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post #301 of 6617 Old 03-17-2003, 09:27 AM
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My last few attempts at watching HDTV have been quite disappointing. Last night, about halfway through Boomtown I lost the HD signal (TWC/WKEF). I suspect WKEF is to blame, but can anyone confirm this?

Also, even when I was getting a signal, it would cut out for a second periodically throughout the show (only a few times, but annoying) -- can any of you OTA'ers confirm the source of the problem being WKEF?
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post #302 of 6617 Old 03-17-2003, 01:28 PM
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acs,

I only tuned to WKEF-DT for a "HD check" for short periods a couple of times last night after 10, so all I can confirm is that When I tuned in I didn't notice any signal problems, and "Boomtown" Wasn't HD and was upconverted SD instead, while Boomtown WAS HD on WLWT-DT NBC Cincinnati. Also last night, "American Dreams" Was HD on WKEF-DT. I'm afraid Alias in HD via WDTN-DT had my complete attention between 9-10pm, so don't know what was going on with other stations during that time period. At 8pm, I did watch quite a bit of American Dreams in HD on WKEF-DT without noticing any problems with the Signal/etc.

I have noticed on earlier occasions that occasionally you'll get a "cut out" via WKEF-DT during HD -- More of a sort of "pause" for a second or so every once in a while, it often seems to happen just after the switch back to HD after local ads have been inserted/etc, or, sometimes seems to just involve the Video(via a "pause") and not the audio. From what I can tell when I've seen this, it doesn't seem to be a signal strength/interference/multipath/etc. issue, which would normally involve low, or very fluctuating readings on our OTA receivers "signal meters", and/or "Green" parts of the screen -- ie/Blockiness/pixelization via breakup/etc.

Also, if I remember correctly, it seems that Leno wasn't HD on WKEF-DT Friday night(at least to begin with), HD was fine from WLWT-DT Cincy. So, it appears they are still "dropping the ball" for what ever reason occasionally, but Still, overall it seems that WKEF-DT has been doing a bit better job with the HD lately.

Hope this helps,

Jeff
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post #303 of 6617 Old 03-18-2003, 08:52 PM
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Is anyone else seeing the "green stuff" and quite frequent short losses of Video from WBDT-DT? (WB Dayton -- 18 or, 26-1 for the "remappers" out there) ... I've actually seen this fairly often since shortly after they signed on.

It doesn't seem like it is a signal/reception problem, as I'm seeing it on both receivers here, and although the audio never drops out, the signal is nice, strong and steady. It kinda "looks like" something is making intermittant contact.

Jeff
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post #304 of 6617 Old 03-22-2003, 09:32 AM
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Did anyone else happen to notice the multiple NCAA games broadcast last night by WHIO? At one time, they had one game on analog 7, a different game on 41-1, and a third game on 41-2 (although the PQ on 41-2 wasn't great). If they must broadcast a subchannel when HD is on, at least they gave us some different content for a change. After awhile, they had the same game on both analog 7 and 41-2, but there was still a different one in HD on 41-1.

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post #305 of 6617 Old 03-22-2003, 10:00 AM
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Yes! Multiple games by the same station!! Awesome! I remember reading about that years ago and was thrilled to finally see it in action!

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post #306 of 6617 Old 04-04-2003, 08:47 AM
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I have had channel 58 programed in my TV since I got it earlier this year. Prior to last night, I only got a blank 58.01 showing up. Last night, there was also a blank 58.02. Perhaps they are getting ready for next month? Anyone have an update on Dayton PBS going HD? Last I heard it was 1 May03.

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post #307 of 6617 Old 04-04-2003, 11:20 AM
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Buckeye,

No sign of WPTD-DT here as of yet ..

3 possibilities I can think of:

1.) You caught them on the air testing (we are close to 5/1)
2.) You're getting a signal off their Exciter, if they have/had it turned on, and the antenna is "hooked up", it can put out a few watts of power w/o the transmitter being on ...
3.) Via Tropo(atmospheric "skip"), you picked up a bit of signal from WJBK-DT 58, Detroit ... This might especially be true If your antenna is aimed "generally" towards the North ... While I haven't had much luck TV Dx'ing the last couple of Days, I have heard reports of good DX coming into our area, originating from just around the frontal boundary that has been hanging just to our north ...

FWIW, I've seen WJBK-DT (Fox Detroit) quite a few times via tropo, and If I recall correctly, last time I saw them late last summer they were in fact, running 2 subchannels, 58-1 and 58-2 ... Attached is a screenshot from when I pulled them in last august from 208 Miles out ....(note, their analog station is on channel 2) ..
LL

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post #308 of 6617 Old 04-07-2003, 01:20 PM
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Just received the following info on ThinkTV/PBS digital's on air date and HD schedule, as well as some interesting comments :

ThinkTV 16 will go digital on May 1st: we'll offer HD M-F 8-11pm and Sat & Sun 6-11pm. Those hours may change slightly to
coincide with start/stop times for programs on our analog channel. 14 will likely go digital by the end of the summer.

It's frustrating when we have to move heaven and earth to make this happen, and yet a limited number will be able to view our
multicasting, and very few people will be able to see the HD broadcasts. I guess it's a case of "if you build it, they will
come," only we don't make anything off the sale of digital sets and receivers.

Jim Wiener
Manager of Program Services

----------------------------------------

I'm looking forward to seeing what we will get from ThinkTV digital!

I can certianly understand his frustration concerning the difficulties faced by broadcasters where DTV as well as HD is concerned. Of course, at times we also have our own frustrations as HD/DTV viewers and purchasers of HD Displays and DTV receivers/etc.

When they do come on the air, I would encourage everyone that receives them(OTA or cable "if available") to send them a note saying "thanks", as well as a signal report and letting them know that a "few people" is more than 3 ....

Here is link to the page on their website with contact info:

http://www.thinktv.org/about/contacts.html

Jeff
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post #309 of 6617 Old 04-08-2003, 08:51 AM
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I'm currently seeing a problem with WKEF-DT, plenty of steady signal as usual(steady 88 readings on a DTC100, 2/3+ readings on a HDV420) , but the receiver won't lock on the signal. I'm also Hearing a Buzz on channel 51 with an analog receiver as well, it is very similar to that which occured on WKEF-DT last fall when they were having a problem with their exciter. I sent a note to their Chief Engineer about this, hopefully, if this time it is an issue they are having, it will be fixed soon.

Was wondering however, is anyone currently receiving WKEF-DT(NBC Dayton) Without problems? Unless the Cableco get's WKEF-DT's signal OTA, I wouldn't think this would affect those who receive WKEF-DT via TWC.

Thanks,

Update: 3pm - Reception is back to normal for WKEF-DT here now, I have full audio/Video back on 51-1 -- However, it's straight 480i SD, no longer an upconvert, and 51-2 is no longer there ...

Jeff
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post #310 of 6617 Old 04-08-2003, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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As of 11:00pm Tuesday, 22-1 (OTA) appears to be SD, with no audio. Looks like they are having problems.
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post #311 of 6617 Old 04-09-2003, 04:42 AM
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I have TWC. When I flipped on the WKEF-HD station last night I had no picture or sound.
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post #312 of 6617 Old 04-09-2003, 10:01 AM
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That may explain why I had no sound on my recording of Cher last night...
I'll have to try another recording today on another channel to see if it's my hardware. I was hoping for HD too, but I wasn't surprised with SD as it wasn't listed as HD in TitanTV.

Dang, a pretty good program too, except way too many commercials, but then again, there are too many commercials everywhere now.
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post #313 of 6617 Old 04-09-2003, 12:38 PM
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SD is back on 51-2 today(So far, at least since 11:30am), still no audio. 51-1 is blank. (FYI, WKEF-DT doesn't seem to remap to 22-x on most receivers, unless it is doing so via DirecTV APG/etc.) Anyhow, as Gindie mentioned, Evidently they are having problems ....

Lameris,

Keep in mind, TitanTV is often wrong concerning their HD listings. For instance, they haven't been listing HD for WKEF-DT for quite a while, while they have for WLWT-DT(NBC Cincinnati). WKEF-DT has had NBC HD "when available", more or less ... Furthermore, TitanTV lists "Bernic Mac" show etc. as HD on WRGT-DT (Fox Dayton) tonight, and yet, as we know Fox Doesn't have HD, and also, WRGT-DT doesn't do Fox Widescreen --- At least, not so far ... While, at the same time, TitanTV does not show "HD" or, Fox widescreen for such programming on WXIX-DT(Fox Cincinnati), and Yet, WXIX-DT DOES offer Fox Widescreen ....

Probably the best source of HD programming info can be found in AVSforum's "HDTV programming section" ...

Jeff
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post #314 of 6617 Old 04-09-2003, 01:31 PM
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Nitewatchman

Thanks for the HD info. I'm still trying to get reliable SD or HD signals. Even though I am in 45415, just off of main street, I have trouble receiving many channels. Next the neighbor says I can use her old rooftop antenna, so when the weather improves, it's take it down and see if that works any better.

My OTA works great in analog and I've been wondering why the Digital reception is so poor.

Lameris
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post #315 of 6617 Old 04-09-2003, 06:05 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by lameris
My OTA works great in analog and I've been wondering why the Digital reception is so poor.

Paul210 might be able to help out a little more, as I think he is pretty close to you and getting good results from all the Dayton, and most of the Cincinnati Digitals.

But, I'll give it a shot in case Paul's busy .... Quite a bit of this stuff applies to any receiving location in our area anyway ... It's Hard to say, there are LOTS of variables and possibilities. Off the top of my head, Follows are a few of the general issues involed, one, or a combination of factors which may be a factor(s) in you're specific circumstance:

1.)For the most part, in Dayton, the analog stations are on vastly different frequencies than their digital counterparts, and currently, the power output from the Dayton digitals aren't "really" all that equivilent to their analog counterparts. WDTN-DT 50/WKEF-DT 51 are in the Hi-UHF band, frequenices which normally especially require a lot of power to get out well, and also, frequencies on which signals are more easily attenuated by things such as walls, nearby buildings, trees/leaves/etc, in the Signal paths/etc .... WHIO-DT 41 is "sort of" "up there as well" ... The good news on this is, all the Dayton stations should be sending a good amount of signal your way, currently, per the directional radiation patterns of WHIO-DT/WRGT-DT(the others use non-directional transmitting antennas), and your quite close to the towers.

2.) For the most part, The transmitting antennas for the digital stations are a bit lower on the towers than is the case with the analog stations. Still, they are up there nice and high, but in the right "circumstances" it could make a difference. Looking on a topo map, I don't see any significant terrain differences in the area you mentioned, and since you're relatively close to the towers it should take quite a bit of terrain blockage to be a problem ... Still, if you're at the bottom of the wrong side of a steep enough hill(or other obstruction) that lies in the direction of the transmitting towers, it's possible I suppose.

3.)Multipath can especially sometimes be a problem when you're fairly close to the towers and have obstructions in, or near the signal paths -- However, If you're getting "crystal clear" reception of the Dayton analog stations(no ghosting), I'd say it is doubtful that multipath is a significant issue for you.

4.) Interference issues - Just one example, A very nearby, strong RF source, such as FM Radio Transmitter can cause interference problems, which may not be apparent on the frequencies the analog stations are using, but may be on the frequencies the digital stations are using. FCC is usually pretty good about minimizing these sorts of things though in a given area, and USUALLY, Harmonics from FM transmitters are mostly an issue on VHF High band(channels 7-13) ... However, interference from other sources can especially be an issue if you are using a preamp(or amplified antenna/etc), as these things are very broadband, and a strong signal on just about any frequency that overloads it can cause "interference" problems .... BTW, an amplified antenna or preamp for your receiving location probably isn't a great idea, as at your distance, as even strong signals from the Dayton TV stations can completely overload your preamp/tuner and spread "noise" all over other TV channels, including the ones with the Dayton stations .... Also, "Indoors" and amplified antennas usually don't mix, since Electrical noise(EMP/Impulse noise)+ other sources of RFI which can affect VHF/UHF (PC monitors/PC's/etc)indoors can be a problem ...

4a). Adjacent Channel issues/receiver selectivity issues -- Which should be less of an issue for digital than analog --- However --- Factors such as non-co located transmitting facilities, located in the same city/general area (such as WDTN-DT 50/WKEF-DT 51), and/or operating with vastly different power output could potentially make it difficult for example, for some receivers to effectively "tune in", say, a weaker signal on channel 50 due to a much, much stronger signal on channel 51. Currently WKEF-DT/WKEF-DT are operating from roughly equivelent power and antenna height, and their Full power allocations from FCC seem to be optimized to reduce this potential problem, so hopefully it won't be a problem to any great extent. This "effect" may make it difficult however from your location to tune in both WRGT-DT 30 Fox Dayton, and WXIX-DT 29, Fox Cincy.
-----------------------

Just wondering, but what sort of antenna are you currently using?

I think the best thing to do to improve TV/DTV reception(Generally, this should improve signal strength+reduce multipath) is to use a Directional antenna of a proven, conventional design(Yagi/Bowtie) mounted outdoors as high as is reasonably possible, away from obstructions(terrain/buildings/trees/etc) as much as possible and aimed towards the broadcasting towers.

Even when placing your antenna outdoors, it's still a very good idea to test the placement of the antenna before mounting it "permanently", as there can be "dead spots" for any given station(which can be caused by poor signal strength, multipath, or even interference problems) even outside ... Finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna which allows for good reception Is allways a good idea, whether the antenna is outdoors or indoors, although, usually finding a "sweet spot" is much more difficult indoors ... Also, While a good preamp would most likely help you with the Cincinnati stations, It most likely isn't a good idea for the Dayton stations(because of the "overload" problems mentioned above) since you're so close, and would almost need to aim right through the Dayton towers in order to aim your antenna towards Cincinnati ....

A good directional "outdoor" antenna may work indoors for you as well, but, putting your antenna indoors at the very least(in most circumstances) will reduce signal by 15-20db or so(that's a lot!), as well as increase multipath difficulties. Still, from your distance unless you have a signficant signal obstruction issue, I would think it is at least somewhat possible that a indoor antenna would work for you for the digital stations, although certian construction materials can act as especailly good signal absorbers, or reflectors, which is something you do not want.

Except for some types of insulated glass which cause signal problems, in many cases, probably the best place to put an indoor antenna would be near a Window facing the Transmitting towers(South, more or less in your case). The attic might work well also.

Just some ideas in case they help, there is plenty of excellent info on Antennas and improving reception throughout AVSforum, including earlier in this thread, as well as in the Cincinnati threads which may be useful to you.

----------------------------------

Except for Low power analog station WWRD-LP 55, which is in the Bellbrook/Centerville area, The Dayton TV Towers are all Near Rt 4 and Gettysburg ave., on the Hill between I-75 and RT 4. I'm sure you've seen them ... They are about 8-10 Miles or so to the SSE(Almost South) of intersection of I-70 and SR48. "Generally", the Digital transmitting antennas in Dayton are around 1800~2000 feet or so Above Sea Level(approx 900~1000FT Above average terrain), which gives the Dayton Digital stations roughly the same Maximum coverage area as is the case with the analog stations ... 55-65 Miles or so, which is the case for most of the Cincinnati Stations as well. The "reachable" Cincy Towers would be Roughly SSW of your location, between about 47~53 Miles -- Of course, In a fringe area, one would generally need a fairly decent, Hi-gain outdoor antenna setup, and no significant terrain issues/etc.....

Here, I experience pretty much the opposite from what you seem to be getting. Being down in a Valley and in the "middle of the woods" as I am, It takes a antenna(with quite precise aiming) on a 35' tower in order for me to get good analog reception from most stations, free of ghosting/snow/"noise"/etc, and yet I can get most of the Cincy(27~39 miles) and Dayton Digital Stations(12-14 Miles) with a simple, $2 UHF bowtie or VHF rabbit ears(VHF antenna required for WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincy) placed near a 2nd story window which faces the direction of the transmitting towers(2 different windows, one to the NE for Dayton, one to the S for Cincy) ... I also can induce severe ghosting(multipath) on the analog stations by rotating my quite directional(outdoor) antenna way, way off target, while at the same off target heading, good reception of the digital counterpart of the station involved is not affected.

Furthermore, The only digital station I can receive with a good enough signal via a settop antenna on the 1st floor, in the middle of the house and through 3 walls is WRGT-DT 30. I can receive no "decent"(I.e. Watchable, "fairly" ghostfree/snowfree/noisefree/etc.) analog signals from the settop indoor antenna location. From the "near the window facing the towers" locations, while I can get "watchable" quality from some of the high power analogs, It looks much, much better with the outdoor setup ... Of course, The digitals I can receive from indoors look just as good either way, although surely reception is better and probably more "dropout prone" with the outdoor antenna setup(I get no dropouts with it really, Don't know about the indoor setup as I just tried it for experiment sake, but I didn't get any for the few hours of experimentation from the stations I was receiving) .... Just a little example of how important it is to find a "sweet spot" for reception to place your antenna in ....

Probably more than you wanted to hear. Of course, experimentation is key and YMMV .... For example, while a preamp wouldn't seem to be a good idea for your location, you just never know, it might help more than it hurts .... Hope some of this helps and good luck,

Jeff
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post #316 of 6617 Old 04-09-2003, 07:08 PM
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WKEF-DT presently has HD for L&O at 10pm on 51-1(with audio!), West Wing was as normal, an upconvert ....

Audio still missing on 51-2, not that we need it, or the SD video on 51-2 either for that matter ....

Jeff
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post #317 of 6617 Old 04-10-2003, 01:26 PM
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USA HD just showed up on channel 700. Limited programming but the Masters tournament will be shown. (Yeah)

Tuned in today and had Masters coverage, definitely HD, beautiful picture but the game was rained out today.

Way to go, TWC!
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post #318 of 6617 Old 04-11-2003, 11:54 AM
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OTA Wise, Master's coverage in HD Today via WKRC-DT (CBS Cincinnati) .... WHIO-DT, CBS Dayton has the normal CBS soap opera fare, SD currently .....

Update 4pm: WHIO-DT has switched to HD masters on 41-1 at sometime in the last hour ... I see Noticable compression artifacts during fast focus/fast Camera pans, as expected for HDVideo when a station is multicasting ... Sigh ...HD, HD from HD Video especially and Multicasting/Datacasting don't mix, perhaps one of these days they'll figure this out .... I've Seen the difference, via WLWT-DT (NBC Cincinnati) which does not Multicast(during HD Olympics), and from WCET-DT (PBS Cincy) back when they weren't multicasting(they do multicast now, unfortuently ....)

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post #319 of 6617 Old 04-14-2003, 05:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by toshman
USA HD just showed up on channel 700. Limited programming but the Masters tournament will be shown. (Yeah)

Tuned in today and had Masters coverage, definitely HD, beautiful picture but the game was rained out today.

Way to go, TWC!

It disappeared as of today -- not to complain, there wasn't really a programming on it. Where is CBS and ABC, TWC?
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post #320 of 6617 Old 04-14-2003, 06:14 PM
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Wow! Thank you Jeff for your response. Personally, I think it is my antenna, a small bowtie.

Now I plan on trying out a neighbors unused antenna and maybe their rotator too if it still works.
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post #321 of 6617 Old 04-14-2003, 08:34 PM
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Lameris,

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Acs and all,

Well, at least it seems WKEF-DT has been good about providing NBC HD as of late, at least when I've looked ... When I checked they even had "Crossing Jordan" in HD tonight, and that's one they used to miss quite often ...

A little over 2 weeks to PBS HD via WPTD-DT 58! Also, WCET-DT (PBS)Cincinnati should be increasing power soon, and those of you who get the other(or most of the other) Cincinnati stations should have a very good shot at it when they increase power ..

Jeff
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post #322 of 6617 Old 04-17-2003, 10:19 AM
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Does anyone have a map that shows the exact locations of all the Dayton area TV (and other) antennas and their functions? I know where the WHIO and WGRT/WKEF antennas are at the Gettysburg/Germantown area, but what are all those other antennas for in the area? Also, if WHIO is over there, what is the large antenna at their studio location (on Wilmington) used for? Just curious!

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post #323 of 6617 Old 04-17-2003, 11:09 AM
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Buckeye,

You can find info on FCC site which lists the lat/long coordinates of the Towers used for the corresponding transmitters/etc ... Here is where you can go to run a query for info on the TV/DTV Stations(To get all the info, Choose "Detailed Info+CDBS Links"):

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

There are AM/FM queries on FCC site as well ... Takes a little more digging to find the info on STL links/etc, but they are on there somewhere as well ...

This site also I beleive lists the coordinates for the towers:

http://100kwatts.tmi.net/listings.html

There are of course also towers used by FAA, towers for microwave communincations, towers for emergency communications/etc/etc/etc., "Ham" VHF/UHF repeaters also often use space on TV/Radio towers for their antennas .... Near Centerville, there is(or was) even a Ham "TV station"(W8BI ATV Repeater) on a "shorter tower" which some viewers may be able see occasionally by switching their TV to "cable mode" and (while hooked up to an antenna) tune to (I think it is) Cable channel 57 or 58 and see some activity ...(Besides HAM TV stations, One thing they used to do is retransmit NASA TV during Shuttle missions ...) Haven't seen, or looked for them in a while though, so not sure how active this Amateur TV(NTSC) "station" is these days ...

As for WHIO's Wilmington pike, tower ..... Not sure what they use it for, But according to FCC info, Both WHIO 7, and the DTV station on 41 broadcast from the tower near Rt 4(germantown Rd)/Gettysburg area ...

Attached is a map showing the location of the Dayton/Springfield area TV/DTV towers, As according to FCC info --- These show "everything" except for WWRD-LP 55's current tower location, which according to FCC CDBS info is About 1 Mile South of Indian Ripple Rd, and about 1 Mile East of I-675, and W47BC(TBN Translator) Springfield, whose tower is Just NW of Springfield along SR 41 -- Note: WWRD-LP has a permit to move to channel 32, as well as to near the location of the other Dayton TV towers ... The one farthest south on this map (Whose labels might be hard to read) also includes the location of WRCX-LP 40's current Construction permit from FCC, as well as the facilities for W66AQ, a one time Translator for what is now WB 64 Cincinnati, but, which once was a Over the Air Subscription TV service known as "ONTV" .... It's been a long time since I've seen W66AQ, I'm not sure that they are still on the air ... WBDT's tower(previously WDPX, and previously WTJC 26) Was Just Southwest of Springfield, but, they moved to the location of the others just a couple of years ago ...

Oh, BTW, the red and blue lines to the towers are plots for distance/elevation profiles from my place, just disregard those ...
LL

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post #324 of 6617 Old 04-17-2003, 12:12 PM
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Jeff - As usual, you a great source of information!! Thank you! The map you attached clears up alot for me.

For those folks following along at home, this map will help situate things, along with the map you posted (see attached)

And here is a nifty view from space. If you zoom in, you can even see the antenna's shadows! (in fact it is easier, when zoomed in, to spot the shadows than it is the antennas themselves).

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com...=2749&z=16&w=2

From this view (when zooming in), I can find all the antennas on your map, and then some. Also, switch between Aerial Photo and Topo Map to get more info.
LL

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Quote:


Originally posted by buckeye1010
Also, if WHIO is over there, what is the large antenna at their studio location (on Wilmington) used for? Just curious!

I don't know for sure, and you've probably already researched it, but I always thought the tower on Wilmington was the WHIO radio tower.

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Buckeye,

I didn't think about Terraserver, that's pretty cool! Looks like USGS needs to update their Info a little though, as The Topo Quad(from 1988) still has the WDTN tower labelled as WLWD (WLW-Dayton ----- Once part of the Crosley "empire" ... Became WDTN sometime in the late 70's or early 80's ...)

Paul,

I think you are are correct concerning WHIO Radio Tower, where WHIO 1290 AM is Concerned ....What is now WHKO FM 99.1 Looks to be on or near the WHIO TV tower, however ... Looked it up in the FCC AM database(looked real quick though, so I didn't get too specific as to it's location), and that looks right ... Also, According to FCC Info on WHIO-AM, It looks like there should be 3 Towers WHIO-AM uses, at night in order to achieve their directional pattern they operate with after sunset (They use 1 tower, and a non-directional pattern in the Dayttime) ...

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As I recall, back in the stone ages we had to build crystal radios in school. I'm sure that may conjure up memories for the rest of you old guys. What we made was very basic without a tuner, so you just received whatever was closest to you. I lived on Patterson Rd. and I could get WHIO gangbusters, as well as WING, usually both at the same time. That's how I figured that their radio tower was on Wilmington. Talk about a blast from the past...

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post #328 of 6617 Old 04-18-2003, 06:12 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Paul210
As I recall, back in the stone ages we had to build crystal radios in school. Talk about a blast from the past...

Paul

Wow, I forgot about doing that! Did you ever get that huge tower built? Imagine what you could receive hooking the old crystal set to the tower!

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Just for grins, I decided to find the WWRD-LP antenna on terraserver, based upon 1Mi S of Indian Ripple, 1 Mi E of 675. I think I found it:

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com...21977&z=16&w=2

If you zoom out (click on the minus sign on the left) about 3 times, you'll see I.R. and 675.

Since my field trip out to the antenna farms last week, I can now view and identify almost all the OTA antennas that I pick up, looking out my northern window. They are all about 10 miles, line of site. The giveaway reference is the triangular-shaped top of WGRT's antenna - it sort of looks like a cell phone antenna, but much taller. I can pick that one out all around town.

As for crystal radios - you don't need to be (that) old to remember them! I'm 42, and I've build over a dozen of them, including one using a rusty razor blade as the crystal. Does anyone remember the 'rocket radios' - either the old ones or the new repros?

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post #330 of 6617 Old 04-24-2003, 11:25 AM
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Buckeye,

Sounds like you have as much fun with this stuff as I do

... Some of the following is quite a bit off topic for DTV I suppose, but it is fun to talk about!

Well, I'm only 36 but I had a crystal radio too ... I had more fun putting together my 1st Ham Radio though, a Heathkit HW-16 HF transceiver. It actually worked quite well and I used it for 100's of CW(morse code) Contacts before "moving up" to a pair of Drake Twins (Drake BTW, has made some of the finest radios ever made from their location which used to be in Miamisburg ...) I still use a Old Drake 2-A and my old Drake Twins(R4-A and TX4C) every now and then ...

I'd have to dig for them and I'm not sure I recall what I have left as I've cleared out most of the old radio stuff and parts and such to make room for newer "junk", but I also have several older, small(for Tube radios they are small) "consumer type" AM radios in the garage from the 30's and 40's. A few years ago, I repaired a early 1930's Zenith(AM and Shortwave, even still had "Police Band" markings where the 80 Meter Ham band now is) which was built into a wall at a friend's house, the only thing it needed was a capacitor(luckily, I had something "close enough" lying in the garage) and a new "string" which allowed the dial to move the tuner ...

-----------------

I wish I had WWRD-LP's tower in my backyard! Per FCC site, It's exact coordinates are:

39 40 48 N
84 4 56 W

It looks like it is "about" a 300FT tower, Converted from the metric system, the Transmitting antenna is 291FT above ground, 1296FT Above sea level ...

I've noticed as of late that they've switched from their previous mostly "all shopping" format to carrying programming from World Harvest Television(mostly religious) --- I noticed the other day that Between 4pm and 6 on weekdays now however, they have "Lassie", "The Lone Ranger" and "The Rifeman" if you're "into" nostalgic TV ... I found a programming Schedule for World Harvest Television here:

http://titantvguide.titantv.com/apg/...p?callsign=wht

I have noticed lately that the audio from WWRD-LP often has quite a buzz in it, as well as being at a VERY low level ... So, if you watch this station, don't forget to turn down the volume before switching channels
--------------------------

Concerning the WRGT tower with the crossmembers and 3 masts on top, I'm not sure how new the tower itself is, but I think the "top piece" with all the masts is relatively new. I don't recall seeing the 3 masts on top prior to a couple of years ago. According to FCC site, 5 stations actually use that tower: WRGT, WRGT-DT, WKEF-DT, WBDT and WBDT-DT ... All of their transmitting antennas being on, or near the top, hence the 3 masts.

----------------------------
On the one hand, it is certianly a good thing to have all(except for WWRD-LP currently, and W47BC Springfield) the TV towers in a market/city in one spot, since it makes for "easy" antenna aiming -- However, the downside of this is, should "disaster"(i.e. Tornado) strike over near Rt 4 and Gettysburg to an extent which brings down some, or many of the towers, It might be a LONG time before the Dayton TV stations could get back on the air, since It will probably be quite difficult to find Tower Space unless new towers are built ...

---------------

One thing about "line of sight", "RF Line of sight" and Optical line of sight are 2 different things, as in reality, RF Line of sight equates to a longer distance which is a bit "beyond" the curvature of the Earth(and moreso to a small extent the lower the frequency used), due to the "physics" of Signal Propagation on VHF/UHF, as Signals are allways refracted(I.e. bent towards the Earth's surface) to some extent by the medium(air) they travel through ... There is an excellent explanation of this "space wave", or "RF line of sight" VHF/UHF propagation mode in the "Signal Propagation" section at the following site, other modes of more long distance propagation are also well-described here(BTW, Lots of other great stuff in the other sections of this site as well) :

http://www.dxfm.com/

I can see none of the Towers from my location down in a valley here(12-14 Miles from the "main" Dayton towers), although there are higher spots nearby from which I can see them. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think I can remember when the "new" WKEF tower went up, it was the first one to have the white, flashing "strobe like" lights on it ...

--------------------------

Although there is still a little fudge factor involved since obstacles and the height of the receiving antenna is also a factor(as is transmit power/Transmitting antenna's radiation pattern), I use the following formula(and info from the FCC site on antenna height/etc.) to figure out MAX RF Line of sight distances for the local stations :

Square Root of Transmitting antennas Height in feet ABOVE SEA LEVEL(NOT above ground, or Height above average terrain) X 1.415 = Maximum RF line of sight distance(I.e. Coverage area) In Miles.

Due to their Transmitting antenna heights, Most of the Dayton and Cincinnati(analog and digitals) stations have a max coverage area/RF line of sight distance of around 55-60 Miles or so, and most folks with a high gain antenna setup at that distance(or a little farther, especially the VHF's) should be able to receive them. Since most of the Dayton/Cincinnati Towers are about 42-44 Miles apart, this puts about everyone(except those with "serious enough" terrain blockage issues) Between I-70 and the Ohio River "in range" of most of BOTH the Dayton and Cincinnati stations.

W47BC in Springfield is the weakest signal I see here on UHF at "all times", It's tower is 39 Miles from my location, and they "spurt out" a measly 5.8 KW analog ERP(The "equivenlent DTV ERP would be about 1.2 KW ERP) ... While I also see WAVE 3 Lousiville(95 Miles), and the Columbus stations on 4+6(78 Miles) at all times, WAVE 3 has a extremely tall tower, and their Low-VHF frequencies let their signals "bend" a little farther beyond the curvature of the Earth ...

One thing I like about the Low-Power analog stations in Dayton and Cincinnati is, they give me a good idea of how well my antenna setup is working, without the need to have to "wait for" conditions conducive to Dx'ing ..

----------------------------

Jeff
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