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post #11341 of 11364 Old 09-07-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Well, maybe they could scuttle that dinghy with the 19 kids and counting, and they could put the Kardashians into dry dock.
the Kartrashians is definitely a waste of bandwidth IMHO...

Bob

The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #11342 of 11364 Old 09-07-2014, 12:55 PM
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the Kartrashians is definitely a waste of bandwidth IMHO...
But apparently those channels have a loyal following and make a ton of money for the corporations that own them.
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post #11343 of 11364 Old 09-08-2014, 09:23 AM
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For UHF fringe, look at 91XG from Antennas Direct, or the Solid Signal version. Or 9095HD from Winegard, or MXU-59 from Antennacraft. The original Channel Master 3023 may still be available from Summit Source or eBay, but I am not sure about that. And you would want the original, larger version, not the new smaller model.
Thanks Tyler! I will look into those.

All: I had always understood that the TV signals that were coming in OTA were all uncompressed HD, but as you guys have pointed out, that is actually not the case. It's possible, depending upon cable or satellite carriers, that the OTA might look better than the cable signal? As I had said back a few years ago, I felt the channels I was bringing in with an OTA gave me much better, richer colors than that of Comcast. Now, yesterday, I watched the Redskins/Texans game on channel 8, and the HD picture quality just seemed off. This was over DirecTV. When I switched to the Red Zone channel, there was an obvious improvement. So, there might be some truth in saying that watching football through NFL Sunday Ticket does provide exceptional video quality. Of course, it didn't improve the quality of play by the Redskins!
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post #11344 of 11364 Old 09-08-2014, 11:45 AM
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Thanks Tyler! I will look into those.

All: I had always understood that the TV signals that were coming in OTA were all uncompressed HD, but as you guys have pointed out, that is actually not the case. It's possible, depending upon cable or satellite carriers, that the OTA might look better than the cable signal? As I had said back a few years ago, I felt the channels I was bringing in with an OTA gave me much better, richer colors than that of Comcast. Now, yesterday, I watched the Redskins/Texans game on channel 8, and the HD picture quality just seemed off. This was over DirecTV. When I switched to the Red Zone channel, there was an obvious improvement. So, there might be some truth in saying that watching football through NFL Sunday Ticket does provide exceptional video quality. Of course, it didn't improve the quality of play by the Redskins!
We need to compare olive oil with olive oil. A local station will probably be best viewed over the air. I assume the DirectTV feed of WGHP you had was uplinked then downlinked to your set. That would be at least two more containers the oil had to be poured in and out of, than had you been watching directly OTA. Digital containers are much better than analog containers, but, still, pouring from one to another will not improve the quality of the oil, or the quantity. Analog containers were bad about picking up dirt, bugs and water and while digital is better, one can still pick up unwanted things.
Generally the fewer containers involved the better, and, OTA usually has fewer. Subscription services will let you have whatever picture quality they let you have. .
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post #11345 of 11364 Old 09-08-2014, 01:16 PM
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We need to compare olive oil with olive oil. A local station will probably be best viewed over the air. I assume the DirectTV feed of WGHP you had was uplinked then downlinked to your set. That would be at least two more containers the oil had to be poured in and out of, than had you been watching directly OTA. Digital containers are much better than analog containers, but, still, pouring from one to another will not improve the quality of the oil, or the quantity. Analog containers were bad about picking up dirt, bugs and water and while digital is better, one can still pick up unwanted things.
Generally the fewer containers involved the better, and, OTA usually has fewer. Subscription services will let you have whatever picture quality they let you have. .
The actual process happening is called "transcoding". You are not encoding and not decoding. It is the same thing as taking an .wav audio file and converting it to MP3. You are taking a file and changing it. You always loose something in the coding. Broadcast stations transmit MPEG2. DirecTV and Dish and most cablecos now use MPEG4 because it takes up less bandwidth. You will loose a little in that transcoding. That is why direct OTA looks slightly better than cable or sat. Network feeds are sent to stations at around 45 Mbps. Syndicated program varies from MPEG2 around 20 or 30 Mpbs to MPEG4 around 7.5 up to 15 Mbps.

FYI, an uncompressed HD video signal in HD-SDI format is 1.5 Gbps. 720p is slightly less than that number, 1080i is slightly more. The bit rate OTA stations send is 19.39 Mbps total. Meaning every thing that a station sends is all within 19.39. All subchannels, EPG data PSIP data, everything.

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post #11346 of 11364 Old 09-08-2014, 03:58 PM
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The actual process happening is called "transcoding". You are not encoding and not decoding. It is the same thing as taking an .wav audio file and converting it to MP3. You are taking a file and changing it. You always loose something in the coding. Broadcast stations transmit MPEG2. DirecTV and Dish and most cablecos now use MPEG4 because it takes up less bandwidth. You will loose a little in that transcoding. That is why direct OTA looks slightly better than cable or sat. Network feeds are sent to stations at around 45 Mbps. Syndicated program varies from MPEG2 around 20 or 30 Mpbs to MPEG4 around 7.5 up to 15 Mbps.

FYI, an uncompressed HD video signal in HD-SDI format is 1.5 Gbps. 720p is slightly less than that number, 1080i is slightly more. The bit rate OTA stations send is 19.39 Mbps total. Meaning every thing that a station sends is all within 19.39. All subchannels, EPG data PSIP data, everything.
You're taking all the fun out of this Foxeng!
But, a great point about how much MPEG2 compresses the raw digital source material. 25.years ago that MPEG2 container was great. My own thinking is that if OTA survives, something beyond MPEG4 should be the next broadcast standard. Maybe with 180 fields per second..
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post #11347 of 11364 Old 09-09-2014, 05:05 AM
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OK, so using your olive oil analogy, is the conclusion, then, that OTA local signals produce a better quality video to the end user than what they would appear on cable or satellite?
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post #11348 of 11364 Old 09-09-2014, 05:54 AM
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OK, so using your olive oil analogy, is the conclusion, then, that OTA local signals produce a better quality video to the end user than what they would appear on cable or satellite?
Better, usually, than after the local station signal goes through some container changes to be retransmitted by dish or cable..
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post #11349 of 11364 Old 09-09-2014, 09:24 AM
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Better, usually, than after the local station signal goes through some container changes to be retransmitted by dish or cable..
That's probably where I got the idea that the signals were uncompressed.

So, while we're on the subject of signals being passed down, what would the structure be for professional sports? Meaning, as example, the NFL is shooting the football game with their own cameras, it goes to their own trucks, where does that broadcast have to go to before it reaches the local stations that plan to show said game? Is there a source, outside of the NFL, that it must pass through first? Or, does it go directly from the NFL to the broadcast stations? Or, does it go from one broadcast station and then passed down to another? What I'm trying to ask is, let's say the Washington D.C. FOX station would be the main FOX station to show Redskins games. Would the FOX station in Richmond or Roanoke get their broadcast of the NFL game from the D.C. station, or would they get it directly from the NFL? Would the signal have to pass through one station to the next before it arrives to Roanoke? I guess my train of thought on this question would be comparison to a WAV file being converted to MP3 converted again to MP3 and once again converted to MP3 before it reaches its final destination? Or would all stations get equal signal quality of that broadcast? I hope I'm making sense! LOL! Just trying to get a better understanding of how it works.
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post #11350 of 11364 Old 09-09-2014, 11:46 AM
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That's probably where I got the idea that the signals were uncompressed.

So, while we're on the subject of signals being passed down, what would the structure be for professional sports? Meaning, as example, the NFL is shooting the football game with their own cameras, it goes to their own trucks, where does that broadcast have to go to before it reaches the local stations that plan to show said game? Is there a source, outside of the NFL, that it must pass through first? Or, does it go directly from the NFL to the broadcast stations? Or, does it go from one broadcast station and then passed down to another? What I'm trying to ask is, let's say the Washington D.C. FOX station would be the main FOX station to show Redskins games. Would the FOX station in Richmond or Roanoke get their broadcast of the NFL game from the D.C. station, or would they get it directly from the NFL? Would the signal have to pass through one station to the next before it arrives to Roanoke? I guess my train of thought on this question would be comparison to a WAV file being converted to MP3 converted again to MP3 and once again converted to MP3 before it reaches its final destination? Or would all stations get equal signal quality of that broadcast? I hope I'm making sense! LOL! Just trying to get a better understanding of how it works.
I believe someone involved in this should answer beyond the olive oil response.
The network will deliver a very large container of football to the affiliates by satellite.
The local affiliates will put the football into their own container for delivery OTA to the home receiver.
Assuming traditional procedures, the director on site will select what goes "on air" from the remote location, and, that is sent to the network delivery center, which inserts material not coming from the remote location (stadium) , such as commercials.
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post #11351 of 11364 Old 09-09-2014, 01:30 PM
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So, while we're on the subject of signals being passed down, what would the structure be for professional sports? Meaning, as example, the NFL is shooting the football game with their own cameras, it goes to their own trucks, where does that broadcast have to go to before it reaches the local stations that plan to show said game?
I could be wrong about this, but I don't think the NFL is directly in the broadcasting business or in the business of producing the telecasts. I think that is done by the broadcast networks.

I assume that the local affiliates receive the programming via satellite. I'm not sure how the satellite feed is delivered to the television transmitting towers, perhaps via coaxial cable (if the distance is relatively short) or via microwave relay. Sometimes a local station has a tower near its studios, and that can also be where the satellite dish is located to receive the feed from the network, but often the transmitter is far from the studios.

In the early days of television, stations were connected by coaxial cable to form a network. Initially the networks just joined NYC with Philadelphia and maybe Washington, DC. Later on, Chicago was brought into the fledgling networks, but for a few years, the west coast was not connected and had to rely on kinescopes.
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post #11352 of 11364 Old 09-10-2014, 08:46 AM
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So, while we're on the subject of signals being passed down, what would the structure be for professional sports? Meaning, as example, the NFL is shooting the football game with their own cameras, it goes to their own trucks, where does that broadcast have to go to before it reaches the local stations that plan to show said game? Is there a source, outside of the NFL, that it must pass through first? Or, does it go directly from the NFL to the broadcast stations? Or, does it go from one broadcast station and then passed down to another? What I'm trying to ask is, let's say the Washington D.C. FOX station would be the main FOX station to show Redskins games. Would the FOX station in Richmond or Roanoke get their broadcast of the NFL game from the D.C. station, or would they get it directly from the NFL? Would the signal have to pass through one station to the next before it arrives to Roanoke? I guess my train of thought on this question would be comparison to a WAV file being converted to MP3 converted again to MP3 and once again converted to MP3 before it reaches its final destination? Or would all stations get equal signal quality of that broadcast? I hope I'm making sense! LOL! Just trying to get a better understanding of how it works.
The NFL does not have a "broadcast" arm like NASCAR. The networks themselves contract out services from a mobile production company. I believe the last time I heard (several years ago so this could have changed by now) it was NEP Supershooters for all the networks.

Each network provides an on site engineer who has final say on things before they are sent, usually by sat and fiber optics to the network broadcast center where it is then uplinked to the stations. Usually all the commercials during the game are also sent from the the same production truck and commercials during the half time and pre and post game are inserted at the broadcast center.

Normally during football season, production trucks are pre positioned at all the stadiums since there are so many games in such a short time period. Not counting tear down time and travel time, setup for a football takes several days so the trucks are normally left in place. The equipment is switchable and so if FOX or ESPN or ABC is doing the game, all the equipment is put in 720p mode. If the game is on CBS, NBC or NFL Network, the equipment is switched to 1080i. Graphics for all the networks are carried on the production trucks so depending on who is airing that game, that networks graphics are used from that truck.

NASCAR on the other hand has their own truck that they move from track to track each week and feed to the network carrying the race.

College sports are handled in whatever fashion the network has with that conference. Some are handled by the conference itself (meaning they contract the production truck and the network just sends the air people staff) while other conferences will sign a deal with the network and let them worry about it.

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post #11353 of 11364 Old 09-12-2014, 08:09 PM
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Question

I've had my antenna (DB4) for a couple of years but I think we're finally going to pull the trigger and put it up for an OTA test to see if we can cut the cord. I'm buying a couple of used TiVo boxes on Sunday and need to make some plans. Is there any simple way or rule of thumb for antenna aiming? We're only a couple of degrees off from being in a straight line between Sophia and Sauratown, Back when I first started the process, the advice I was given was to point it at Sophia and see if Sauratown would come through the backside. But, as I'm deciding on positioning, I thought I'd see if there was a way to do it that I was unaware of.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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post #11354 of 11364 Old 09-13-2014, 10:52 AM
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I've had my antenna (DB4) for a couple of years but I think we're finally going to pull the trigger and put it up for an OTA test to see if we can cut the cord. I'm buying a couple of used TiVo boxes on Sunday and need to make some plans. Is there any simple way or rule of thumb for antenna aiming? We're only a couple of degrees off from being in a straight line between Sophia and Sauratown, Back when I first started the process, the advice I was given was to point it at Sophia and see if Sauratown would come through the backside. But, as I'm deciding on positioning, I thought I'd see if there was a way to do it that I was unaware of.


The DB4 only has a "front" or "back" because of the mesh reflector., which doesn't block signal very well. So, you could point to Sauratown MTN, and pick up the others off the back, or vice versa. The only other reasonable option .would be to point at Charlotte, and maybe pick up the locals off the sides. That is possible, and might gain some Charlotte stations..Everything at the bottom line is the L Cubed thing: (Location) (Location) (Location).
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post #11355 of 11364 Old Yesterday, 11:31 AM
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I've had my antenna (DB4) for a couple of years but I think we're finally going to pull the trigger and put it up for an OTA test to see if we can cut the cord. I'm buying a couple of used TiVo boxes on Sunday and need to make some plans. Is there any simple way or rule of thumb for antenna aiming? We're only a couple of degrees off from being in a straight line between Sophia and Sauratown, Back when I first started the process, the advice I was given was to point it at Sophia and see if Sauratown would come through the backside. But, as I'm deciding on positioning, I thought I'd see if there was a way to do it that I was unaware of.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Yes, go to tvfool.com or antennaweb.org. I prefer the map at tvfool - it will tell you exactly where to aim to maximize your reception - it will show you where stations are located, what should come in, etc. Just like others say, the DB4 isn't perfectly straight ahead, their are lobes, which can help or hurt what you get. On my DB8, I use a side lobe to get WXII but everything else is pointed towards GSO, which works for my location. When I used to use CLT as my main market, the side lobe and tree blocked 46, which is why I switched back to GSO to get all stations equally well, however, the side lobe gets CLT stations easily during the winter when the leaves have dropped.
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post #11356 of 11364 Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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I prefer the map at tvfool - it will tell you exactly where to aim to maximize your reception - it will show you where stations are located, what should come in, etc.
My apologies for my lack of clarity. I have had my tvfool report since before I got my antenna. My aiming question is... how do I figure out how to point to the degree I want? Do I need to buy a digital compass of some kind or is there a trick to it? And, oddly, I've not seen anything about lobes, so I need to do some more research there. (Just a note - I have less than zero interest in out-of-market stations - if a Charlotte network station is picked up on the scan, I'll probably delete it.)

Here's my report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae840e811002
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post #11357 of 11364 Old Yesterday, 02:31 PM
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My apologies for my lack of clarity. I have had my tvfool report since before I got my antenna. My aiming question is... how do I figure out how to point to the degree I want? Do I need to buy a digital compass of some kind or is there a trick to it? And, oddly, I've not seen anything about lobes, so I need to do some more research there. (Just a note - I have less than zero interest in out-of-market stations - if a Charlotte network station is picked up on the scan, I'll probably delete it.)

Here's my report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...46ae840e811002
There will be no trick.. If you point the antenna about at Sauratown Mtn., there should be no problem with any of the locals, except the ION station; if you want WGPX, you will probably have to aim to its antenna. The sun might work as well as a compass. But, you can use any magnetic compass you can read. North is 360 (and 0), east, 90, south is 180, west is 270. You can trace around the compass onto a piece of cardboard, then draw a straight line between north and south, then east and west. Subdivide the quarters into 9 increments, and you will have a circle divided into 36 10 degree segments.
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post #11358 of 11364 Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM
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Yeah, I would just aim it at 130, so NE... All those 2Edges will probably be tough to get in, so always go for the LOS ones...
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post #11359 of 11364 Old Yesterday, 06:51 PM
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All those 2Edges will probably be tough to get in, so always go for the LOS ones...
Yep, the green LOS ones are the only ones I'm interested in. I'm still a bit undecided on whether or not to try the antenna in the rafters first or just go straight to the mast on the chimney. There are pros and cons to each approach.
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post #11360 of 11364 Old Today, 05:41 AM
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Yep, the green LOS ones are the only ones I'm interested in. I'm still a bit undecided on whether or not to try the antenna in the rafters first or just go straight to the mast on the chimney. There are pros and cons to each approach.
To not have to worry about lightning and grounding, I'd try the rafters first. This coming from a dude with a 35ft tower...
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post #11361 of 11364 Old Today, 06:56 AM
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To not have to worry about lightning and grounding, I'd try the rafters first. This coming from a dude with a 35ft tower...
The sad part is that, apart from those two items (which are the ones I'm most concerned with), getting the antenna in the rafters is more difficult than mounting it. Even though there's an existing mast on the chimney, I'm rethinking that option. I'm wondering if I'd be better off sacrificing some height - by mounting on the side of the roof where the dish sits - both to take advantage of the wiring there (from the old cable box) and the power meter right beside it.
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post #11362 of 11364 Old Today, 07:27 AM
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The sad part is that, apart from those two items (which are the ones I'm most concerned with), getting the antenna in the rafters is more difficult than mounting it. Even though there's an existing mast on the chimney, I'm rethinking that option. I'm wondering if I'd be better off sacrificing some height - by mounting on the side of the roof where the dish sits - both to take advantage of the wiring there (from the old cable box) and the power meter right beside it.

It isn't awful grounding an antenna, but doing it right isn't done often. From everything I have read, it must go straight from the mast into the ground, no sharp bends, unlike what you see for most people where it bends every which way to not look awful. But lightning doesn't travel like a crazy straw - it jumped miles in the air, it finds the easiest way to ground and you are doing your best to encourage it into the ground cable to put it where you want... From there it needs to be tied to the utility ground so everything is at the same potential - now you can use the same ground rod, but that might not be convenient. The reasoning is it is the voltage differential that causes the issues, so if everything is at the same level, nothing happens.


You will hear people argue that the grounds should be separate, but according to the NEC code, and any instructional manual you have, you will see that the grounds all are supposed to tie to the service ground, even if that means running a thick cable (or large copper foil) all the way across your house.


Grounding the coax is also a good idea - the grounding blocks are cheap, and you probably already have one left over from the satellite if they did the job correctly. Same thing, needs to be tied to the service ground.


With my tower, I ran six ground rods, large copper foil underground connecting them all, as well as heavy duty 2g wire connecting the legs to the rods... it wasn't expensive, but it did take effort to do it right. We had a lightning hit twenty feet away from the tower, nothing in the house was touched except two light switches that had relays in them that were fried. All electronics in and out were fine.
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post #11363 of 11364 Old Today, 05:48 PM
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I'm surprised that county and municipal governments don't regulate antenna installations, charge an inspection fee, and require that only certified, qualified installers do the work. Maybe it's time to make unions more powerful.
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