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post #5191 of 5261 Old 11-12-2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam_gordon View Post

BTW, a couple weeks ago, WLEX had a brownout that lasted maybe 5 seconds. It took almost 30 minutes until a signal was restored.

Was that the time somebody tried to drive their car up the utility pole down the street?
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post #5192 of 5261 Old 11-12-2013, 08:31 AM
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PS: As for WKYT ... all I can say is that with UK B_Ball season underway, we need to be double and triple checking our season passes ... and perhaps staying up late ... late ... late ...
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post #5193 of 5261 Old 11-12-2013, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Was that the time somebody tried to drive their car up the utility pole down the street?
I thought that was last year. LEX lost power I believe for that one. Last week was a "brown out", not a power loss. However brownouts can be harder on equipment than full power losses.
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post #5194 of 5261 Old 11-12-2013, 02:25 PM
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WKYT switches to generator power when there is a threat of bad weather, and goes back to shore power sometime later. Since the transmitter is not on a UPS, it can take 6 minutes to restart due to having to warm up the tubes. Also if it was a controlled switch they most likely turned off the high voltage before switching power sources to protect the tubes.

If you think 6 minutes is a long time to you, try being in the same room with a transmitter with your finger holding down the HV on switch, waiting for the filaments to timeout. (WLEX, RCA TTU-60 Summer of 1985, sign on engineer didn't show up, guess who was called in...).
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post #5195 of 5261 Old 11-19-2013, 04:44 PM
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"Where oh where has my little WKYT gone? ...where oh where has it gone....?"

Yup, 'no signal' ....AGAIN.

And 'some people' wonder why I keep pointing out WKYT's 'repeated' failures.

Edit #1: One hour in and still down.
Edit #2: Two hours in and STILL down.
Edit #3: Signal returned 9:05 PM rolleyes.gif
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post #5196 of 5261 Old 11-20-2013, 09:04 AM
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Are you positive the station is down or could it be something in your antenna system?

What type of antenna setup do you have?
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post #5197 of 5261 Old 11-20-2013, 09:54 AM
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The station was down tried to watch NCIS at 8:00 PM had a message on the tv screen.
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post #5198 of 5261 Old 11-20-2013, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Smith View Post

Are you positive the station is down or could it be something in your antenna system?

What type of antenna setup do you have?
Definitiely 'another' WKYT technical failure.
Link: http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/232588421.html
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post #5199 of 5261 Old 11-20-2013, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTownKY View Post

Definitiely 'another' WKYT technical failure.
Link: http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/232588421.html

Depending on the type of failure in the transmitter, that's not really that bad. I know its a Harris Sigma but can't remember if its one or two tubes...

As far as I know WLEX is still operating as a single tube transmitters but WTVQ has two tubes.. WDKY is two tubes, and all of the KET fleet are solid state.

I don't know if WLEX ever moved the analog Sigma to WTVQ as a backup.. Sam?
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post #5200 of 5261 Old 11-20-2013, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Smith View Post

Depending on the type of failure in the transmitter, that's not really that bad. I know its a Harris Sigma but can't remember if its one or two tubes...

As far as I know WLEX is still operating as a single tube transmitters but WTVQ has two tubes.. WDKY is two tubes, and all of the KET fleet are solid state.

I don't know if WLEX ever moved the analog Sigma to WTVQ as a backup.. Sam?
Nope. Single Tube. It is brand new however. The tube got replaced a couple months ago. The "old" one was the original (circa 2005?).
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post #5201 of 5261 Old 11-20-2013, 12:18 PM
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Looks like I'm Hulu bound next week. The TiVo only caught 44 minutes of "Supernatural" last night ... I haven't yet looked to see if there's any actual program there.
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post #5202 of 5261 Old 12-02-2013, 12:12 PM
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Recently, KET2 boxless channel 72.4 no longer tunes on Time Warner Cable. I've contacted KET, and they say it should be on channel 72.4 and to call Time Warner. I've contacted Time Warner and they say to re-scan:
Quote:
Those are free to air channels. Though the channels come through our lines we do not have any information about the channel lineup for the QAM channels. Those are also known as dot channels.

The reason why you were receiving these channels was because of the built in tunner in the HD TV which has the capability to capture the signals broad casted by the channel providers. I am sorry, there are no specific channel line up for the QAM channels. It depends on the frequency on which the channels are broadcasted.

The frequency have been changed. Please reprogram the channels and it should work.

Anyway, I have tried to re-scan and have found nothing. Are you guys having trouble with KET2 as well?

For reference, -->here<-- is my list of boxless digital channels for Lexington.
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post #5203 of 5261 Old 12-03-2013, 05:07 AM
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I think that's the same clear-QAM list I have. According to your list though, 80.1 is a duplicate of 72.4. Is 80.1 coming in? Is it KET2? If both answers are "yes", why do you need 72.4?
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post #5204 of 5261 Old 12-03-2013, 03:35 PM
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According to your list though, 80.1 is a duplicate of 72.4. Is 80.1 coming in? Is it KET2? If both answers are "yes", why do you need 72.4?

Good point. 80.1 tunes just fine. I wasn't paying attention to my own list. cool.gif
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post #5205 of 5261 Old 01-03-2014, 11:13 PM
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Do any of you have great stories or recommendations of getting indoor antenna to work for you.  I was given one by a friend and I can only pick up PBS (all 3 stations). I have the Mohu Leaf Ultimate.  I think it was bought at Wal Mart. Is this just not one to use in this area or should I trade this one for another. Any advice, tips, tricks, would help.  I do not live far from "the mall."  Those from the area will understand this and I should be in pretty good distance from the major Lexington stations.  Thank you.

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post #5206 of 5261 Old 01-06-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKSPlays View Post

Do any of you have great stories or recommendations of getting indoor antenna to work for you.  I was given one by a friend and I can only pick up PBS (all 3 stations). I have the Mohu Leaf Ultimate.  I think it was bought at Wal Mart. Is this just not one to use in this area or should I trade this one for another. Any advice, tips, tricks, would help.  I do not live far from "the mall."  Those from the area will understand this and I should be in pretty good distance from the major Lexington stations.  Thank you.
Which "mall" are you referring to? Go antennaweb.org or tvfool.com and put in your address. You'll get aiming and distance information.

A couple thing to remember...
1) Any "mileage" claims of an antenna, cut in half (at least), even if outside
2) By putting the antenna indoor, you're cutting your distance again.
3) There is no such thing as an "HDTV" antenna.

It is possible to have too much signal going to your TV. Try unplugging the USB (or whatever power) cord going to the antenna and see what you get.
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post #5207 of 5261 Old 01-08-2014, 06:47 AM
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Hi folks-
I’d be interested to know how far out some of you are able to receive the Lex stations locally.
I’m roughly 70 miles away from the majority of the transmitters, and I think I may be able to get reception with the right long-range direction antenna and pre-amp.
The one I’m most interested in receiving is WKYT; fortunately it’s also the most powerful.

Responses / feedback are most appreciated!
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post #5208 of 5261 Old 01-08-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kymatt View Post

... I’m roughly 70 miles away from the majority of the transmitters, and I think I may be able to get reception with the right long-range direction antenna and pre-amp.
The one I’m most interested in receiving is WKYT; fortunately it’s also the most powerful.

Reception at 70 miles depends quite a lot on location and terrain between.

Some people in Russell County (~75 miles SSW) reliably receive WKYT, WLEX, WTVQ and WDKY. They mostly use the old CM-4228, a few have CM-4251.

Interestingly, WDKY and WKYT are listed as strongest in TVfool, but they are the most difficult. WDKY is closer to Russell County.

Even the local cable company Mediacom (tall tower on high ground) occasionally has dropouts with WKYT

For the most part all four stations are satisfactory.

A typical TVfool chart for Russell County shows negative Noise Margins ( 50 ft AGL):

WDKY -7.6
WKYT -9.9
WTVQ - 13.3
WLEX -14.4

Hill locations show better signals, low locations worse.
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post #5209 of 5261 Old 01-09-2014, 01:07 PM
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There is a reason that WKYT may be problematic and its not signal related..

WKYT transmits on RF channel 36 and re-maps to Channel 27, WTVQ transmits on channel 40 and re-maps to Channel 36.. If the signal has issues and the PSIP is decoded cleanly the tuners tend to fall back to the RF channel from the re-mapped channel. Its the transport stream ID (TSID) that marks each signal as a reference.

Its important that WKYT and WTVQ keep their PSIP generators up to prevent viewers from being "re-routed".

I speak from experience as one of KET's transmitters in Louisville is on Channel 17 and re-maps to 15. with a digital LPTV on the next tower over that is on RF 15 and re-maps to 44. Once in a while , we'll get a call or email from a viewer in the area that is receiving the wrong programming on Channel 15. A call to the LPTV station to ask them to reset their PSIP generator usually fixes it.

As there are no receiver standards ( thanks FCC) there is no real way to predict how tuners will operate when in non ideal conditions.
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post #5210 of 5261 Old 01-09-2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Smith View Post

There is a reason that WKYT may be problematic and its not signal related..

WKYT transmits on RF channel 36 and re-maps to Channel 27, WTVQ transmits on channel 40 and re-maps to Channel 36.. If the signal has issues and the PSIP is decoded cleanly the tuners tend to fall back to the RF channel from the re-mapped channel. Its the transport stream ID (TSID) that marks each signal as a reference.

William, that's interesting.

Are you saying that if say WKYT signal drops temporarily, a tuner could revert to RF channel 40 (because WTVQ transmits on RF 40 and PSIP's as virtual channel 36)?

For a period of a few weeks soon after WKYT transitioned from RF channel 13 to RF channel 36, I did see WTVQ occasionally received on on a particular tuner that was tuned to WKYT.


The primary cause of reception problem with WKYT reception in Russell County may be elsewhere:

1. First, WKYT signal has to be in trouble before the tuner could be confused. If the unwanted channel switch does occur, that is a secondary effect.

2. Since that early observation mentioned above, no one has reported seeing WTVQ screen displayed when they thought they were watching WKYT.

(Close to a dozen set-top boxes have been used to watch WKYT, at different homes)

3. Spectrum analyzer shows more multipath symptoms with WKYT, than with WLEX and WTVQ.

(Tuner indications of WKYT signal quality degradation tends to coincide with spectrum nulls.)

4. When WKYT was on RF 13:

The antennas were much different, but symptoms were almost identical. There was almost no difference in reception of WKYT when going from RF 13 to RF 36.


It is puzzling that WLEX and WTVQ at lower power have a much more stable signal in Russell County. For many locations, TVfool lists WLEX and WTVQ as 'Tropo' with WKYT listed as 2-Edge. Of course, WLEX and WTVQ share a tower, so the path to Russell County is the same for both. In azimuth, there is less than 1 degree difference beteen the three stations. But, there may be something in the slightly different path that creates multipath for WKYT.
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post #5211 of 5261 Old 01-10-2014, 12:42 PM
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Yes it can..
HEAVY GEEKSPEAK to follow....

This is complicated..

Due to the analog digital simulcast, there were several things put in place by both the ATSC and receiver manufactuers to allow support a fall back to analog in the event the set couldn't decode the digital.

one was a listing in the TVCT table (the table that controls remaping ) for the analog channel, ( ie.36-0). The sets were able to fall back to that RF channel and there was a analog TSID inserted in the VBI of the analog signal to allow the receivers to "pair" the streams together.

Now since there are no receiver standards its the wild west on what they do.

But here is a breakdown,

When you do a scan or manual entry the receiver locates a carrier, and re-assembles the transport stream back into a stream of 188 packets, It then looks at the headers of those packets to fine PID 0, These packets contain the data that describe the stream content and how it should be displayed.

To decode the stream to video and audio requires the PAT Program Attribute Table) and PMT(Program Map Table) tables, to re-map the channels is the TVCT (terristrial virtual channel table), the MGT ( Master guide table) and the System Time Table are used in the EPG.

So the set looks first for the PAT which lists the Program Streams by service numbers and the PIDs for each of the PMTs.
In the PMTs is the list of component PIDs and a descriptor telling what that stream is ( 2 is for video, 129 is ac-3 audio).

once a receiver has that data it can decode the programming.

the TVCT ties the service number to the major and minor channel numbers (ie. 36-1) and which items in the EPG data are for that service.

The MGT tells the decoder where to find the gudie data for the stream. That data is sent out in 3 hrs blocks and contain all the EPG data for all of the program streams. This is the only data in the stream that references a program service that is not referenced by the PMT.

The TSID ( transport stream ID) is sent in the PAT and the TVCT only.

As you can see at NO point in the data does the actual RF receive channel get sent. It was part of the standard originally ATSC decided to mark that field as 0.

So now lets look at what happens...
The set finds the PAT and stores the RF channel, the Services in the stream, and then ties the two together with the Virtual Channels from the TVCT..

Example:

RF 36 program service 3 contains PMT on PID 48, Video on PID 49, and audio on PID 52 and remaps to 27-1.
RF 36 program service 4 contains PMT on PID 64, video on PID 65, and audio on PID 68 and remaps to 27-2
RF 36 program service 5 contains PMT on PID 80, video on PID 81 and audio on PID 84and remaps to 27-3

RF 40 program service 3 contains PMT on PID 48, Video on PID 49, and audio on PID 52 and remaps to 36-1
RF 40 program service 4 contains PMT on PID 64, video on PID 65 and audio on PID 52 and remaps to 36-2
RF 40 program service 5 contains PMT on PID 80, video on PID 81 and audio on PID 84 and remaps to 36-1

each table is marked with a version number and the receivers are set up update when they get a newer version.. for this example the version of the TVCT on RF 36 is 4 and the one on RF 40 is 2.

So now look at what happens:
you are tuned to 36-1, something corrupts or kills the TVCT causing it to Update.. the receiver falls back to the analog channel referenced in the table (RF 36) and tried to decode that, the receiver decodes the stream ( video and audio).. Ch 27 video and audio appear in place of 36-1 video and audio.


and it "Learns" where the valid stream is (RF channel) (as that is the "newer" version so you can't tune around it with an Up/down function.

Its even more of a headache is services on RF 36 are service 1, 2, and 3.. hence the display is 36-1,36-2,36-3...


most receivers will default to the Rf channel and service number if they can't decode the virtual channel tables and will display programming anyway. and don;t update the tuning tables until you do a scan or manual channel entry.

by remembering the tuning data, the interval between loss of programming is reduced. Its also why changing between program services in the same stream is faster than changing all the RF channels.

After the analog shutoff, most stations pulled the analog channel mapping from their PSIP generators to help prevent the above scenario.

In times of degraded signal, ( low RF, high multipath, Co channel interference,etc) the receivers may fall back to the Rf channel , service mode.

GEEKSPEAK OFF

William
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post #5212 of 5261 Old 01-11-2014, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Smith View Post

Yes it can..
HEAVY GEEKSPEAK to follow....

This is complicated..

Due to the analog digital simulcast, there were several things...

William, the noteworthy detail and explanation is much appreciated.

That kind of technical detail is difficult to come by, unless one is directly involved in the industry.

It seems you are directly involved. Based on your earlier comment about a KET station in Louisville, and recalling some of your earlier posts, you are probably in technical department at KET TV Lexington. If so, you probably have broad experience, maybe being involved with all KET stations across KY (16 or more? transmitters).

Wonder how all those KET transmitter sites are maintained?

Not being sure what FCC requires:

Is there a technical person assigned to each location? Or, are the sites remotely monitored and technical personnel only at each site, as necessary?
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post #5213 of 5261 Old 01-12-2014, 11:46 AM
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Tripelo-

Thanks very much for the reply.

I live in the opposite direction in Union, KY.
Here's the TV Fool link to my approximate address:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94a306b2797d

I was planning on using this antenna with a good pre-amp, hopefully just attic mounted:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LZ9EXI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=35DUY3O6YK98Q&coliid=I30KMEZTY7GMYI

Any thoughts?
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post #5214 of 5261 Old 01-12-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kymatt View Post

...

Here's the TV Fool link to my approximate address:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94a306b2797d

I was planning on using this antenna with a good pre-amp, hopefully just attic mounted:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LZ9EXI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=35DUY3O6YK98Q&coliid=I30KMEZTY7GMYI

Any thoughts?

You probably know, the 91XG is a good antenna. It has highest gain at the upper channels, a bit less for WKYT at channel 36.

Looking at your TVfool chart, it seems possible that you could receive the Lexington stations.

The attic location is a question; roof material and wood can cause attenuation. In Dallas area, where humidity is low (dry wood, etc), attic installations sometimes work very well. Most parts of KY have higher humidity, don't know about your location. There will be some signal loss, compared to an outside installation.

At that TVfool indicated signal strength (NM,-4.5) and distance (65 miles), every dB of signal strength is important.

Close to the ground (attic locations), there are often hot spots and nulls.

WLWT-DT is on RF channel 35. according to TVfool, WLWT-DT is about 64 dB stronger than WKYT. The adjacent channel splatter from WLWT will overlap WKYT’s signal. This splatter effectively raises the noise floor for WKYT reception. Fortunately the 91XG has good rear lobe rejection (could be ~30 dB in free space). That amount of rejection could help, but an attic installation would probably spoil the rejection a bit. So, the reception of WKYT is more complicated.

The only way to know for sure is to try it.

Personally, I would be willing to try such, without high expectations.
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post #5215 of 5261 Old 02-04-2014, 08:07 PM
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If I said "a station in the Lexington market was just off the air for roughly 10 minutes"(which it was), ....which station would come to mind first?

Yup.
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post #5216 of 5261 Old 02-05-2014, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTownKY View Post

If I said "a station in the Lexington market was just off the air for roughly 10 minutes"(which it was), ....which station would come to mind first?

Given the atmospheric challenges of the evening, I think we can excuse any and all local stations for any outages.
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post #5217 of 5261 Old 02-05-2014, 10:39 AM
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As I have said before.. it can take 6 to 10 minutes for a transmitter to re-start... depending on the transmitter and power source...
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post #5218 of 5261 Old 02-05-2014, 11:28 AM
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KU Power at my house was straining to keep up for a while - mini brownouts ~2 secs apart. It wouldn't surprise me to find that it triggered some automatic protection circuits. In fact, I'm surprised my DVRs didn't reboot.
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post #5219 of 5261 Old 02-05-2014, 03:48 PM
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With heavy demand and the weather issues, they may have gone on gen power as a preventative measure..
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post #5220 of 5261 Old 02-06-2014, 08:14 AM
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Last summer I was able to receive 700-WLW AM radio station from Cincinnatti while riding through Lexington. Including the HD Radio version. Great station with a strong signal. I had stopped at a Frisch's Big Boy and a Meijer store. But I was told on here that DTV reception from Cincy was more problematic in Lexington. But if I lived there I would maybe consider giving it a try.
tylerSC is offline  
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception

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