Tucson, AZ - HDTV - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 3757 Old 01-23-2004, 12:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Misha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just got a reply from Chuck Amy at KOLD technical operations. He said

"You can post it as long as folks understand they may not get immediate responses. I will answer as promptly as practical."

his address is CAmy@kold.com

Mike

Space Scientists think LIGHTYEARS outside the box! 21 Red 2 Blue
Misha is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 3757 Old 01-23-2004, 04:52 PM
Senior Member
 
smsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am wondering if everybody is having the issues I am having. I have a Samsung T165 HDTV receiver. Here are my issues:

Channel 19 shows up as 19-1 not 18-1 as it should, plus it takes about 5 seconds
sync up.

Channel 25 shows up as 25-1 not 11-1 as it should, plus it takes about 5 seconds
sync up.

Channel 28 shows up as 28-1 and 28-2 not 27-1 and 27-2 as it should.

I get channel 4-1, 4-2, 4-3, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 9-1, 12-1 (from Phoenix), 13-1, and
40-1 fine.

Thanks,

Mark
smsprague is offline  
post #183 of 3757 Old 01-23-2004, 05:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Misha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mark,
I don't think I am even getting 19 and 25 at all, so don't feel so bad. The displayed channel name is a text string included in the signal by the broadcaster. I am betting that 19, 28, and 25 have not included these in their signal (in the PSIP data?) yet. Where are you located? I am still trying to figure out why I can get most of the digital stations, but not 11(25).

Mike

Space Scientists think LIGHTYEARS outside the box! 21 Red 2 Blue
Misha is offline  
post #184 of 3757 Old 01-23-2004, 05:36 PM
Senior Member
 
smsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mike,

I am in the Northeast at the base of Mount Lemmon (Fort Lowell and Prince), I have an old Radio Shack boom antenna (120 inch) on my roof.

Mark
smsprague is offline  
post #185 of 3757 Old 01-23-2004, 06:08 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Carey P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Mark,

It is interesting how you can get Phoenix (I assume KPNX CH 36) from where you are located. Did this station just turn on recently? Maybe I should try it.

Anyway, it is also funny how you register KOLD as 13-1. I thought that's the way I always saw it, but as of last night, I am only getting it as 32-1. I was thinking this had something to do with the PSIP data that Chuck may have removed to prevent the tuner lock up problem. WHICH IS FINE WITH ME - CHUCK But, I'm seriously wondering now whether any real changes were made, or that it has something to do with auto detecting the channel in some way that reads far too much PSIP for my tuner to handle. There may be something more to this going on than I imagined. Chuck - did you ever really change the PSIP table?? Just curious!

Carey
Carey P is online now  
post #186 of 3757 Old 01-23-2004, 06:45 PM
Senior Member
 
smsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mike,

KPNX CH 36 (12-1) just showed up this week. I am getting KOLD as 13-1. My tuner (Samsung T165) has issue with the KUAT channels. If 6-1 is on and 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5 are off my tuner will continually reboot on 6-2 thru 6-5. If 6-1 is off and 6-2 thru 6-5 are on my tuner reboots on 6-1. The same happens on 28-1 and 28-2. Samsung says they are broadcasting incorrectly (bad PSIP), KAUT say they are right. My neighbor has a Samsung T160 (Direct TV box) and does not have this issue. Gotta love it.

Mark
smsprague is offline  
post #187 of 3757 Old 01-26-2004, 12:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Misha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mark,
I guess that is the price we impatient people pay for being early-adoptors ! My receiver is currently saying it does not see channel 6 digital at all, although I know that I have picked it up in the past. It should also be coming in on my 4 bay bow-tie from Bigelow, if I remember correctly. I seem to have to keep adding things back with auto search, then manually re-add to my favorites lists. I wish there was a way to lock stations in, whether they appear good at the moment or not. Also, I finally figured out what the defective video on 4-3 is. Previously, I had only seen it at night, and it was a strange distorted mess of red and yellow lights, with some flickering a bit. I finally checked it on Sunday during the day and found that it is the view from their tower cam near A mountain! It has the same audio as the current programming, but you can see the city, Catalina's, and clouds any time you want. Can even just see cars traveling on the freeway in the foreground.

Mike

Space Scientists think LIGHTYEARS outside the box! 21 Red 2 Blue
Misha is offline  
post #188 of 3757 Old 01-29-2004, 12:37 PM
Senior Member
 
Misha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
at the suggestion of 1074j, I have looked specifically at my reception of KMSB and KTTU. I have tended to ignore them as they keep disappearing from my favorites lists. The reasons for this are now somewhat clearer.

KMSB 11/25: I can receive the carrier signal, with a signal quality of around 70, but it never shows an image, or audio. There is no channel name of equivalent analog station number, so I may not be getting the PSIP data, either. It seems to me that I did get this station at one time, but not recently.

KTTU 18/19: This one is even stranger. When I do an auto scan for digital stations, it counts channel 19 as a digital station, but does not add it to the list. If I manually add it, I get a signal quality of 75 (occasionally dropping to 0), but my Dishnet 6000 HD receiver still refuses to add it to the list. When watching channels, I can not manually go to 019-1 either, it will jump to the nearest valid channel, instead. Obviously, I can not tell what the image or sound quality is like if it will never accept 19 as a possible channel. I think I may have been able to get this one in the past, as well.

During the auto scan for digital channels, I am not getting 8 or 9 of the 9 possible digital channels listed on antennaweb.org for this area. But, only 6 end up available for watching. Even KWBA, with a very weak signal of 65 comes in clearly (may be sending lots of redundant data for their SD only broadcasts ?), but the stronger KMSB and KTTU signals are complete no shows. I am about to email the stations directly and confirm their digital broadcast tower locations, and see if they know why their signals are not receivable. Does any one else get the stations OK, and are you using a different digital tuner than mine? These are not high priorities, but I would like to watch 24 with the better PQ, and try Enterprise in 16x9 (possibly HD) on my big screen.

Mike

Space Scientists think LIGHTYEARS outside the box! 21 Red 2 Blue
Misha is offline  
post #189 of 3757 Old 01-29-2004, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Carey P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Mike,

And I thought I had problems! I guess this tuner/PSIP dilema will exist for some time, until someone can decide on a good standard. I don't have a problem with any of those stations mentioned, FWIW. I watch Enterprise all the time in digital, since 19 has a really good quality signal.

If you dare to read my older posts, I explained that you will only see it in 16:9 within a 4:3 within a 16:9. That's because they are not getting it in HD, though their SD upconverting is excellent for this show. Also, it continues to look just as 'dark' as the analog signal always has. The good thing is that it is in dolby stereo!

I have not had a chance to watch 24 yet on the big screen, but since that's not in HD either, I just didn't have enough incentive yet.

BTW, I tried for that KPNO station in PHX, and only managed 10-15% signal if that, so obviously it was trash. Funny how that signal can reach someone in midtown and not here on the west side. Even funnier how strong I can receive Bigalow in digital and yet I can't receive a single analog station from there without mostly snow.

All I can say at this point is - I hope KOLD has their act together for Super Bowl or there's going to be some mighty upset people out there.
Carey P is online now  
post #190 of 3757 Old 01-29-2004, 03:35 PM
Senior Member
 
Misha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Carey,
I do not know if it a PSIP problem, a receiver incompatibility problem, as signal cancelation at my antenna for just those to frequencies, or a transmitter problem. I just got back from KMSB, and they have no idea. They also say they have not changed anything since they started up, so if I ever got them, then I still should be.

Good luck on the SB!

Mike

Space Scientists think LIGHTYEARS outside the box! 21 Red 2 Blue
Misha is offline  
post #191 of 3757 Old 01-29-2004, 05:46 PM
Senior Member
 
smsprague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 287
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Carey/Mike,

I get both 19 and 25 after about 5 seconds for them to sync up. 19 shows up as 19-1 not 18-1 as it should, 25 shows up as 25-1 not 11-1 as it should. Once I get them both channels seem to broadcast with no transmission problems. I have never seen anything other than SD 4:3 shows. About a 3 or 4 weeks ago both stations showed up as 11-1 and 18-1 as they should. I have a Samsung T165.

Another question, does anyone get channel 44 (58-1)?

Mark
smsprague is offline  
post #192 of 3757 Old 01-29-2004, 08:26 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 84
After reading about all the complicated reception issues you guys are experiencing, I feel pretty lucky. I have visual line of sight with Bigelow at about five miles, but I had terrible reception because I had the wrong antenna. KOLD and others often had dropouts and no audio. I put up the RS $21.95 UHF only directional antenna and now have signal strength at 100%.

I post not to brag, but to share the problem differences in antennae made, despite my ideal location.

Cheers
Cam Man is offline  
post #193 of 3757 Old 01-29-2004, 11:39 PM
Member
 
Jibby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Cam Man,
I am using a RS powered indoor antenna at around Speedway and Harrison. I was having the pixelation and audio dropouts you and the others were having with KOLD and pixelation with PBSHD. But, I haven't had any problems for several days now...just a little bit of pixelation with KVOA on fast camera movements on Leno. KVOA solved this problem today by using more bandwidth for their HD by including the bandwidth that was allocated for 4-2 & 4-3...now up to 19+ megabytes.
KOLD seems to have solved their audio problems and PBSHD has been good.
I think the fact that your reception is better now may have been more of a function of the stations solving problems than antenna quality.
Jibby is offline  
post #194 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 12:00 AM
Member
 
Jibby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mark,
I get 25 and 19 exactly the same way you do. I kind of stumbled on the fact that 25 would work if I waited it out. (Only SD for those two...but KMSB has done some live Fox NFL in ED. Fox has no plans for HD. I think they plan on staying with ED (probably 480P).
The only ones delaying primetime HD programming are PBS, KOLD & KVOA. KGUN does not have plans to get the server necessary for delaying in the near future....maybe not until next year. They will carry live HD programming.
Can't wait for the olympics this summer. Will be in HD.
Jibby is offline  
post #195 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 05:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:


I think the fact that your reception is better now may have been more of a function of the stations solving problems than antenna quality.

As fate would have it...
Cam Man is offline  
post #196 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Carey P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Jibby - What station is showing the Olympics?

KGUN-DT is a real dissapointment! I can't believe they would put off delayed HD until next year . It's too bad the network won't delay it for them. If they ever do show HD in the future, their signal is 720p, so we'll see how that compares to 1080i.

I noticed last night that 19-1 had many dropouts in their regular programming. All other stations appeared solid. Their signal had been fine before.

I'm really impressed how KUAT can have so many subchannels in full HD resolution. They must be at some reduced bandwidth, though they all look perfect to me.
Carey P is online now  
post #197 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 12:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Misha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mark,
Yes, I can get 44 (WBA-DT) fine. Their signal is pretty week <60 from my small combo antenna pointed south, but the image is fine.

Carey,
The last I checked, KUAT HD is showing only pre-recorded material, not live or standard channel up-converted. They may have done a more careful, non-real time compression. That way, they can get good PQ with a smaller bandwidth. It is the rea time stuff that is hard to make look good with a small bandwidth. Note the eariler comments about pixelation during rapid pans on Leno. When they up-convert their SD, they may have to drop the additional channels to get the same PQ.

Mike

Space Scientists think LIGHTYEARS outside the box! 21 Red 2 Blue
Misha is offline  
post #198 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 03:31 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
bluestar48's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally posted by Jibby

but KMSB has done some live Fox NFL in ED. Fox has no plans for HD. I think they plan on staying with ED (probably 480P).
The only ones delaying primetime HD programming are PBS, KOLD & KVOA. KGUN does not have plans to get the server necessary for delaying in the near future....maybe not until next year. They will carry live HD programming.
Can't wait for the olympics this summer. Will be in HD.

I think I remember seeing somewhere that KGUN is hoping to have a server online in June of this year. Also, I think FOX is going to 720p for it's scripted programming in the fall. I don't know if they plan on using HD for sports or stay with the ED they've been using. Now whether KMSB plans to make the changes needed to show 720p is anyone's guess.

Tony
bluestar48 is offline  
post #199 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 03:35 PM
Member
 
Jibby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You'll notice that KUAT's HD is not real good...not as "looking thru a window" good as the stations using more bandwidth.

The olympics are on NBC, this summer.....definitely in HD.

We'll see ups and downs as stations experiment to find the best signal. I understand that audio is one of the most difficult aspects of digital TV.

This is a work in progress. We are witnessing history, guys. I'm old enough that I went thru the same thing when color came aboard.

And....we were one of the first ones with a TV when I was a kid. I remember watching a snowy test pattern for a half hour, waiting for the station to sign on with Howdy Doody at around 3:30 or 4:00 in the afternoon.

No....I didn't know Marconi, personally.

Jibby
Jibby is offline  
post #200 of 3757 Old 01-30-2004, 08:00 PM
Newbie
 
toyzzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: tucson,az
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i also get 58-1 fairly well on the east side of town. the only tough one i have is 4-1.
toyzzzz is offline  
post #201 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Carey P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The live feed looks great with no cyclic dropouts or commercial problems. Keep it coming. It'll be a great party this year!

Carey
Carey P is online now  
post #202 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 11:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Ditto! Kudos Chuck. Stay on it, man, you've got the code today!
Cam Man is offline  
post #203 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 12:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 84
There is something a bit troublesome about the way audio is being broadcast. The two-channel DD is matrixed in a way that will not allow Dolby Pro-Logic II to allocate to L, C, R, Surrounds properly. There is way too much dialogue in the main left and right, and in the surrounds; no solid center channel. This is so distracting that we may have to go with 2-channel DD. We'll just have to see how it is with the actual game. PQ is hanging in there beautifully.
Cam Man is offline  
post #204 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 12:39 PM
Member
 
Jibby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My lipsync is not right on...slightly off. Are you other guys seeing/hearing the same thing?

I think you will find that nobody in town is doing 5.1 sound yet...only 2 channels. What is coming out of your surround speakers is artificially done by your audio receiver. Not sure about this, but that's what I am told by the engineers that should know.
Jibby is offline  
post #205 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 01:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Yes, audio sync is off by a few frames.

Two-channel DD should be matrix encoded just a all two-channel stereo for television (and used to be for theaters). If matrixed correctly, this 2-channel should give us L,C,R, and surrround at proper levels in Dolby Pro Logic II. What we are hearing today is not Dolby stereo encoded properly; the standard that would permit our receivers to decode it properly. Change around to other HD 2-channel DD such as Discovery HD, or even non-HD and give a listen. 95% of broadcast stereo sources get this right these days. Don't know why CBS (or KOLD) is this way today.
Cam Man is offline  
post #206 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Carey P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I noticed that as soon as KOLD went live at 12 noon, the audio was more into the surrounds and main channels, like Cam Man reported.

I am running straight digital coax from the tuner to receiver in SPDIF mode. I have many DSP modes to choose from. I found, howver, that in my usual TV/Sports mode (for this sort of thing), I had to turn way down the reverb, surround delay and primary and surround room fields, until the annoying echoing from the mains and surround were almost gone. It was mainly apparent during commercials.

Even Dolby Enhanced even needs tamed. Dolby Standard or no effects altogether works fine, if need to resort to it.

Jibby,
My lipsync is right on.
Carey P is online now  
post #207 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 08:15 PM
Member
 
Jibby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I changed my audio receiver from surround to stereo and that helped with the lipsync. Not quite, but almost right on.
SB looked great though, didn't it? You could actually see the texture of the helmets, grass blades, and the fact that Jim Nance shaved really early this morning.
My wife noticed on West Wing the other night that Stockard Channing had hairs on her chin :-).....and you could see that John Spencer's (Chief of Staff) makeup wasn't perfect along part of his lip line.
Jibby is offline  
post #208 of 3757 Old 02-01-2004, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Carey P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Posts: 1,609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
There were only a few audio drops during the whole game. What was very annoying was some of the commercials being very loud compared with others. I always had to keep the remote in hand ready to adjust the volume.

It seemed there was a problem during half time when the video broke up for a few seconds or more. Probably a network problem. Sure wish I was recording that surprise ending .

Overall, I was very impressed. Far better than I was expecting.
Carey P is online now  
post #209 of 3757 Old 02-02-2004, 06:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 2,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Agreed. It really took the event to a new level. We always have a SB party, but I had not advertised the fact that we would enjoy a technological milestone this year for fear that it would let us down.

Chuck, if your following, great job.
Cam Man is offline  
post #210 of 3757 Old 02-04-2004, 09:05 PM
Senior Member
 
Old Fogey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Peoria, AZ, USA
Posts: 341
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Question deleted (got the answer).

John Folsom
Retired Broadcast Engineer
Old Fogey is offline  
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off