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Old 08-13-2015, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by gman40 View Post
I think, in the end, that's what's probably going to happen. Sometimes, you hear about all these great things that can happen if we switch to this standard or that standard, and usually, those ideas seem to disappear when the rubber meets the road. Again, as an end user, if I were to lose the ability to have OTA, I had better be given some great options that would make me feel like it was worth the sacrifice of OTA.
So many of the things in ATSC 3.0 are about surround sound, but I think a majority of people just watch tv using the speakers in the TV. I rarely turn on my surround setup... and this stuff about height channels, etc... its solving a problem nobody asked about... they just keep heaping on this stuff that is barely an upgrade while not listening to what the consumers really use TV for. Lets face it, probably a majority of people using OTA are doing so to save money (and a small percentage for superior picture, or an ideology, or just as an adjunct)... So, what penny pinchers are going to put twenty thousand speakers in their house to surround themselves just so they can hear America's Got Talent like they were in the audience?


It would have been nice if they had used h264 as the encoding to facilitate more room, but ATSC 1.0 was what was settled on - so leave it alone. The consumer isn't asking for anything, except good quality signal and a few good subchannels (heck, just one is fine I think for most people).


Since I use a computer to decode my antenna, I'm sure I am more than fine, but still - lets not make equipment obsolete for no reason.


PS - a few posts back someone referred to a USB tuner for upgrading, but I think probably meant an HDMI device, which would be universally compliant, regardless of make.
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Old 08-13-2015, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by krisbee View Post
So many of the things in ATSC 3.0 are about surround sound, but I think a majority of people just watch tv using the speakers in the TV. I rarely turn on my surround setup... and this stuff about height channels, etc... its solving a problem nobody asked about... they just keep heaping on this stuff that is barely an upgrade while not listening to what the consumers really use TV for. Lets face it, probably a majority of people using OTA are doing so to save money (and a small percentage for superior picture, or an ideology, or just as an adjunct)... So, what penny pinchers are going to put twenty thousand speakers in their house to surround themselves just so they can hear America's Got Talent like they were in the audience?


It would have been nice if they had used h264 as the encoding to facilitate more room, but ATSC 1.0 was what was settled on - so leave it alone. The consumer isn't asking for anything, except good quality signal and a few good subchannels (heck, just one is fine I think for most people).


Since I use a computer to decode my antenna, I'm sure I am more than fine, but still - lets not make equipment obsolete for no reason.


PS - a few posts back someone referred to a USB tuner for upgrading, but I think probably meant an HDMI device, which would be universally compliant, regardless of make.
That's the problem. Changes tend to be more on a political nature that has nothing to do with the consumers and more to do with which special interest groups have the money for leverage. The consumer tends to suffer.
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Old 08-13-2015, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by krisbee View Post
It would have been nice if they had used h264 as the encoding to facilitate more room, but ATSC 1.0 was what was settled on - so leave it alone. The consumer isn't asking for anything, except good quality signal and a few good subchannels (heck, just one is fine I think for most people).
In fairness, H.264 didn't exist when ATSC 1.0 was adopted. That's how old the standard is; MPEG-2 was cutting edge.

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Old 08-13-2015, 01:11 PM
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I think, in the end, that's what's probably going to happen. Sometimes, you hear about all these great things that can happen if we switch to this standard or that standard, and usually, those ideas seem to disappear when the rubber meets the road. Again, as an end user, if I were to lose the ability to have OTA, I had better be given some great options that would make me feel like it was worth the sacrifice of OTA.
At this point, we can send 16 channels of audio if we want. All we have to do is turn them on. But you have to have something to put on it and we don't. We currently use the first 6 channels for 5.1 audio, (called channels 1-6) and 7 and 8 are used for SAP. It could have anything from Spanish to Descriptive Audio. Certainly, it is possible to have channels 7-12 have Spanish 5.1 and Descriptive Audio on 13 and 14 and still have 15 and 16 for something else. There is a lot of capacity, but you need the content to go on it. We are still waiting for 5.1 on syndicated programming. I don't know about other stations, but when that happens, we can pass 5.1, if the syndicators will ever send it. We pass Spanish on the scripted syndicated programs that provide it now, which are not that many. Syndicated programs that we do are Bones, Glee, and The Closer. They all have Spanish on the SAP channel. Many of the movies we air from FOX syndication have Spanish on the SAP channel as well, just not all the movies. I don't know what is used as criteria to pick and chose for the movies.

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Old 08-17-2015, 09:13 AM
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At this point, we can send 16 channels of audio if we want. All we have to do is turn them on. But you have to have something to put on it and we don't. We currently use the first 6 channels for 5.1 audio, (called channels 1-6) and 7 and 8 are used for SAP. It could have anything from Spanish to Descriptive Audio. Certainly, it is possible to have channels 7-12 have Spanish 5.1 and Descriptive Audio on 13 and 14 and still have 15 and 16 for something else. There is a lot of capacity, but you need the content to go on it. We are still waiting for 5.1 on syndicated programming. I don't know about other stations, but when that happens, we can pass 5.1, if the syndicators will ever send it. We pass Spanish on the scripted syndicated programs that provide it now, which are not that many. Syndicated programs that we do are Bones, Glee, and The Closer. They all have Spanish on the SAP channel. Many of the movies we air from FOX syndication have Spanish on the SAP channel as well, just not all the movies. I don't know what is used as criteria to pick and chose for the movies.
Yeah. Just what I could think of right of the top of my head is a channel where the audio is censored for sensitive ears or the ability to change to different commentators if you don't like the ones calling the game you're watching.
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Old 08-17-2015, 09:51 AM
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Yeah. Just what I could think of right of the top of my head is a channel where the audio is censored for sensitive ears or the ability to change to different commentators if you don't like the ones calling the game you're watching.
Issue is the public at large has no idea there are multiple channels available or the ones who do know how to use them. That is one reason broadcasters, OTA and MVPD have not used them. When digital was first introduced in the late 80s and early 90's, it was touted as being able to have multi audio and video angles and a lot more. Truth is, yeah, it will do all that, and so can DVD's. The few DVD's that actually have all those features, no one uses them or even knows they even exist. Same with broadcasting. FOX is the only network I am aware of that uses SAP extensively beyond Descriptive Audio. During NASCAR, on the SAP channel, you have all the audio except the announcers. During many of the MLB games you have the games announced by Spanish announcers. When America's Most Wanted and Cops ran on FOX, they had Spanish on the SAP channel and the calls about "Spanish talkin'" on those programs would drive you crazy. You would not believe the number of calls we get either wanting to know why we aren't broadcasting the NASCAR announcers or "Hey, this is America. Why are you broadcasting Glee in Spanish." You try to explain to the viewer they have the control to change it back and they don't believe because "they didn't do anything to their TV to make it change to Spanish in the first place. You need to put English back on."

Multi-view video and multi-channel audio is beyond the majority of TV viewers.

And now you know the rest of the story.

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Old 08-17-2015, 10:55 AM
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Issue is the public at large has no idea there are multiple channels available or the ones who do know how to use them. That is one reason broadcasters, OTA and MVPD have not used them. When digital was first introduced in the late 80s and early 90's, it was touted as being able to have multi audio and video angles and a lot more. Truth is, yeah, it will do all that, and so can DVD's. The few DVD's that actually have all those features, no one uses them or even knows they even exist. Same with broadcasting. FOX is the only network I am aware of that uses SAP extensively beyond Descriptive Audio. During NASCAR, on the SAP channel, you have all the audio except the announcers. During many of the MLB games you have the games announced by Spanish announcers. When America's Most Wanted and Cops ran on FOX, they had Spanish on the SAP channel and the calls about "Spanish talkin'" on those programs would drive you crazy. You would not believe the number of calls we get either wanting to know why we aren't broadcasting the NASCAR announcers or "Hey, this is America. Why are you broadcasting Glee in Spanish." You try to explain to the viewer they have the control to change it back and they don't believe because "they didn't do anything to their TV to make it change to Spanish in the first place. You need to put English back on."

Multi-view video and multi-channel audio is beyond the majority of TV viewers.

And now you know the rest of the story.
That is certainly part of the story. More of the story is that broadcasters have been quite mum about DTV. OTA is much like family members that aren't spoken of. Most of the information coming from TV stations before the analog shutdown was something like, "you people watching on an antenna won't be able to in a little while. Sorry 'bout that".
I don't know how viewers can know much about the capabilities of their equipment if nobody is informing them.
TV salesmen don't or can't know what might be available, and TV stations and MVPD's aren't talking. I'm not sure how the general public is to know anything.
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Old 08-18-2015, 07:29 AM
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Honestly, as an end user and someone who is not in the biz, I don't hear about any of this stuff. The only major announcement I remember being pushed out to the public was the analog to digital conversion - and honestly that was met with a lot of confusion. Most people were just worried as to if they were going to lose their broadcasts, they were not concerned about different camera angles and audio channels. I do remember, briefly, hearing something about different camera angles and so forth when DVDs first started coming out, but I don't believe I have ever purchased a DVD with that type of feature on it. And honestly, when it comes to movies, I'm not sure different camera angles really means that much to them. It does in sports though!
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:41 AM
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So, I just had to post this good news! I had been borrowing my dad's homemade TV antenna for some time. I kept forgetting about giving it back to him. I hooked it up to the TV set a few weeks ago, just using it inside. I was able to pick up about 23 channels. Mostly all the locals. Some were kind of hit or miss. However, I remembered a preamp I had purchased a few years back. I had attempted to set up a TV Antenna at my old house in VA, but never got around to it. Anyway, lo and behold, that preamp was out in the garage. I hooked it up, and it really did help to bring in all of those locals without any freezing at all.

So, anyway, having been pleased that my dad's homemade TV antenna was doing a pretty decent job on the inside, I decided I'd take it outside, hook it up, and just see what happens. Well, to my amazement, I was able to pick up more channels. I gained about another five channels with the first scan. In addition to all the locals, I was able to pick up WDBJ 7 and all of its sub channels, as well as WFXR - FOX 27 and all of its sub channels! If you remember, the Fox station was the one I was really wanting to get so that I could pick up the Redskins games. Anyways, you could just imagine my giddiness! I messed around with it, re-positioned it, and I was able to pick up WSLS Channel 10 in addition to the other VA channels I was trying to get. So, by moving outside, I was able to pick up around 11 more channels - all VA channels! Now, yesterday and today has been a little hit or miss. I lost WSLS and FOX 27 was going off and on, so I moved it. When I did, that seemed to fix WFXR and I got WSLS back, but then I lost WDBJ 7. Keep in mind, it's just sitting on the edge of the back patio, and I'm just moving it a little bit to the left or right. On Friday night, I got all of those channels without any reception issues.

Anyway, this is a great discovery, because it means that where I'm at in Oak Ridge, I can pick up both VA locals and NC locals. Now, I don't necessarily plan on using my dad's homemade antenna for the long haul. I'll use it for awhile. It probably won't last very long outside, so I'll need something that's a little more powerful and built to stand up to elements. But, I'm thrilled that for practically no money at all, I was able to pick up everything I was wanting to pick up.

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Old 08-23-2015, 01:28 PM
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So the map that showed the signals reaching down into the area is in reality a good reference. The map that showed the cut-off of signal much further north does not take into account the terrain influence at all. Once you get a real antenna mounted outside you will be good to go.
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Old 08-24-2015, 05:27 AM
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So the map that showed the signals reaching down into the area is in reality a good reference. The map that showed the cut-off of signal much further north does not take into account the terrain influence at all. Once you get a real antenna mounted outside you will be good to go.
The good thing is right now, I don't have to be in a big hurry to run out and purchase a new antenna. Of course, as the atmosphere changes from season to season, I don't know what to expect when we reach the winter months. Might be better, might be worse. That might be the case despite what antenna I get and where it's mounted. As long as I have the channels that I can get right now, I don't really need to try to get more. I've got some duplicate "THIS" channels, duplicate "Antenna TV" channels, MeTV, "MY" channels, etc....so I'm good to go. Actually, this allows me the opportunity to possibly put off buying all the equipment I was going to buy and maybe buy a Channel Master DVR. That is one thing I DO miss about cable and satellite TV. I love having the DVR, because we almost are never able to watch anything when it's actually airing.
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Old 08-24-2015, 07:01 AM
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^^I would suggest the TiVo Roamio OTA DVR. Better overall interface, program guide, and stable tuners. I think they still may have the lifetime service deal for $399 from TiVo online, which is a good deal that pays for itself in a few months.
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:59 AM
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Those with Dish, has WXLV and WMYV been removed? Have gotten a couple of calls of people asking us about it. Of course, we have no idea!

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Old 08-26-2015, 06:59 AM
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When I was using the antenna with Charlotte stations a couple of years ago I noticed they would broadcast their MLB games (still in HD, but without commentator audio,) just the noise as if you were in the stands on one of their sub-channels, -2 or -3.

I would love it if we could get the same for MLB & NFL games by using an audio sub-channel that just fed the ambient background (no "color" commentators).

edit: you can currently get a refurbished Tivo Roamio (4-tuner, OTA or digital cable) plus lifetime service for $300 direct from their website.

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During NASCAR, on the SAP channel, you have all the audio except the announcers.

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Old 08-26-2015, 02:27 PM
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Those with Dish, has WXLV and WMYV been removed? Have gotten a couple of calls of people asking us about it. Of course, we have no idea!
Yes, they were both removed from Dish last night.
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Old Today, 08:23 AM
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Yes, they were both removed from Dish last night.
Thanks.

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