Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 183 - AVS Forum
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post #5461 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 01:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Yep same here on WHIO-DT, especially when the CBS dudes get excited

Same with the Bengals game...
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post #5462 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranston View Post

b) Why can't TW swing a deal to put WLWT (or even WLIO) back on? Is that a network argument? If it were a network argument, why wouldn't it be in the network's best interest to have its national content carried (as it really doesn't have a lot to say regarding local content)? At some point, of course, the network went from WKEF to WDTN ... would this network directive / agreement still be in force with a different local provider?

It's a network agreement issue. WDTN owns the rights for NBC in the Dayton DMA. No other network can provide NBC to the Dayton DMA unless WDTN agrees (e.g. if you have heard of satellite viewers trying to get waivers...although this is very rare for an affilliate to do -- it's not in their best interest)


Quote:


I'm still living off no HD. I dumped my Rakesh.H/Cablecard package about 18 months ago, and really haven't looked back; this after TW waged one of their many "screw up the cablecard so the guy will buy a box" campaigns. Kinda waiting for Uverse.

Why not get HD for free OTA??

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #5463 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Same with the Bengals game...

Yes, re: audio issue on WHIO. Seems ok on WKRC though although CBS does an awful job with mixing sound (and WKRC only broadcasting in stereo doesn't help).

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #5464 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 02:37 PM
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Personally, I couldn't care less about not having WDTN on Time Warner. Since Time Warner didn't carry WDTN in HD, I never watched it anyway. For the past year or so, when there was something actually on NBC that I wanted to watch (ie. Football), I pull out my rabbit ears and watch WLIO in HD.

Now if it were Fox, CBS, or ABC, that would be another matter, for me. I'm can't pick up any of those stations OTA. I could probably live with out CBS or ABC. But not having Fox would cause me to jump ship.
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post #5465 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Not sure how this "derails" channel 2. If anything it derails Time Warner.

WDTN is the one making such a big deal out of it though. Why can't they be happy with their viewers picking them up via OTA vs from Time Warner ? Fact is, WDTN needs Time Warner considering what, just over 60% of their viewers get their channel from TW. I know many will argue that TW needs WDTN too, and they do, but not as much.
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post #5466 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Won't be seen?? That is only true if you assume that everyone watches TV via cable and has no other options...

That is the typical assumption that way too many people make.
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post #5467 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 03:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hall View Post

WDTN is the one making such a big deal out of it though. Why can't they be happy with their viewers picking them up via OTA vs from Time Warner ? Fact is, WDTN needs Time Warner considering what, just over 60% of their viewers get their channel from TW. I know many will argue that TW needs WDTN too, and they do, but not as much.

Make no mistake...TW needs WDTN in Dayton MUCH MORE than WDTN needs TW...
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post #5468 of 6613 Old 10-05-2008, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mlbUC View Post

It appears that October 22nd is the day that all the Dayton locals go live on DirecTV.


Or later this week..........

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/con...ssetId=3620002
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post #5469 of 6613 Old 10-06-2008, 07:39 AM
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I am ready to ditch cable TV. I will be moving to an apartment in Bellbrook, OH (45305) outside of Dayton. All the broadcast towers are around 10 miles from my location. Not sure of rules on an outside antenna, will an indoor one work to pickup all the channels?

I pick up a RS 15-1868 indoor antenna and i tried it out at a friends house that is also less than 10 miles from the towers and could not get any UHF channels. I will be getting a DTV converter box soon to test it further. Anything special you have to do to get UHF channels?

Thanks for any help
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post #5470 of 6613 Old 10-06-2008, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkinswoody View Post

Or later this week..........

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/con...ssetId=3620002

That says October 2008, not October 8th.
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post #5471 of 6613 Old 10-06-2008, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutex View Post

I am ready to ditch cable TV. I will be moving to an apartment in Bellbrook, OH (45305) outside of Dayton. All the broadcast towers are around 10 miles from my location. Not sure of rules on an outside antenna, will an indoor one work to pickup all the channels?

I pick up a RS 15-1868 indoor antenna and i tried it out at a friends house that is also less than 10 miles from the towers and could not get any UHF channels. I will be getting a DTV converter box soon to test it further. Anything special you have to do to get UHF channels?

Thanks for any help

The results at your place could be very different, even though you are both 10 miles away. Get the antenna as high as possible, and near a window facing the towers if possible. You might try a silver sensor model instead as the antenna you have is just a simple uhf loop covered in "fancy" looking plastic.

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PM-HDTV1-Silver-Sensor-Antenna/dp/B00022O9VM

If you have a balcony or an easy place to mount, a double bowtie might work better for you as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1

Both of these antennas are designed for UHF, so any VHF channels you'd want to receive may be difficult. However, currently and all plans indicate that Dayton digitals will all be on UHF. Of course that could change, and if you are at all interested in Cincinnati digitals, WCPO is currently on VHF and WKRC will be on VHF in February.

You may have very good luck with an indoor antenna properly aimed and near a window facing the towers. All I'd ask is that you keep in mind that broadcast TV was designed to be received with outdoor, rooftop directional antennas. Oftentimes being close to the towers makes indoor antennas work satisfactorily, but if it doesn't or is not reliable for all the channels you may need to consider an outdoor mount. If you are not allowed an outdoor mount, then you'll have to make do with what you can do.

Also, if you do have a balcony or patio that is for your exclusive use, you ARE allowed to mount an outdoor antenna there. FCC rules override any landlord or homeowner association. You can see more about this here:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #5472 of 6613 Old 10-06-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cranston View Post

1) For as long as I've lived in South Dayton, we've had Dayton and Cincinnati CBS, ABC, and Fox carried on TW. For awhile until maybe the mid 90s, I *think* we also had WLWT (Cincinnati NBC) station. Then WLWT was removed, but the remainder of the Cincinnati channels were kept.
a) Am I misremembering history? If so, why was WLWT dumped? If not, why didn't they carry WLWT, but carried the rest?

b) Why can't TW swing a deal to put WLWT (or even WLIO) back on? Is that a network argument?

See :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post14789319

Like I said in that post, the issues involved in situations like these are sometimes complicated, and specific to each station involved ...

Regarding *some* of the possible issues involved, read through/study FCC rules(CFR sec. 76.*) regarding MVPD(including cable) Carriage of Broadcast signals(Subpart D), Significantly viewed Signals(also in Subpart D), and Network Non-duplication Protection, Syndicated Exclusivity and Sports Blackout (Subpart F), current versions available at following link :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2008/76

There is *way* too much that would need to be quoted from those rules which may be specific to how, say, WLWT could *potentially* be carried by TW in some areas South Dayton ... For instance, for Warren County(say, springboro), WLWT is on Warren County "significanty" viewed list, currently ... For Montgomery County, it is not, but 76.54 details how it *could* potentially be added, if enough people in Montgomery Co. watch it OTA with an antenna and a proper survey were done .... Also, Sec. 76.59 details how communities can be included within multiple DMA's (i.e. "overlapping market areas") .... There were also changes in rules/etc. involved since(and during) the 90's, and for instance, in 2000 from using ADI to define a stations market area to DMA ....

Update: Also, I would stress, it would still primarly be an issue between Network(or other programming provider)/affiliate, and the stations involved ... WLWT could be on the "significantly viewed" list for instance, but WLWT would have to WANT/seek carriage in the specific community involved ....
:end update

Here is 76.93 in its entirety :

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFR 47, Sec. 76.93 View Post

Sec. 76.93 Parties entitled to network non-duplication protection.

Television broadcast station licensees shall be entitled to exercise
non-duplication rights pursuant to Sec. 76.92 in accordance with the contractual provisions of the network-affiliate agreement.

Sec 76.92 in its entirety follows (note: It's better to look at it via the "link" as the formatting will likely be "off") :

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFR 47, Sec 76.92 View Post

Sec. 76.92 Cable network non-duplication; extent of protection.

(a) Upon receiving notification pursuant to Sec. 76.94, a cable community unit located in whole or in part within the geographic zone for a network
program, the network non-duplication rights to which are held by a
commercial television station licensed by the Commission, shall not carry
that program as broadcast by any other television signal, except as
otherwise provided below.

(b) For purposes of this section, the order of nonduplication priority of
television signals carried by a community unit is as follows:

(1) First, all television broadcast stations within whose specified zone the
community of the community unit is located, in whole or in part;

(2) Second, all smaller market television broadcast stations within whose
secondary zone the community of the community unit is located, in whole or
in part.

(c) For purposes of this section, all noncommercial educational television
broadcast stations licensed to a community located in whole or in part
within a major television market as specified in Sec. 76.51 shall be treated in
the same manner as a major market commercial television broadcast station,
and all noncommercial educational television broadcast stations not licensed
to a community located in whole or in part within a major television market
shall be treated in the same manner as a smaller market television broadcast
station.

(d) Any community unit operating in a community to which a 100-watt or
higher power translator is located within the predicted Grade B signal
contour of the television broadcast station that the translator station
retransmits, and which translator is carried by the community unit shall,
upon request of such translator station licensee or permittee, delete the
duplicating network programming of any television broadcast station whose
reference point (See Sec. 76.53) is more than 88.5 km (55 miles) from the
community of the community unit.

(e) Any community unit which operates in a community located in whole or in
part within the secondary zone of a smaller market television broadcast
station is not required to delete the duplicating network programming of any
major market television broadcast station whose reference point (See Sec. 76.53)
is also within 88.5 km (55 miles) of the community of the community unit.

(f) A community unit is not required to delete the duplicating network
programming of any television broadcast station which is significantly
viewed in the cable television community pursuant to Sec. 76.54.

(g) A community unit is not required to delete the duplicating network
programming of any qualified NCE television broadcast station that is
carried in fulfillment of the cable television system's mandatory signal
carriage obligations, pursuant to Sec. 76.56.

Note: With respect to network programming, the geographic zone within which
the television station is entitled to enforce network non-duplication
protection and priority of shall be that geographic area agreed upon between
the network and the television station. In no event shall such rights exceed
the area within which the television station may acquire broadcast
territorial exclusivity rights as defined in Sec. 73.658(m) of this Chapter,
except that small market television stations shall be entitled to a
secondary protection zone of 32.2 additional kilometers (20 additional
miles). To the extent rights are obtained for any hyphenated market named in
Sec. 76.51, such rights shall not exceed those permitted under Sec. 73.658(m) of
this Chapter for each named community in that market.

AS for 76.92 (f), and the "Significantly viewed list", Currently :

For Montgomery County, The following stations are currently on FCC's Significantly viewed list :

Montgomery
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WPTD, 16, Dayton, OH (formerly WKTR)
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH

Butler County :

Butler
WLWT, 5, Cincinnati, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
WXIX-TV, 19, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
+WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH

Warren County :

WLWT, 5, Cincinnati, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
WXIX-TV, 19, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH

Quote:


2) This smacks of an "I really don't want to start that sort of precedent" case.

As has already been mentioned, It's well known that many broadcasters have been sucessfully negotiating for retransmission consent fees recently, Including, fairly recently involving Sinclair deal with TWC ... Note Sinclair Owns WKEF/Operates WRGT ....

Quote:


Does anyone have a ballpark estimate of how much WHIO, WRGT, and WKEF pays, if any, to TW?

This question and many others you asked in your post and the answers you're looking for involve private agreements between the parties involved (Net/affiliate agreement, agreement for cable carriage between cableco+broadcaster/etc), and involve details which are usually kept private .......

Jeff
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post #5473 of 6613 Old 10-07-2008, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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My parents just got HD from TW (DVR not wanted). TW gave me a Pioneer 3510HD. The issues I'm having are that the HD channels are showing up with wide horizontal letterbox bars on their HDTV. When I switched the HD box to "Stretch", the HD channels look OK, but the non-HD ones are stretched.

I'm trying to find a combination of settings on the box and/or the TV that will fill the screen for HD programs (as expected) and have side boxes on non-HD.

By the way, is there any manual for this box? I have had no luck finding anything on the web. I stumbled on the fact that I needed to press "Settings" on the remote to get anything done.
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post #5474 of 6613 Old 10-08-2008, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gindie View Post

My parents just got HD from TW (DVR not wanted). TW gave me a Pioneer 3510HD. The issues I'm having are that the HD channels are showing up with wide horizontal letterbox bars on their HDTV. When I switched the HD box to "Stretch", the HD channels look OK, but the non-HD ones are stretched.

I'm trying to find a combination of settings on the box and/or the TV that will fill the screen for HD programs (as expected) and have side boxes on non-HD.

By the way, is there any manual for this box? I have had no luck finding anything on the web. I stumbled on the fact that I needed to press "Settings" on the remote to get anything done.

It sounds like you have your box set to 4:3. Make sure it is 16:9, you should be able to have the box set to Normal and not stretch and 16:9 content will fill your screen and 4:3 SD content will have bars on the sides.

Now if you are viewing a channel that is in HD, but is showing a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie then you will see black bars on the top and bottom, but if you flip through all your HD channels you should see some that fill the screen...

I don't have this box (or TWC for that matter), so I can't give you any further information, but it sounds like this might be the issue...

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post #5475 of 6613 Old 10-08-2008, 05:25 AM
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Before Time Warner developed their own software for their set-tops, previously they used Pioneer's Passport software, there was a setting that you told the box what to do automatically depending on the format/resolution of the channel. For example, if it detects a 16:9 signal (and you have a 16:9 TV), you tell it to do nothing basically. If it detects a 4:3 signal, you can tell it to leave it alone, stretch it, zoom it, etc. There was also a setting where you told it the format of your TV, i.e. 4:3 or 16:9.

Did they remove/lose these settings in their home-grown software ? With the old software, after hitting the "Settings" button, there was a 2nd-level menu that you accessed by hitting "A" for "More settings".
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post #5476 of 6613 Old 10-08-2008, 05:26 AM
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Here is a thread regarding TW's set-top software:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830
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post #5477 of 6613 Old 10-08-2008, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutex View Post

I am ready to ditch cable TV. I will be moving to an apartment in Bellbrook, OH (45305) outside of Dayton. All the broadcast towers are around 10 miles from my location. Not sure of rules on an outside antenna, will an indoor one work to pickup all the channels?

I pick up a RS 15-1868 indoor antenna and i tried it out at a friends house that is also less than 10 miles from the towers and could not get any UHF channels. I will be getting a DTV converter box soon to test it further. Anything special you have to do to get UHF channels?

Thanks for any help

Mutex, for what it's worth, I'm just down the road from you in Clayton. I have two TVs with Silver Sensor (UHF-only) antennas sitting in south-facing windows in a single story house. I pick up all the Dayton AND Cincinnati UHF stations on CECBs. Everyone's results vary by location but I would think the Dayton stations should be no problem for you.

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post #5478 of 6613 Old 10-08-2008, 02:45 PM
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Did they remove/lose these settings in their home-grown software ?

No, all those options are still there. Although, the one issue I've had since they moved to the new software-- I tell my box to stretch the 4:3 analog channels-- after viewing an HD channel then flipping to the analogs, the analogs stay in 4:3 until I surf down to the 40's then suddenly ALL the 4:3 channels strech to 16:9 like I have it set up. It always worked perfectly with the old software. Any one else notice this?
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post #5479 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader View Post

the 4:3 channels strech to 16:9 like I have it set up.

Not sure about your problem but 4:3 channels should not be stretched...

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #5480 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader View Post

No, all those options are still there. Although, the one issue I've had since they moved to the new software-- I tell my box to stretch the 4:3 analog channels-- after viewing an HD channel then flipping to the analogs, the analogs stay in 4:3 until I surf down to the 40's then suddenly ALL the 4:3 channels strech to 16:9 like I have it set up. It always worked perfectly with the old software. Any one else notice this?

I noticed this bug at my parent's house who have TWC, the way I found to fix it is to have every resolution selected (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). Doing this is annoying because when you switch between channels that are broadcast in different resolutions, there is a delay while the output rez. is changed. But it should solve any aspect ratio issues...

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post #5481 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Not sure about your problem but 4:3 channels should not be stretched...

I don't think "should not" is the proper wording. While you may not like stretching 4:3 content (neither do I), some people prefer it this way. If 4:3 material shouldn't be stretched no 16:9 TV or set top box manufacturer would have options to do this, but they all do.

It comes down to personal preference.

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post #5482 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs View Post

I don't think "should not" is the proper wording. While you may not like stretching 4:3 content (neither do I), some people prefer it this way. If 4:3 material shouldn't be stretched no 16:9 TV or set top box manufacturer would have options to do this, but they all do.

It comes down to personal preference.

Based on what you just said I think "should not" was exactly the correct wording. Stretching content/screwing up the aspect ratio of video content is an absolute no-no. Just because some people do it anyway doesn't make it OK. I can't stop them from doing so, but I can tell them it's not correct.

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #5483 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Stretching content/screwing up the aspect ratio of video content is an absolute no-no. Just because some people do it anyway doesn't make it OK. I can't stop them from doing so, but I can tell them it's not correct.

For the record, I do NOT stretch 4:3 content.

That said, I don't tell others what to do. I don't tell them it's "wrong" or "an absolute no-no". If they want to, they can. To some, having the bars on the left/right is absolutely wrong or something's broken. I will say, my 6-year old daughter will zoom 4:3 content to fill our 16:9 set, which is better than stretching ! Even she says "it makes people fat".
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post #5484 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 07:50 AM
 
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Only if you use the wrong zoom...I am fortnate that my CRT HD RPTV has one of the industries best...if not the best...stretch modes available and people look anything but short and fat when on the proper setting...

For the record I DO 'stretch' 4:3 content...Well at least standard cable I do...HD DVD player I do not stretch SD DVD...I let it as it is...That said I have very few 4:3 SD DVDs...
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post #5485 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Not sure about your problem but 4:3 channels should not be stretched...

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Stretching content/screwing up the aspect ratio of video content is an absolute no-no. Just because some people do it anyway doesn't make it OK. I can't stop them from doing so, but I can tell them it's not correct.

Thanks for the lesson. Hold on a second while I grab that six-pack...

Anyway, on a less snarky note, while I generally agree with you and I don't stretch any 4:3 movie I happen to watch, I have no problem stretching standard analog cable. For the type of programming I do watch on standard cable, stretching isn't a big deal IMHO.

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I noticed this bug at my parent's house who have TWC, the way I found to fix it is to have every resolution selected (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). Doing this is annoying because when you switch between channels that are broadcast in different resolutions, there is a delay while the output rez. is changed. But it should solve any aspect ratio issues...

Thanks. I tried selecting all the output resolutions a while back, but the delay while the output resolution was changed was too annoying.
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post #5486 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for everybody who replied to my TW question, but I have some additional questions. Keep in mind that they have the new Mystro software.

How do I tell it to do different actions for different types of programs? When I press "Settings" on the remote and choose "Aspect Ratio", I only get 3 choices Normal, Zoom, and Stretch. I don't know how to say "If the program is 16:9, do nothing. Or, if the program is 4:3, then..."

I did see a guide on the net that described some front panel button sequences where you can tell the box what aspect of TV you have, but it was written for the previous software and it doesn't appear to work when I try it.

Also, I don't know how to pick the output resolutions like browerjs said he did for his folks.

Any additional help would be greatly appreciated!
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post #5487 of 6613 Old 10-09-2008, 08:25 PM
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How do I tell it to do different actions for different types of programs? When I press "Settings" on the remote and choose "Aspect Ratio", I only get 3 choices Normal, Zoom, and Stretch. I don't know how to say "If the program is 16:9, do nothing. Or, if the program is 4:3, then..."

The aspect ratio setting will not affect the HD channels. They are locked. The aspect ratio setting is for the non-HD channels only.
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post #5488 of 6613 Old 10-10-2008, 04:42 AM
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Thanks. I tried selecting all the output resolutions a while back, but the delay while the output resolution was changed was too annoying.

Unfortunately, this is the only way around this bug... There is also another bug it fixes where when you come out of the guide the video stays in the same place and at the same size as it was when you were in the guide... Although I couldn't figure out how to reproduce this on a regular basis...

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post #5489 of 6613 Old 10-10-2008, 05:44 AM
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I did see a guide on the net that described some front panel button sequences where you can tell the box what aspect of TV you have, but it was written for the previous software and it doesn't appear to work when I try it.

That is actually for SARA software, something very few Time Warner customers ever had on their boxes and certainly none in the Dayton area. They've been Passport and Mystro for years.

Vader said the options I described are still there. Many of us no longer have Time Warner so we're of limited help with this... You still have them, with a set-top, so start pushing buttons.
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post #5490 of 6613 Old 10-10-2008, 01:39 PM
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I did see a guide on the net that described some front panel button sequences where you can tell the box what aspect of TV you have

I don't know about front panel buttons, but just hit the "settings" button and from there you can change the display characteristics.
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