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post #7831 of 7936 Old 03-18-2014, 08:13 PM
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I 'm in Salisbury with hd dvr. Months ago 3 would give SD version of WBTV which was really the digital SD version, not the analog version that one would expect. Now with auto-hd on, I get the HD version (my channel lineup hasn't changed yet). My 2 sons live in Apex, NC. 3 doesn't give me CBS . One of the goals of the new lineup is for CBS to always have the same channel no., same thing for cable stations like ESPN, USA, etc.
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post #7832 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

IOne of the goals of the new lineup is for CBS to always have the same channel no., same thing for cable stations like ESPN, USA, etc.

That part I get. And I applaud them for it.

But the local channel numbering is just stupid. They should number them as their broadcast channels are.

Not that I have a dog in this fight. I have a Harmony Ultimate remote. It knows the channel numbers of everything. I just scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, find the icon of the station I want to watch, push it and it does the magic.
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post #7833 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 07:14 AM
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I have no problem with the concept of a theme-based lineup.  My problem is that we already had one that was better executed than this one.  Landmark services such as Disney, USA, ESPN, Discovery, etc. were on easy to remember landmark channels.  It annoys the living crap out of me that those landmark channels are now occupied by OnDemand channels (why do we have a separate block for On-Demand and an OnDemand Portal channel if they were going to gunk things up with duplicate OnDemand channels scattered all over the place?

 

Fortunately, 90% of my viewing is DVR-based so I don't have to deal with channel numbers so much.  Still annoys me that their NC statewide theme-based lineup, which I assume was a beta-test of sorts for this national lineup, was better executed than this final release.  All they had to do was merge the SD/HD channel ranges in our NC lineup and it would have made a much better national lineup than this one.

 

Semi-related...

  • My DTAs no longer deliver the HD versions of the OTA channels.  Probably a channel-mapping error, since non-SDV cable channels such as ESPN are still delivered in HD.
  • The new channel maps (with correct HD mapping EXCEPT for UNCTV) were delivered to my cable cards.  Unfortunately the new lineup hasn't yet hit the guide service that WMC uses.  MY WMC setups are now running on the 2-100 range plus a few channels that I added and mapped myself using guide tools to keep things going.  What's left of the old lineup in WMC runs out 7:30p on Friday.  It usually takes 1-3 days for lineup changes to get passed through to WMC so I'm not panicking just yet.

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post #7834 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ke4pym View Post

That part I get. And I applaud them for it.

But the local channel numbering is just stupid. They should number them as their broadcast channels are.

Not that I have a dog in this fight. I have a Harmony Ultimate remote. It knows the channel numbers of everything. I just scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll, find the icon of the station I want to watch, push it and it does the magic.

Back in 1937 the FCC allocated 22 frequency bands to be used for OTA broadcast. They lisited them in asending order, 1-22. WBTV was given the 3rd band, hence it became channel 3.

In 2009 local broadcasters were forced to stop using analog and start using digital. Most stations were already using a different frequency band for digital. After the cutoff most continued to use the digital band they had been using. WBTV is now on channel 23.

Using your logic they should call themselves WBTV Channel 23
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post #7835 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

Semi-related...My DTAs no longer deliver the HD versions of the OTA channels.  Probably a channel-mapping error, since non-SDV cable channels such as ESPN are still delivered in HD.

Yea, I noticed that..not too pleased with that, it really dumbs down a very nice box otherwise.

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #7836 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

Back in 1937 the FCC allocated 22 frequency bands to be used for OTA broadcast. They lisited them in asending order, 1-22. WBTV was given the 3rd band, hence it became channel 3.

In 2009 local broadcasters were forced to stop using analog and start using digital. Most stations were already using a different frequency band for digital. After the cutoff most continued to use the digital band they had been using. WBTV is now on channel 23.

Using your logic they should call themselves WBTV Channel 23

Technically, they probably should. But they were smart to keep their original channel naming for marketing purposes. The switch to digital was confusing enough for most people.

However, if you'll read in one of my first posts I mention that most, if not all OTA digital receivers will honor the Virtual Channel Number. So, if you tune to channel 3 the tuner will actually, in the background, tune to RF channel 23. So if a cheap $2 OTA digital tuner and Dish and DirecTV can make channel 3 show up as, you know, 3 - why can't TWC do the same? Again, I don't buy "because there's an analog channel there". The STB should be smart enough to tune to whatever QAM channel 3 is assigned to.

And for the record, WBTV elected to take channel 23. They could have certainly kept RF channel 3. But that low in the band and ATSC has a terrible time with interference.
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post #7837 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 05:25 PM
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There may be an ulterior motive behind TWC's channel numbering for the local broadcast stations.

TWC runs its own local or regional news channel, so it may not want people to think about the local newscasts on the broadcast stations.

TWC might just prefer that you think of whatever goofy four-digit channel number WBTV has as being the channel for CBS, not the channel for WBTV.

TWC might also start lobbying Congress to let them show an out-of-market CBS affiliate instead of WBTV if WBTV stands up for the level of retransmission consent payments it deserves.

 

I still like the call letter idea. Stations should market their call letters more than their legacy channel numbers.

But it would be so cool to be traveling in Chicago and just type in the call letters WBBM, WMAQ, or WGN rather than having to remember the channel numbers 2, 5, and 9.

 

Come to think of it, though, channel numbers aren't that big of a deal. For radio stations, people have been remembering frequencies and call letters for a long time.

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post #7838 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ke4pym View Post

Technically, they probably should. But they were smart to keep their original channel naming for marketing purposes. The switch to digital was confusing enough for most people.

However, if you'll read in one of my first posts I mention that most, if not all OTA digital receivers will honor the Virtual Channel Number. So, if you tune to channel 3 the tuner will actually, in the background, tune to RF channel 23. So if a cheap $2 OTA digital tuner and Dish and DirecTV can make channel 3 show up as, you know, 3 - why can't TWC do the same? Again, I don't buy "because there's an analog channel there". The STB should be smart enough to tune to whatever QAM channel 3 is assigned to.

And for the record, WBTV elected to take channel 23. They could have certainly kept RF channel 3. But that low in the band and ATSC has a terrible time with interference.

I was updated to the new channel lineup last night. Guess what? I press 3, I get the HD version of WBTV. Same thing if I select 3 from the guide. Seems you got your wish.

The FCC did everthing they could to do away with the low VHF channels. (2-7). I bet it would have been a real tog-of-war if WBTV had tried to keep 3.
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post #7839 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 08:27 PM
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There is a precedent  for trying to get affiliates of the same network in different cities to use the same channel number.

Way back in the late 1940's, when ABC was just starting its television network, it had O&O stations in five major cities (NYC, Chicago, Los Angeles, SF, and Detroit), and they were all Channel 7.

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post #7840 of 7936 Old 03-19-2014, 10:12 PM
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They called it the Circle 7.

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post #7841 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgcss View Post

.....

The FCC did everthing they could to do away with the low VHF channels. (2-7). I bet it would have been a real tog-of-war if WBTV had tried to keep 3.
VHF-lo is 2-6.

Not that local broadcasters really seem to care that much about their actual OTA viewers, Raycom included, but there is a very good reason for moving off VHF-Lo. Antenna size. The frequency band of VHF Lo is so low that it takes a rather large antenna to pick it up. For channel 3 it's ~7.5' (feet!). So no "leaf" antennas.

There are still a few places that still have VHF-Lo stations and they cause a lot of problems for people who go out and purchase a contemporary antenna only to find that it won't pick-up the station. There are not any of these in the CLT area, but WSPA did remain on VHF RF 7. It's receivable in parts of Charlotte and was once carried on Charlotte's city cable system. I remember watching it when WBTV decided to preempt CBS "to protect the people" from certain shows.


(TWC could map its channel #s to whatever it wants. It's simply very poor (as in none) human factors design)
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post #7842 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
The FCC did everthing they could to do away with the low VHF channels. (2-7).

No, they didn't.

If you look at the very first proposed table of allocations for digital TV from back in 1997,VHF low channels were included.
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post #7843 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post

Quote:
The FCC did everthing they could to do away with the low VHF channels. (2-7).

No, they didn't.

If you look at the very first proposed table of allocations for digital TV from back in 1997,VHF low channels were included.


The story I heard years ago was that the government was rumored to be doing away with channels 2-6 so the newer ABC network grabbed channel 7 wherever it could so it would be the lowest numbered channel on he dial.

Jim
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post #7844 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 05:58 PM
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Speaking of VHF-Lo, Me-TV is now on  KJWP (RF 2) in the Philadelphia area, and cable systems are having to try to figure out what channel number to assign to the new station.

 

http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-rcn-drops-metv-20140320,0,7791841.story

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post #7845 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post

There is a precedent  for trying to get affiliates of the same network in different cities to use the same channel number.
Way back in the late 1940's, when ABC was just starting its television network, it had O&O stations in five major cities (NYC, Chicago, Los Angeles, SF, and Detroit), and they were all Channel 7.
ABC is also on Channel 7 in Virginia, Maryland, DC from WJLA.
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post #7846 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 06:12 PM
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They called it the Circle 7.
They still use that logo.
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post #7847 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 07:11 PM
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After this lineup change has anyone had their channel maps not update to reflect the change? Zap2it is still showing the old line up so nothing will record. Anyone have any suggestions?

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post #7848 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 08:02 PM
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If you're using a Tivo (which has the same guide source as Zap2it) you have to repeat guided setup and re-select your lineup in order to get the new channel numbers.
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post #7849 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 08:05 PM
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WMC here. Now, if I do this with the "upgraded" zap2it listings do you think that Z2I will discontinue the new listings after a predetermined time thereby forcing me to re-update again? I know you can't answer for them, I just me likelihood of this happening.
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post #7850 of 7936 Old 03-20-2014, 08:58 PM
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Fixed by rescanning channels. For now at least. Does anyone know if this switch just made everything encrypted? I ask because the little bit of TV is watch is on my phone and if all my recordings will now me encrypted then I guess I'll be watching even less TV

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post #7851 of 7936 Old 03-21-2014, 12:12 AM
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Speaking of channel listings, somebody at WJZY or WCCB needs to contact Tribune Media, Rovi Guide, and other sources to correctly update the network logos for FOX and the CW. They are still incorrect since the affiliate change on TiVo and other Smart TV guides and listings.
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post #7852 of 7936 Old 03-21-2014, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
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Speaking of channel listings, somebody at WJZY or WCCB needs to contact Tribune Media, Rovi Guide, and other sources to correctly update the network logos for FOX and the CW. They are still incorrect since the affiliate change on TiVo and other Smart TV guides and listings.

 

TWC also appears to be incorrectly labeling the WCCB and WMYT subchannels that they carry.  Both were labeled DT2 when they should be DT3.  The incorrect labeling in the CableCard channel map and apparantly sent to Zap2it was causing WMC to pick up wrong guide information for those channels.  I was able to manually edit things in Guide Tool and re-associate them with the correct OTA listings, but other WMC or TiVo users might be confuzzled.  I'm not familiar enough with TiVo setups to know if they can edit guide listings/associations at all.


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post #7853 of 7936 Old 03-21-2014, 10:16 AM
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TWC also appears to be incorrectly labeling the WCCB and WMYT subchannels that they carry.  Both were labeled DT2 when they should be DT3.  The incorrect labeling in the CableCard channel map and apparantly sent to Zap2it was causing WMC to pick up wrong guide information for those channels.  I was able to manually edit things in Guide Tool and re-associate them with the correct OTA listings, but other WMC or TiVo users might be confuzzled.  I'm not familiar enough with TiVo setups to know if they can edit guide listings/associations at all.

I sent a feedback message to Zap2it on Wednesday. Usually they fix it within a day or two. Series 2 Tivo doesn't allow you to edit the guide listings.

As far as the logos, they also show up incorrectly in the TWC-TV app. I sent in a support request in August, but I think they're really confounded on that one.
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post #7854 of 7936 Old 03-23-2014, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post

My DTAs no longer deliver the HD versions of the OTA channels.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post


Yea, I noticed that..not too pleased with that, it really dumbs down a very nice box otherwise.

 

This has been corrected.


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post #7855 of 7936 Old 03-23-2014, 02:51 PM
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An unfortunate side effect of the merged HD/SD lineups is that, with few exceptions, all channels now carry the SD identifier and the corresponding lack of HD flags in the guide descriptions.  This totally hoses the "HD Only" option for series recording in WMC.  I didn't use that option for all series, but it was handy for HBO, SHO and PBS shows where first run episodes could appear on multiple channels, including SD channels (west coast feeds for HBO/SHO or PBS subchannels).  Now, if I set the series to record HD only, it finds no showings at all since none are flagged as HD in the guide.  I now have to either set specific channels (which can delay or eliminate the chance to pick up alternate showings in case of conflicts), or completely disable the SD west coast feeds and PBS subchannels in WMC to avoid the possibility of recording SD copies.  Ughhh!

 

Anyway... be aware of this if you use an alternate DVR that offers "HD Only" as a series recording option... the TWC lineup completely defeats it.


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post #7856 of 7936 Old 03-24-2014, 04:55 PM
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Hmm. I don't think WMC uses any guide data from TWC so whatever identifier they are putting on it for their own DVRs, WMC wouldn't know about it. On the other hand, Microsoft does a poor job with the guide data they do provide so maybe that is the issue. You could switch to MythTV which uses schedules direct. MythTV also has some pretty powerful scheduling abilities vs WMC. It wouldn't have any of the issues that you describe.
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post #7857 of 7936 Old 03-24-2014, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat6 View Post

Hmm. I don't think WMC uses any guide data from TWC so whatever identifier they are putting on it for their own DVRs, WMC wouldn't know about it. On the other hand, Microsoft does a poor job with the guide data they do provide so maybe that is the issue. You could switch to MythTV which uses schedules direct. MythTV also has some pretty powerful scheduling abilities vs WMC. It wouldn't have any of the issues that you describe.

Identifiers are loaded in the CableCard channel map by TWC and read by WMC.  WMC knows the identifier and channel number before it even downloads guide data.  It's different from how it works for OTA and ClearQAM setups.  WMC doesn't even channel scan a CableCard tuner... it just reads the channel map from the CableCard.

 

For better or worse, WMC is the only game in town if you use a CableCard tuner.  No other platform has been qualified by CableLabs to work with CableCards.

 

For what its worth, the identifiers were incorrect in the TWC boxes as well... until today.


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post #7858 of 7936 Old 03-25-2014, 12:14 AM
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I suppose it's another reason not to stay with cable. Microsoft
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Originally Posted by jcalabria View Post


For better or worse, WMC is the only game in town if you use a CableCard tuner.  No other platform has been qualified by CableLabs to work with CableCards.

See This: CableCARD

MythTV also supports firewire and/or IR blasting so you can use TWC's most simple receiver. MS has supposedly stopped updating WMC and and refers to it as "legacy". Not a good sign.
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post #7859 of 7936 Old 03-25-2014, 07:44 AM
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I suppose it's another reason not to stay with cable. Microsoft
See This: CableCARD

MythTV also supports firewire and/or IR blasting so you can use TWC's most simple receiver. MS has supposedly stopped updating WMC and and refers to it as "legacy". Not a good sign.

Your quote is correct in that it is a DRM issue vs an absolute Myth/CableCard incompatibility but, in reality, on TWC systems only the OTAs and a very few others you probably don't want to watch are flagged as copy freely, so Myth or other DVR front ends are not really a viable option.  I'm using a pool of network attached tuners (10 total... 6 CableCard, 2 ClearQAM and 2 OTA) that serve three dedicated media PCs as well as four laptops that see occasional use as either standalone wireless TVs or as wired media PCs at TV locations that get only occasional use (those TVs have TW DTAs attached full-time but the laptops can be used if a wider channel selection or playback of remote content is required).  It would ridiculous to try to replace all that tuning capability with TWC boxes.  I'm just going to ride WMC for as long as it's viable which I hope will run at least as long as Win7 is officially supported.


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post #7860 of 7936 Old 03-25-2014, 10:07 AM
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Charlotte is binding 8 channels now on D3 internet services.
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