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post #5401 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
WKYT ...800 kW and a new antenna as well...
Yes, interesting. At least WKYT seems to be trying to improve it's coverage.

Seems in the repack allocation, they were allowed 724 kW when moving from Ch 36 to 21. However, they are requesting 800 kW, which according to 'Rabbit Ears' extends their contour from 57.5 to 57.9 miles.

To some, that may not seem like much improvement. But at the fringes, makes a difference.

Compare that to WLKY (Louisville), changing from Ch 26 to 14. The FCC allocation apparently was 454 kW at Ch 14. WLKY is requesting 400 kW for Ch 14. According the Rabbit Ears, that will reduce their contour from 60.2 to 59.2 miles.

Seems, some like to improve things as they go forward, others take a different approach.

-------------------

Note: Both stations, have a small decrease in antenna height, probably due to narrow band antennas being taller (for lower frequencies) and thus side-mounted extending slightly lower on the tower.
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post #5402 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 07:31 AM
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Yeah I don't see that making much of an improvement but you never know. I still think WDKY may try to improve its coverage since it never put a new antenna for channel 31 coming off channel 4.

Did see this. How WTVQ and WLEX will be working together.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/thewire/...pack/8471/view

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post #5403 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Yeah I don't see that making much of an improvement...
True.

Not much improvement is better than not much worse.

To me, not knowing the full circumstances, it shows WKYT's concern for technical details. And, conversely for WLKY.

Quote:
...I still think WDKY may try to improve its coverage since it never put a new antenna for channel 31 coming off channel 4..
Would be good. However at this stage, it seems as FCC is limiting improvements to paraphrase as you say 'not much improvements'.

Maybe after the dust settles on the repack, WDKY could petition the FCC to again allow a better contour/pattern on Ch 19. But, very likely their opportunity has passed, the repack has changed other stations patterns and its a lot less likely now they can get away with increasing signal in Northern & Easternly directions.

Compare WDKY at channel 31 at Rabbit Ears 31,

to

WDKY at channel 19 at Rabbit Ears 19

A few years back, WDKY had a CP for an Omni antenna, looks less likely now.

Notice the greater potential for interference if WDKY increased coverage.

Quote:
Did see this. How WTVQ and WLEX will be working together.
Thanks, interesting.

Since WLEX and WTVQ will continue to share the same tower and antennas, seems reasonable that they have to work closely together.

.
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post #5404 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post
True.

Not much improvement is better than not much worse.

To me, not knowing the full circumstances, it shows WKYT's concern for technical details. And, conversely for WLKY.

Would be good. However at this stage, it seems as FCC is limiting improvements to paraphrase as you say 'not much improvements'.

Maybe after the dust settles on the repack, WDKY could petition the FCC to again allow a better contour/pattern on Ch 19. But, very likely their opportunity has passed, the repack has changed other stations patterns and its a lot less likely now they can get away with increasing signal in Northern & Easternly directions.

Compare WDKY at channel 31 at Rabbit Ears 31,

to

WDKY at channel 19 at Rabbit Ears 19

A few years back, WDKY had a CP for an Omni antenna, looks less likely now.

Notice the greater potential for interference if WDKY increased coverage.

Thanks, interesting.

Since WLEX and WTVQ will continue to share the same tower and antennas, seems reasonable that they have to work closely together.

.

I'll take improvement for sure. I know WKYT doesn't want to lose any viewers.

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post #5405 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 10:35 AM
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There's a bit of confusion here. Let me see if I can settle it.

We're inside the 90-day post-auction filing period, ending July 12. During this time, stations are only permitted to file for what they have now, within a 1% margin. In the case of WKYT, that meant due to change in antenna size and whatnot, they filed a slight increase in power versus the frequency-adjusted FCC-assigned power level.

For WLKY, a different issue arose. That station has a broadband antenna, and broadband antenna patterns vary slightly with frequency, as dictated by the laws of physics. Therefore, at the FCC-assigned power, the 1% limit would have been exceeded due to the change in antenna pattern caused by the change in frequency, and the power had to be backed off slightly.

Following the July 12 deadline, there will be two priority filing windows to allow stations to expand. The first priority window is for a subset of stations that either can't build what they were assigned or suffered an excessive loss. The second priority window is for any other repacked TV station. In both windows, stations can file for bigger facilities or an alternate channel, to the extent they can find one.

So WKYT filed for exactly what the FCC rules allow them to file at this time. I won't be surprised to see them come back in the second window and seek more power. In fact, I won't be surprised to see just about every repacked station file in one window or the other for more power or a different antenna or both.

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #5406 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
There's a bit of confusion here. Let me see if I can settle it...
Quote:
...We're inside the 90-day post-auction filing period, ending July 12...
Thanks Trip.

That's pretty much as it seemed when reading the FCC 'Engineering Exhibit' for each station.

Thank you for filling in details that are important for better clarity.

Quote:
...Following the July 12 deadline, there will be two priority filing windows to allow stations to expand. The first priority window is for a subset of stations that either can't build what they were assigned or suffered an excessive loss. The second priority window is for any other repacked TV station. In both windows, stations can file for bigger facilities or an alternate channel, to the extent they can find one.
Interesting.

Quote:
...I won't be surprised to see them come back in the second window and seek more power. In fact, I won't be surprised to see just about every repacked station file in one window or the other for more power or a different antenna or both.
That would be good news.

Probably there many interference agreements between stations to be worked out.

Quote:
...So WKYT filed for exactly what the FCC rules allow them to file at this time.
Questions arise:

Did WLKY file "for exactly what the FCC rules allow them" ?

Did WLKY currently not have any regulatory options with respect to loss of population served?

Population loss of : 1,911,303 to 1,887,281, about 24,000 people



------------- Other Thoughts -------------------

Quote:
...broadband antenna patterns vary slightly with frequency, as dictated by the laws of physics..
Understood. But, patterns vary with design choices. Likely, there is more than one design of broadband antennas available.

Speculation; maybe WLKY and WAVE selected among choices and decided to not fight the battle now, but maybe later.

.
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post #5407 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post
Questions arise:

Did WLKY file "for exactly what the FCC rules allow them" ?

Did WLKY currently not have any regulatory options with respect to loss of population served?
Understood. But, patterns vary with design choices. Likely, there is more than one design of broadband antennas available.

Speculation; maybe WLKY and WAVE selected among choices and decided to not fight the battle now, but maybe later.
Yes, WLKY ran right up to the 1% limit. You can see it in their filing on page 8. You can see where the blue (proposal) runs up against the dashed red (1% limit) in the WNW direction.

WLKY will have the option of filing in the second priority filing window, as far as I know. I fully expect them to do so.

Broadband antennas are generally made by putting collections of panels together in different configurations. Panels, like any other antennas, have different patterns at different frequencies, so there's plenty that can be done with them, but there are limitations. My guess is that given the very wide spread in frequency, they did the best they could to match the existing pattern of both stations involved and the match was not perfect. When WAVE is filed, we'll see how close they got.

EDIT: Just for good measure, I went ahead and tested it, and WDKY-19 at 1000 kW ND passes the interference test as of right now. That doesn't rule out the possibility that another station could ask to increase power at the same time (second priority window) and create a conflict that isn't there today, but then they would both be motivated to work out an agreement.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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Last edited by Trip in VA; 06-27-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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post #5408 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Yes, WLKY ran right up to the 1% limit. ...
WLKY will have the option of filing in the second priority filing window, as far as I know. I fully expect them to do so...
Thanks.

Quote:
...When WAVE is filed, we'll see how close they got.
Will be interesting.

Quote:
EDIT: Just for good measure, I went ahead and tested it, and WDKY-19 at 1000 kW ND passes the interference test as of right now. That doesn't rule out the possibility that another station could ask to increase power at the same time (second priority window) and create a conflict that isn't there today, but then they would both be motivated to work out an agreement.
Thanks, much appreciated.

Certainly would not (did not) have guessed that to be the case.

.
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post #5409 of 5430 Old 06-27-2017, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

EDIT: Just for good measure, I went ahead and tested it, and WDKY-19 at 1000 kW ND passes the interference test as of right now. That doesn't rule out the possibility that another station could ask to increase power at the same time (second priority window) and create a conflict that isn't there today, but then they would both be motivated to work out an agreement.

- Trip
Interesting! Thanks for the info Trip and tripelo!

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post #5410 of 5430 Old 06-28-2017, 10:18 AM
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Also with the application of WKYT new antenna setup... is it going to replace the existing 36 antenna or going on the side?

The proposed Channel 21 operation will employ a new antenna system to be
side-mounted on a mast atop the WKYT-TV tower in lieu of the existing Channel 36 antenna.
The tower structure corresponds to FCC Antenna Structure Registration number 1030383. No
change to the overall structure height will result.


I remember driving by when the tower guys were taking down the analog 27. Plus they still have the former digital channel 13 on the side.

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post #5411 of 5430 Old 06-28-2017, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Also with the application of WKYT new antenna setup... is it going to replace the existing 36 antenna or going on the side?
Interesting question, jb_ky1

Quote:
The proposed Channel 21 operation will employ a new antenna system to be
side-mounted on a mast atop the WKYT-TV tower in lieu of the existing Channel 36 antenna.
The tower structure corresponds to FCC Antenna Structure Registration number 1030383. No
change to the overall structure height will result.


As you show above, the newest "ENGINEERING EXHIBIT" states the new antenna will be side-mounted. However it says, "atop the WKYT-TV tower"

And, the older Ch 36 "ENGINEERING EXHIBIT" dated late 2009 states:

"The antenna will be top-mounted on the existing WKYT-TV antenna supporting structure, as a replacement to the top-mounted Channel 27 antenna associated with the former WKYT-TV analog facility (BLCT-19890526KE)."

Since the height numbers are close for both antennas, it is difficult to understand how WKYT can now be side-mounting if the original was top-mounted.

The key must be the word "mast atop".

Very likely both antennas are mounted to a mast that extends from the top of the tower.

The Cardioid pattern is often a result of side mounting on a mast/structure.

Quote:
...I remember driving by when the tower guys were taking down the analog 27. Plus they still have the former digital channel 13 on the side.
If the Ch 13 antenna is on a side, that may be another indication the 36 antennas is on top.

An earlier "ENGINEERING EXHIBIT" for Ch 13, states "HAAT 282 meters"

The new "ENGINEERING EXHIBIT" for Ch 21, lists 296 meters HAAT.

From the info provided, the new antenna will be about 46 feet higher than the Ch 13 antenna.

.

Last edited by tripelo; 06-28-2017 at 03:16 PM.
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post #5412 of 5430 Old 06-28-2017, 04:13 PM
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Gotcha. Just the wording seems to be confusing.

The channel 36 antenna is at the top and the old 13 antenna is on the side. About half the of the size of the 36 antenna.

From their Facebook page back in 2010 of the 36 antenna that is atop.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...id=33684860765

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...id=33684860765

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post #5413 of 5430 Old 06-28-2017, 04:59 PM
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WKYT Antenna

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
...The channel 36 antenna is at the top and the old 13 antenna is on the side. About half the of the size of the 36 antenna...
Quote:
From their Facebook page back in 2010 of the 36 antenna that is atop.
Thanks for the links, although they didn't seem to work. Maybe the forum mangled them.

This is probably one of the images you referred to.



.
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post #5414 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Did see this. How WTVQ and WLEX will be working together.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/thewire/...pack/8471/view
No real change to how things are working now.
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post #5415 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sam_gordon View Post
No real change to how things are working now.
For sure! Maybe you all can talk them into less subchannels haha.

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post #5416 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post
Will be interesting..
WAVE just filed, and for 680 kW. The FCC had assigned a higher value than that (813 kW), so it looks like the change in the antenna pattern due to change in frequency caught them both.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #5417 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WAVE just filed, and for 680 kW.
Guess you see them before FCC website shows public. FCC site had it title listed but document was unavailable

Quote:
The FCC had assigned a higher value than that (813 kW), so it looks like the change in the antenna pattern due to change in frequency caught them both.
Trip, you know my main interest is receiving them in Russell County (~100 miles SE). Even though their main antenna lobe directed southeast, WLKY & WAVE are the weakest of the main Louisville stations.

The antenna dipole factor and FCC power guidelines indicate the lower frequencies of WAVE and WLKY should make the distance as well as the other 2 higher channels.

My apologies to many readers probably more interested in Lexington stations. I realize this is a Lexington thread, the Louisville station subject arose in connection with a discussion of WKYT.

Lexington stations are received in Russell County (about 75+ miles). In fact, most people in Russell County with antennas depend on Lexington stations for the networks.

.
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post #5418 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post
Guess you see them before FCC website shows public. FCC site had it title listed but document was unavailable .
There's actually a bug in the LMS code. If you come in via the "Facility" search, rather than the "Application" search, the links to the attachments are bad. If you copy the attachment link and replace "apps2int" with "enterpriseefiling" at the beginning of the address, that should work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post
Trip, you know my main interest is receiving them in Russell County (~100 miles SE). Even though their main antenna lobe directed southeast, WLKY & WAVE are the weakest of the main Louisville stations..
I can't test WAVE until tomorrow's database download becomes available, but as of right now, WLKY passes at 1000 kW. (1km cell/10 ppk)

- Trip

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post #5419 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
... copy the attachment link and replace "apps2int" with "enterpriseefiling" at the beginning of the address, that should work...
Got it, thanks.

Quote:
I can't test WAVE until tomorrow's database download becomes available, but as of right now, WLKY passes at 1000 kW. (1km cell/10 ppk)
Guess I need to send a message to station management and engineers of both stations (if WAVE is similar) to hopefully encourage them.

.
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post #5420 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post

My apologies to many readers probably more interested in Lexington stations. I realize this is a Lexington thread, the Louisville station subject arose in connection with a discussion of WKYT.

Lexington stations are received in Russell County (about 75+ miles). In fact, most people in Russell County with antennas depend on Lexington stations for the networks.

.
I dont' mind, good to know what is going on in the state with both cities. I also didn't realize that the folks in Russell County got the LEX stations.

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post #5421 of 5430 Old 06-29-2017, 11:13 AM
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Also just wondering because Lex and Lou folks can get WBKI, when is there last day on the air? Will they become WMYO CW 58.2 and the WBKI branding will just go away?

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post #5422 of 5430 Old 06-30-2017, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripelo View Post
(if WAVE is similar)
WAVE also passes at 1000 kW as of right now.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #5423 of 5430 Old 06-30-2017, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WAVE also passes at 1000 kW as of right now.
Thank you.

Would it be OK for me to mention your findings to station management?


--------------------------------------


However, it doesn’t look good for WAVE in Russell County. WAVE’s pattern shifted more toward East, resulting in a pattern minima in direction of Russell Co.

WAVE’s antenna patterns:

Current Field at 152 degrees = 0.95
Proposed Field at 152 degrees= 0.63

Looks like approximately 3.57 dB loss

dB=20 x Log (0.63/0.95)


Considering WAVE is weak now, with receive antenna gain at about max, doesn’t look promising.

If they maximize the power, WLKY may be OK
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post #5424 of 5430 Old 07-03-2017, 09:30 AM
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Keep us posted on how it goes.

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post #5425 of 5430 Old 07-05-2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Also just wondering because Lex and Lou folks can get WBKI, when is there last day on the air? Will they become WMYO CW 58.2 and the WBKI branding will just go away?
The last day on air has yet to be determined, it depends on the FCC timetable for payment.
The WBKI program stream will remain on the WMYO transmitter as a sub channel.

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post #5426 of 5430 Old 07-05-2017, 07:44 PM
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[quote=jb_ky1;53905993]... How WTVQ and WLEX will be working together.

...stations have been granted their request to move phases—WTVQ Lexington, Ky., moves from phase three to phase six...

WTVQ was assigned to Phase 3, and WLEX was assigned to Phase 6. This may be considerable help to their antenna/tower scheduling and related work.

From FCC document:

Phase 3: Testing Begins: 4/13/2019 Phase Ends: 6/21/2019
Phase 6: Testing Begins: 9/7/2019 Phase Ends: 10/18/2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Keep us posted on how it goes.
Will do.

Have been in communication with WAVE and WLKY, can update later.

.
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post #5427 of 5430 Old 07-07-2017, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Keep us posted on how it goes.
Both WLKY and WAVE are concerned about the their proposed lower power levels and antenna patterns.

WLKY indicated the filtering requirements for frequencies below channel 14 may prohibit raising power.

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That is a special situation for Channel 14 (two-way radio assignments next to 470 MHz). This is not new for the repack, many stations previously assigned channel 14 had to deal with it. Channel 14 is immediately adjacent to UHF Land Mobile Radio (“LMR”) allocations.
---------------------------------


WAVE also realizes it has both a power and antenna pattern problem. Part of the problem seems to be the selection of an antenna capable of meeting current FCC pattern requirements that will also suffice for both channel 14 and channel 36.

.
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post #5428 of 5430 Old 07-18-2017, 05:31 AM
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Looks like all of the Lexington stations have submitted applications.

No change in direction (as of yet) for WDKY-DT 19.

Channel 31 Directional Pattern
1154' 1000 kW DA (H) (57.9 mile contour / 10538.4 sq. mi. area)
0.75° Elec Beam Tilt; Dielectric TUA-C4SP-14/42H-1-T

Channel 19 Directional Pattern
1154' 765 kW DA (H) (58.1 mile contour / 10612.8 sq. mi. area)
0.8° Elec Beam Tilt; Dielectric TUA-C4SP-14/42H-1-T

Same antenna?

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post #5429 of 5430 Old 07-18-2017, 05:50 AM
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WDKY says in the filing that "[t]he applicant proposes to utilize the station’s existing antenna, a Dielectric model TUA-C4SP-14/42H-1-T horizontally polarized directional panel type transmitting antenna," and that model number looks like a broadband model number.

- Trip

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post #5430 of 5430 Old 10-11-2017, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jb_ky1 View Post
Also just wondering because Lex and Lou folks can get WBKI, when is there last day on the air?
October 25th. 12 noon

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