Obsolete Antenna? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello - I am in the process of purchasing a home and have had this place inspected by the city inspector. The city inspector indicated that I need to "remove obsolete antennae(s) and obsolete wiring".

I am no expert in OTA and antennas. However, even if this place didn't have an antenna I was looking to have one installed as I've heard good things about local OTA reception in the area.

I'm wondering if anyone could look at the three pictures that I've posted of the antenna and indicate if it is "obsolete". If it isn't obsolete, if you could provide me some information on the type of antenna so I could go back to the city inspector to inform them of this, that would be appreciated.

My goal will be to get OTA HDTV channels.

Thanks for your help,

Pulper
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post #2 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 07:23 AM
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Well it would have helped us, if you would tell us where you're at. (City/State would be sufficient) This way, we could tell you what TV market you're in, &/or what signals are available in your area. wink.gif
Barring that, hell NO it's NOT "obsolete" - obviously that "inspector" does know $hit about OTA TV reception, or that you CAN still do this in the "digital age"! rolleyes.gif
I can tell it's an all-band (full VHF/UHF) antenna - so regardless of your TV market, it WILL pull in any (frequency) OTA TV signals.
It looks like one of the larger antenna models, & looks relatively new. What kind of lead-in (cabling) is coming down from it - as long as it's (newer) coax, it should be good.
Obviously there is NO rotator, so I assume that your local TV signals come from 1 direction. (but you know when you "assume"...)
I do not see a pre-amp - but again, depending on your location, one may know be needed.

Find the incoming coax in the house, hook it up to your TV, scan it & tell us what it finds... smile.gif
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post #3 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a bunch for your reply! that's great news. I haven't closed on the house yet so can't hook it up. but, the house is in Dearborn, MI.

Perhaps I can contact the city and inform them of what you've indicated in your post. if anyone has any suggestions on this, that would be great.

From what I remember when inspecting the place, it was regular coax cable coming from it (but I could be wrong). unfortunately the place is a distance away from where I live now so I can't just go there and check it out. but i'm glad i took pictures of the antenna and i really appreciate your response and help.

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post #4 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 07:49 AM
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There is nothing "obsolete" about that antenna....it looks to be in excellent shape. It appears to be capable of low-band VHF, high-band VHF and UHF reception.
Even if your local DTV stations are all high-band VHF (7-13), or UHF (14+), it is still functional for (low-band VHF) FM Radio reception.

And, there is still the threat of "re-packing" of the TV spectrum, which could possibly mean a return to VHF channels for some stations.

Keep the antenna, and enjoy it.

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post #5 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 07:56 AM
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Well since you're in Dearborn, MI - that means you're in the Detroit DMA - & fairly close to Detroit (city). I have never been up around there, but I imagine that antenna should be pull in most, if not all the Detroit signals. From a quick check I did on the website below, you should be golden for all Detroit TV signals with that antenna! If it had a rotator, it would probably pull in other signals from adjacent markets. (eg: Toledo, OH, etc.)
As Ken said, keep that sucker & enjoy it! smile.gif

Here is a website that you can put in that address, & find all OTA TV signals around your area:
http://www.tvfool.com/

Here's another one:
http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php

But the bottom line is...I have NO idea why a city inspector ANYWHERE, is even bringing up an "antenna" on a house inspection. confused.gif
Did he say you had to take it down (to pass inspection)...or was he simply saying (he recommended) taking it down, as maybe the house has/had cable???
Either way, there is nothing "illegal" about having an OTA antenna like this on a house. Assuming this house is on a private lot (not a condo) & is not in a "historical" neighborhood, nobody can tell you to take an antenna down; it IS protected by FCC OTARD rules.

If he gives you any flack on this, tell him he really needs to brush up on FCC law - show him this link straight from the FCC. This should shut him up! (note this specifically includes OTA TV antennas)

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule
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post #6 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again everyone for your help! I'm glad to know what type of antenna this is and also that it is not obsolete and should work.

Regarding the inspection, the inspector indicated that removal was a must to pass city inspection. while there were a couple things on the report that were recommended and not needed, the antenna take down (along with the cabling) was a must.

this is a single family home (not a condo) and as far as i can tell not in any historic area.

thanks to the link to the fcc. i hope that's enough to show them that there is no problem with this antenna.

maybe i'll have to get a letter from some type of tv dealer saying that it is not obsolete and is proper? Of course, I will try the easier route first and contact the city/inspector if possible and see how that goes. If nothing else, I can show them the links to this page with the pictures!

Thanks again. Again, if any of you have experience dealing with cities on something like this (getting a change to an inspection report), let me know.

Pulper
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post #7 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 10:34 AM
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Some homeowner's associations try to ban outside antennas, but as indicated, it is against the law for them to do so in accordance with FCC regulations. And while those all band VHF/UHF antennas may not be necessary or the best choice for all locations, they will still function and are certainly not illegal. And since you are in suburban Detroit, that antenna should work fine for local channels and FM radio. Now if you are interested in Toledo, Cleveland, or Canada, then that may require a more precise and specialized set up. And thinking of Detroit makes me wish we still had the Big Boy restaurants down here in the South.
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post #8 of 45 Old 09-01-2012, 11:21 AM
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Said home inspector doesn't know crap about the FCC regulations governing this, and apparently neither does the city of Dearborn. (as well as any possible HOA). Ask for said laws / regulations in WRITING, and in the meantime - do some checking of your own on FCC regulations (several have posted good links on this). The ONLY oossible exemption for the antenna is for a DESIGNATED Historical district..

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #9 of 45 Old 09-02-2012, 07:49 AM
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A Google search of "Dearborn" and "TV Antenna" shows several references to an ancient ruling against the city for some sort of lawsuit involving antennas and (larger-sized) dishes. Maybe they are now just being "piss-y" about antennas in general?

You might want to check with some Hams, or the engineers at some of the local stations, and get some feeling for what the city's problem is, if there really is one (and, not just one inspector with a beef).

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
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post #10 of 45 Old 09-02-2012, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks everyone for your replies. I'm glad I posted here. very helpful, and now i know that it is not only an antenna that is not obsolete but one that looks to be relatively new and should pick up some good OTA stations.

Although i'm not looking forward to having to deal with the city over this, i think for this it is worth the effort.

thanks again!

Pulper
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post #11 of 45 Old 09-04-2012, 11:40 AM
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Let us know how it all turns out.

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
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post #12 of 45 Old 09-04-2012, 02:11 PM
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Two points that could legitimately be code issues:

1) It is conceivable that there is a mechanical concern about the safety of that chimney mount: after all, the chimney wasn't designed to sustain the kind of wind loading that a larger antenna will place upon it -- and if the bricks and mortar are not in good condition, this could lead to potentially dangerous damage in a high wind (especially if the antenna is heavily iced).

2) If the antenna and/or coaxial cable aren't properly grounded, there is a significant danger from lightning. Local electrical or fire codes often specify the necessary grounding.

I would have hoped that an inspector would have provided more guidance about the nature of the problem...

-- Jeff
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post #13 of 45 Old 09-04-2012, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV_Engineer_Syr View Post

Two points that could legitimately be code issues:
1) It is conceivable that there is a mechanical concern about the safety of that chimney mount: after all, the chimney wasn't designed to sustain the kind of wind loading that a larger antenna will place upon it -- and if the bricks and mortar are not in good condition, this could lead to potentially dangerous damage in a high wind (especially if the antenna is heavily iced).
2) If the antenna and/or coaxial cable aren't properly grounded, there is a significant danger from lightning. Local electrical or fire codes often specify the necessary grounding.
I would have hoped that an inspector would have provided more guidance about the nature of the problem...
-- Jeff

Them were about the only points I would have added. Without further information from the inspector. I'd be inclined to discount anything he said about that antenna. Still - taking the antenna off the chimney onto a tripod mount should take care of the structural issue, and proper wiring should take care of the electrical concerns.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #14 of 45 Old 09-05-2012, 05:54 AM
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Too bad the inspector didn't choose his words better...."Improperly Installed", or "Not to Code", would have been better than "Obsolete".

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
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post #15 of 45 Old 09-05-2012, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

taking the antenna off the chimney onto a tripod mount should take care of the structural issue

Or he could use an eave mount instead, which I normally use, so to alleviate roof leak concerns:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=RON4560&d=Ronard-4560-Adjustable-Universal-Eave-Mount-(4560)&c=Mounting


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post #16 of 45 Old 09-19-2012, 07:05 AM
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Wonder how this all turned out??

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post #17 of 45 Old 09-19-2012, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Still working on it. Have contacted the city inspection office and left a voicemail. Didn't hear back so I've called again today.
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post #18 of 45 Old 09-19-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pulper View Post

Still working on it. Have contacted the city inspection office and left a voicemail. Didn't hear back so I've called again today.
Could he possibly mean the antenna is obsolete because it has long elements for VHF low channels and he thinks all you need for DTV reception anymore is a (smaller) VHF high-band/UHF combo antenna??
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post #19 of 45 Old 09-19-2012, 02:27 PM
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I wondered about that to. The VHF low-band capability is still a good thing for FM radio, though, especially if you are trying to receive HD Radio.
And, the FCC is counting on moving Digital stations back to VHF anyway, so they can sell off the UHF bandwidth.

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post #20 of 45 Old 09-19-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenglish View Post

I wondered about that to. The VHF low-band capability is still a good thing for FM radio, though, especially if you are trying to receive HD Radio.
And, the FCC is counting on moving Digital stations back to VHF anyway, so they can sell off the UHF bandwidth.
I thought they had finally given up on that idea, since digital TV overall has worked better on UHF unless the VHF stations increased their power levels. I believe the VHF channels in DC, Atlanta, and LA have strong power levels and good signals. But other areas VHF may still be problematic. I think Chicago where WLS is moving to UHF, and RF6 in Philadelphia. And WLOS RF13 here in the western Carolinas.
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post #21 of 45 Old 09-19-2012, 04:35 PM
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You know I hate to bring this up but there is something here that has not been mentioned.
JJK
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post #22 of 45 Old 09-20-2012, 05:16 PM
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You know I hate to bring this up but there is something here that has not been mentioned.
JJK

Well - don't keep us in suspense !

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #23 of 45 Old 09-21-2012, 05:35 AM
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The inspector may have been expecting/suggesting a little renumeration for his wallet?
JJK
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post #24 of 45 Old 09-21-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJkizak View Post

The inspector may have been expecting/suggesting a little renumeration for his wallet?
JJK

If so - the inspector should be fired and jailed....

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #25 of 45 Old 09-22-2012, 02:31 PM
 
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Are you sure that this was not actually a Home Inspector? I do not see a City Inspector showing up to inspect a home to be sold, unless there was something structurally wrong with the building, and they were there to hold up or stop the sale, due to danger to persons inhabiting or entering the structure. Here is the link to the "Residential Point of Sale Program guide" for your area http://www.cityofdearborn.org/component/docman/doc_download/130-inspection-guide-booklet?Itemid=243

I am like the others, there is nothing "Obsolete" about that antenna.
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post #26 of 45 Old 09-23-2012, 07:51 AM
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That might actually make more sense. A Home Inspector is usually hired to evaluate the condition of the home, and note anything that might detract from the home's ability to be sold at the asking price.

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post #27 of 45 Old 09-23-2012, 11:03 AM
 
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kenglish, after I posted, I went through and read the info at Dearborn's site, and looks like they are trying to do Home Inpsection's, to make money for their broke city. Our city does not right now require COA's, which most use as a money grab. Looks like Detroit/Dearborn is using the whole "Home/Apt" inspection for nothing more as a way to regulate what buildings are sold, and to make money on making peoples lives hard.

I also would not doubt that their inspectors are like most "HI's". Just a glorified idiot who sat through a couple of hours of class, did not pay attention, has no background in construction, electrical, plumbing, does not know what really happens outside of their own little world, but wants to make everyone else's lives hard.

I would challenge the whole antenna thing also, because the Inspector is a idiot.
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post #28 of 45 Old 09-23-2012, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post

kenglish, after I posted, I went through and read the info at Dearborn's site, and looks like they are trying to do Home Inpsection's, to make money for their broke city. Our city does not right now require COA's, which most use as a money grab. Looks like Detroit/Dearborn is using the whole "Home/Apt" inspection for nothing more as a way to regulate what buildings are sold, and to make money on making peoples lives hard.
I also would not doubt that their inspectors are like most "HI's". Just a glorified idiot who sat through a couple of hours of class, did not pay attention, has no background in construction, electrical, plumbing, does not know what really happens outside of their own little world, but wants to make everyone else's lives hard.
I would challenge the whole antenna thing also, because the Inspector is a idiot.

I would be more concerned about what these unqualified "inspectors" are missing on an inspection.
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post #29 of 45 Old 09-23-2012, 03:07 PM
 
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A lot. Ever watched Mike Holmes, or had to go over to someone's home after they buy it, so that you can help them fix stuff, that was not on the inspection? Ours was really through, when we used the Pillar to Post Home Inspector in our town. We though did not know that there was problems with rot on the roof above our entry closet, or along the boards at the edge of the roof, where the gutters are. Because they were unseen items that you could never find without tearing off the roof.

The antenna was mentioned in our inspection, due to CATV was being used, and that the antenna is considered a hazard if it comes loose during a storm. Other than that it was common items like older wiring with no GFCI in the bath or Kitchen, fuse panel which was original to the home. The HI did not find that there was NM buried going out to our garage, nor that there was a hidden splice behind the medicine cabinet in the bath.

So really, I would go through any inspection with the knowledge, that you know more most times, than the idiot claiming to be the inspector. The only inspectors I do not and never suggest arguing with, or building, health & safety, electrical, plumbing, for the city or county. The good thing about the Dearborn COA process, is if you look at their site, they do offer a period that you can correct issues, or "argue" the inspection process if you question items they found, to call them to the table.
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post #30 of 45 Old 10-26-2012, 08:27 AM
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Found this thread on Google. I also just had my Dearborn home inspected to rent it, and was cited for the "obsolete" antenna with the explanation that the city wants to clean up the neighborhoods by removing obsolete dishes and antennae. my antenna is in great condition, secured well and the chimney is not compromised. My CofO is also conditioned on the removal. Id like to know how this turned out and if you had success arguing this with the city.
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