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post #6541 of 6830 Old 08-24-2010, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

Well, when I bought the TV over at the Ultra Store, the rep told me that there some people that were returning sets because of hum. Ancedotal evidence suggests hum typically occurs above 7200 to 7400 feet (based on the altitude of the people returning sets). I have no idea what the sample size is though (2? 5? 10?). And, how many people that live above 7200 feet have had no problems? Don't know. I live at 6800 ft in Briargate and everything works great so far.

It's completely dependent on the set.
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post #6542 of 6830 Old 08-25-2010, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

It's completely dependent on the set.

Yup. And, I don't know what models were returned.
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post #6543 of 6830 Old 08-25-2010, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

Yup. And, I don't know what models were returned.

Each set states its rated maximum elevation somewhere in the technical details. I found it for the sets I was looking at. Most of them were at 9,000ft MSL so people returning these must have been buying very low end sets that are probably just tech for five years ago with a newer bezel.

Scott
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post #6544 of 6830 Old 08-25-2010, 05:47 PM
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Just saw this news bulletin.

Just states KRDO and D* reached agreement.
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post #6545 of 6830 Old 08-25-2010, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottlindner View Post

I gotta ask.. just for PBS?

Yes, pretty much just for that. I think my total cost was more like $250 which is really not bad since there are no recurring costs. Compared to the annual cost of cable or one of the pay satellite networks it's not bad.

Also, I've been playing around with the NBC Ku Band broadcasts from AMC-1 (aka GE-1). The technical quality is insanely high. Compare this local OTA NBC stream:

Code:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'KOAA-2010-08-25.ts':
  Duration: 00:04:58.39, start: 13015.599656, bitrate: 15855 kb/s
  Program 1 
    Stream #0.0[0x31]: Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p, 1920x1080 [PAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 16300 kb/s, 32.11 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
    Stream #0.1[0x34](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1, s16, 384 kb/s
To this sample from the satellite:

Code:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'sattest-2010-08-23.ts':
  Duration: 01:36:00.38, start: 84541.859567, bitrate: 25373 kb/s
  Program 3 
    Stream #0.0[0x264]: Video: h264, yuvj420p, 1920x1080 [PAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 126.58 fps, 59.94 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
    Stream #0.1[0x353](aaa): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.2[0x354](aac): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.3[0x355](aae): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.4[0x356](aag): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.5[0x1fda]: Data: [6][0][0][0] / 0x0006
    Stream #0.6[0x401]: Data: [241][0][0][0] / 0x00F1
Check out the bit rate and the frames per second. And need I mention the complete absence of local weather alerts? Now, if only NBC would start broadcasting something worth watching this fall.
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post #6546 of 6830 Old 08-25-2010, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatoViejo View Post

Yes, pretty much just for that. I think my total cost was more like $250 which is really not bad since there are no recurring costs. Compared to the annual cost of cable or one of the pay satellite networks it's not bad.

Also, I've been playing around with the NBC Ku Band broadcasts from AMC-1 (aka GE-1). The technical quality is insanely high. Compare this local OTA NBC stream:

Code:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'KOAA-2010-08-25.ts':
  Duration: 00:04:58.39, start: 13015.599656, bitrate: 15855 kb/s
  Program 1 
    Stream #0.0[0x31]: Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p, 1920x1080 [PAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 16300 kb/s, 32.11 fps, 29.97 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
    Stream #0.1[0x34](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1, s16, 384 kb/s
To this sample from the satellite:

Code:
Input #0, mpegts, from 'sattest-2010-08-23.ts':
  Duration: 01:36:00.38, start: 84541.859567, bitrate: 25373 kb/s
  Program 3 
    Stream #0.0[0x264]: Video: h264, yuvj420p, 1920x1080 [PAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 126.58 fps, 59.94 tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
    Stream #0.1[0x353](aaa): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.2[0x354](aac): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.3[0x355](aae): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.4[0x356](aag): Audio: mp2, 48000 Hz, 2 channels, s16, 384 kb/s
    Stream #0.5[0x1fda]: Data: [6][0][0][0] / 0x0006
    Stream #0.6[0x401]: Data: [241][0][0][0] / 0x00F1
Check out the bit rate and the frames per second. And need I mention the complete absence of local weather alerts? Now, if only NBC would start broadcasting something worth watching this fall.

Hi Gato,
OK, I'm lost here. I see the bit rate on OTA is 15855 kbps vs 25375 kbps satellite (dayam! That's high.) and the frame rate is 32.11 fps OTA vs 126.58 fps satellite. I thought we saw things at 24 fps. Can our TV's handle 126 fps? Also is the satellite feed a 1080p transmission (my TV shows KOAA OTA and cable as 1080i)? I'll bet those Sunday night football games are incredibly sharp. I checked the image quality on my TV for the game sunday night for the first time - I was impressed even if it did say 1080i. You could see Favre's stubble on his face. BTW what are the other PIDs on the satellite feed. They look like audio, but of what? Are there 8 channels (0.1 thru 0.4) of audio each 24 kHz wide over a data rate of 384 kbps?

BTW I'm curious, how does our pathetic KTSC OTA signal compare with the PBS satellite feed?

A couple of questions on your satellite system, I was wondering if you used a mail order firm or someone local. Also, I see a lot of talk about Free to Air (like the PBS feed) satellite transmissions. It used to be you could buy satellite packages (back in the old C-Band days) for programming that wasn't FTA. Is that still possible? For example, can one subscribe to Ku-Band satellite feeds of Discovery, History, and Weather Channel for example? These are of course the same feeds the cable companies get before they compress the heck out of them. Thanks in advance for any information.
Cheers.
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post #6547 of 6830 Old 08-26-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

Hi Gato,
OK, I'm lost here. I see the bit rate on OTA is 15855 kbps vs 25375 kbps satellite (dayam! That's high.) and the frame rate is 32.11 fps OTA vs 126.58 fps satellite. I thought we saw things at 24 fps. Can our TV's handle 126 fps? Also is the satellite feed a 1080p transmission (my TV shows KOAA OTA and cable as 1080i)? .

First, this is an interlaced signal so the 126 fps number refers to fields per second, not full frames. This still is enough data to deinterlace and transcode into 1080p@60hz. It is the job of your system (software + hardware) to convert the data stream into something your set can use. In my case, the software (mplayer) just has to throw the fields at the nvidia card (the hardware) through the VDPAU interface and tells it to deinterlace them. The card makes sense of it all and drives the TV at its native resolution and refresh rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

I'll bet those Sunday night football games are incredibly sharp. I checked the image quality on my TV for the game sunday night for the first time - I was impressed even if it did say 1080i. You could see Favre's stubble on his face.

If there is little difference from frame to frame then you can get plenty of detail even with a low bit rate. The most challenging things to render seem to be churning water and flashing lights. If you could see Favre's stubble while he ran through crashing surf with cameras flashing, that would be impressive. Doing it while he stands around scratching himself is not a big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

BTW what are the other PIDs on the satellite feed. They look like audio, but of what? Are there 8 channels (0.1 thru 0.4) of audio each 24 kHz wide over a data rate of 384 kbps?

This turned out to be variable, and may pose the biggest challenge in making use of this. Sometimes, one stream was the left side (front plus rear) and another was the right side, with the others consisting of background music and sounds. Sometimes, one was a stereo signal and the others were silent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

BTW I'm curious, how does our pathetic KTSC OTA signal compare with the PBS satellite feed?

I'll grab a sample later and post the numbers, but it will just make you sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

A couple of questions on your satellite system, I was wondering if you used a mail order firm or someone local.

Some combination of WSI and Sadoun; neither are local.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satcom15 View Post

Also, I see a lot of talk about Free to Air (like the PBS feed) satellite transmissions. It used to be you could buy satellite packages (back in the old C-Band days) for programming that wasn't FTA. Is that still possible? For example, can one subscribe to Ku-Band satellite feeds of Discovery, History, and Weather Channel for example? These are of course the same feeds the cable companies get before they compress the heck out of them. Thanks in advance for any information.
Cheers.

I don't know much about this. In Europe, you can get Conditional Access modules for this and use them in conjunction with a capture card on a PC. Here in the US, where you are presumed to be a thief and a pirate, you cannot get programming this way because you would have access to the unencrypted data at some point. There might be a sealed box product for this, similar to Direct or Dish, but I have no interest in another one of these.
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post #6548 of 6830 Old 08-28-2010, 12:49 PM
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Hi Gato,
Thanks for all the information. A few thoughts in response to your note follow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatoViejo View Post

First, this is an interlaced signal so the 126 fps number refers to fields per second, not full frames. This still is enough data to deinterlace and transcode into 1080p@60hz. It is the job of your system (software + hardware) to convert the data stream into something your set can use. In my case, the software (mplayer) just has to throw the fields at the nvidia card (the hardware) through the VDPAU interface and tells it to deinterlace them. The card makes sense of it all and drives the TV at its native resolution and refresh rate.

OK, I have to plead ignorance here (as well as laziness - I could just go search the web). What is the difference between a "field" per second versus a "frame" per second.


Quote:


If there is little difference from frame to frame then you can get plenty of detail even with a low bit rate. The most challenging things to render seem to be churning water and flashing lights. If you could see Favre's stubble while he ran through crashing surf with cameras flashing, that would be impressive. Doing it while he stands around scratching himself is not a big deal.


He was standing still. Never-the-less, I was impressed with the overall quality of the image even during action scenes. I'm kind of the opinion that plasma with its 600 hz refresh rate and deeper blacks is a better way to go than LCD (even though it isn't as energy efficient). The PQ is amazing.
Keep in mind up until the other day, I had a 13 in analog TV. So for me the jump to HD and plasma was dramatic.

Quote:


This turned out to be variable, and may pose the biggest challenge in making use of this. Sometimes, one stream was the left side (front plus rear) and another was the right side, with the others consisting of background music and sounds. Sometimes, one was a stereo signal and the others were silent.


I'll grab a sample later and post the numbers, but it will just make you sad.


Some combination of WSI and Sadoun; neither are local.

Yeah, I was looking at the audio and trying to figure it out. Also, if you do manage to get some info/stats on our local PBS channel OTA compared to the satellite broadcast I'd be curious. One of the things I'm curious about is the amount of bit filling they are doing (I can't figure out why they do this).

BTW I was looking at equipment from Go Satellite for a PBS receiver. With OTA (such as it is), PBS satellite feeds, and Netflix streaming or DVD/BluRay disk delivery, why do I need cable?
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post #6549 of 6830 Old 08-30-2010, 06:17 AM
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Satcom15: for the same prime time program, I get 17406 kb/s from the satellite and 11312 kb/s OTA from KTSC.
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post #6550 of 6830 Old 08-30-2010, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by GatoViejo View Post

Satcom15: for the same prime time program, I get 17406 kb/s from the satellite and 11312 kb/s OTA from KTSC.

That's pretty sad compared to the NBC feed. Sheesh. I wonder how much bit stuffing takes place on the OTA channel.

BTW I noticed that last night I had no KOAA on the cable but it was fine OTA. Anyone else notice that?
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post #6551 of 6830 Old 09-03-2010, 02:17 PM
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According to a brief mention here last week:

http://springstvtalk.freedomblogging...oins-kxrm/6905

CW57 should have its own HD transmitter this week. Has anyone detected such a signal yet?
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post #6552 of 6830 Old 09-03-2010, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatoViejo View Post

According to a brief mention here last week:

http://springstvtalk.freedomblogging...oins-kxrm/6905

CW57 should have its own HD transmitter this week. Has anyone detected such a signal yet?

Just checked my TV after reading your post and it's showing 57.1 KTXU-HD.

Wonder what Fox is going to do with their 21.2 sub now? Wish they'd bring back the Retro channel. I miss Get Smart.
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post #6553 of 6830 Old 09-03-2010, 04:55 PM
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They'll likely leave 21-2. The 57 signal is MUCH weaker (0.89 kW versus the 51 kW of KXRM) and it is actually on physical channel 57, which is outside the core. As such, it is subject to being bumped with 30 days notice from the new license-holder of the channel 57 frequency. If that happens, then they'll have to shut it off after the 30 days which could result in 21-2 being the only way to get CW out to viewers if alternative arrangements haven't been made.

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post #6554 of 6830 Old 09-03-2010, 07:39 PM
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Not even a kilowatt? Less than a toaster. I guess that explains why I can see there is a signal but cannot get a lock on it. Any chance they'll turn it up? Or are they limited by their LP license?
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post #6555 of 6830 Old 09-04-2010, 05:33 AM
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My read on their application is that they wanted to get something--anything--on the air this summer before the winter set in, so they're putting something really low-powered on an out-of-core channel. The idea seems to be that they'll run this until next summer when they'll move it to an in-core channel, presumably with more power.

No point in investing in a large transmitter for a facility you'll be moving to a different channel in a year's time.

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post #6556 of 6830 Old 09-04-2010, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatoViejo View Post

Not even a kilowatt? Less than a toaster. I guess that explains why I can see there is a signal but cannot get a lock on it.

I'm getting it fine. On my Dish DVR OTA connection it's showing strength of 88 which is the lowest of any of them but more than adequate. Nothing I want to watch so haven't checked out the HD yet, but the SD isn't bad.
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post #6557 of 6830 Old 09-05-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

They'll likely leave 21-2. The 57 signal is MUCH weaker (0.89 kW versus the 51 kW of KXRM) and it is actually on physical channel 57, which is outside the core. As such, it is subject to being bumped with 30 days notice from the new license-holder of the channel 57 frequency. If that happens, then they'll have to shut it off after the 30 days which could result in 21-2 being the only way to get CW out to viewers if alternative arrangements haven't been made.

- Trip

Borrowed a spectrum analyzer from work just to nose around the OTA transmissions. I am a little over 15 miles from Chyenne Mtn with a clear line of site (not even any trees in the way). Here are some numbers that I very simplistically measured (in dBM for the Video Carrier Frequency).

Shown are the callsign, real channel, frequency (MHz), TVfool Signal strength (dBm) and my measurements (dbM). In general reasonable agreement I'd say. KKTV is problematic for some reason. I'm presuming they are still having problems with their transmitter?

KRDO 24 531.25 -32.6 -34.6
KTSC 8 181.25 -32.8 -36.6
KKTV 10 193.25 -35.6 -50.9
KOAA 42 639.25 -37.9 -45.6
KXRM 22 519.25 -38.4 -40.7
KXTU 57 729.25 -64.1 -70.0

Oh yeah, I used a simple loop antenna and rabbit ears connected directly to the spectrum analyzer. I also added in 3 dB of gain (over an isotropic signal) for the antenna.

Cheers.
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post #6558 of 6830 Old 09-09-2010, 01:11 PM
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Does anyone know the name and/or phone number for any of the DirecTV installation companies in town? I want to ask them a question before my MRV/WHDVR installation next week.

DirecTV could only give me the supposed company name which was "DirecTV Home Services" and told me to look them up in the phone book. Of course there is no company with that name listed.

Thanks!

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post #6559 of 6830 Old 09-10-2010, 09:48 AM
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Up here in the Gleneagle area I have been unable to pick up any signal for channel 57. Anybody else in this area getting a signal?
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post #6560 of 6830 Old 09-10-2010, 10:51 AM
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The signal for 57.1 is really flaky. I'm getting it fine on my TV tuner, but I got it the other day on my Dish receiver (OTA connection) and now it's gone. Noticed something else on my TV tuner, when I moved up a channel for 57.1 it stopped on 57.263? which didn't have a signal. The Dish tuner did initially pick up the station but has never had program guide info for it and it even has it for KBDI.

Was going to record Nikita just to compare to original, but would have to watch live which is against my viewing policies and there are football games on all night.
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post #6561 of 6830 Old 09-12-2010, 07:54 AM
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Up here in the Gleneagle area I have been unable to pick up any signal for channel 57. Anybody else in this area getting a signal?

I'm closer than you and have had no luck. I think you have to be in town to have a chance at this one.

However, the KXTU broadcast that is multicast with KXRM does have better quality than it used to, and is wide screen SD.
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post #6562 of 6830 Old 09-12-2010, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatoViejo View Post

I'm closer than you and have had no luck. I think you have to be in town to have a chance at this one.

However, the KXTU broadcast that is multicast with KXRM does have better quality than it used to, and is wide screen SD.

Try 57.3, that's where I'm getting it on my Dish receiver (OTA connection). I get 57.1 and 57.3 (same signal) on my HDTV. The signal is good. I'm in Pueblo West and I've always gotten great signals on all channels. Must be in just the right spot and right antenna.

I was curious and called KXTU and they said they were having problems with dropped signals and were changing transmitters to get the signal strength up.
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post #6563 of 6830 Old 09-13-2010, 10:04 AM
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I added a little amplifier in the antenna signal and now I can pick it up on my Dish 622 as 57.3 with a signal strength of 61. However there is no program guide information associated with this channel. Makes it difficult to record.
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post #6564 of 6830 Old 09-13-2010, 10:24 AM
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If you're seeing it on 57-3, that probably means there's no PSIP on it yet.

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post #6565 of 6830 Old 09-20-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radckh View Post

Does anyone know the name and/or phone number for any of the DirecTV installation companies in town? I want to ask them a question before my MRV/WHDVR installation next week.

Just in case any one else may need this info in the future, the company here in the Springs is DirecTV Home Services and their number is 391-3906.

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post #6566 of 6830 Old 09-29-2010, 09:55 PM
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I may be switching from Dish to ConCast, mainly for sports channels offered for college football (wasn't planning on it until next season, but if I lose FSN in current Fox/Dish dispute it will happen earlier).

Would like to get opinions on ConCast PQ of the cable channels (don't care about locals as I have OTA antenna). Also, is FSNRM HD 24/7 or just for certain games.
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post #6567 of 6830 Old 10-09-2010, 03:39 PM
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I may be switching from Dish to ConCast, mainly for sports channels offered for college football (wasn't planning on it until next season, but if I lose FSN in current Fox/Dish dispute it will happen earlier).

Would like to get opinions on ConCast PQ of the cable channels (don't care about locals as I have OTA antenna). Also, is FSNRM HD 24/7 or just for certain games.

In general Comcast HD PQ is pretty good. I have a 42 in Panny G25 plasma. Not sure about Comcast in the long run given the potential purchase of NBC/Universal, or for that matter Dish or DirecTV. If Comcast does get NBC, does that mean we'll be pushed towards those programs? Does that mean higher rates for Universal produced programs on satellite (or could they even be removed). I guess the bottom line, there's a lot of things going on there with respect to service and content providers. Ultimately, I have a feeling we, the consumers, will be paying more (and probably get less). I'm beginning to think OTA and BluRay are the way to go.
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post #6568 of 6830 Old 10-09-2010, 05:46 PM
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In general Comcast HD PQ is pretty good. I have a 42 in Panny G25 plasma. Not sure about Comcast in the long run given the potential purchase of NBC/Universal, or for that matter Dish or DirecTV. If Comcast does get NBC, does that mean we'll be pushed towards those programs? Does that mean higher rates for Universal produced programs on satellite (or could they even be removed). I guess the bottom line, there's a lot of things going on there with respect to service and content providers. Ultimately, I have a feeling we, the consumers, will be paying more (and probably get less). I'm beginning to think OTA and BluRay are the way to go.

Thanks for the info. I have my OTA covered and not a movie fan. The only reason I have satellite/cable is for sports, mainly college football. That's the reason I'm planning to change from Dish. I would have done it this season already, but was late starting. What I may do is just switch next year before the football season when my current deal with Dish has a built in increase. I'll take a special and then drop it after 6 months and do the same thing 6 months later if possible. Even if I have to pay the full rate for 6 months it's still cheaper than now overall and I don't have to be tied to a contract. Virtually everything I watch now with Dish besides sports (mainly college football and MLB) I can get online free and legal anyway. I was one of the lucky ones with the Dish/Fox dispute since FSN RM is still available (watching the Buffs right now) - if I had lost it I would be with Comcast right now.
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post #6569 of 6830 Old 10-10-2010, 10:17 AM
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Thanks for the info. I have my OTA covered and not a movie fan. The only reason I have satellite/cable is for sports, mainly college football. That's the reason I'm planning to change from Dish. I would have done it this season already, but was late starting. What I may do is just switch next year before the football season when my current deal with Dish has a built in increase. I'll take a special and then drop it after 6 months and do the same thing 6 months later if possible. Even if I have to pay the full rate for 6 months it's still cheaper than now overall and I don't have to be tied to a contract. Virtually everything I watch now with Dish besides sports (mainly college football and MLB) I can get online free and legal anyway. I was one of the lucky ones with the Dish/Fox dispute since FSN RM is still available (watching the Buffs right now) - if I had lost it I would be with Comcast right now.

I watched some of Colo State vs AF yesterday on Comcast. Bummer my alma mater lost Still, PG was very good. Sorry to see the CU shutout by Missouri too. BTW there's a lot of BluRay programming besides movies like TV series from all the major networks and others, if I catch a series 6 months after it airs - who cares. I don't need to see Mythbusters with all the commercials anyway. LOL But if your interest is in sports, that's not a practical solution. All I know is that about the only thing we can expect is an ever increasing spiral of cost for entertainment despite the delivery method. One way or another, our wallets will be hit. I like your approach though - take advantages of the deals. Just wonder when they are going to figure that out and put the practice to an end. Good luck on your efforts.

Cheers
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post #6570 of 6830 Old 10-10-2010, 10:49 AM
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I watched some of Colo State vs AF yesterday on Comcast. Bummer my alma mater lost Still, PG was very good. Sorry to see the CU shutout by Missouri too. BTW there's a lot of BluRay programming besides movies like TV series from all the major networks and others, if I catch a series 6 months after it airs - who cares. I don't need to see Mythbusters with all the commercials anyway. LOL But if your interest is in sports, that's not a practical solution. All I know is that about the only thing we can expect is an ever increasing spiral of cost for entertainment despite the delivery method. One way or another, our wallets will be hit. I like your approach though - take advantages of the deals. Just wonder when they are going to figure that out and put the practice to an end. Good luck on your efforts. Cheers

PQ was the only good thing about the CU game and hopefully the final nail in Hawkins' coffin. I was sorry about the CSU game - only because I had the AFA defense for my fantasy team. The Zoomies are fun to watch and this year they can play with anyone. Their tickets are the best deal in sports - can't beat the games with Navy and Army just for the pageantry. That's one of the reasons I want Comcast is the Mtn network.

I hope they don't catch on, but I've been switching my internet between Comcast and Qwest for a couple of years with no problem. Haven't paid over $25 a month. You'd think they'd wake up and just give everyone a deal to keep them put (actually Qwest will to an extent), but they want to treat everyone as a cash cow. One of these days the sports and entertainment industries are going to realize the cows are drying up.
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