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post #1081 of 6613 Old 04-21-2004, 04:20 PM
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I'm a new poster here. Lurked for 2 + month's, that's how I got the D* $99 deal, tho' when it was all said and done, they ended up paying me $26 ! Thanks to you folks.

I just got off the phone with Customer Retention and they told me locals would not be available in Dayton till the end of June but then , we would get it free for a year. Has any one else been told this or were they just blowing me smoke ?
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post #1082 of 6613 Old 04-21-2004, 08:22 PM
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Finally got hooked up and to some testing... also got a few questions.

Equipment
Sony HS20 HDTV Projector (1386 x 788 resolution)
Sony HD300 HDTV Hi-Def Receiver
Channel Master 4248 (http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4248.jpg)

Digital Channels I found - good signals
2.1 ABC Dayton
2.2 ABC Dayton
5.1 NBC Dayton
7.1 CBS Dayton
12.1 CBS Cincy
12.2 (unknown weather channel)
16.1 PBS Dayton
16.2 PBS Dayton
16.3 PBS Dayton
16.4 PBS Dayton
16.5 PBS Dayton
16.6 PBS Dayton
19.1 FOX Cincy
22.1 NBC Dayton
22.2 NBC Dayton
26.1 WB Miamisburg
41.1 CBS ???
41.2 CBS ???
45.1 FOX Dayton
48.1 PBS Cincy
48.2 PBS Cincy
51.1 NBC ???
51.2 NBC ???

Digital - No Signal, Wouldn't Lock Channel
14.2 PBS Dayton
64.1 WB Cincy


Antenna is laying on the floor in my house, not to optimal yet. It will be installed up in the attic facing towards the Dayton way (355°) with RG6.

I know all the channels I have listed are NOT broadcasting HD signals. Are there any other channels I should be getting without too much trouble?

So far, picture quality is amazing. "Las Vegas" & "CSI: Miami" were great!

Thanks!

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post #1083 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 05:11 AM
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The only one I see missing is 9.1 ABC Cincinnati (WCPO).

I think 14.2 (WPTO-DT) isn't on the air yet. 64.1 (WSTR-DT) may be on flea power.
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post #1084 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 05:22 AM
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Robert

If you go to www.antennaweb.org or www.titantv.com and plug in your zip code, you'll get a list of the channels that are reachable from your area.

There is no 12.2 There used to be, but the people who program APG didn't clear the placeholder. You most likely don't see anything. There is, however a weather channel on 9.2. 41 and 51 are Dayton CBS and NBC respectively. They show up in two places on some APG-featured receivers.

On the floor, huh? Yeah, imagine what you'll get once you get that baby higher!

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post #1085 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 06:02 AM
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BasilS,

I believe with total choice plus, you do get locals.
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post #1086 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 07:16 AM
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That's just it, I don't have Total Choice Plus, I just have Total Choice. I recieved a thing in the mail when it was supposed to start in April that the first month would be free. Now I was told the first year is free.
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post #1087 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 07:33 AM
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While they make it appear that local channels are included, they're actually extra. See the bottom of this page.

They are rather liberal with the free previews. I'm not sure you'll get a whole year, but 2 - 3 months is not uncommon, especially when a new area gets service or they're just pushing locals. I got most of last fall free for no apparent reason. Helpful in that DirecTV has the best WBQC-CA picture there is. But not worth it for those of us with OTA ATSC boxes.

If I'm not mistaken, Dayton comes on line with the launch of DirecTV's 7s satellite, which should happen in a few weeks. You will need a triple-LNB dish to get Dayton locals.

Doc

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post #1088 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 10:10 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by R_Willis
It will be installed up in the attic facing towards the Dayton way (355°) with RG6.

Keep in mind however -- If you aim it towards Dayton, My guess is you're probably not going to get optimal reception from the Cincinnati(or other) stations from the Lebanon area. The good news is -- All the Cincinnati towers(just North of downtown except for KET in N ky(taylor mill) are close enough together that one heading should work, and all the Dayton towers are on the same "antenna farm"(On the hill in West Dayton - Just West of 75+South of 35). For best reception of Both Cincinnati+Dayton stations -- Using seperate antennas on Seperate feedlines with a A/B switch just before your receiver to select between the two is probably the most convienent way to do it.

Quote:


Originally posted by R_Willis

I know all the channels I have listed are NOT broadcasting HD signals.

The only digital stations(not subchannels) that don't do HD or Fox Widescreen in Cincy/Dayton area currently are:

WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26.1) - WB Dayton
WSTR-DT 33 (Remaps to 64.1) - WB Cincinnati
WKOI-DT 39 (Remaps to 43.1) - TBN (Tower Near Oxford, Ohio)

Lets hope that someday the only station on the list above will be WKOI ...

WCET-DT 48-1 (PBS Cincinnati) is Blank from 8am-7pm, PBS HD nightly from 7pm-11pm. 48-2(simulcast of WCET analog) and 48-3(PBS Kids) run SD programming when they are in HD mode - 48-4(PBS You), 48-5(CET+ and CPB/Annenburg) are "blank"(or gone) when they are in HD mode. WCET-DT on air hours are 8am-11pm.

WPTD-DT 16-6 (ThinkTV/PBS Dayton) Has PBS HD from 6pm-6am Nightly --- 16-2(Simulcast of Think 16). and 16-4(Think Again) run SD programming when in HD mode ... 16-3(PBS Kids) and 16-5(Simulcast of ThinkTV 14) are blank when they are in HD mode ....

The commercial stations pass through network HD per network schedule --- Additionally, WRKC-DT (12.1) shows the Syndicated Paramount HDOne moves(one per month) and past couple of years has done a local HD, multi-HD camera production of Cincinnati Riverfest/WEBN fireworks.

More info on Cincinnati DTV/HD stations(such as WKRC's upcoming HDone movie schedule/etc) can be found in the Cincy thread at AVS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=306883 ), as well as here: http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com

Quote:


Originally posted by R_Willis
Are there any other channels I should be getting without too much trouble?

Following is probably more than you wanted to know and I suppose it depends upon what you mean by "too much trouble" .... However, follows are the stations that aren't on your "list" above as being received which should be "in range", or "almost in range" for you ... Where WKOI+WSTR are concerned --- They may not be easily receivable for you now, but should be at some point in the future when they increase power(or antenna height in the case of WKOI-DT).

As mentioned --- WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincinnati should be easy to pull in from Lebanon - (9.1 remap - ABC HD - 9.2 - SD Cincy Weather) - You'll probably want to add a VHF antenna for this one, though, as it transmits on VHF channel 10(All the other DTV stations in Cincy/Dayton currently transmit on UHF). "Rabbit ears" might do it - but you might need something a little better than that. FWIW, I can get them with rabbit ears up here(I'm between Middletown+Germantown) if antenna is placed near a window facing South. You would want to use a VHF/UHF joiner (such as CM part #0549) to combine a VHF antenna onto same feedline as your UHF CM4248. RS has a VHF/UHF joiner too for a few $, I can't think of the Part # off top of my head. Also, some preamps, such as CM7777 have inputs for seperate VHF/UHF antennas.

You might be able to pull in WCVN-DT 24 (54-x remap) KET/PBS - Covington, KY(Tower in Taylor Mill Just N of I-275) from Lebanon as well without too much trouble - but it's hard to say - probably depends a lot on what sort of terrain issues may be involved - and due mostly to their antenna height, you might need to go outdoors for it. I do get it just fine here from North of Middletown w/ a decent outdoor setup. They have:

54-1 - SD - KET+PBS programming
54-2 - SD - Mostly PBS National feed
54-3 - SD - KET School programming (blank during PBS HD)
54-4 - CPB/annenburg SD AND PBS HD per their schedule: http://www.ket.org/agency/dtv/programs.htm
54-5 - SD - KY General assembly coverage - House - Blank during HD+when not in session
54-6 - SD - KY General assembly coverage - Senate - Blank during HD+when not in session

As mentioned WPTO-DT 28 (should remap to 14-x) ThinkTV/PBS Oxford/Cincinnati isn't on air yet ... Last we heard, I believe they're currently planning for a 6/04 on air date. The info on their website indicates they are planning on multicasting as well as have some sort of PBS HD schedule. WPTO-DT will be broadcasting from WXIX Tower in Cincinnati (Their analog on 14 broadcasts from Oxford), and If you get WXIX-DT 29(19.1 remap), you probably should be able to get WPTO-DT just fine when they come up to.

WSTR-DT 33 (remap to 64-1) is running a 17.1KW ERP STA, which seems to do well even in Dayton for those with decent outdoor setups --- Problem is though -- They are using a directional antenna pattern which does send 17.1 KW ERP towards the North, but nowhere near that amount towards th the East or SE(certian directions to East+Se of their tower get sent only a few hundred watts) ... Your direction(NE) isn't worst ... but it isn't best either ...I show center of Lebanon at about 47 degree(true) bearing from WSTR Tower ... FCC site shows .497 relative field value at 50 degree bearing for the STA they are using --- which equates to roughly 4.2 KW ERP being sent in your direction. (relative field value in your direction Squared X Max ERP is how we figure ERP for directional antenna patterns). 4.2 KW DTV ERP is doable from 24 miles If there aren't any "too difficult" terrian/signal blockage issues -- and a CM4248 is a fine antenna that should do the job well .... Maybe even from the attic, but you'd probably need to get the antenna outdoors(and aimed at WSTR's tower of course). They'll likely be much easier to receive for you once they increase power --- Hopefully, they'll have WB HD by then(whenever that happens), but who knows.

WKOI-DT 39 (43-1 remap) TBN is on the air from a tower between Trenton+Oxford, Ohio -- But would likely be very difficult to receive from Lebanon+ you probably wouldn't think it worth the effort anyway ... They are using a antenna pattern that is even MORE(much more) directional than WSTR's --- They are currently running 18.1 KW ERP -- but Only their Community of License, Richmond, IN(some 30 miles NW of their tower) or in other words to the NW of their tower gets sent that much. Their antenna is also nowhere near as high as their analog on 43. - Generally hard to pull in unless you're around oxford or NW of their tower. I'm only 12 miles NE of their tower for instance and can just barely get them+the just over 1KW ERP they sent in my direction --- and I can only get them sometimes --- I have lots of trees+hills in the way in their direction though their analog on 43 comes in like gangbusters ....

Although you'd be out of range for most of the Columbus stations -- Much of Lebanon should be in WWHO-DT 46 (remap to 53-1) - (They have UPN AND WB HD) "fringe area" --- Very fringe area though at 55-60 miles -- and you'd likely need a outdoor setup+way to aim it towards them. Their Tower is Quite a bit South of Columbus, + Just West of Circleville in Williamsport, OHio --- 59 miles at bearing of 79 degrees from Downtown Lebanon -- which of course would be the only station in that direction .... Probably a long shot --- How possible it might be probably depends upon your exact location+any nearby terrain issues in that direction -- If you're in a low spot -- It's probably going to be especially difficult, especially as there is slow rise up to about 1100+ft about midway between their tower and Lebanon(about the same as it is between their tower and Dayton).

Quote:


Originally posted by R_Willis
So far, picture quality is amazing. "Las Vegas" & "CSI: Miami" were great!

I'm glad you are enjoying it! With the Dayton/Cincy towers so close to each other(and most stations of interest at high power), with Dayton/Columbus not too far apart either for those East of Dayton/etc --- we really live in a great area for OTA+OTA HD ...

And as you've already been able to tell, most of the area DTV stations are at high power(or fairly high power), using nice transmitting antenna heights and are easily receivable for most locations in our area. All we are really "missing" currently(except those lucky enough to be in a spot where they can pull in WWHO) is WB+UPN HD - 24/7 PBS HD channel would be nice too, but the 12 hours of PBS HD from WPTD-DT is more than a lot of folks get --- The only other minus I can think of is the Bit-starved HD that results in quite noticable compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding HD from the Cincy+Dayton area Local PBS+CBS affiliates, but that's a issue many, and probably most areas are dealing with -- All in all, we are in pretty good shape, and I think pretty lucky in this area as compared to the situation in some other areas.

Hope some of this is useful, it sounds like you are already set up to enjoy lots of OTA HD

Jeff
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post #1089 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 05:25 PM
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Update on WRGT formatting....I was able to rig up drivers and DVHS emulator to take the firewire output from my T165 box. It shows them as sending what appears to be a 480i 16x9 format (said 16x9, 29.97FPS, 15 MB/sec).
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post #1090 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 05:50 PM
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Thanks for the info 1450khz ...

Interesting ..I'd think that should be accurate - I'd asked some Dx'ers I know in the region(but not in SW Ohio) which have PCtuner cards which can tell to check it out, I'm sure they'll get the same thing as you when they do see them next time.

I hope they CAN do 720p by the time the Fox switch happens ....I'd think so, but who knows ... Anyhow, Makes me pretty happy with the PQ I'm getting from the upconversion to 1080i on my end.

I don't think 480i 16x9 is commonly sent by stations(even for Fox widescreen, although that's it's "native" resolution From Fox), Even though I know at least one time(maybe still) WTTE-DT Fox Columbus was using it .... Also, even though 480i 16x9 @30fps is a standard ATSC format+should be supported by all ATSC receivers, I wonder If it is possible "something" about it(or at least how WRGT encoder/etc. is handling it and/or how our receivers are handling it) is related to the problem jbh613 is having+that Paul and I are getting with the "crop" aspect ratio control mode on the HDV420 at 480i/p ...

As long as you've got that set up -- if you don't mind, what does it show everybody else doing(on their 16x9 subchannels) ?

Thanks again

Jeff
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post #1091 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 06:15 PM
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Oh, I moved it back to the projector so I could watch Tru Calling.

I did check a couple channels to see if I could record streams.

WRGT: 480, 29.97 FPS, 16x9
WDTN: 720, 60 FPS, 16x9
WPTD: 1080 (I was curious if it was 1080 or 720)
WKEF: 1080 16x9

I was using a DVHS emulator some of the guys over in the recording forum were using to dump the transport stream off the firewire connector on the Samsung T165. At some point I will be able to check more channels but unfortunately my PC with the firewire card and the STB are in two different places.

However, in light of this knowledge, I think I will be constructing a HTPC very soon.
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post #1092 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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BasilS -

Don't know about free locals for a year, but just wanted to make you aware, if you didn't already know, that DirecTV will only send the analog locals, not their digital (i.e. HD) versions.
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post #1093 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 06:40 PM
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Basil S --- I'm glad gindie mentioned that .... You need to use a antenna for OTA reception for the HD locals --- Unless something has changed I don't know about(can't imagine that it would) Your HD receiver from DirecTV will have a OTA(ATSC) receiver in it, you'll just need to hook up an antenna to it as well as the dish to get the HD (or digital SD) locals.

1450khz,

Thanks! That is a cool way to make use of the firewire out on your box.

WPTD-DT had told me they were doing 1080i back last year, but of course "all specifications subject to change without notice" with this stuff ... I do know that KET/WCVN-DT sends 720p(alongside 2 SD subs) instead of 1080i, and that WCET-DT does 1080i -- I think WCET has Stat Mux capability too ... It certianly looks like it anyway the way 48-2+48-3 get compression artifacts in weird places sometimes, which seems to coincide with the HD on 48-1 needing more bandwidth ...

I was mainly wondering about WKEF, as I don't think I'd ever heard for sure that they were sending 1080i, and(to my eyes at least) compression artifacts don't seem to be as much of a problem for them during bandwidth demanding HD(2002 HD olympics, Triple Crown, This year's dayton 500) as it is with other stations in the area doing 1080i+1 subchannel ... Even WLWT-DT when they had a radar sub up for a short time last fall ... I'd WAG that WKEF isn't using a Harris Flexicoder ....

I'm starting to wonder about the upconversion the DTC-100(F38310) is doing with WRGT-DT ... Earlier, I had said it would upconvert 480i to 540p ... I know that's true for 4x3 480i(or NTSC for that matter)+assumed that would be the case with 16x9 480i as well, but given what I'm seeing on it, I'm wondering if its upconverting 480i 16x9 to 1080i .... I'm probably just seeing things though ...

Jeff
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post #1094 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 07:33 PM
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I had my SIR-T165 upconverting WRGT to 720p for my projector. I meant to get a screen shot now that I have a nice new toy (Digital Camera) but the show was over and I was moving on to other things. Need to adjust my antenna a hair for WXIX, it's off just a bit.

My main gripe with WRGT isn't the PQ, it's the audio....network audio level on the DT is too low, and then I get blown away when the local spots come on.
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post #1095 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 07:35 PM
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I also did some "messing" around with my set and discovered an option in my service mode that will display station info. I ran a test on a few stations and as 1450khz posted above, I too showed that WRGT DT is at 480i with 29.97 fps but instead of 15mb/sec my readout said 12. So I guess they aren't performing any local upconverting as of yet.

To touch on a topic that was discussed here earlier, I believe that a person viewing any DTV station via an external STB is capable of receiving a better quality picture. I say this due to the fact that a STB will allow for a component output (some dvi) which is treated differently by the set than an internal input device. For example when you(Jeff) say that on your display a 480i DTV signal rivals that of a DVD, I had a hard time believing you at first, but as I started to really rationalize why, I actually could see why our results vary. With my HD tuner it is built into the set, so it is treated differently then external components such as my DVD player fed through a component cable. With the signal I receive from a DVD I have much cleaner edges and the colors are so much more vibrant and true to real life. In contrast when I view DTV stations (26-1, 30-1) the colors are way off and the overall PQ is just bad. This leads me to believe that at least in my case, that I am suffering from either a poor built in tuner, or the internal circuitry of my set for some reason displaying images of the same resolution(480i) differently. To clarify I turned my DVD player's progressive scan function off to do a direct comparison. In my case the difference between the DTV stations(outputting 480) and the DVD is immense. Just some thoughts, feel free to set me straight if I am way off.

edit: I also have noticed the really weak adio signal that WRGT is outputing.


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post #1096 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 07:56 PM
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The 15 mb/sec figure I quoted actually comes from the transport stream going to the DVHS emulator. When I changed to a 720p or 1080i signal, it said 45 mb/sec. So, I'd say the figure I'm getting does not accurately reflect the bandwidth allocations. Your tuner might be giving you more correct information.

Could you perhaps post the bandwidth numbers for some of the other stations in the area?
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post #1097 of 6613 Old 04-22-2004, 11:18 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by jbh613
To touch on a topic that was discussed here earlier, I believe that a person viewing any DTV station via an external STB is capable of receiving a better quality picture.

That hasn't been my experience with my HD display(38" direct view) which has a internal OTA DTV(HD) tuner, which I've also hooked a External STB up to via its component input to make the necessary comparison involved.

I do see much the same thing you seem to be seeing concerning DVD vs. SD DTV on ONE of my HD displays. It's 26" 16x9 direct View - the one that I use a external STB with. SD from DTV(or analog for that matter) just looks looks "fuzzier+softer" on it that it does on a display with similar screen size that displays 480i NATIVELY, whearas on the other hand HD(or SD upconverted to 1080i by my STB) looks just great on it(HD much better of course)... In fact, upconverted to 1080i, to my eyes, for the most part SD from DTV on it looks pretty close to what SD looks like on a high quality display that natively supports+displays 480i ....

I think you're getting on the right "track" -- and it may very well be possible that certian "settings" with a external STB might produce better quality from SD sources than what you can achieve with your internal tuner .... but I think you may not be focusing on the right issues here ... and I suspect what you are seeing involves "issues" related directly to your specific equipment+any upconversion(or de-interlacing, or how it processes the video/etc) it's doing, instead of something you can generalize concerning internal tuners vs. External STB's, or concerning the quality of 480i SD from DTV/ATSC as compared to 480i SD from DVD ..

What is in my experience is :

#1). For the most part I don't think we are really seeing what 480i SD "looks like" with most HD displays out there ... I can't really think of any that I've seen, internal or external tuner -- regardless of screen size ..Some of them do a decent job making SD look close to as good as it can(which isn't so great still when compared to HD of course)

#2) SD(480i) material especially can WIDELY vary in quality for many reasons - especially perhaps when it comes from local TV stations.

#3) The upconversion being done by your equipment to the Native resolution(s) your Display supports can make a BIG difference.

#4) How your equipment(which can vary greatly by model) processes the video can make a big difference as well - Take color accuracy for instance(What the stations are doing as well as the source material involved can be a big factor with "color" too).

I do think that they do make sure that DVD's "look good" on HD displays, because they know many people are using HD displays to view DVD's, unfortunetly more than are using them to watch HD -- although hopefully that's starting to change.

As for my HD Display with internal tuner -- I've pretty much seen exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Again --- One of my HD displays(RCA F38310) is just like yours to the extent that it has a INTERNAL ATSC(OTA DTV/HD)tuner. The internal tuner is, for most intents and purposes a internal version of a RCA-DTC-100 -- I often call it a DTC-100, or "internal" DTC-100 for simplicity's sake as the tuner/RF performance+user interface are exactly the same -- It's more precise name is a DM-1 module, but only those with a few models of RCA Integrated HDTV's are going to know what that is.

What is different with the DM-1 module vs. DTC-100 is ....The "external" DTC-100 model outputs RGB analog video(not component - you need a transcoder for that with it), but I don't know how the Video gets from the DM-1 module to the tube(38" 16x9 tube) on my F38310.

Anyhow, I do know with the internal tuner, it produces Higher quality 1080i HD PQ(to my eyes at least) than hooking a external STB(well, the Zenith HDV420 box I have anway) to the the F38310's component input. I can't really do a "direct" SD comparison, as I can only send 480i via S-video or composite from the HDV420 -- but the internal tuner does better with SD as well, but it's hard to tell what is what there anyway, since the SD is upconverted to 540p for display anyway. The external HDV420 DOES however seem to do a better job upconverting 720p to 1080i.

With DVD on the F38310 -- 480i (via component in) doesn't look as good(it doesn't look "bad" either though) as DVD at 480p which looks as good as I've ever seen DVD's look --- This is because of the upconversion it does to 540p. 480i(4x3 at least) is upconverted to 540p, but 480p is displayed natively via its component input. That differs from my Samsung HD display -- Sending 480i or 480p from DVD player looks pretty much the same on it, Either way -- DVD's look great on it --- as the Samsung does a great job converting 480i to 480p(which it has to do -- it CAN only displays 480p+1080i natively --For DVD's via component input anyway --- BUT, yet as mentioned earlier -- it doesn't seem to do anywhere near as good of a job with 480i/p from DTV stations(or NTSC analog for that matter) via composite/S-video or its internal NTSC(analog) tuner(again -- I don't have a way to send 480i from this STB via component to the display to do a better comparison, as it won't output 480i via component out) -- Which ends up looking "blurry and soft" to my eyes -- Blurrier+softer than it looks on a display that supports 480i SD natively, (yes, similar screen size - this is "just" a 26" 16x9 display) -- and yes --- even via Composite/svideo on the "native" 480i display.

Quote:


Originally posted by jbh613
For example when you(Jeff) say that on your display a 480i DTV signal rivals that of a DVD

I think you may have misunderstood my comments. For one thing --- as mentioned above I use 2 different HD displays+ PQ comparison(at least as I see it) between DVD+480i DTV signal differs between the two. But generally speaking --- I did not mean to say that most of the time 480i from a DTV station DOES look as good as DVD -- It USUALLY doesn't for various reasons, even if you were using a native 480i display. Only that it CAN, and its in the "ballpark" as far as quality goes --- but We're talking about a BIG ballpark where SD quality is concerned, and of course again, opinions of PQ are very subjective.

The best 480iSD(from Video anyway) I've seen around here from a DTV station is from WSTR-DT during their local News(it's a new operation, and they have all new gear they are using) -- But yeah, Fox Widescreen is pretty much on par with DVD quality too -- why shouldn't it be -- It's EXACTLY the same resolution(and again ATSC has some improvements over NTSC where color/etc is concerned)+there isn't(shouldn't be anyway, although I'm sure it happens depending upon what local stations do) anything to degrade it from that(besides the upconversion/processing your equipment is doing/etc), except "real time" MPEGII encoding necessary for during Broadcast.

Quote:


Originally posted by jbh613

In contrast when I view DTV stations (26-1, 30-1) the colors are way off and the overall PQ is just bad. This leads me to believe that at least in my case, that I am suffering from either a poor built in tuner, or the internal circuitry of my set for some reason displaying images of the same resolution(480i) differently. To clarify I turned my DVD player's progressive scan function off to do a direct comparison. In my case the difference between the DTV stations(outputting 480) and the DVD is immense. Just some thoughts, feel free to set me straight if I am way off.

I'm sure you are seeing what you are seeing -- and again this is all pretty subjective stuff .... But I think you are trying to get at why you're seeing what you are seeing, and that may be a difficult question to answer ... I think you'll find it to be a very ... let's say "involved" issue ... You could spend a lot of time on the color accuracy issue alone, for instance .... Best thing I can suggest is to do some research on this issue ... It might be hard to find, but, if it helps, there have been some excellent discussions on these matters on AVSforum among folks that are certianly far more knowledable than I.

Another thing you can do .... I think to make the comparison you are trying to make, what you really need to do is compare what 480i from a DVD vs. DTV(say Fox widescreen from WRGT-DT/etc+any other sources you can find - WDTN-DT, WHIO-DT usually, and usually WBDT-DT sends video that looks decent when displayed on display that natively supports 480i) looks like on a display that NATIVELY displays 480i+compare it to what your equipment is doing where upconversion+processing of the video signal is concerned -- knowing the specs on your equipment can help too, I don't know how much of that is going to be in the user's manual, but hopefully it won't be too hard to find out at least which resolutions/scan rates it natively supports.

To make the best comparison, You'd probably want see 480i SD on a "studio quality" broadcast monitor via component video, but, say a $300 27" TV via S-video(and probably even composite) would probably suffice for you for this comparison as well .... Although of course you'll see the Scan lines which you won't get on your HD display ....

Jeff
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post #1098 of 6613 Old 04-23-2004, 03:32 AM
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Hi Gang

Yesterday, I had my RPTV ISF calibrated. In a word: WOW! I had things somewhat tweaked myself (including red shift fix in the service menu) with Avia, etc. But the picture is SO clear and ALIVE, now! If you guys are interested, contact Chad B - his website is here: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/
I can vouch for his knowledge and attention to detail. In no way do I get any consessions for my referals, I just think this is good money and time (it took 12 hours) spent!

-Bruce

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Bruce,

I had come across Chad's Website+his posts on another board, I had a feeling he would do a great job. Looks like great prices too, especially for calibrations that include multiple scan rates - Even better, he's in our area.

I wouldn't want to even try to guess how many hours I spent correcting the geometry(among other things) on my Samsung direct-view display ... I "sort of" had fun doing it, but I know it seemed like more than $200-300 worth of work, and of course I don't have the equipment necessary to do the job ISF's calibrators do. The geometry especially was a mess and because it really needed some more "controls" in the service menu deflection settings, it was especially difficult to minimize bow problems it had as much as possible.

Jeff
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post #1100 of 6613 Old 04-23-2004, 08:29 AM
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Yes, $349 for 12 hours of professional work is pretty good. I've had quotes from people that were $200 higher for the same work. He probably spent half the time on geometry/convergence. I would never have that much patience, myself. Alot of what he did, I'd be more comfortable to do myself, now that I actually saw someone do it (and he explained it to me, too). However, I doubt I'd ever invest in colorometers (if that's what they are called) and I2C (EEPROM programers). My wife definitely notices the better PQ, so all is good! I think that anyone who is serious enough to read this board should consider this work.

-Bruce

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post #1101 of 6613 Old 04-23-2004, 12:55 PM
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Thanks Buckeye for the info. I am really considering ISF and his prices seem to be extremely reasonable.


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post #1102 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 04:11 AM
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I'm in Columbus and can vouch for Chad. He calibrated my "old" Pioneer SD-532HD5 last year and did a fantastic job. It wasn't too far off on some settings but when he was finished, I noticed a big difference, especially after he removed the--in my case--unnecessary protective screen. He's very thorough, explains what he is doing and what the results should be, and has extremely reasonable prices. Time for a touch up so I'd better call him.
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post #1103 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 03:59 PM
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Please don't tell me that I'm the only one that can't receive 2.01 or 2.02?

-Bruce

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post #1104 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 04:03 PM
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WDTN-DT is off air at 7pm. There were down for much of the day a few days ago as well --- I hope they aren't having any problems that are too serious ...

Guess I'll be Watching "Almost Famous" Tonight in HD on WCPO-DT (at least I hope so) .... Crazy ;-)

Jeff
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post #1105 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 05:09 PM
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I'm not getting WDTN-DT either. I figured they might be having problems as I usually don't have any problems with their signal.
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post #1106 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 06:29 PM
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I can tell they are off air with a little trick(+thanks to WKEF-DT being on upper adjacent channel) on a analog TV .... If WDTN-DT were on air, I'd see snow on 50 that pretty much looks like regular snow .. Some can tell the difference in the random pattern in the "on channel DT snow", but its quite difficult .. however, with 50 off air, When tuned to 50, the AFT (on this NTSC tuner anyway)wonders up a bit to 51 to an especially "visable"(produces "big" snow(it's big "horizontally) portion of WKEF-DT's sigal on 51(probably near the 8VSB pilot signal), which it doesn't do if WDTN-DT is on air, as it locks on WDTN-DT "signal" instead.

This doesn't necessarily work this way on every analog TV(NTSC tuner), but also, if you have a analog tuner you can manually "fine" tune, you can probabbly see the "big looging snow" from DT's as well ...

Some interesting Changes for broadcast version of "Almost Famous" ... I think it's OAR if I remember right(1.85:1) .... But, For some reason, they can't say "Hyatt House"(Hyatt is actually taken off their sign, which just says "Continental" now ... LOL!) .... I found that really odd ... I also thought they might use the "feck" word, but it didn't happen .... Was hoping to watch it on WDTN-DT for the DD 5.1, (WCPO-DT does DD 2.0 only -- although word is they'll soon have DD 5.1) although I can't recall if it was even produced in DD 5.1.

Jeff
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post #1107 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 06:48 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by buckeye1010
Please don't tell me that I'm the only one that can't receive 2.01 or 2.02?

They appear to be off the air.

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #1108 of 6613 Old 04-24-2004, 08:12 PM
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Also -- keep in mind They have plans(and a CP) to increase power to 1000KW. Their CE told me back in late Feburary that he thought at that time that they would be at 1MW by "Mid-May" ...

Other than tonite, as I mentioned earlier they were also down for several hours during the day one day this past week(or it might have been the week before that) -- I also noticed last Sunday that I lost signal from them for a couple of short periods during HD "Alias" ... Pretty sure it wasn't on my end or a reception issue.

Jeff
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post #1109 of 6613 Old 04-25-2004, 08:10 AM
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Looks like WDTN-DT is down for upgrades until Tuesday. I sent a query to the engineering staff and got the following reply from Jim Atkinson:

"WDTN-DT is currently not broadcasting due to extensive
transmitter upgrades. The upgrade involves adding transmission
capabilities that will increase power to one million watts. This
addition requires not only the transmitter upgrade, but also
electrical and antenna transmission line additions.
I apologize for the disruption of service, but it is necessary for the
work to be completed.
I expect the broadcasts to resume Tuesday, April 27.
Thanks for your interest and watching WDTN and WDTN-DT.


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN
WDTN-DT"

Kevin
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post #1110 of 6613 Old 04-25-2004, 12:58 PM
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Anyone else experiencing problems with WKEF(51-1) since last night? The top half of the picture is non existent for me.


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