Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV - Page 26 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #751 of 6617 Old 02-12-2004, 09:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
That's good news! Is the antenna you are using a directional antenna, and if so, in which direction is it aimed, presently?

I think you've got the idea about "Ghosting/Multipath(which may be 1 problem, you might be having a combination of issues/factors causing difficulty) , but here's the rundown+what you can do about it ....

Ghosting on analogs is caused by multipath ... Multipath is caused by "portions" of the signal arriving at slightly different times at your antenna, as portions of the signal are being recieved on slightly different paths. .. Obstructions in the signal path(s) between transmitting+receiving antenna which are also conductors are a cause of multipath. More on this below, but non-directional antennas, or directional antennas which aren't aimed in the proper direction are the most common issues involved which cause, or increase multipath/ghosting problems. There are other things that can increase, or even "induce" multipath problems as well, I'll touch on SOME of these other causes in a bit, but here's another one real quick --- trying to hook up, say 2 UHF antennas aimed in different directions onto the same feedline also "induces" mulitpath -- Since the antennas would likely be "out of phase", signals will very likely fall on one antenna at slightly different times than the other antenna, therefore "inducing" multipath ....

Anything that's in between the tower+your antenna, and in or near the signal path can be a multipath issue(especially if it's nearby -- such as electrical wiring in your attic/your roof/etc if your antenna is in the attic), although usually terrain+trees and such usually just absorb a very small bit of signal rather than reflect it ... a bit of an exception can happen(especially on higher UHF channels perhaps) when wind blows the trees/leaves around, creating a bit of dynamic multipath, which can especially be an issue if signal is weak(which shouldn't be a problem for you) ..... A highly directional antenna that works well at higher UHF frequencies can be good in these sorts of circumstances ...

Tall Buildings(especially if you are completely surrounded by tall buildings), water towers and the like can be a particular problem, although I wouldn't think that would be an issue for you --- These things cause what are called "static multipath", wheras aircraft/etc. flying through the signal path can cause "dynamic multipath", for which the ghosting would appear "fluttery" on analogs when a plane flies through the signal path.

Anyhow, when multipath is a problem, The same thing actually happens with the signals with digital as with "ghosting" on analogs, ... but since you're not seeing the actual "signal" on screen with DTV, you can't see it as ghosting ... The meter bouncing up and down can be a sign of multipath(among many other things, as mentioned earlier). DTV receivers have a equalizer, which (without going into detail) can "handle" quite a bit of that multipath issue , but there is only so much it can do ....

So, IF the antenna(which I am just assuming is a directional antenna) is NOT Aimed at the transmitting towers, then this also induces multipath(ghosting) ..usually of the severe kind if antenna is aimed too much off target ... So, you need to make sure the antenna is aimed at the Towers for the stations you want to receive ...That's probably where you want to start ...

From your location, seems like you should be even able to actually see those towers(They should appear in a line from S To north, and are just on the Hill across I-75 from you) but if not, the Dayton towers are pretty much directly West of you, Cincinnati towers would be roughly South-southwest.

Usually, you'll want to aim the antenna right at the tower, but Sometimes the best results may even occur if the antenna is aimed a little off target from the towers, and the best thing to do is to monitor reception while aiming the antenna for best results ... Using the analogs to find the best spot to aim your antenna, by reducing the ghosting on the analog signals to a minimum can be of benefit as well. Having a helper with a 2 way radio, or actually carrying a small TV on the roof can help you out here ... You can't obviously take the DTV receiver with you in this case

Also, if the antenna isn't hooked up "properly", or has pieces falling off of it or has detiorated because of age(probably not a problem unless it's REALLY old) and isn't working properly, it can greatly increase the multipath problem ....

Besides proper antenna aiming+having your antenna outdoors in a spot "free of nearby obstructions, other important ways to combat multipath is to use an antenna with more directivity(a directional antenna basically "rejects" portions of signals being received in other directions besides the one it's pointed), and also, finding a "sweet spot" to place the antenna can be benificial -- For the most part trees shouldn't be a problem, but you wouldn't want to have the antenna aimed right into a Large tree that's very close to the antenna+in the same direction as towers ... You also probably wouldn't want to aim right into a water tower, or part of your roof/etc ...

Also, as mentioned earlier, multipath is often quite frequency specific -- so you might have multipath on channel 2+7, but none on any UHF channel, although, I suspect you have multipath issues on all the stations, VHF+UHF becuase your antenna isn't aimed properly, or is "falling apart", or is not a directional model or wasn't designed for TV ....

Also, if the antenna is a VHF only(Ch 2-13/FM or ham/scanner/etc) antenna, it isn't designed to work with UHF(TV ch. 14~69), and that would increase multipath on UHF as well. Having the proper "load", or impedance match for The feedline/tuner to be matched to the antenna's impedance is also an important factor, otherwise, the entire feedline+antenna just becomes a "Random wire" antenna which also isn't going to help with multipath.

ALL of the Dayton DTV stations are on UHF, currently. When you see "2-1" for WDTN-DT, the station really isn't transmitting on channel 2, it's just being "remapped" via PSIP(data) info sent by the station, just so it will "show up" on your screen as being right next to the analog station .... In the future, after analog TV shuts off, many stations will move their digitals back to VHF, but for now, the only area stations on VHF are WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati, WSYX-DT 13 Columbus, and WLIO-DT 8 Lima. These are the actual channels the Dayton stations transmit on:

WBDT-DT 18 (remap to 26-x)
WRGT-DT 30 (doesn't remap on most receivers)
WHIO-DT 41 (Doesn't remap on most receivers)
WDTN-DT 50 (remap to 2-x)
WKEF-DT 51 (doesn't remap on most receivers)
WPTD-DT 58 (remap to 16-x)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So --- especially If you're getting some pretty bad ghosting(or poor reception) on the Dayton UHF analogs (16,22,26,40,45) too, you can expect the digital stations would be having the same issue .... "snow" in the signal means your not getting enough signal(maybe because the antenna isn't working on UHF very well, or something in the line *+is not passing though UHF signals from the antenna -- The latter which would be likely if this is a problem, as at your distance a coat hanger should work to get enough signal ...

So ... Fix the antenna aiming(or get a "better" directional New antenna - you're old one may be still working fine though), make sure your connections are good and there isn't anything in the feedline that shouldn't be there, get all the "ghosts" and/or any snow out of the analogs, and if this still doesn't fix reception --- the "too much signal" thing STILL might be another issue you're having --- If so, pad the signals by adding add'l atteunation in the feedline ...

One thing good about the Dayton stations is, they are ALL transmitting from the same antenna farm(except WWRD-LP 55 analog, W47BC analog) -- So you don't have to aim your antenna towards different spots ...

Also --- For Dayton digital(HD) stations, since they are all on UHF currently(and for many more years likely) you could use a smaller, UHF only antenna instead of a larger VHF/UHF antenna -- as close as you are, a UHF antenna would probably work well enough for Dayton VHF too, althoough 2+7 probably won't look so great ... Something like the CM4221 Bowtie antenna might be a good choice, although you really won't need any "gain" from your antenna for Dayton ... Something like the CM4221 would also probably work well for you with the cincinnati stations, there's even a chance you might be able to aim something like a CM4221 "in between" the Dayton+Cincinnati towers and get stations from BOTH cities(except WCP0-DT(ABC) Cincy on VHF), but it's probably more likely you would have to aim the antenna differently (west for dayton, SSW for Cincy) for each city for best results ... seperate antennas on seperate feedlines, or a rotor would be optimal if you want both Dayton/Cincinnati DTV/HD stations ... You can think about that "later on" though ....

Sorry for the length of some of these, hope it helps ...

update:

Oh ... I forgot to mention .. If you're getting all the Cincinnati NTSC(analog) stations on the bedroom TV(5,9,12,19,25,38,48,54,61,64 - 25,38,54+61 are Low power or from low transmitting antennas, and probably are real snowy if you see them at all, 14+43 are in oxford, you may be seeing those too) w/o a lot of snow or ghosting(maybe the antenna is aimed somewhat towards Cincinnati if you're getting the analogs fairly well), you should be able to get the Cincinnati digital/(most with HD/Fox Widescreen) stations on the Hitatchi as well ... But, you would probably either have to :

1. Do a new Channel Scan for ATSC(DTV, most with HD) stations it can find which it can receive off your outdoor antenna(from the direction it is aimed, if it's a directional antenna) ...

2. Punch in the actual channels the Cincy DTV station are transmitting on --- manually -- Those channels are:
10, 24(In KY, this one might be "too far"), 29 (Not on air all the time), 31, 33, 34(on air 8am-11pm), 35

29,31,34+35 and probably 10 as well should be pretty easy to receive from your location ... See first post of Cincinnati thread for more info on the Cincinnati DTV/HD stations/PSIP remapping info/etc.

Also Some DBS/OTA receivers also require you to punch in the "zip code" for the DMA you're in to be able to receive those channels, I doubt if that's an issue for your reciever, but who knows ... If it is, you'd probably have to punch in a Cincinnati area zip code, or some such thing to let you even see the Cincinnati stations ...

-------------------------------

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #752 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 05:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
browerjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posts: 1,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Well i bought a SIR-T151 on ebay, and now just have to wait for it to get here and hope i can get reception with an el-cheapo, "nice" looking antenna (so the wife doesn't kill me ) So basically the first thing i should try is an indoor UHF antenna from radioshack? Like one of these: http://www.radioshack.com/category.a...1%5F000&Page=1 (which one would be the best)
Also this may be a dumb question but if i were to go the attic antenna route are there any "wireless" antennas. I don't know how i'd run the wire from my attic to where my TV is...

XBL GT: DMBFiredancer
browerjs is offline  
post #753 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 08:36 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 272
jbh613

One thing to remember when doing the moving-the-antenna-around-the-room thing is to pause about 15 - 30 seconds in each new location. With analog, you can just wave the aluminum around in the air until the picture looks good. With digital, the receiver has to lock on, then decode the information and produce a picture. In that amount of time, you may have given up and moved on.

I still say your best choice is going to be a small UHF-only antenna placed somewhere near the set. If you do try the rabbit ears, again, collapse the telescoping parts (if any) until they're only 6 inches or so long.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #754 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 08:42 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
So basically the first thing i should try is an indoor UHF antenna from radioshack? Also this may be a dumb question but if i were to go the attic antenna route are there any "wireless" antennas. I don't know how i'd run the wire from my attic to where my TV is...

Well, we could probably create a passive reflector in your attic, but it would cause more trouble than good. If you have a return air plenum, that's a handy route for coax. Mine runs down from that to the unfinished basement, then to wherever it needs to go.

The double-bow-tie antenna is one of the favorites for ATSC. And if your 151 is like mine, it'll work with nearly anything you hook to it.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #755 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 09:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
On jbh613's situation -- I agree with Doc that the indoor antenna for the Dayton stations should work -- If not rabbit ears, then one of the antennas mentioned in the replies concerning Browerjs's antenna below. The antenna in your attic might work too, if you can take the amps OUT alltogether ....

Getting the "ghosts" out of the NTSC UHF(analog UHF stations)with an indoor antenna might be useful as well ... I'd still use the Outdoor antenna though, maybe for Cincinnati if not for Dayton. The outdoor setup Should work for Dayton too+should alleviate any need(you may not have to though) to "mess around with the rabbit ears" to find the best spot for to different stations, but again, since he's so close might need to add some(or a lot) of atteunation in the feedline .... The Dayton towers may be a little spread out for him since he's so close, so a "too directional" antenna might not be as good as something like the CM4221 - 4 Bay bowtie.

Browerjs,

The antenna Doc is referring to as the double bow tie is shown on that page as the "UHF Dual HDTV Indoor Antenna" - $14.99 - Cat # 930-0998 -- It would be the best antenna shown on that page. There's no such thing as a "HDTV antenna", BTW, don't know why they started calling it that(marketing I imagine). Do a search on AVS for double Bow tie or DBT for more info on it.. Many have had excellent results with it. The antenna on Pg. 2 - Cat 15-234 (I see it's went up to $3.49) might work for you too ... This is a simple, UHF folded dipole(wire in the shape of a bowtie), which I've used here as an indoor antenna with good results as explained in one of my above posts. The "Silver Sensor"(not at radio shack I don't believe -- Best Buy had them at one time) is another good indoor, UHF antenna. You can find a lot of info on it on AVS, too. Antennas that look like scuptures, or are very expensive, such as Terk Indoor models are about as useful as a coat hanger, if that -- Not saying they can't work, sometimes they do.

The antennas mentioned above are UHF-only antennas, all the Dayton Digital(HD) stations are on UHF, currently, so you shouldn't need a VHF/UHF antenna unless you want to receive analog stations. You can use a VHF/UHF joiner to combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas(indoor or outdoor) onto the same feedline if you want to add VHF reception later. An outdoor antenna would be a good idea if you want to try for Cincinnati or Columbus ...

I believe the antennas mentioned above(except the Silver sensor, which I believe already has a 75Ohm connection on it) come with a short piece of 300Ohm twinlead, so for these antennas, to cut down on potential interference problems, It would be better to put a balun(Matching transformer 300Ohm-75ohm - such as RS # 15-1230 : http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1230 ) as close to antenna as possible, and run RG-6 Coax to your TV from there.

No, there aren't any antennas which are wireless between the receiver and the antenna. The wireless part is between the transmitter+the reciever ...

Typically, one runs Coax inside walls to get the feedline down from the attic, or from outside, or anything that will work, such as the return-air plenum Doc mentioned. A spot near a window which faces the towers is often going to be a better spot to put the antenna rather than in the attic, another spot near your display(or say in a closet/ or on a shelf/etc) might work well also. You might be able to find a good spot the antenna works well in Close to the Display. Keeping the feedline as short as possible can be benifical as well(to cut down on signal losses), but shouldn't be too much of a problem for you unless you have a long run to attic. It is a good idea to have a little extra feedline to start off with, so you can move the antenna around to find a good spot to put it in which provides good reception ...

Update: Oh yes ... If you're going to put an antenna in the attic, the DBT or Silver sensor might not be a bad choice, but --- You might as well use a higher-gain(bigger+better than indoor models in other words), directional OUTDOOR antenna in the attic ... If you want a VHF/UHF combo, go with the biggest thing that will fit+still be able to be aimed towards the towers, a CM4221 or CM4228 multibay bowtie would be good choices for UHF. This place carries a number of different antennas:

http://www.solidsignal.com/

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #756 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 10:14 AM
Member
 
UD#1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Dayton
Posts: 57
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I may as well add my antenna experience.

I purchased a CM4228 antenna mentioned above by Jeff and installed in attic knowing I would loose some signal strength (purchased from
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Ant...master_ant.htm
The cable runs down 2 floors to my RCA ATSC11 OTA receiver which is digital only. I was not interested in the analog stations and thought ATSC only may have better luck rejecting NTSC signals from interfering with reception.
I moved the antenna around in the attic talking to my wife watching the signal strength on various stations downstairs using a walkie talkie. (Fun experience when both are trying to talk at same time.) I got it where I received all Dayton stations and most Cinci except 48 and occasionally 19. Then 41-1 WHIO-DT started dropping off depending on the day. Wide signal variation. Jeff's post above explains why. I then added a CM4221 on same mast in attic pointed more towards Dayton towers and Dayton signals where solid. (See this site for more info on antenna stacking)
http://remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mbo...hread.cgi?1720
Now 48 and 19 in Cinci was almost a lock. I got greedy and pointed my 4221 almost to Cinci like my 4228. I now received all stations solid. UNTIL day before superbowl, 41-1 WHIO-HD was again having large signal variation, so I moved 4221 back toward Dayton towers. 48 and 19 are iffy. I will play with positioning again when I have time to try and avoid a rotor. I live near Stroop and Overland about one mile from you jbh613.
Also, since the CM4228 is large (almost 40 inch square) and I have only a 22 inch attic opening, I had to remove 2 rivets and reassemble with 2 screws and nuts after getting the 2 pieces into attic.

Nitewatchman, I again also appreciated your past advice.
UD#1 is offline  
post #757 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 10:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
browerjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posts: 1,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Sorry if i'm asking stupid questions, but i've never not used cable for tv reception in my life, so i'm kinda clueless on antenna's... With that said... do all antennas simply have a coax connector on them and then you just run the coax from there to the ATSC input on the STB? Also if i were to buy a VHF/UHF antenna and fed it into the ATSC input i would be able to receive the dayton analog stations as well??? My TV is actually positioned right in front of the cold air intake in my house, so i can probably easily run the coax from the attic down, through it, so i'm thinking my best bet may be to just purchase an antenna that would receive all analog and digital Dayton and Cincy stations... Also if i get a VHF/UHF i could test the antenna out for positioning before my box gets delivered, by running it to the NTSC input? If i do this and am able to receive cincy analog stations 5,9,12,19, will i also be able to get the digital signals?

XBL GT: DMBFiredancer
browerjs is offline  
post #758 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 11:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
UD #1, Thanks for the report, very interesting. Some comments on your post:

Quote:
Originally posted by UD#1
I was not interested in the analog stations and thought ATSC only may have better luck rejecting NTSC signals from interfering with reception.

All ATSC receivers(even if they are in a "box" that does NTSC reception too) have a filter(or should have anyway) in them to "notch out" the NTSC Video/audio+color burst carriers that may be present as "co-channel" interference. However, a box that will do NTSC+ATSC will often lock onto a weak NTSC signal+put the receiver into "NTSC" mode, instead of looking at any ATSC signal that might be on that channel. The RCA DTC-100 is one of these, and the only way to get it to "look for" a ATSC signal on that specific channel again is to do another channel scan, with your antenna pointed away from the NTSC station involved. This is usually just a problem when you are "Dx'ing", but it happens to me on channel 10(WBNS 10 analog columbus) any time I aim my "big" antenna towards Columbus ... Just enough of a signal so it locks onto the NTSC signal ... Have to do a channel rescan again+aim antenna somewhat towards Cincinnati to see WCPO-DT 10 again, even though it puts in an excellent signal here ...
PRobably not an issue though if your receiver has seperate NTSC/ATSC antenna inputs(Josh's is the first one I've heard of that is evidently like this.

Of course, you don't likely really need a NTSC tuner in your DTV receiver, since all your TV's will have them anyway. You can use a splitter to run the line into the antenna input on your TV to view/check analog(NTSC) signals. Using+optimizing reception of the analog counterparts to the digital stations you want to receive can be VERY benfifical to work on reception problems, since you can see the problems you are experiencing right on the screen ...


Quote:
Originally posted by UD#1
I then added a CM4221 on same mast in attic pointed more towards Dayton towers and Dayton signals where solid. (See this site for more info on antenna stacking)
http://remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mbo...hread.cgi?1720
Now 48 and 19 in Cinci was almost a lock. I got greedy and pointed my 4221 almost to Cinci like my 4228. I now received all stations solid. UNTIL day before superbowl, 41-1 WHIO-HD was again having large signal variation, so I moved 4221 back toward Dayton towers. 48 and 19 are iffy. I will play with positioning again when I have time to try and avoid a rotor.

Combining 2 antennas onto the same feedline in this manner, being that you are trying to aim them in different directions+also are using different antenna models is most likely going to give you poor results, because the antennas are going to be out of phase. While you can use this sort of setup to "phase out" interference staions/etc(something you shouldn't be having an issue with) the results are very much "hit or miss" at best. This might be why your having problems with WCET-DT 34(remaps to 48-x) and WXIX-DT 29(remaps to 19-x), although, also, getting the antenna outside would probably be the best thing you could do.

This isn't "stacking" antennas. You might get lucky, but basically, using this method of combining 2 antennas on the same feedline is going to cause the two antennas to "interfere" with each other in most cases, and will increase your problems with multipath(ghosting on analogs). The way to do it for antennas aimed in different directions(such as towards Dayton+Cincinnati) is to run Seperate feedlines for Each antenna all the way from the antenna to near your receiver, and then use a A/B switch to switch between the two antennas(you can get a remote controlled A/B switch at radio shack). Or, you can use a rotor, but you'll need to run the rotor control wire anyway, so seperate feedlines+A/B switch would be just as convienient(and less expensive, especially since you already have the antennas!) But, For best results from Cincinnati, Get the antenna outdoors. Also, a full wavelength spacing(for the lowest frequency used) between the antennas on the mast is recommended -- About 3-4feet would be a good idea for spacing of the antennas for UHF TV.

Properly "stacking" antennas is something else --- To properly stack antennas, you must use the SAME Model of antenna, and you must AIM the antennas in the same direction. Also important is that equal lengths of Coax running from a coupler(+feedline) to each antenna must be used. The beneifit to proper stacking of antennas is increased directivity(meaning antenna will reject signals off the side/back better than a single antenna), and gain. It doesn't work to receive stations in differrent directions.
Stacking antennas is also most benifical within a very narrow range of frequencies, much more narrow than even ONE 6MHZ wide TV channel -- For instance, Hams use Stacked array's of yagi's cut for "specific frequencies", not broadband like the TV channels ... That being said, some folks have achieved excellent results stacking antennas for long distance TV reception/Dx'ing/etc, and to cut down on interference problems from co-channel stations with transmitting towers in different directions from the desired station of reception.

Here is an excellent article concerning the proper way to stack antennas, and why you would do it:

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html

Here is some excellent Pictures +information on a beautiful Quad Stack of UHF TV antennas near our area, in Southern Indiana -- This is one of the antenna setups "MAX HD" on AVS forum has used :

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBar...ACK/index.html

Hope this helps,

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #759 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 11:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
Sorry if i'm asking stupid questions

No such thing as stupid questions here!

Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
do all antennas simply have a coax connector on them and then you just run the coax from there to the ATSC input on the STB?


No, most antennas have 300Ohm terminals(screws). As I mentioned above, you need to get a "balun" (matching transformer) to adapt the 300Ohm load of the antenna to the 75 ohm impedance of the Coax+what the tuner needs. Most "outdoor" antennas will come with this balun included. See my above post w/link to the radio shack balun(matching transformer) for what you need, if it isn't included with your antenna. The "balun" will have the necessary connector on it to plug in the Coax(just like what you use for cable).

Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
Also if i were to buy a VHF/UHF antenna and fed it into the ATSC input i would be able to receive the dayton analog stations as well???

Well, no, not exactly. If your receiver(such as the Sammy 151, I believe) is a ATSC only receiver, then ATSC(DTV stations) will be all it can pick up with the receiver. Some receivers(not sure about the sammy 151) have a RF "pass through" jack,(just like VCR's) so the signals off the antenna are passed through,+ you can hook up a TV (all have NTSC receivers in them, unless its just a monitor), or a VCR ETc to the "rf out" jack coming from the STB, and receive the analog signals off the antenna using the NTSC tuner in your TV or VCR.

If your receiver doesn't have a RF jack, then you would use a 2 way splitter before the STB, running one side to the STB and the other side to your desired NTSC receiver(inside TV/VCR/etc).

In other words, it should be easy to run the signal off the antenna into a device that will pick up the analog stations.

Josh's TV, which has both internal ATSC+NTSC tuners evidently has seperate ATSC/NTSC inputs, is the first one I've heard of like that ... He would need to use a splitter before the TV+hook up a line to each input(atsc/ntsc) to get signals off the antenna from both NTSC+ATSC stations into both NTSC/ATSC receivers.

Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs

so i'm thinking my best bet may be to just purchase an antenna that would receive all analog and digital Dayton and Cincy stations...

Different antenna aiming/orientation would likely be needed from your location for getting good results from BOTH the Dayton+Cincinnati stations. In other words, seperate antennas on seperate feedlines, or a rotor(you need the room to be able to rotate the antenna as well) Omni-directional, or multi-directional antennas are not really a good idea .... Also, For Cincinnati(you might have some luck with Columbus stations too from your location, but that's a long shot), you're probably going to need an outdoor antenna, but you might get something from indoors ...

Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
Also if i get a VHF/UHF i could test the antenna out for positioning before my box gets delivered, by running it to the NTSC input? If i do this and am able to receive cincy analog stations 5,9,12,19, will i also be able to get the digital signals?

That's an Excellent idea to test the antenna out with the analogs first! Optimize+get good reception(little snow/ghosting) from the UHF analogs+it's very likely you'll get good reception from the Digitals(ATSC) stations as well.

Chances are if you can get good reception(little snow/ghosting) of the Cincinnati Analog UHF(not VHF) stations, you'll get good reception of the Digitals too. VHF Cincy analogs 5,9,12 won't tell you a whole lot (except maybe for the VHF WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincinnati), but if you can get Cincy UHF analogs 19,48+64 with not a lot of snow or ghosting, your chances to get good reception of the Cincy digitals will be very good ...

update: Also, A preamp wouldn't probably be a good idea for reception of the Dayton stations, but a preamp might help you with Cincinnati or Columbus stations. Mast mount preamps(putting the amp as close to antenna as possibe is a good idea) are often the best way to go. Mast mount preamps receive power through the coax via a power inserter which is placed along the feedline(before any signal splitters) somewhere in your home, as yo ucan't very well plug into A/C on the outside of your roof! I wouldn't worry about the preamp though, don't get one until you've tried it without a preamp, and don't get one unless you need it. A preamp doesn't really "boost signals", it just can help the "noise floor" your receiver sees, as well as make up for losses from long coax runs/signal splitting. IT can also be overloaded from strong signals and cause problems. Getting the antenna outdoors (say for Cincy or Columbus) will work a lot better than a preamp, although a preamp could help you outdoors too ...

Good luck+let us know how it goes ...

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #760 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
browerjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posts: 1,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Thanks for the info, i think i know what i'll need to buy at radio shack now... I'll probably grab an indoor and an outdoor and return whatever doesn't work as well. Really i'm not too concerned with the cincy stations, but i figure if i can receive them for a few extra bucks on an antenna, may as well, but i doubt i'll go as far as getting a rotor...

Quote:
Also, For Cincinnati(you might have some luck with Columbus stations too from your location, but that's a long shot), you're probably going to need an outdoor antenna, but you might get something from indoors ...

when you refer to outdoor antenna here does that also mean an outdoor in an attic?

XBL GT: DMBFiredancer
browerjs is offline  
post #761 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 11:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
No, that means an outdoor antenna used outdoors .... placing the antenna indoors instead of outdoors will attenuate the signal considerably, at the least by 15-20db(that's a lot). Having the antenna indoors also increases the potential for multipath problems. Not to say that it might not work to some extent For Cincy from the Attic -- You might have some luck -- just don't count on it, and don't count on Cincy reception from indoors being easy .... Dayton from indoors from your location should work pretty well though ...

Really, antennas are antennas -- "All designs are a derivitive(sometimes an improvement/sometimes not) of some basic designs, all of which start with a dipole(rabbit ears are a simple dipole) .... "outdoor" just means it won't fall apart outdoors, and it probably won't fit on yourr settop either, indoors just usually means it will fit on your settop, and I don't know of any "indoor" antenna which will match the performance of a good, conventional outdoor model. Generally speaking, "Bigger is better" whether the antenna is mounted indoors or outdoors, as larger antennas can provide more gain, can be more directional(and thus reject multipath better), as well as have more "signal capture area" which is also a good thing.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #762 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 12:54 PM
Senior Member
 
jbh613's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kettering Ohio
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ok, so I am going to best buy tonight to look at one of these
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....4&type=product

Will that help me out?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jbh613 is offline  
post #763 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 01:06 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 272
It should. But keep a receipt and don't tear the box in case it doesn't.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #764 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 02:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
browerjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posts: 1,994
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Well i purchased an amplified indoor VHF/UHF indoor antenna from radio shack this afternoon http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1838
and i was pleasantly pleased with my results... The UHF analog stations come in perfectly with or w/o high gain switched on. Channel 2 and 7 are a little snowy, but not too bad... When i pull out the VHF antennas all the way and point them towards cincy i can hear audio pretty well, but can't see any of the picture for channels 5,9,12... However when i do this for channel 19, i get a somewhat snowy picture, but you can fairly easily make it out, and good audio... 64 is just audio no video thoughI can't wait to see what my results are with the HD Box!!! I have a feeling i'll be able to pick up WXIX-DT though, not sure about the others though

XBL GT: DMBFiredancer
browerjs is offline  
post #765 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 02:24 PM
Senior Member
 
jbh613's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kettering Ohio
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
FINALLY!! I just got back from Best Buy and hooked up the antenna I mentioned above, and ALL Dayton locals work like a champ(~90+)! So I'm happy. I guess the problem was that the vhf/uhf/fm antenna was being "confused" with all the signal strength I get here, so this antenna works great since it blocks all other signals stave the UHF. Thanks to all the wonderful advice here on this forum, I wont disappear now that my problem is solved. You guys are a real help!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jbh613 is offline  
post #766 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 03:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Good news jbh613!

Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
Well i purchased an amplified indoor VHF/UHF indoor antenna from radio shack this afternoon http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...5Fid=15%2D1838

I'm just curious --- what made you decide to purchase that model?

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #767 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 04:07 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Jeff..
WOW.. TWO success stories. You owe yourself a beer!! I'm buying myself a couple, as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
I have a feeling i'll be able to pick up WXIX-DT

Assuming they're on, which they're not, right now. They have a rather odd operating schedule and a transmitter that has more problems than the Jackson family.

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #768 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 04:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
LOL! Yeah, that and WXIX-DT's occasional "weirdscreen" version of Fox Widescreen ....Luckily, they've gotten a lot better at not sending weirdscreen, but A couple of years ago, except for 2002 Superbowl in Fox WS, WXIX-DT sent us "weirdscreen" instead of widescreen for months and months ... Had Doc and I pulling our hair out ...

Another reason why WRGT-DT upgrades was such good news here...

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #769 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 05:01 PM
Senior Member
 
jbh613's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kettering Ohio
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
When exactly is the WRGT-DT upgrade slated to take place?

UPDATE: Hey guys, I just uploaded some photos to the site, check out my work-in-progress and tell me what you think?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jbh613 is offline  
post #770 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 06:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
Paul210's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I think the next party's at your house!

Panny Plasma Junkie: TC-P50VT20, TC-P50G15, TH-42PX60U
Paul210 is offline  
post #771 of 6617 Old 02-13-2004, 07:20 PM
Senior Member
 
jbh613's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kettering Ohio
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You know guys Paul has a good idea. It would be fun for all of us "tech nerds" to get together sometime, unless you guys already do and I'm just in the dark? I would love to pay everyone back for all their helpfull insight.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jbh613 is offline  
post #772 of 6617 Old 02-14-2004, 01:06 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
During Nascar HD today, can't say I couldn't tell a difference at all, but to my eyes it wasn't much of a difference in compression artifacts between WLWT-DT and WKEF-DT ... I even checked it from about 2 feet away from display ...

It just doesn't seem to me that 51-2 is "bothering" the HD as much during bandwidth demanding portions of HD -- at least not as much as looks to be the case with the "extra" stuff from WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT and the Local PBS stations(even when it was just 1 SD sub at WCET-DT/WPTD-DT) .... Maybe the encoder being used/etc. has something to do with it ....

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #773 of 6617 Old 02-14-2004, 05:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Vader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am still getting occasional a/v dropouts from WKEF-DT. Is everyone else getting them too? I don't have this on any of the other high-def channels. It's pretty annoying.
Vader is offline  
post #774 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 12:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Did you see any of the dropouts during the race today so far, and how often "in general" do you see the dropouts happening?

I thought there were a couple today so far, but it turned out to be the display or STB not sync'ing on the right refresh right or something on one setup here+taking a couple seconds to recover(haven't figured out WHAT the deal is with that yet, it happens on this display every now and then on any 1080i HD source), as others watching in another room on another setup didn't see it happen ... so, I haven't seen one of those in a long time from WKEF-DT(might be because I'm not watching or monitoring WKEF-DT when it's happened as of late), and usually when I have seen them, the audio "stays" throughout the dropout, but the video freezes until it's over ... never seen a dropout on 51-2(SD subchannel), or a problem with the signal -- so its not a reception issue here ... Have only seen it on 51-1 during NBC HD feed ...

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #775 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 01:04 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Here's an odd observation. The delay between WLWT and WLWT-DT is almost nil. The delay between WLWT and WKEF-DT is considerably longer.

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #776 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 01:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
That is interesting ... I wasn't paying much attention to it, but I've had a analog TV sitting right next to HD display and tuned to either 22 or 5 at different times today ...

Looks like there might be a problem with sat feed for HD presently ... Just before 4:15pm -- started "breaking up" on both WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT, by 4:19 or so, WLWT-DT is pretty solid, but by 4:24pm, still some loss of screen data on WKEF-DT - To point of screen going blank at times (audio still present) ...

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #777 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 01:32 PM
Member
 
Kerbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sidney, Ohio
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Same thing happening in Sidney on TWC. Even occasionally loss of audio.
Kerbs is offline  
post #778 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 01:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Kerbs --- Yes, same thing OTA, but the audio is mostly there, even when the video goes completely out ...

WLWT-DT still solid between 4:18~4:38pm -- They were only having the same problem as we're seeing with WKEF-DT between 4:15~4:18pm or so ...

Update 2: 4:45~4:53pm - Getting mostly solid HD from WKEF-DT now .. Just noticed a couple short drops to black(audio fine) around 4:48pm ...

Update 3: I wonder if this is a much more significant instance of the non-reception related dropouts we've seen from them(NBC HD feed only) before, and I wonder if perhaps they could be a symptom of a related, or similar cause?

I thinking(and just wildly speculating) that perhaps dish aiming/etc. for the dish used for the NBC HD feed at each station could account for the difference between the extent of the problem today between WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT (and other stations across U.S. as reported on Daytona 500 thread in the programming area)-- but also, there was/is a geomagnetic storm reported to be going on, the current predicted "satellite enviornment" for K/p index shows a spike in the "red" which looks like it could have corresponded to around the time we saw the problems - (This will probably get updated pretty quick+soon won't show what it shows now) :

http://www.n3kl.org/sun/noaa.html

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #779 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 01:58 PM
Member
 
Kerbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sidney, Ohio
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Jeff,
I put ch. 22 on the back-up tv in case the drop out happens at the end of the race! About a 3-5 second delay noticed on WKEF-DT. BTW, solid the past few minutes.
Kerbs is offline  
post #780 of 6617 Old 02-15-2004, 04:18 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,702
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
Liked: 272
Jeff..
As the dropouts also happened during NBC-fed commercials (non local), you've either hit the nail on the head or there's a box in the uplink chain that's having issues.

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off