Detroit also WOHZ in Mansfield, but that is very low power and I've never decoded it)
21,23,25 - no, adjacent to Akron stations
26 - probably (closest co-channels in Erie and Toledo)
28,30,32,34 - adjacent to Youngstown stations, so not sure.

Akron:
2,4 - probably not - adjacent to WGGN
5 - probably
6 - WOUC
7 - WCDN
9,11 - probably too close to WTOV/WPCW
13- maybe
14-20 - no, either LM or adjacent to Cleveland stations
21,23,25 - maybe though Pittsburgh stations might be too close
26 - adjacent to W16DO
28,30,32,34 - all adjacent to Youngstown.

Pretty slim pickings.
Plugged W16DO-D into TVStudy and pretended it was our basis for LPTV coverage. Interference from other stations into our new LPTV signal was ignored, only considered out-bound interference, UHF channels only:

16 fails WOSU at 1%
20 fails WOHZ-CD at 4.6%
21 fails WVPX at 1.55% (WQDI-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
23 fails WVPX at 1.7%, WEAO at 5.3%
25 fails WEAO at 5.44%, KDKA at 1.1% (WUEK-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
26 fails WFXP at 1%
28 fails WNEO at 12.76%
30 fails WNEO at 12.9%, WHIZ at 0.53%, WYTV at 12.6%
32 fails WYTV at 12.6%, WFMJ at 15.5% (WRAP-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
34 fails WFMJ at 15.6%, WVIZ at 0.54%

Of course, LPTVs tend to be customized to fit in available spaces, so the fact that they all fail this sample case is okay; the percentage just gives an idea of how much adjustment needs to be done--and to protect which station(s)--to be able to use a channel.

I also tested:

WYFX-LD on 32 - Fails WYTV 3.5%, and for good measure, WRAP-LD as currently permitted, 2.1% (2% is the rule for LPTV, unlike 0.5% for full-power/Class A)
WOIO-DRT on 23 - Fails WPXI 1.43%

I ignored almost all existing LPTVs.

Just in case anyone's interested.

- Trip
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Old 04-15-2017, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Of course, LPTVs tend to be customized to fit in available spaces, so the fact that they all fail this sample case is okay; the percentage just gives an idea of how much adjustment needs to be done--and to protect which station(s)--to be able to use a channel.
(snip)
WOIO-DRT on 23 - Fails WPXI 1.43%
Am I reading this right, that they could move it to RF 23 if they figure out how to fit it with WPXI?

And of course, we have no idea if Raycom wants to do whatever is needed after WEAO takes over RF 24.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:00 AM
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Mostly agree, though I wish WRAP would come on the air and grab COZI, Decades, and Buzzr from those no-signal stations.
I haven't looked to see if a future WRAP-LD makes it into Akron. It would certainly be a better possibility than WEAK/WQDI down here.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
21 fails WVPX at 1.55% (WQDI-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
Trip, would it be possible to create a mock up coverage map of WQDI's & WEKA's current power and pattern from a tower in Parma? (The WBNX tower, for example). Just curious as to how much farther their signal would travel on a much taller tower.

Newer is not always better.

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Old 04-15-2017, 10:33 AM
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Thanks, Trip.

Looks like 16, 21, and 26 have the best chance (if the power was dialed back a little or a directional null was use to protect the stations in question)?

Of course there is RF5 if anyone wanted to go to low VHF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Plugged W16DO-D into TVStudy and pretended it was our basis for LPTV coverage. Interference from other stations into our new LPTV signal was ignored, only considered out-bound interference, UHF channels only:

16 fails WOSU at 1%
20 fails WOHZ-CD at 4.6%
21 fails WVPX at 1.55% (WQDI-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
23 fails WVPX at 1.7%, WEAO at 5.3%
25 fails WEAO at 5.44%, KDKA at 1.1% (WUEK-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
26 fails WFXP at 1%
28 fails WNEO at 12.76%
30 fails WNEO at 12.9%, WHIZ at 0.53%, WYTV at 12.6%
32 fails WYTV at 12.6%, WFMJ at 15.5% (WRAP-LD is already here and would be the most likely beneficiary of any increase that becomes possible)
34 fails WFMJ at 15.6%, WVIZ at 0.54%
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Just in case anyone's interested.
- Trip
Very much so, thanks!
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:40 AM
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WUAB's tower will be available soon. They should go there.

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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Trip, would it be possible to create a mock up coverage map of WQDI's & WEKA's current power and pattern from a tower in Parma? (The WBNX tower, for example). Just curious as to how much father their signal would travel on a much taller tower.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:43 AM
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My guess about the Cleveland LPs:
WCDN stays put
WQDI stays put
WEKA moves to one of the open channels
WRAP moves to one of the open channels
WLFM goes off air
WUEK & KONV total ? marks

Just my analysis, we will see.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:50 AM
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Rabbitears seems to be down now, but IIRC WRAP's coverage was as good or better than W16DO

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I haven't looked to see if a future WRAP-LD makes it into Akron. It would certainly be a better possibility than WEAK/WQDI down here.
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Old 04-15-2017, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Rabbitears seems to be down now, but IIRC WRAP's coverage was as good or better than W16DO
WRAP-LD Coverage (Plus W16DO for reference).

WRAP-LD will be 5 kW more than W16DO (W16DO - 10 kW), but their antenna will not be as high up as W16DO. This makes their coverage somewhat smaller (about a 2 mile difference) compared to W16DO. Overall, it's still very good for a LP station and 500x better than what WEKA puts out.

Newer is not always better.
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Thanks, Trip.

Looks like 16, 21, and 26 have the best chance (if the power was dialed back a little or a directional null was use to protect the stations in question)?
Just realized I made a mistake. W16DO-D uses the Simple mask filter, which causes the most adjacent channel interference of the three filter types (Simple, Stringent, Full-service). Also note I'm not testing against Canadian stations at all, so that's a wildcard here as well.

I tested the WUAB antenna (same height/location/power) at 15 kW (max allowed) on channel 21. And the full-service mask filter. Passed with flying colors.

Here's the others, tested in the same way:

16 - Failed to WOSU 1.25%
20 - Failed to WOHZ-CD 4.94%
21 - Passed
23 - Passed
25 - Failed to WEAO 0.64%, KDKA 1.09%
26 - Failed to WFXP 1.24%
28 - Failed to WNEO 1.56%
30 - Failed to WNEO 2.55%, WHIZ 0.85%, WYTV 0.54%
32 - Failed to WYTV 1.15%, WFMJ 2.83%
34 - Failed to WFMJ 3.69%

And I retested WYFX-LD with the full-service mask, but on a few more channels. Assumed that 16/20/21/23/25 wouldn't work due to Pittsburgh full-powers. Based on 26 and KDKA (which is adjacent, not co-channel), I'm sure I'm right.

26 - Failed to KDKA 5.16%, WFXP 6.58%
28 - Failed to WJET 4.52%, WPCB 2.76%
30 - Failed to WBYD-CD 2.31%
32 - Failed to WRAP-LD 2.1%
34 - Failed to WNPB 2.44%

Of course, depending on what happens in the up-coming filing windows, those numbers will probably change. But it gives a sense of things.

- Trip

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Old 04-15-2017, 04:52 PM
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Is anyone else having a problem with Channel 19? I can't get any signal on there for the last 2 or 3 days, before that it was fine. I even tried moving my antenna farther to the edge of my house, with no change.
Update: Rotated the RCA antenna, then 19 came in fine, but I lost Channel 20. Purchased a new antenna,, one of these:

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...ith_Mount.html

After install, 19 comes in fine, 20 comes in ok (could be better, but I know it's a low power station), 16 is badly pixelated, and 41 is only about 75% (keeps pausing, occasionally drops), and it looks like I lost channel 53 (not a big deal, not into religious programming). Probably have to try and fine tune the way the antenna is pointed (even though I thought it's supposed to be omni-directional I thought), or maybe get a second antenna and a signal combiner, maybe? Anybody have any other ideas?
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:28 AM
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I had to think for a second - Channel 20? Oh, that's right, WQDI.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by cptgunther View Post
Update: Rotated the RCA antenna, then 19 came in fine, but I lost Channel 20. Purchased a new antenna,, one of these:

https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...ith_Mount.html

After install, 19 comes in fine, 20 comes in ok (could be better, but I know it's a low power station), 16 is badly pixelated, and 41 is only about 75% (keeps pausing, occasionally drops), and it looks like I lost channel 53 (not a big deal, not into religious programming). Probably have to try and fine tune the way the antenna is pointed (even though I thought it's supposed to be omni-directional I thought), or maybe get a second antenna and a signal combiner, maybe? Anybody have any other ideas?
I recall you were having problems last month when I replied to your post. The antenna you have is similar to what I have except I have the Clearstream 4 version without the VHF antenna on top. If you are near Parma as I recall you saying, you should have no trouble getting most if not all of the stations including Akron but it depends on where you are since if you are pointing the antenna south for Akron, you probably won't get WQDI as they are quite weak. I am not too far from the Broadview/Brookpark area which has lower terrain than most of Parma. But I am close enough to downtown to get Ch. 41 and 20 even though my antenna is pointing south. I do use an amplifier as I explained previously. I generally receive a signal in the 60-65 range for Ch. 41 and in the 30's for Ch. 20.

The Clearstream antenna I have as well as yours is quite directional when trying to receive distant stations such as Akron. But it will receive signals such as Ch. 41 and 20 from a different direction assuming you are close enough. Since their tower is in the flats, it might be that depending how high up you are in Parma, the signal is just not getting over to your area. Many others here have stated that they can barely get those channels or just Ch. 41. As far as Ch. 53, I think that is RF 7 which is also from Parma so you should be able to get that. Ch.16 is also from Parma. Are you using all RG6 cable? If not, it might be worth a try to use that. Also, try another position for the antenna. Higher is not always better when you are near tv or radio towers which might be causing interference for you. But as far as the antenna, that seems to be a good choice and should work once you find the right placement. However, I have found that it has to be aligned upright where you can see the "8" in the antenna and not sideways. For many years, I have tried various antennas for television as well as am/fm and I can say that experimentation is key as moving something a foot here or even a couple of inches can sometimes make a world of difference especially with weak signals.

As for using a signal combiner, I don't think that generally works well but I will let others here comment that have more experience with that.
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:05 PM
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Very interesting.

I'm surprised 21 and 23 work in Cleveland with Akron stations adjacent.

Would 16, 25, 26, and 28 be possibilities with somewhat lower power and/or nulls toward the stations in question?

Also seems like WYFX should work on 32 with a null toward WRAP (and since WRAP is not Class A the interference limit would be 2% not 0.5%, is that correct?). WKBN/WYTV is going to need it with all the networks they are going to otherwise cram on WYTV.

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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Just realized I made a mistake. W16DO-D uses the Simple mask filter, which causes the most adjacent channel interference of the three filter types (Simple, Stringent, Full-service). Also note I'm not testing against Canadian stations at all, so that's a wildcard here as well.

I tested the WUAB antenna (same height/location/power) at 15 kW (max allowed) on channel 21. And the full-service mask filter. Passed with flying colors.

Here's the others, tested in the same way:

16 - Failed to WOSU 1.25%
20 - Failed to WOHZ-CD 4.94%
21 - Passed
23 - Passed
25 - Failed to WEAO 0.64%, KDKA 1.09%
26 - Failed to WFXP 1.24%
28 - Failed to WNEO 1.56%
30 - Failed to WNEO 2.55%, WHIZ 0.85%, WYTV 0.54%
32 - Failed to WYTV 1.15%, WFMJ 2.83%
34 - Failed to WFMJ 3.69%

And I retested WYFX-LD with the full-service mask, but on a few more channels. Assumed that 16/20/21/23/25 wouldn't work due to Pittsburgh full-powers. Based on 26 and KDKA (which is adjacent, not co-channel), I'm sure I'm right.

26 - Failed to KDKA 5.16%, WFXP 6.58%
28 - Failed to WJET 4.52%, WPCB 2.76%
30 - Failed to WBYD-CD 2.31%
32 - Failed to WRAP-LD 2.1%
34 - Failed to WNPB 2.44%

Of course, depending on what happens in the up-coming filing windows, those numbers will probably change. But it gives a sense of things.

- Trip

Last edited by nsa1062; 04-16-2017 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 04-17-2017, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Very interesting.

I'm surprised 21 and 23 work in Cleveland with Akron stations adjacent.

Would 16, 25, 26, and 28 be possibilities with somewhat lower power and/or nulls toward the stations in question?

Also seems like WYFX should work on 32 with a null toward WRAP (and since WRAP is not Class A the interference limit would be 2% not 0.5%, is that correct?). WKBN/WYTV is going to need it with all the networks they are going to otherwise cram on WYTV.
The full-service mask is a lot more protective than the other types. The simple mask results in 7 dB ratio for adjacent channels. (I keep playing with this wording and after four tries, I'm still not sure it's 100% properly stated. See below.) The stringent mask has 12 dB. The full-service mask has 26 or 28 dB. It's more expensive, of course, but I don't think it's prohibitively so, and if it means having a big coverage area, I think LPTV station will make the investment.

I suspect most of them will be possibilities with directional antennas and lower heights/powers. The real question is who these stations want to reach and how much restriction in those things they are willing to accept.

And I concur, WYFX-LD does seem like it could work on 32 with a slight reduction in power to get below the 2%. But this all assumes the full-power/Class A stations don't expand in the coming expansion filing windows.

- Trip

(The 7, 12, and 26/28 dB numbers come straight out of the TVStudy rules for protection of adjacent channels, so I'm not sure how to phrase it to be clear about how it works without a dissertation. Hopefully the context makes it clear without that.)

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"


Last edited by Trip in VA; 04-17-2017 at 03:58 AM.
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