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post #991 of 6613 Old 04-14-2004, 06:30 PM
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I think you guessed right. It's either 480i or 480p 4x3 ATSC format from WRGT-DT tonight, probably still 480i 4x3. Tonight, "O.C." is 16x9 Fox Widescreen from WXIX-DT Cincinnati, upconverted to 1080i at the station. Fox Widescreen is just "like HD"(fills a 16x9 screen, programming is 16x9 aspect ratio) as far as screen formatting goes from WXIX-DT(when they do it right that is), but of course it doesn't look quite as good as HD since the source programming is Not "IN HD" from Fox.

When WRGT-DT does start passing through Fox Widescreen -- What we will get depends upon what ATSC format WRGT-DT ends up sending us. It could be 16x9 480p ATSC format, or it could be upconverted to 720p or 1080i by WRGT-DT. Either way, the feed they get from Fox, and the "resolution" of the programming is still 480i 16x9 "anamoprhic" -- Just like a "anamorphic" widescreen DVD - until Fox "goes HD" later this year, of course.

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post #992 of 6613 Old 04-14-2004, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
I've never seen FOX WS though so i don't know...

Perhaps this might help ... Attached are a couple of screenshots tonight(taken with digital camera, sorry about quality/focus) .... At top is a frame from "O.C." in Fox Widescreen from WXIX-DT Cincinnati. At bottom is a different frame fro "O.C." in "standard" 4x3 from a few seconds later from WRGT-DT.
LL

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post #993 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 03:27 AM
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Jeff

Thanks for the exciting news about Dayton Fox Widescreen! I haven't been this excited since PBS went on the air (oaky, I'm lying - I have on order an HD Tivo - that makes me pretty excited). Anyhow - I know it's very hard to judge quality by the pictures you posted, but your WRGT-DT screenshot looks pretty hot (and I'm not talking about the girl). The image looks very sharp. For me, when I watch fox, I go back to the NTSC tuner - I think it looks a tad bit better than the DT picture, though I haven't compared it recently. What's your comment on PQ for WRGT DT vs Analog?

keep up the great work!

-Bruce

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post #994 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:44 AM
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Great news, Did you guys see the FOX announcement about the NFL, Lots of HD football coming this fall.


THE BENGALS HAVE A MONDAY NIGHT GAME......
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post #995 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:46 AM
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I'll have to turn the antenna back to the "Dayton/Cincinnati" heading and see what I get tonight. (Haven't sat down to watch any OTA/HD since the NCAA's....) I guess "Tru Calling" is supposed to be Fox WS, right?

Fox is supposed to have a Friday night baseball game in widescreen this week as well.

I sure hope I can get Monday Night Football from someone passing 5.1 this year after WDTN goes to NBC.
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post #996 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by parrot1
Great news, Did you guys see the FOX announcement about the NFL, Lots of HD football coming this fall.


THE BENGALS HAVE A MONDAY NIGHT GAME......

I was gonna try to get tickets to that game, but then i decided it would be pointless, considering i could sit at home and watch the Bengals in HD!!!

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post #997 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 06:56 AM
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post #998 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 08:40 AM
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Just checked out WRGT-DT -- Looks like they are checking things out with different settings perhaps on their aspect ratio converter/encoder/etc. Currently,(11:10~11:30am) They are sending a 16x9 ATSC format(don't know which one, can't tell with my equipment) --- The 4x3 Video currently airing(judge Mathis) is being sent as stretched to 16x9.

They've also thrown up a test pattern a few times in the last few minutes, I'm quite sure it is directly from the Fox Widescreen Feed(RX C), as a engineer from a Fox affiliate in NC has posted it on AVS before. Attached is a screenshot of the test pattern as sent by WRGT-DT a few minutes ago(I took this REALLY fast, so that's why it isn't level and doesn't look too good) :
LL

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post #999 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by buckeye1010
What's your comment on PQ for WRGT DT vs Analog?

I thought prior to last night the video from the digital looked pretty much the same from the analog+the digital - At one time, I do recall thinking the analog looked a tad better, but that might have had more to do with the display I was using+its line doubler/etc(That particular display shows 1080i natively via the internal tuner(DTC-100 basically), 1080i or 480p natively over component inputs -- 720p is upconverted to 1080i by it, EVERYTHING else is converted to 540p for display).

However, I had done a direct comparison a few months ago when sending 480i to monitors which were "native 480i(NTSC SD)"(i.e. POTV's(plain old TV's with composite inputs), and I thought the video from the analog+the DT looked exactly the same.

Last night though, for the first time I thought the video from the DT looked much better than the analog -- as it should, if it is sent as component video via ATSC as opposed to Composite NTSC video via the analog.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1450KHZ
I guess "Tru Calling" is supposed to be Fox WS, right?

Fox is supposed to have a Friday night baseball game in widescreen this week as well.

I sure hope I can get Monday Night Football from someone passing 5.1 this year after WDTN goes to NBC.

Yes, should be. Has been so for on 'XIX-DT. I did notice that Fox is going to have an American Idol "results show" from 8pm-8:30pm tonight, and isn't going to air tru calling until 8:30pm.

I didn't know about the WS game from Fox Tomorrow night, Cool! Yankee's game is listed in my TV guide. I watched World Series in Fox WS last year on WXIX-DT and enjoyed it, although generally speaking to my eyes the Live stuff doesn't end up looking quite as good in Fox WS as the Filmed stuff/etc -- Going to be fun to compare PQ between WXIX+WRGT. Also ---Sounds like we *Might* be getting World Series in HD from Fox this year. NASCAR racing from Fox is of course in WS as well, as is "Fox News Sunday" and so is just about everything else except for the Reality TV stuff, Simpsons/King of the hill and the 70's show ...

------------------

Has anyone heard anything new about ABC in Dayton after the WDTN switch? -- Which looks like it is going to happen in September .... Last I had heard in one of the articles posted earlier in this thread, WKEF was in talks with ABC, but I hadn't heard anything about a agreement.

On the Bengals, good to hear they will have a MNF game this coming season -- I haven't seen them on MNF since a game in Chicago in the Early 90's --- It was a good game which the Bengals won, one of the last with Boomer in as QB ... It was one of the very few "good games" for the Bengals I can recall in the past 12~14 years prior to the last couple of seasons ....

I do recall they were talking about the possibility of a Monday night game this coming year during the season last year on WCPO's "sports of all sorts". They had mentioned MNF had called WCPO and asked for some footage ... A comment was made that MNF hadn't called them about the Bengals in a looooong time ....

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post #1000 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 09:58 AM
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Regarding WRGT-DT picture quality, I had noticed the local syndicated material tended to look better than the Fox network material. Aside from the "crease" across the bottom, it also seemed like there was a little bit of moving hum bars in the video as well, generally visible on darker material on my display.

I had some problems with my own gear and a ground loop, but I had fixed that and still noticed some video noise on WRGT-DT when running Fox programs.
I had also seen some poor picture quality on WKRC-DT during some of the SD games of the NCAA telecasts. This was different...sort of stationary dark bands that would lend a yellowish cast to the wood courts. I didn't see that on WBNS or WHIO.

I'll look tonight and see if they hit widescreen and how it looks versus WXIX. Channel 19-1 usually looks good when sending Fox network, but the local commercials have had some rather poor picture quality (it could be because IIRC they were sending the stretched instead of pillarboxed).

I must say that the efforts of the local staff at WKEF/WRGT are to be commended, given their corporate parent's record with HDTV and DTV. They're making the rest of Sinclair look bad.
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post #1001 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 10:27 AM
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Here's what i don't understand about FOX Widescreen and what i'm going to need to do...

Right now I have my cable box and OTA box to automatically stretch 4:3 480i pictures. Now if WRGT does not upconvert their 480i to 1080i, i'm assuming i'm going to have to tweak with the box settings so the stretching doesn't take place... If it's 480p i assume i'll have to do the same thing???

Also, i'm wondering what will happen on Non HDTV TV sets that have the digital (non HD) cable box... Currently all of the Digital OTA stations that aren't in HD come through on the regular digital box (WRGT and all the non HD PBS stations come in, WHIO and WKEF won't tune in and don't show up in the guide)... I'm wondering if FOX widescreen will show up as letterboxed, if the don't take the channel off of the regular digital box.

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post #1002 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1450kHz
I must say that the efforts of the local staff at WKEF/WRGT are to be commended

Absolutely, I agree. I think Everyone should send them a thank you note or call and say thanks! Sinclair deserves some credit here too though, I think. For instance, they sent them the equipment -- Upconverter, auto-switcher, and encoder for WRGT-DT/etc ....


Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs

Here's what i don't understand about FOX Widescreen and what i'm going to need to do...

Right now I have my cable box and OTA box to automatically stretch 4:3 480i pictures. Now if WRGT does not upconvert their 480i to 1080i, i'm assuming i'm going to have to tweak with the box settings so the stretching doesn't take place... If it's 480p i assume i'll have to do the same thing???

Short answer ... No, you shouldn't have to. Doesn't matter if its 480p, 720p, or 1080i, as long as they are sending a 16x9 ATSC format. Prior to today, WRGT-DT has been sending 480i 4x3 ATSC format, just like the other SD channels(with OTA DTV -- Just like 2-2, 16-2, 26-1/etc) , which is the video signal "formatted"+sent(screen aspect ratio wise) just like analog TV station -- 4x3 ... Starting today(at least currently) WRGT-DT(30-1) is sending a 16x9 signal(could be either 480p, 720p or 1080i, don't know which - probably 720p or 480p) --- just like the "HD" channels -- such as 2-1, 41-1, 51-1 OTA.

So, The aspect ratio is formatted for the screen just like the "HD" channels. They need to use a 16x9 format in order to send Fox Widescreen properly.

Now, I hope this makes some sense, but I'm probably going to confuse you a bit, because of what is currently happening with the non-fox programming on WRGT-DT . What is different Right now with Syndicated/local programming being aired on WRGT-DT, as compared to say, 51-1 is -- If you're like me and you want to see 4x3 AS 4x3(as it should be), you'd have to "squeeze" the video being aired currently by WRGT-DT so it will be properly formatted as 4x3(with black bars on the sides). BUT if they were sending Fox programming right now via the "Fox widescreen feed", it would be in properly formatted aspect ratio -- This is becauseas noted earlier, Fox sends their "Widescreen feed" as 480i anamorphic reqiring that it be "strecthed out"-* at the station for proper aspect ratio. So, right now, Fox WS would fill the screen, Fox 4x3 programming would have black bars on the sides -- JUST like a "anamorphic" DVD.

* -- this is a short explanation and while I consider it accurate, some would have issues with certian "semantics" involved concerning how I explained it.(some don't like using "anamoprhic" term since we aren't talking about anamorphic lens' here, and would rather I had used the term "16x9 NTSC video" --- But you probably wouldn't know what I was talking about if I had said "16x9 NTSC Video"). The full explanation would also be looong .... and is a little different if the station is sending 480p 16x9 format(uses Pixels that are wider than they are tall when 16x9 than for the HD 16x9 formats(720p+1080i - uses square pixels). If you're interested in learning more and getting a more accurate, detailed technical explanation, The following thread is one of many on this subject at AVSforum which you might want to "study":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1


Anyhow, Right now, to properly send the syndicated/local programming as properly formatted 4x3 video, Basically speaking, they would have to change a setting(assuming they have the necessary equipment) to "squeeze it" (in other words, add side bars to "fill out" the 16x9 ATSC format they are using), and then they would have to remove that "squeeze"(or in other words "stretch it" when they switched to the Fox feed) in order for the "anamorphic" Fox material to have proper aspect ratio. WXIX-DT does have the equipment to properly format both Fox WS+local syndicated programming, although I often wish they'd just leave it "set" for Fox Widescreen mode, as they sometimes forget to make the proper "adjustments"(which are done manually in their case).

So, it Looks like right now, WRGT-DT has things set up so aspect ratio will be properly formatted for Fox Widescreen programming+the Fox "feed" via RX C, and everything else will be sent as 4x3 stretched to 16x9. This could change of course, but is the current situation. Hope that makes some sense.


Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs

Also, i'm wondering what will happen on Non HDTV TV sets that have the digital (non HD) cable box... Currently all of the Digital OTA stations that aren't in HD come through on the regular digital box (WRGT and all the non HD PBS stations come in, WHIO and WKEF won't tune in and don't show up in the guide)... I'm wondering if FOX widescreen will show up as letterboxed, if the don't take the channel off of the regular digital box.

I hadn't thought of that. Unless it can downcovert it to 480i and letterbox or crop/zoom/etc(It would be able to do that with WHIO/WKEF as well), I'd guess the Non-HD cable box would only be able to show stations sending 480i 4x3 SD. So, It wouldn't be able to handle any 16x9 ATSC format, including whatever 16x9 ATSC format WRGT-DT is currently sending. Seems like WHIO-DT 41-2 and WKEF-DT 51-2 SD subchannels could show up though, if TW has those present on their system. Interestingly, also a "blank" 30-2 subchannel has allways shown up from WRGT-DT on my DTC-100, but it has never shown up on my HDV420 receiver.

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post #1003 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 12:36 PM
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I think the easiest way to figure out the stretching non stretching modes i'll need for FOX widescreen will be to just play with it, instead of trying to try to get it ready in advance... only problem is I don't think my wife will let me timeshift Survivor tonight, at least I'll be able to play with it for the baseball game tomorrow though, and then be prepared for 24 on Sunday night, too bad i'll have to watch The Sopranos in Non HD though (TWC needs to get the HD DVR out ASAP, scheduling around HD/Non HD is becoming harder and harder)

My Samsung T151 decodes a 30-2 as well but it always comes up with "No Signal"... TWC does not have the Digital subs in their system.

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post #1004 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 12:48 PM
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I too have a blank 30-2 subchannel that comes up on my SIR-T165 box.
The box says "No AV" when you tune to it.

I think I can indirectly squeeze a 16x9 stretch down to 4x3 with my equipment, to get around the stretch on 30-1. If the 165 box is set to 480i or 480p output it squeezes a 16x9 frame to 4x3, or the S-video outputs will do the same regardless of mode.
Option 2 in my case would be to change over to cable or WRGT analog OTA.
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post #1005 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 12:51 PM
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browerjs, if you are interested in a HD DVR, and don't mind switching to Direct TV (Satellite), this box is coming out within a month:

http://www.*********************/avsTC.htm

I admit it's a little pricey, but there is nothing else like it. It has 2 DirectTV tuners (SD and HD) and 2 OTA ATSC tuners. I got my pre-order in last month. But, I'm sure it won't be long before they sell for half that price.

-Bruce

Edited to reflect the AVS Forum special they are having w/ $50 gift certificate

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post #1006 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by browerjs
... too bad i'll have to watch The Sopranos in Non HD though (TWC needs to get the HD DVR out ASAP, scheduling around HD/Non HD is becoming harder and harder)

IIRC, HBO (and hence HBO HD), repeats the Sopranos on Wed. nights. (You are still right, I may want my own HD PVR whenever they release it...)

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post #1007 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1450kHz
I think I can indirectly squeeze a 16x9 stretch down to 4x3 with my equipment, to get around the stretch on 30-1. If the 165 box is set to 480i or 480p output it squeezes a 16x9 frame to 4x3, or the S-video outputs will do the same regardless of mode.

Yes, I can do the same thing with Zenith HDV420, I'm not sure how many boxes will let you do that. Given a 16x9 ATSC format is received if output at 480i from the STB -- although my Integrated HDTV won't let you do this... On it, I can only see it just exactly as they are sending it -- I can only stretch or crop zoom 4x3 to "fit" the 16x9 display if a 4x3 ATSC format is sent by the station.

The way it looks right now keep in mind ... YOU WON'T want to change(stretch/squeeze/etc) anything for what they send for Fox WS ... Fox WS+Fox programming should be sent in proper aspect ratio --- I.e. --- shouldn't appear "stretched" or squeezed by WRGT-DT, its just the local/Syndicated stuff(at least presently) you'd need to "squeeze" for proper aspect ratio. Of course, WRGT-DT(and all stations) should be sending properly formatted video in all cases, but, given the "anamorphic" nature of the "feed" from Fox+how RX C(used for Fox widescreen by the affiliates/etc), they might need more equipment(or do some manual switching of various settings on their aspect ratio converter or encoder, which might not be a great idea either) etc. to do so, and THAT might not make any sense at the present time for them to spend $ on it since Fox Will Be going 720p HD later this year, at which time this will no longer be an issue.

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post #1008 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 03:17 PM
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I have read on 100000 Watts that WDTN will be switching back to NBC. Does anyone know when this will happen? Will NBC 22 become ABC 22?

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post #1009 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 03:41 PM
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so is anyone else seeing what could be described as a "cropping" mistake on 30-1? I just watched the simpsons and on the right hand side of the screen the picture stops about three inches from the end of the display followed by the black frame mat and then an inch or so of the picture from the left side. I know this sound cofusing, and my digital camera is broken, so hopefully someone else here can confirm.
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post #1010 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 03:58 PM
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simulated pic i made with photoshop of my problem.
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post #1011 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 04:00 PM
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post #1012 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 04:28 PM
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Weird. I'm not getting that, everything is fine(except the 4x3 stretched to 16x9) on DTC-100 Internal to my RCA F38310 integrated HDTV, all is well(except the 4x3 stretched to 16x9 issue for local/syndicated WRGT programming) on the Zenith HDV420 EXCEPT if I send 480i or 480p from my HDV420 STB and ONLY if I use it's "cropped" Aspect ratio control mode, in which case I get WRGT way "off center" and on the LH side of screen only(top in below attached photo - Doesn't matter if I have display in "4x3 mode"(grey bars as shown here) or 16x9 Mode"(no sidebars added by display)/etc. .... However, if I use the "squeezed mode"(or Letterboxed" mode) from my STB(sent at 480i/480p as described by 1450khz earlier) all is well too (see below in attached photo).
LL

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post #1013 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 04:31 PM
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Jbh613 - I'm not seeing it with my internal Mitsubishi HD tuner.

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post #1014 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 04:33 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
I have read on 100000 Watts that WDTN will be switching back to NBC. Does anyone know when this will happen? Will NBC 22 become ABC 22?

Yes, WDTN will be switching to NBC, current info indicates this will happen in September 2004. We don't know about ABC yet, but as I noted in a post earlier today, one of the articles referenced in earlier threads indicated WKEF is in talks with ABC.

For more info, See previous posts in this thread concerning this issue, starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...59#post3474459

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post #1015 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:02 PM
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well that is weird, I just rechecked and the alignment is still off for me(i wish my camera was working). It gets even stranger, since most sets cant change a 4x3 to 16x9 or vise versa, my set only allows me two aspect ratios on 30-1. Thats not a big deal since all 720p or 1080i sources need no stretching. The two modes are 16x9 standard and 16x9 zoom. Now the weirdest thing of all is when I switch to 16x9 zoom my set dispays all these weird colors and no pic at all. So I very quickly changed the channel to try to duplicate this and couldnt. On channels that are 1080i right now(51-1) when I use 16x9 zoom its fine. The only thing I can think that might be causing the trouble is that my set is "confused since the input is 480i, but in widescreen format. I am clueless on this one?
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post #1016 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
EXCEPT if I send 480i or 480p from my HDV420 STB and ONLY if I use it's "cropped" Aspect ratio control mode, in which case I get WRGT way "off center" and on the LH side of screen only


The pic on my set is pushed to the left also, it just pushes out the left side and the cropped image is displayed on the right side.
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post #1017 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:26 PM
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jbh613 --- Probably a longshot, but You might want to try rescanning channels, your set may be confused. IF that doesn't work, you should contact WRGT(there's a technical issues email address on their website) and tell them what's going on/what equipment you are using/etc.

I don't know which 16x9 ATSC format WRGT-DT is sending currently(I assume it is 480p 16x9, 720p 16x9 or 1080i 16x9) but it is NOT the same format they have been sending up until today which was 4x3 480i SD.

Since they were changing things around earlier today between 11am-12, Maybe a "reboot" of something at WRGT might take care of it, but it might be some sort of weird incompatability between a chipset used by some of their equipment and certian "modes" certian receivers/etc. are using as well -- Hard to say, but presently, the latter seems to be the case for my HDV420, and only with its "cropped" mode when sending 480i/480p from the box, which I luckily pretty much never use anyway.

Anyhow, at 8~8:25pm, aspect ratio for Fox programming is correctly formatted from WRGT-DT. I'm sending 1080i to my display currently+looking at it just as WRGT-DT is sending it w/o doing any squeezing/stretching or otherwise, and it looks good! Local ad inserts will be stretched to 16x9 during Fox programming, as will all local/Syndicated programming from WRGT as long as they've got things set for proper display of Fox WS and all Fox programming via what Fox calls "RX C" ...

---------------

Tru Calling in Fox WS at 8:31PM on WRGT-DT! Looks good here, Woohoo! Fox WS has finally made it to Dayton !

Jeff
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post #1018 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:39 PM
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your lucky, my set says that it is receiving a 480i signal not a 480p.With my set when it receives a 480i DTV signal it can display it as only 480i,compared to a 720p which can be converted to 1080i. I did try a rescan of channels and it didnt help. To be honest I really dont see a difference in PQ at all on 30-1 compared to before, it still looks the same as 26-1. even with Tru Calling on. I did nitice when it went to certain commercials I am gettin the pic sent to th LH side of the screen like your top pic from above.
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post #1019 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:41 PM
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Looks real good!

Buckeye1010
Dayton, OH
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post #1020 of 6613 Old 04-15-2004, 05:42 PM
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Comparing video right now....

I do notice that the sound is louder and more lively on WXIX. Interesting thing is that the Dolby decoder on my receiver shows WRGT sending me a left, right, and surround channel, while WXIX is sending left and right only.

I'm not sure if the volume thing is a function of my receiver, as the volume on it varies based on the mode (I generally have to crank up DD 5.1 sources).
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