"Zoom" image on HDTV reception - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently began to receive HD from Time Warner Cable. Everything works great. However, during "24" on Fox last night (which I realize is not 1080), it appeared that the image on the HD channel was zoomed. So much so that half of the FOX logo was not in the image. About the equivalent of the zoom feature on my Mits 55. When I tried the format button to make sure it wasnt accidently zoomed, it informed me that it was not available with an HD signal.

Is this normal ? I watched Philly on ABC after and it even appeared a little zoomed.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 11:43 AM
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On most TVS, there are different formats. Standard, stretched, zoom, etc. Check that first, and if it is on zoom, move it to standard, and try again. That might be the problem, because I watched both shows last night with no problem, but I am using Directv, and OTA for HDTV.
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post #3 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 12:27 PM
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The FOX logo is very close to the edge of the active picture area. If it is going off the edge of your screen, you probably have a little too much overscan.
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post #4 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I am aware that my TV has different formats. My Mits is in "standard" format - not "zoom", which I never use. In fact, while watching HD it does not even allow me to change formats. All the other channels (HBO, locals) look just fine and dont have this problem. "24" is the only show so far that clearly is zoomed. So much, in fact, that several shots cut off peoples heads where the SD channel showed the whole head. (I was flipping back and forth). And, like I said the FOX logo was practically off the screen.

If nobody else has notice that 24 behaves this way, then I guess it is just me. Has anyone else in Houston noticed.

Thanks
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post #5 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 01:00 PM
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Check The Spot in the Mitsubishi Tweaks section and you can adjust your overscan. But, be careful, as that could introduce areas that are out of convergence or have other geometry problems.
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post #6 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 05:51 PM
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HG-
My Toshiba 50H81 is similar in that when in HD mode, I cannot adjust the different zoom levels. I also have the same problem when watching Fox widescreen programs. I'm convinced that the program is not overscan, because it only happens on Fox widescreen productions.

Seems to me that if I adjusted for overscan, it would alter the view of all HD, when the only issue is with Fox.

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone...
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post #7 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 06:26 PM
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I assure you that the FOX logo does not go off the active picture area. Overscan is an artifact of a bygone era when receivers had unregulated power supplies and drifted considerably. To protect against information running off the screen on overscanned sets, broadcasters observed a "safe area". All text and graphics were kept inside the safe area.

Old habits are hard to break and many manufacturers still adjust their sets to include a considerable amount of overscan for no apparent reason. FOX has decided that the safe area is no longer necessary and that is why the logo is allowed to venture so close to the edge of the screen. You may consider it an overscan detector. If you can't see the whole logo, you can't see the whole picture, not just on FOX but on every station.
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post #8 of 20 Old 04-24-2002, 08:39 PM
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I have a Mitsubishi 55807 HDTV. I have tested my overscan many times with the Avia DVD & I do not have a problem with it nor do I have too much overscan. In fact, as it relates to this logo topic, I have slightly less % overscan on the right side where the FOX logo is than on the left side so if anything, I should see more of the logo & beyond. That said, on MANY occasions while watching Fox programming (some of which is 4:3, some is their strange 14X9 zoomed job they do in Cleveland, as well as some being 24 & Boston Public in 16X9), I've noticed that the FOX logo is sometimes as much as 1/3 off my screen & cut off. At other times, watching the same exact show, the logo is 100% visible with none covered. It's something I've noted many times in the past & have been baffled as to what they are doing. Again, sometimes it's perfectly fine, sometimes not.

So, I can't tell ya what happens in other cities or if someone elses TV has an overscan problem, but I can tell you that my TV's overscan is set just fine & I've seen just what hgsmith saw; the Fox logo is sometimes but not always clipped off the side. I also wanted to mention that during the times when the logo is clipped, it doesn't seem that the picture is worse or is zoomed. It might be, but I didn't notice any degradation (you mean their PQ could be worse??!! ;) )

-Todd
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post #9 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the response. I feel a little better that it is most likely not an equipment problem. I will also clarify that the image is actually very good despite the zoom. I seems to me to be more of a "cropped" image than your typically zoomed image - where there is a degradation of the picture quality.

I am going to watch "Empire Strikes Back" tonight with my daughter. Hopefully, most of the intended picture will actually fit on my screen !!
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post #10 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 12:19 PM
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Yeah, many people notice that FOX's logo is shifted too far to the right on the Network stuff compared to most any other broadcaster.

It's actually a running gag that the FO that most people simply see on those feeds is FOX's subliminal message to us about their concern towards HD. ;)

I dont know why it would be so hard for them to shift it over some. ABC, CBS, NBC and others all have virtually perfect placement on the H/DTV side comparitively. At least at my house.

I'm not saying who's doing it right and who's doing it wrong. It just is what it is.

Dan

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post #11 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 12:24 PM
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I was just thinkin' that considering my rear-projection TV and any possible burn-in, the perfect placement of those logo's would be 100% off the screen. HA!! Maybe fox is on to something & just needs to close the deal!! :D

-T
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post #12 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 03:41 PM
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I just got my Explorer 3100HD box from Time Warner in Austin, and I have noticed that all standard (analog and digital) video is slightly zoomed with the component video connection. I assume it is an artifact of the upconversion. I have not examined video using the s-video or composite video outputs.

Video on HBO HD and Showtime HD is not zoomed.

It is VERY noticable when you flip between analog cable on antenna "b" and the component input, with the same channels on analog cable and the 3100HD box.

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post #13 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 03:48 PM
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That is probably unique to the 3100HD box maybe? I haven't noticed that on my 6000 when I've watched standard def stuff through the component inputs. I try not to watch that way anyway because I don't like the soft look it gives.

-Todd
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post #14 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 04:55 PM
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But even the 6000 does have kind of a quirk like that doesnt it? Insofar as when watching SD stuff in HD mode via component, the black bars on the sides are alot narrower than if you switch it to SD mode and s-video.

Dan

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post #15 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 07:10 PM
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I'm confused by what you mean because if you switch to Svid, the 6000 only has standard mode so it's the TV that formats & adds bars (gray in my Mitusbishi's case) which watching the same show in HD mode, the bars are put there by the 6000 not the TV. So really you have two different devices creating the side bars in each instance. I do see what you mean in that when my Mits. puts the gray bars on the side, they are noticably fatter than when the 6000 puts them there in HD mode. But it's hard to compare since it isn't the same device creating them.

-T
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 08:23 PM
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Still though, even when it's the 6000 creating the bars it's not doing it quite right. If it was, the size of the bars would be the same in either case right? My other HD receiver, the Mits SR-HD5 has "normal" sized bars even when watching 4x3 stuff upconverted by the STB to 1080i and sent out via component.

If the picture height of a given source/image is x high and the aspect ratio is 4x3 in either case, shouldnt the width of the image be equal? So why is the 4x3 image in the 6000's case when in HD mode taking up more screen real estate?

I've always noticed it, but never really gave it any thought.

Dan

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post #17 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 08:37 PM
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I wonder why it does that. Is it stretching it or zooming it & losing the top/bottom? I can't tell really but you are totally right; the visable picture is about 1 inch bigger on each side. I never noticed it because I dislike watching upconverted SD through the DTV input as it looks too soft for me! Heck, Dish looks soft anyway so that just makes it worse. I had a DTC-100 last year which a nightmare for formating, but I never watched it that way either cause it made the picture so soft. I wonder if it did the same thing? Prob. not. It's funny that that HD cable box does the same thing as the 6000!

We'll just stick to good old svid for sd huh?!! :)

-Todd
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post #18 of 20 Old 04-25-2002, 08:58 PM
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I was just comparing the same OTA analog channel on the 2 boxes and what the 6000 is doing in HD mode is not stretching or zooming, but actually showing a little bit of extra picture info on the sides to account for the image being wider.

I agree with you about the upconversion being soft regardless. Besides, it never let me feel like I was getting my moneys worth out of a widescreen set because when I'd switch to a true HD channel I wasnt getting as much extra width over the 4x3 channel as one would expect since the 4x3 channel was extra wide to begin with. ;)

Dan

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post #19 of 20 Old 04-26-2002, 07:11 AM
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On my Mits 65857, I keep 5% overscan on all four sides.

FOX-DT 480p/16:9 material always has the FOX logo about half off the screen.

This is normal. If you want to see the whole thing, you'll have to get into the service menu and eliminate all of your overscan (which most people do not recommend).
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post #20 of 20 Old 04-27-2002, 12:32 PM
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i have the zoomed in problem as well using a TWC SA2000HD. Via the component outs the digital and analog station are clearly zoomed in. As for the HD channels they do are zoomed in. I've compared CBS OTA via a DTC-100 with CBS via the SA2000HD and the picture is cropped with the SA2000HD.
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