The Official *Cleveland* NBC 2.1 Thread! - AVS Forum
Local HDTV Info and Reception > The Official *Cleveland* NBC 2.1 Thread!
p@55w0rd's Avatar p@55w0rd 09:26 PM 05-07-2002
Crossing Jordan looked horrible Monday night compared to before the sub-channels. :mad: Picture lacked detail and the colors seemed to be a bit off. What do you guys think?

rlb's Avatar rlb 06:47 AM 05-08-2002
Didn't watch it. But I will make it a point to look for some HD on NBC.
LowDefinition's Avatar LowDefinition 07:36 AM 05-08-2002
I keep losing the picture on 3.1 since they added the subs. The sound stays but the picture goes. Happened last night watching Frasier and again this morning watching Katie. It's not just a blink on and off either, it blanks the picture for minutes at a time.
p@55w0rd's Avatar p@55w0rd 06:39 AM 05-11-2002
Well this is just our luck here in Cleveland!!! After seeing this I am really disapointed in our local NBC affiliate. Now that we actually get a chance to have some "Prime" prime-time NBC programming in Cleveland our local affiliate reduces the bit-rate to unacceptable low rates. I have been evaluating the feed since the change and have compared several Jay Lenno and Crossing Jordan recordings from before the change to after the change and there is a significant change in SHARPNESS in the picture quality. This is painfully apparent in the usually stellar presentation of Jay Lenno. Lenno recordings where the reference recordings I used to use to show off my system with, now they have reduced the quality to just a little better than DVD. Why couldn't they leave good enough alone!
Southern Spy's Avatar Southern Spy 09:07 AM 05-11-2002
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Coughlin
I have been evaluating the feed since the change and have compared several Jay Lenno and Crossing Jordan recordings from before the change to after the change and there is a significant change in SHARPNESS in the picture quality. This is painfully apparent in the usually stellar presentation of Jay Lenno. Lenno recordings where the reference recordings I used to use to show off my system with, now they have reduced the quality to just a little better than DVD. Why couldn't they leave good enough alone! [/b]
I can see the day when WKYC-DT drops HD completely and runs NBC, PAX & Telemondo from that one transmitter.

If you can't get WDIV-DT Detroit OTA, you have option of using Star Choice to get Detroit HD
rlb's Avatar rlb 10:48 AM 05-11-2002
Quality of Leno on 2.1/3.1 has definitely been degraded. Plus, the quality of the 2.2/3.2 digital picture isn't any better (maybe worse) than their OTA analog signal.

The only possible benefit is the one I originally read here; which was that the 2.2 picture will be available as a digital channel for cable. It will probably be an improvement versus the unsat cable analog NBC feed. It's just hard to imagine that there isn't another way to give a digital 4:3 feed to cable without using part of the digital OTA spectrum.
bcolon's Avatar bcolon 09:59 PM 05-11-2002
Quote:
Originally posted by LowDefinition
I keep losing the picture on 3.1 since they added the subs. The sound stays but the picture goes. Happened last night watching Frasier and again this morning watching Katie. It's not just a blink on and off either, it blanks the picture for minutes at a time.
Whose Katie?
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 11:51 AM 05-12-2002
That would be Katie Couric...right? :cool:
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 06:11 PM 05-12-2002
What is Star Choice?
LowDefinition's Avatar LowDefinition 06:40 AM 05-13-2002
Quote:
That would be Katie Couric...right?
Yes, she's the one. My NBC problems continue. In addition to being of reduced quality after the sub-channel additions, this blanking issue continues. On my Dish 6000, I'll be watching 3-01 and the picture will blank out but the sound will remain. When I check my channel selection, it will show that I'm now watching channel 2-01 instead of 3-01. I guess it really doesn't matter anymore since the Dish feed of NBC isn't that much more degraded than what comes over the air, I guess I'll just watch that. One step forward, two steps back.
Southern Spy's Avatar Southern Spy 07:35 AM 05-13-2002
Quote:
Originally posted by Dweezilz
What is Star Choice?
Canadian ku band DTH company owned by Shaw Communications. They use DCII encryption like 4DTV. Non HD english and music programming is receivable throughout North America from F1 satellite. Regional HD programming consisting of Detroit networks + movies is available in most of Canada and northern third of US from E2 satellite.

Sometime in late 2003, F2 satellite with North American beams will replace E2. It has been reported on some other forums, that another Shaw subsiduary Cancom (uplinking company) is looking to build a HD switching center in somewhere British Columbia. Apparently, the plan is to offer 10 HD channels for $10 cdn/month to Star Choice and Shaw Cable customers. It would include Detroit and Seattle nets + premium movies + PP. As far as I can see this is only speculation. However Star Choice will have 10 more transponders on F2 than they have on E2 and no additional new services are planned for Canada in the near term. So many are asking as to what is Shaw going to put on them - HD they hope

www.starchoice.com
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 09:53 PM 05-14-2002
I HATE that new format from channel 3.1 What is the point of 14X9?? Are they sharing 'bright idea's' from FOX with that stupid format??? It leaves 1 inch on either side which is of no use at all. I did notice we are seeing a bit more of the picture than regular 4:3 but still, what's the point? For us rear-projection people, it's a horrible thing because it'll cause uneven wear anyway with those 1 inch black bands on the sides. I guess it does indeed make it a bit different than the 3.2 channel which is just the digital 4:3, but still, I can't see how this is worth their effort. I can't see that many people are going to get all too excited about a picture that leaves any black bars on the side. It's just dumb as nobody is going to watch that anyway! I watched Jay Leno & it's definately not looking as good as it did before this multicasting BS started. Man, now we have 2 stations in Cleveland that are disasters!!
JamesMH's Avatar JamesMH 12:55 AM 05-15-2002
KABC in LA does the 14:9 thing too, no idea why.
Fred DeGrandis's Avatar Fred DeGrandis 03:15 PM 05-15-2002
I flipped on NBC last night, and I noticed the 14:9 crap too:)

Leno doesnt look as good either:mad:

There are only 2 shows in HD on NBC.
(I dont know how everyone else feels, but I would rather watch Law & Order(all 3 shows), Friends, ER, and more, instead of Crossing Jordan!!!)

The Head engineer could come to my house, kick me in the garbage, and I would still think more of WKYC (NBC) than I do WOIO(CBS).

Go figure:D
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 03:47 PM 05-15-2002
I really wonder if NBC is going to provide primetime HDTV programming next year as speculation has it. It would make sense that West Wing & ER would be in HD since they are widescreen this year (letterbox 4:3 is more like it). I'd LOVE to see 3rd Watch in HD!!! Also Law & Order X 3 would be cool too. Come next year, if these shows are in HD, WKYC had better figure out how to maximize their HD picture!!!

-Todd
Dave Alex's Avatar Dave Alex 09:01 PM 05-15-2002
FYI-

For those who want the details, they split up the bandwidth as the following.-

Subchannel 2-1 13.5 Mbit/sec 1080i 16:9
Subchannel 2-2 4.0 Mbit/sec 480i 4:3
Subchannel 2-3 1.5 Mbit.sec 480i 4:3

Supposedly this was done to provide a 480i 4:3 digital source for some cable service. I mentioned to the engineer that there are boxes on the market including most HDTV recievers that will down-convert a 1080i signal to a 480i NTSC signal. Why doesn't the cable service just use one of these boxes? The answer given was a little vague.
SteveC's Avatar SteveC 07:19 AM 05-16-2002
I think what they are doing is great. I wish every station would do this. I have a 4:3 HDTV display so since the majority of programming is 4:3, I can watch channel 2-2 and it displays perfectly on my set(filling the entire screen). On all the other stations, their 4:3 broadcasts are sent via their 16:9 signal and are displayed letterboxed AND windowboxed(black bars on top, bottom, and sides) on my display. I realize I could use the Zoom function on my DTC100 receiver and digitally enlarge the image to get rid of the black bars. Not only does the image quality suffer doing this but there is also a significant amount of truncation around the edges of the 4:3 image. If you are watching a baseball game and the box score is on the top edge of the screen it will be unreadable in Zoom mode. As an alternative to multicasting, I wish stations would just broadcast in 4:3 mode if their program is 4:3. It will display exactly the same on a 16:9 display. I have never seen any explanation as to why this would not be the ideal way to broadcast(other than it is a little more work for the broadcaster to switch back and forth between 4:3 and 16:9). I suspect the engineers at most stations are either clueless on this issue, or even worse, are operating under incorrect assumptions about how a 4:3 broadcast will display on a 16:9 display.

Steve
p@55w0rd's Avatar p@55w0rd 09:25 AM 05-16-2002
Quote:
I think what they are doing is great. I wish every station would do this.
Steve I guess picture quality is not your main concern?

I have given up on watching any NBC programming! The picture quality is lousy compared to before the sub-channels. Why do they need the radar? Why not drop this channel and put the 1.5 mbs back in 2.1. That might offer the improvement TRUE HD fanatics like myself want above any thing else!!!!!



Quote:
If you can't get WDIV-DT Detroit OTA, you have option of using Star Choice to get Detroit HD
What is the Digital assignment of WDIV-DT Detroit OTA? Who can receive this channel in Cleveland?
jtighe's Avatar jtighe 04:32 PM 05-17-2002
I have a dish 6000 with an 8vsb tuner and am having some of the problems that everyone sees..

Today, on 3.3 this morning ( the radar ) I could only see the picture when i changed uo to 5.1. It flashed on the screen for 1 second and than changed to 5.1

I have also have seen picture drop outs on 3.1 and 3.2

WOIO is so bad that it is not watchable..

Could this be a problem with the 8vsb in the dish 6000?

Are there any better tuners on the market for off the air hdtv???
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 05:46 PM 05-17-2002
The radar does the same thing for me depending on the day. Some days it will be there, others I only see it when I change channels or re-format with my * button. I have no clue why. WKYC was having problems the last couple days with their 3.1 channel. It had green sections over the picture & was breaking up. It wasn't a signal strength issue as 3.2 came in at the same strength, but was fine. It must have been an issue at the station. WOIO CBS was the same as always this week. They actually got the switch flipping correct with CSI this week!!! Miracles do happen!! ;) My signal was around 61 for most of the show but I did have about a 10 second breakup in the 1st 1/2 of the show. Other than that it was fine. PQ was very good.

As for the SteveC; dude, I'm not sure you are thinking this through 100%. It's your opinion of course & that is yours to have, but what you are wishing for is MULTICASTING which in turn provides for a worse HDTV picture. The engineers do realize the 4:3 vs. 16x9 problem. Since every station in the country is doing the same thing, I doubt it's something they are missing. The problem is that the equiptment at this time, is not capable of sending a 4:3 digital signal alternating with a 16:9 HDTV signal on the same channel. I'm sure this will change in the future, but with today's equiptment, they can't do it.

Bottom line is you won't have a 4:3 TV forever & if all stations split into 3 like WKYC, degraded HDTV is all you are getting in return for the one 4:3 digital picture. That is not a good trade-off. So when you watch HDTV on your 4:3, you are getting WORSE PQ in order for your 4:3 "Friends" to fill your screen. I don't know about you, but being able to watch 4:3 material in pure 4:3 only at the expense of the HDTV picture defeats the whole thing. I don't have a 4:3 HDTV, but if I did I sure wouldn't want bad quality HDTV in trade for a 4:3 multicast station. Why get an HDTV then? In that case, HDTV will not make it in this country, as it truely won't be that much better than SD.

-Todd
ted_b's Avatar ted_b 09:49 PM 05-17-2002
I agree, the pq on 2-1 is degraded (watching Leno right now) ...The doomsayers were right on this one; mulitcasting is more valuable to the broadcasters than broadband hd! Oh boy, 24 hr doppler radar.

Who would have thought that, in some real ways, we'd refer to 1999-2000 (Leno, Monday Night Football, Super Bowl, NFL Playoffs, etc.) as the "good old days of HD"!
Ted
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 10:11 PM 05-17-2002
Unfortunately, over a year ago they said THIS would be the downfall of HD...multicasting. I recall reading over & over that it isn't even set in stone that broadcasters are going to even use their digital bandwidth for HDTV vs. multicasting. The horror is coming true I'm affraid!! Damn. Let's hope this is not a trend; only a mistake they will correct in the future!
Southern Spy's Avatar Southern Spy 07:24 AM 05-18-2002
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Coughlin


What is the Digital assignment of WDIV-DT Detroit OTA?
45

Link to North American TV DXer database:

http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bn...b/tvdb_qth.htm
MrCrowley's Avatar MrCrowley 04:27 PM 05-18-2002
Did yous notice a dropout during the race?


Mr. Crowley
Dweezilz's Avatar Dweezilz 08:59 PM 05-18-2002
The video was very unstable as the signal today was also not good. Even WOIO was more stable today & it had about the same signal stength or even less then NBC! Before the race started, I was getting the green patching on the screen & breaking up of video. I've never seen it like this as it was actually stuttering it was so choppy. I moved my cable from my antenna around like 10 times & finally the green disapeared & then it was fairly stable but not great. I don't know if moving the cable helped or WKYC did something to help the problem. All I can say is that before they did this multicasting I did not have a problem with their signal dropping out. When the picture was there, it did look pretty nice since outdoor HDTV always shows HD at it's best. I was just thinking what it could have looked like with a higher data-rate. Get rid of that damn radar for goodness sakes & add that back to 3.1!!!
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