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post #9181 of 9696 Old 07-20-2017, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Where, though, will they transmit the ATSC 1.0 signal with 38-51 soon to be gone?
On the same RF channel in the same fashion as Mobile DTV.

Example:
WKYC 3.1
WKYC 3.1
WKYC 3.2
WKYC 3.3

ATSC 1.0 / ATSC 3.0

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post #9182 of 9696 Old 07-20-2017, 04:07 PM
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Don't think that will work as ATSC 3 is OFDM and ATSC 1 is 8-VSB - different modulation schemes so they can't be on the same RF channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
On the same RF channel in the same fashion as Mobile DTV.

Example:
WKYC 3.1
WKYC 3.1
WKYC 3.2
WKYC 3.3

ATSC 1.0 / ATSC 3.0
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post #9183 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 06:25 AM
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The payments to the winning bidders have gone out. This also indicates the dates the stations will be going off the air:

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Rele...A-17-702A2.pdf

Looking up the facility ID's we have:

WDLI(67893) - going off 1/23/2018 - Says will be channel sharing?
WAOH-CD(41070) - going off 10/25/2017 - no channel sharing, just going away
WUAB(8532) - 1/23/2018 - channel sharing
WRLM(43870) - 1/23/2018 -channel sharing???

WKBN(73153) - 1/23/2018 - channel sharing

WGGN(11027) - 8/2/2019 - band changing (to RF3)

EDIT: I guess "channel sharing" is just an intent to channel share, not that they necessarily have a CS partner at this time (in the case of WDLI and WRLM). Also, by indicating CS, it buys them an additional 90 days.

Last edited by nsa1062; 07-21-2017 at 06:39 AM.
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post #9184 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
The payments to the winning bidders have gone out. This also indicates the dates the stations will be going off the air:

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Rele...A-17-702A2.pdf

Looking up the facility ID's we have:

WDLI(67893) - going off 1/23/2018 - Says will be channel sharing?
WAOH-CD(41070) - going off 10/25/2017 - no channel sharing, just going away
WUAB(8532) - 1/23/2018 - channel sharing
WRLM(43870) - 1/23/2018 -channel sharing???

WKBN(73153) - 1/23/2018 - channel sharing

WGGN(11027) - 8/2/2019 - band changing (to RF3)

EDIT: I guess "channel sharing" is just an intent to channel share, not that they necessarily have a CS partner at this time (in the case of WDLI and WRLM). Also, by indicating CS, it buys them an additional 90 days.
So this means that WUAB will be over to WOIO and off the air on that date?

EDIT: Sorry, you already stated that.

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post #9185 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:31 AM
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FWIW, both TiVo and TitanTV have MeTV listings on 19.2 past 8/1.

The question is what happens to WRLM and WDLI. Does anyone think they might sign a channel-sharing agreement with one of the big Cleveland stations and possibly some good subchannel would be dropped to accommodate them? Hopefully they both end up on WVPX at the expense of the shopping/infomercial channels. You would think they want to target Akron/Canton anyway.

Since TBN and TCT only sold a few stations nationwide, I would assume they would both want to stay on the air in some capacity.

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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
So this means that WUAB will be over to WOIO and off the air on that date?

EDIT: Sorry, you already stated that.
Yes, the WUAB switchover to WOIO on or most likely before that date

Last edited by nsa1062; 07-21-2017 at 09:38 AM.
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post #9186 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
If WRLM/WDLI don't channel-share with a full-power station, then they lose cable must-carry.
Where did you hear that? I'm pretty sure that's not right.

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post #9187 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:36 AM
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If the CS host is a LP or Class A station, WDLI/WRLM would still have must-carry? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Where did you hear that? I'm pretty sure that's not right.

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post #9188 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
W16DO to W27EA ?

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...31145&goBack=N

WGGN modifies their request for 10kW ND to 5.5kW directional on RF3. Looks like a northern null with most power going south.

https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...82232&goBack=N
I think those antenna patterns are based on a 0 degrees true north, & may be rotated off the 0. This is just a data sheet from the manufacturer. Looks like the same pattern as now based on a 0 degree symmetry.

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"Tropo" is up, big time. As long as it is, WEKA will not be WEAK to Mentor.
Minor fluke, it's gone.

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A sign that WEAK is buying the station from Media-Com?
You're kidding? 16 has become a regular at least an nights this summer.

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Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Where, though, will they transmit the ATSC 1.0 signal with 38-51 soon to be gone?
Don't think they thought of that yet.
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post #9189 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
If the CS host is a LP or Class A station, WDLI/WRLM would still have must-carry? Interesting.
LPTV cannot host in first-generation channel sharing agreements. But Class A, yes.

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I think those antenna patterns are based on a 0 degrees true north, & may be rotated off the 0.
The W16DO-D pattern has 170 degrees of rotation. The WGGN pattern is likely to prevent the need for Canadian coordination at this time.

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post #9190 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:47 AM
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Not sure who WGGN has to protect on RF3 that they can't run 10kW ND. There isn't another RF3 for hundreds of miles. Must be adjacent-channel RF2 in Lima.

EDIT: Never mind, after seeing Trip's reply. Obviously they are protecting Canada. Though the null (from their New London TX site) is towards their COL Sandusky?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
I think those antenna patterns are based on a 0 degrees true north, & may be rotated off the 0. This is just a data sheet from the manufacturer. Looks like the same pattern as now based on a 0 degree symmetry.

Last edited by nsa1062; 07-21-2017 at 09:56 AM.
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post #9191 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:51 AM
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Hmmm, so W16DO(W27EA) could potentially end up hosting both WRLM and WDLI and both stations would have cable must-carry? But both stations are licensed to Canton and W16DO's signal doesn't get anywhere near Canton. Would that be allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
LPTV cannot host in first-generation channel sharing agreements. But Class A, yes.



The W16DO-D pattern has 170 degrees of rotation. The WGGN pattern is likely to prevent the need for Canadian coordination at this time.

- Trip
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post #9192 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Hmmm, so W16DO(W27EA) could potentially end up hosting both WRLM and WDLI and both stations would have cable must-carry? But both stations are licensed to Canton and W16DO's signal doesn't get anywhere near Canton. Would that be allowed?
They would change communities of license. Trinity has already filed to share on WDVB-CD in New York (change of COL from Poughkeepsie, NY to Jersey City, NJ) and WLPD-CD near Chicago (change of COL from La Salle, IL to Naperville, IL). Separately, an independent station in Atlantic City, NJ filed just today to share on WPHY-CD in Philadelphia, and will change COL to Cherry Hill, NJ.

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post #9193 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
LPTV cannot host in first-generation channel sharing agreements. But Class A, yes.



The W16DO-D pattern has 170 degrees of rotation. The WGGN pattern is likely to prevent the need for Canadian coordination at this time.

- Trip
Correct an nearly upside down pattern, pointing slightly Northeast (for a change) along the lake.

Does W16DO have cable carry in Cuyahoga County? It's not on Spectrum in Lake (Wickliffe to be specific).
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post #9194 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:21 AM
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Here's a map of W16DO-D on channel 27, for clarity: https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....=2006248&map=Y

Class A stations do not get must-carry except in very limited instances that I suspect do not apply here. So any carriage of W16DO-D is by agreement.

- Trip

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post #9195 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
FWIW, both TiVo and TitanTV have MeTV listings on 19.2 past 8/1.
That doesn't mean anything. WEWS 5.2 still had the COZI guide for a few days after the switch to GRIT. However, some stations will update the guide prior to a planed switch.
(I believe WKYC did this for 3.2 when it became Justice).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The W16DO-D pattern has 170 degrees of rotation.
I was wondering about the same thing. Why would they send most of their signal over the lake? I would think that they would keep it the way it is, especially with WAOH-LP going off the air a few months from now.

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Hmmm, so W16DO(W27EA) could potentially end up hosting both WRLM and WDLI and both stations would have cable must-carry? But both stations are licensed to Canton and W16DO's signal doesn't get anywhere near Canton. Would that be allowed?
I was thinking the same thing, though I thought that would have happened with WRAP/32 when/if they ever got on the air. Then again, could both owners file for a low VHF signal?

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post #9196 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:33 AM
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But if W16DO hosted say WRLM in a CS agreement, then WRLM would get must-carry because their license (for now) is full-power even though W16DO itself would not? Would they get must-carry for the whole market or just over W16DO's limited coverage area?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Here's a map of W16DO-D on channel 27, for clarity: https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....=2006248&map=Y

Class A stations do not get must-carry except in very limited instances that I suspect do not apply here. So any carriage of W16DO-D is by agreement.

- Trip
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post #9197 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:36 AM
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So we won't know until 8/1 I guess? WOIO is obviously not saying anything one way or the other.

Now that they got their cash, they can now purchase that top-of-the-line encoder.

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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
That doesn't mean anything. WEWS 5.2 still had the COZI guide for a few days after the switch to GRIT. However, some stations will update the guide prior to a planed switch.
(I believe WKYC did this for 3.2 when it became Justice).

Last edited by nsa1062; 07-21-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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post #9198 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Here's a map of W16DO-D on channel 27, for clarity: https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....=2006248&map=Y

Class A stations do not get must-carry except in very limited instances that I suspect do not apply here. So any carriage of W16DO-D is by agreement.

- Trip
Really spotty out to the Northeast (as usual, must be the ridge), I wonder how this compares to 16's current pattern (it is listed on your link as 16.1 anyway?).
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post #9199 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:38 AM
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RF5 is probably the only low-V that could be used for a LP station in Cleveland. 2-3-4 would probably be out because of WGGN and 6 because of WOUC (not to mention the FM issues).

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I was thinking the same thing, though I thought that would have happened with WRAP/32 when/if they ever got on the air. Then again, could both owners file for a low VHF signal?
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post #9200 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Then again, could both owners file for a low VHF signal?
No. They won a "go off air" bid, so they must go off air or channel share.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
But if W16DO hosted say WRLM in a CS agreement, then WRLM would get must-carry because their license (for now) is full-power even though W16DO itself would not? Would they get must-carry for the whole market or just over W16DO's limited coverage area?
Yes to the first question. Yes, sort of, to the second question. They're still required to put a good quality signal over the cable head ends.

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Originally Posted by Bismarck440 View Post
Really spotty out to the Northeast (as usual, must be the ridge), I wonder how this compares to 16's current pattern (it is listed on your link as 16.1 anyway?).
https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....=2000772&map=Y

That's the current licensed coverage.

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post #9201 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:43 AM
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Couldn't they run fiber to the headends if necessary?

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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Yes to the first question. Yes, sort of, to the second question. They're still required to put a good quality signal over the cable head ends.
- Trip
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post #9202 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:44 AM
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I saw Trip's map for W16DO on 27, and the orientation is the same. Perhaps an error on the tech sheet? Oh wait... Now I get it... That's just for the antenna itself. Duh...

Coverage mostly looks the same between the two, but I noticed that some areas towards the west (particularly west of Elyria) will get a slight improvement in reception.

Newer is not always better.
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post #9203 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Couldn't they run fiber to the headends if necessary?
Yes, but I don't know if that triggers must-carry. You're getting outside my area of expertise.

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Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
Coverage mostly looks the same between the two, but I noticed that some areas towards the west (particularly west of Elyria) will get a slight improvement in reception.
It should be. Filings in the initial 90-day filing period were required to stay within the pre-auction contour, except there was a 1% tolerance in case a directional antenna couldn't be perfectly matched on a new frequency.

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post #9204 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
No. They won a "go off air" bid, so they must go off air or channel share.
- Trip
OK. Geez... I can't remember all this stuff. LOL!

BTW, thanks for posting the applications for the new channel allocations. I see that the WVIZ antenna comes down in height. Is this due to WKYC's RF 19 antenna being slightly shorter? (WVIZ is currently stacked on top of WKYC)

And wow! WBNX gets a power cut of 49.95%, but in turn, gains an increase in height. Same with WQHS, but with a smaller decrease in power.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
BTW, thanks for posting the applications for the new channel allocations. I see that the WVIZ antenna comes down in height. Is this due to WKYC's RF 19 antenna being slightly shorter? (WVIZ is currently stacked on top of WKYC)
It appears WVIZ recalculated their HAAT using the FCC's newer terrain data and WKYC did not. If you look, the radiation center above mean sea level (RCAMSL) and the height above ground level (HAGL) did not change for either one.

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And wow! WBNX gets a power cut of 49.95%, but in turn, gains an increase in height. Same with WQHS, but with a smaller decrease in power.
WBNX moved down 13 channels, while WQHS moved up 2, and UHF power levels vary with frequency. Had neither changed their heights, WBNX would have had 744 kW, and WQHS would have had 546 kW.

- Trip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WBNX moved down 13 channels, while WQHS moved up 2, and UHF power levels vary with frequency. Had neither changed their heights, WBNX would have had 744 kW, and WQHS would have had 546 kW.

- Trip
I kind of figured that. Higher antennas usually mean that the station doesn't have to pump out a lot of power. Explains why W16DO comes in so well for a 10 kW station.

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post #9207 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 01:07 PM
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Is WOIO having problems with MeTV? The audio keeps cutting out.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
No. They won a "go off air" bid, so they must go off air or channel share.



Yes to the first question. Yes, sort of, to the second question. They're still required to put a good quality signal over the cable head ends.



https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....=2000772&map=Y

That's the current licensed coverage.

- Trip
TY for posting, I'm within a few hundred feet of the Minimum Field Strength Contour line (red) I note a slight shift in it, shouldn't be that significant, but time will tell.


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I saw Trip's map for W16DO on 27, and the orientation is the same. Perhaps an error on the tech sheet? Oh wait... Now I get it... That's just for the antenna itself. Duh...

Coverage mostly looks the same between the two, but I noticed that some areas towards the west (particularly west of Elyria) will get a slight improvement in reception.
West is Best!
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Originally Posted by nsa1062 View Post
Not sure who WGGN has to protect on RF3 that they can't run 10kW ND. There isn't another RF3 for hundreds of miles. Must be adjacent-channel RF2 in Lima.
WGGN's RF 3 coverage map. (no longley rice overlay yet).

Looks like I may be able to receive WGGN for the first time ever once they move to RF 3. Of course, this would be only when the tropo is up, which should make it receivable under the lightest conditions. However, I've lost most of the low-VHF elements off my antenna, so stronger tropo maybe required.

Newer is not always better.
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post #9210 of 9696 Old 07-21-2017, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
WGGN's RF 3 coverage map. (no longley rice overlay yet).
Ah, oops. Generated it.

https://rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=2006663&map=Y

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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