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Old 03-30-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by eacalhoun View Post
This is a simple technical personal interest question - just to see if I correctly understand the "co-habitation" of adjacent channels. For example - in the Charlotte market, WCNC and WBTV currently are on adjacent channels, 22 and 23. This works because their sites are within close proximity at the Dallas tower farm. Theoretically, could WJZY and WMYT (also at the Dallas farm) occupy channels 21 and 24, or 24 and 25, or 20 and 21? For the purpose of my example in my perfect RF world, no stations within 200 miles occupy channels 20, 21, 24 or 25. If my thinking is on the right track - so far - how many miles out does that "site proximity" end where interference kicks-in and channels CANNOT be adjacent? Or - as an alternate example - can adjacent channels exist at both Dallas and in NE Charlotte at WSOC and WCCB's sites?

Thanks - tried to make that example as simple as possible.
Your theory is correct by "co-habitation". Due to the tightness of the mask filter digital stations can do that where analogs couldn't. Also, the first adjacent channels need to have about the same power levels so the receiver doesn't try to lock onto a station with a much greater power level, say, one station is 100,000 watts and another is 1 millions. I was trying to remember off the top of my head what the on channel separation distance is and if I remember correctly it is 150 miles, but if you can get a waiver or can prove you will not cause additional interference, you can be closer.

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Old 03-30-2017, 09:57 AM
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To expand on what foxeng has said, distance separations are dead. Whether a station is permissible is now governed by modeling the stations' coverage and interference and determining whether you're within a rounding tolerance of 0% population. It's not quite that simple, but that's the basic premise.

So yes, adjacency is permitted. To provide a good example, in Los Angeles, there are full powered signals on 31/32/33/34/35/36. They can be all in a row like that because they're all very close together on Mount Wilson or Mount Harvard and at roughly the same power, height, and antenna pattern. At the receiver, then, all the signals look to be roughly the same strength and are easy to pick out. By contrast, also in Los Angeles, KVCR-26 is the only full-power station on a different mountain. As such, the big full-power stations cannot be on adjacent channels. However, there are LPTV/Class A stations on adjacent channels on Mount Wilson and Mount Harvard because they're weak enough that they do not cause interference to KVCR.

So getting closer to home, you'll find that on the NAB Clearinghouse, the FCC's final channel assignment tool has assigned WCCB to channel 18 next to WSOC on 19, and that's because they're at similar location, height, power, and antenna pattern. Similarly, you'll see WCNC on 24 and WJZY on 25 for the same reason. You can't have full powers adjacent to each other at the different locations, but note that WCCB is on 27 and WGTB-CD is on 28 despite being at the different locations. WGTB-CD is weak enough that it does not step on WCCB's signal despite the distance.

Does that help?

- Trip

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Old 03-30-2017, 10:39 AM
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Thanks FoxEng and Trip for the explanations - yeah, that helps me understand it more. Particularly interesting is FoxEng's point on the how the power levels need to be very close - that's something I had a hunch about in the back of my mind when I posted my question, but failed to mention. The "exception" is also interesting - using Trip's example of WCCB and WGTB given the distances between each site, yet on adjacent channels. Would part of this also be that WGTB (which I believe is LPTV) does not have the same interference protections as full power TV stations?

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Old 03-31-2017, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eacalhoun View Post
This is a simple technical personal interest question - just to see if I correctly understand the "co-habitation" of adjacent channels. For example - in the Charlotte market, WCNC and WBTV currently are on adjacent channels, 22 and 23. This works because their sites are within close proximity at the Dallas tower farm. Theoretically, could WJZY and WMYT (also at the Dallas farm) occupy channels 21 and 24, or 24 and 25, or 20 and 21? For the purpose of my example in my perfect RF world, no stations within 200 miles occupy channels 20, 21, 24 or 25. If my thinking is on the right track - so far - how many miles out does that "site proximity" end where interference kicks-in and channels CANNOT be adjacent? Or - as an alternate example - can adjacent channels exist at both Dallas and in NE Charlotte at WSOC and WCCB's sites?

Thanks - tried to make that example as simple as possible.
I appreciate the FCC attempt to group the new channels close together. But wish there could have been an effort to consolidate antenna farms together to one basic location. Such as WSOC and WCCB moving to Gaston County near WBTV, WCNC, and WJZY. Would be better for antenna aiming and reception. But I guess that could be problematic and a larger expense. But back in the 80's WCNC did move from Charlotte to Dallas to have a taller tower and a wider coverage area. And now that WYFF may be moving to 30, WSOC may need a stronger signal to reach Shelby and other areas west of Gastonia, since their translator may go away or likely have to move. Since WYFF reaches Shelby and would interfere on the same channel as WSOC translator.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tylerSC View Post
I appreciate the FCC attempt to group the new channels close together. But wish there could have been an effort to consolidate antenna farms together to one basic location. Such as WSOC and WCCB moving to Gaston County near WBTV, WCNC, and WJZY. Would be better for antenna aiming and reception. But I guess that could be problematic and a larger expense.
The FCC is not requiring any stations to relocate to new towers as part of this process. It could not have done so, because there would be no guarantee they could reach an agreement to operate on a different tower.

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Old 03-31-2017, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eacalhoun View Post
The "exception" is also interesting - using Trip's example of WCCB and WGTB given the distances between each site, yet on adjacent channels. Would part of this also be that WGTB (which I believe is LPTV) does not have the same interference protections as full power TV stations?
First, WGTB-CD is a class A and thus auction-eligible (meaning it will either be paid to go off the air or be guaranteed a channel).

To your question, that's part of it. The other part is that stations can agree to accept interference, and that's regardless of LPTV or not. So WGTB-CD may have been willing to accept additional interference in order to be licensed to that channel at that height and power.

- Trip
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
First, WGTB-CD is a class A and thus auction-eligible (meaning it will either be paid to go off the air or be guaranteed a channel).

To your question, that's part of it. The other part is that stations can agree to accept interference, and that's regardless of LPTV or not. So WGTB-CD may have been willing to accept additional interference in order to be licensed to that channel at that height and power.

- Trip
I have a much worse example.
WHKY(ch40) and WMYT(ch39) are stuck with side by side channels from mixed locations.
WMYT (running just over 200k in power) causes problems to WHKY (running 950KW) in the area around the "Dallas Antenna Farm". Likewise WHKY causes problems in the South end of Hickory to WMYT, and in "North Charlotte Farm" also with WHKY's transmitter running 18KW.

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Old 03-31-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tesla_engineer View Post
I have a much worse example.
WHKY(ch40) and WMYT(ch39) are stuck with side by side channels from mixed locations.
WMYT (running just over 200k in power) causes problems to WHKY (running 950KW) in the area around the "Dallas Antenna Farm". Likewise WHKY causes problems in the South end of Hickory to WMYT, and in "North Charlotte Farm" also with WHKY's transmitter running 18KW.
Hopefully with the new channels this problem will be eliminated. But they have not yet announced where WMYT will be moving. But one interesting thing, at my location in Greenville County, SC I get both WMYT and WJZY about the same strength about 8 bars. And WJZY is much stronger power at 1000kw and WMYT only 200kw. So the height or antenna pattern must play a major role rather than just power level.
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Old 03-31-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The FCC is not requiring any stations to relocate to new towers as part of this process. It could not have done so, because there would be no guarantee they could reach an agreement to operate on a different tower.

- Trip
Yes I know. But WCNC had moved from Charlotte to a taller Dallas tower and that gave them a wider coverage area, especially to the west of Charlotte. I can get WCNC, WBTV, and WJZY but I am just beyond the range for WSOC and WCCB. And it would be easier in many markets if there was one main antenna farm rather than separate locations. Sometimes this may require 2 separate antennas or a rotor.
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Old 04-01-2017, 09:24 AM
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NBC to drop the "B"?

(NFN) Reports have it that NBC-Universal will be leaving broadcast television, as early as 2020. NBC abandoned broadcast radio in the 1980's and appears ready to do the same with television. "The significant demographics are just not with broadcast television now, and haven't been for some time", an unnamed executive said Friday.
There have been rumblings from NBC for some time about the future of broadcast TV. It is reported that the top of the corporate chain decided that the new channel alignment coming for broadcasters would mark a great point to end over 90 years of broadcasting from the National Broadcasting Company.. "No matter the current circumstances, the end of NBC-TV was coming, and a planned phase out was going to be better than a sudden pull of the plug." Contractual commitments are going to be almost entirely met with programming on subscription services. NBC-Universal has been careful recently to word contracts so that any end of over-the- air service would causes little difficulties for the corporation.
A formal announcement may be expected by the end of this summer.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:47 AM
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(NFN) Reports have it that NBC-Universal will be leaving broadcast television, as early as 2020. NBC abandoned broadcast radio in the 1980's and appears ready to do the same with television. "The significant demographics are just not with broadcast television now, and haven't been for some time", an unnamed executive said Friday.
There have been rumblings from NBC for some time about the future of broadcast TV. It is reported that the top of the corporate chain decided that the new channel alignment coming for broadcasters would mark a great point to end over 90 years of broadcasting from the National Broadcasting Company.. "No matter the current circumstances, the end of NBC-TV was coming, and a planned phase out was going to be better than a sudden pull of the plug." Contractual commitments are going to be almost entirely met with programming on subscription services. NBC-Universal has been careful recently to word contracts so that any end of over-the- air service would causes little difficulties for the corporation.
A formal announcement may be expected by the end of this summer.
Well that would really screw WRAL and make WNCN look like geniuses. Time will tell what will actually happen.
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:32 AM
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Well that would really screw WRAL and make WNCN look like geniuses. Time will tell what will actually happen.
Actually, we only get that NFN (National False News) feed once a year , on April first.
After I posted it. I realized it might be close to the truth, and, maybe wasn't funny. I gotta be more careful in dealing with False News.
But, on the other hand, there was a NFN story about ION giving up most of its broadcast stations, and, I figured that really was so, and, so, I did not post it on April 1.
It could be be, from now on, it might be best to leave April Fool's Day alone.
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Old 04-13-2017, 06:09 AM
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Actually, we only get that NFN (National False News) feed once a year , on April first.
After I posted it. I realized it might be close to the truth, and, maybe wasn't funny. I gotta be more careful in dealing with False News.
But, on the other hand, there was a NFN story about ION giving up most of its broadcast stations, and, I figured that really was so, and, so, I did not post it on April 1.
It could be be, from now on, it might be best to leave April Fool's Day alone.
But that isn't as false are you might think. All the networks have been talking about it in recent years.

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Old 04-13-2017, 12:09 PM
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WCWG and WLXI will be going off the air.

WCWG gets $105.7M
WLXI gets $60.2M

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Old 04-13-2017, 01:14 PM
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But that isn't as false are you might think. All the networks have been talking about it in recent years.
Newly released Repack Plan shows NBC flagship station WNBC New York is going dark for $214 million. Like I said. Let's see what happens.

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Last edited by foxeng; 04-13-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:16 PM
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WNBC programming will most likely channel share with NBC owned WNJU (Telemundo)

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Old 04-13-2017, 01:20 PM
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WNBC programming will most likely channel share with NBC owned WNJU (Telemundo)
Yep. That is what I am thinking too. maybe it has a better signal.

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Old 04-13-2017, 02:52 PM
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Old 04-13-2017, 03:48 PM
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Yep. That is what I am thinking too. maybe it has a better signal.
It does. On 1WTC, WNBC would have been 172 kW, while WNJU would be 530 kW.

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Old 04-14-2017, 05:29 AM
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WCWG and WLXI will be going off the air.

WCWG gets $105.7M
WLXI gets $60.2M
Where will the CW go?
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:18 PM
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WCWG and WLXI will be going off the air.

WCWG gets $105.7M
WLXI gets $60.2M
Where is this money going? That's a lot of money for stations that not very many people watch. I'm assuming the license holder will get some of it for giving up a channel, but I'm guessing the federal government will get most of it.
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Old 04-15-2017, 05:02 PM
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That is the dollar amount the station is receiving.

- Trip

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Old 04-18-2017, 03:39 AM
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I cannot quite get a reason in my head why WFMY is not moved to channel 31. There may be a theoretical difference in the coverage areas of WFMY and WGHP now, but there does not seem a practical difference, at least one that would require WGHP to move off its current channel to be replaced by WFMY.. Is there a transmitter move involved?
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Old 04-18-2017, 03:58 AM
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WFMY is something like 700 feet higher up than WGHP, so its coverage is larger. WFMY would be too close to WUNU, WRPX, and WHRO were it placed on channel 31. Due to WGHP's reduced height, it fits in that spot.

- Trip

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Old 04-18-2017, 07:37 AM
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Doug Lung has just posted an article on TV Technology based on a blog entry Trip posted on Rabbitears on the rational on the strange sounding channel changes. A good article. Here is the link.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/expertis...madness/280853
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:07 PM
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I'm just astonished that the prices being paid. Were there cases of people buying TV stations on speculation, hoping they could make money by selling the spectrum at auction?

Here's an idea, create a commodities market in spectrum. Buy and sell spectrum futures on the open market, just like Enron tried to do with electricity. That worked out so well for them.

Next somebody will tell me there really is such a thing.
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WFMY is something like 700 feet higher up than WGHP, so its coverage is larger. WFMY would be too close to WUNU, WRPX, and WHRO were it placed on channel 31. Due to WGHP's reduced height, it fits in that spot.

- Trip
Thank you, Trip, for the explanation.
I suppose I really do not catch what are immutable factors in determining what a station's coverage area might be. and which are variable with human engineering.
I will trust the decisions were rational.
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:17 PM
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I'm just astonished that the prices being paid. Were there cases of people buying TV stations on speculation, hoping they could make money by selling the spectrum at auction?

Next somebody will tell me there really is such a thing.
People did that. Most did not get the payday they hoped for and are now stuck with stations they really don't want or know how to make money selling advertising.

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Old 04-20-2017, 12:07 PM
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I was watching "Andy Griffith" earlier today and got to thinking about WFMY. Do they still air "Andy Griffith" every day? I remember up until a few years ago when closed captioning requirements kicked in for all programming they still would air that show from old 16mm copies they had transferred to videotape as opposed to the "edited" versions the syndicators provided. I can still remember seeing segments on WFMY that I had never seen before. A few of those segments are still missing from the DVDs even today.

I hope WFMY didn't chunk all those old tapes when they were forced to switch, but I bet they did sadly. I wish I had recorded more of those episodes to VHS back when I had WFMY years ago. It was great to see the local promos for the "themes" and groups of episodes they use to air.
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Old Today, 04:24 PM
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My cable box experienced an upgrade (right in primetime during an NBA game) and afterwards the picture quality was definite worse than previously on my 4k TV. It's less sharper and almost looks like a subpar internet stream. The PQ via my HTPC and cable card is slightly better however. Has anyone else noticed this?
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