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post #721 of 7057 Old 02-01-2004, 11:02 AM
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An attenuator won't help.

13.1 and 13.2 are part of the same exact digital stream. 59.1 and 59.2 are a part of another digital stream, but are also combined. Your reciever picks up that one digital stream and pulls out the program you have selected.

Apparently your receiver is losing sync on the .1 feeds and showing you .2 feeds instead. There is a lot more data involved on the .1 HDs, but it is still odd that it flips to .2 . My receiver just shows "no signal" when I don't have enough digital bits in the signal to view the .1 .

It isn't a matter of .2 overpowering .1 as both are sent at the same power level as part of the same mux.

JL
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post #722 of 7057 Old 02-01-2004, 01:00 PM
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Hmmm, interesting. I have the Sony SAT-HD100, anyone else have this trouble with the receiver? I will also post a message in the equipment forum.

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post #723 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 08:00 AM
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Newbie here, just wanted to update the local list. WTHI 10 (24-1) CBS has been up for awhile and broadcasting in true hi-def. WTWO 2 (36-1) NBC has been broadcasting on their digital channel, but it appears only standard fare (ie: haven't seen a hi-def program yet, no Leno, etc). WBAK 38 (39-1) FOX is not on line yet and who knows when?
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post #724 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by RWB
Newbie here, just wanted to update the local list. WTHI 10 (24-1) CBS has been up for awhile and broadcasting in true hi-def. WTWO 2 (36-1) NBC has been broadcasting on their digital channel, but it appears only standard fare (ie: haven't seen a hi-def program yet, no Leno, etc). WBAK 38 (39-1) FOX is not on line yet and who knows when?

Welcome aboard, RWB. Although WTHI-DT is operating with low power right now, at least it is passing HD from CBS, as you mentioned. As for WTWO, its owner, Nexstar, doesn't seem to be very progressive with DTV, and especially with HDTV, according to viewers in other Nexstar markets. And as for WBAK, the station has filed at least two different applications with the FCC for extensions to delay the construction of WBAK-DT. I believe the last extension was just approved in October. The station states the delay is for financial reasons.

Steve
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post #725 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 11:52 AM
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Thanks for the welcome and the info Steve. No one and I mean no one around here has pushed much for the upgrade in signals. Let's face it until your main stream mortar store sales people show the consumer what they are missing it's going to be that way for a while. Right now I'm using a Silver Sensor and since I can get the TH signals I'm waiting until possibly some central Illinois stations go on-line before going with an outdoor antenna.

Super Bowl looked PDG.
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post #726 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 02:33 PM
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Anyone know if they're ever going to fix the lip sync problem on WTHR-DT?
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post #727 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 07:55 PM
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FGR41

I have noticed what you describe on an old SAT-HD100 that I have as well. I have noticed it when the box is tuned to 59.1. I have a few other HD receivers that do not suffer from this. I assume it is an issue with the "old" Sony.
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post #728 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 09:35 PM
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Ronald,

Thanks I was wondering if the box was flake'n out. I called Sony and since I had my receiver repaired w/in the last 90 days they said if I ship it off to them they will take another look at it for free. I am wondering if it's something they can even fix?

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post #729 of 7057 Old 02-03-2004, 09:43 PM
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The lip sync problem seem to be on a few channels. I use the audio delay on my avpII, by using the audio delay setup part on the DVE. When using a front projector and video processor there is a little delay even on dvds and other source, on my setup the delay is set to 35ms which works fine. But on the channels like WRTV-13-1 and WTIU-30-1 (PBS) it is so bad that I rarley watch them, for PBS I will watch WFYI 20-1 and for NBC I can pick up WTWO but as RWB has said they are not broadcasting 1080i just upconverting right now. I wish the other broadcasters were more like WISH-TV 8 (Mr. Weber I think) he is on this forum and does a real nice job with there broadcast of HDTV.

Brad
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post #730 of 7057 Old 02-04-2004, 05:47 AM
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I don't know if my input made a difference, but...


After last week's weather, and subsequent school closings and delays, I e-mailed engineering at WTHR about the very intense red and yellow "13" box in the corner of their information bar, particularly on WTHR-DT. This morning I noticed that the number and box were gone. Makes me feel much better about the wife watching NBC all day with that thing hurting my plasma. Thanks go out to WTHR for doing this. Now, if they could fix that lip-sync problem, things would be golden.

bakem
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post #731 of 7057 Old 02-04-2004, 05:57 AM
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Sorry, I know there is a forum area already setup for this, but it seems more Hoosiers visit here. I think it could be a good time if something like this could happen. My wife and I attended a forum meeting for Pacer fans and had a great time. If anyone is really interested check out the meeting forum and we'll see if we can get something going.

John
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post #732 of 7057 Old 02-04-2004, 06:56 AM
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Here is a link for a meeting for us in Indiana.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=347407

Brad
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post #733 of 7057 Old 02-04-2004, 07:03 AM
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Thanks for adding the link Brad. Been to Spencer many times to watch my sons play ball against the Patriots.

Interested folks

Matrix
BradH
Taucherguy
Kbandy
RWB
goldrich
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post #734 of 7057 Old 02-06-2004, 04:21 PM
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Any one here experiencing drop-outs,picture break-ups and audio pops during Enterprise from WNDY DT (32-1). I have been having these problems during most showings of Enterprise in HD (Wednesday nights).
I have a signal strength in low to mid 80's,with occasional drops to the high 70's. I have never seen the signal drop to zero.
I am using a 97" Channel Master UHF/VHF antenna, 33' off the ground. I am approx. 45miles from the tower.

Any input welcome!!!
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post #735 of 7057 Old 02-08-2004, 10:33 AM
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I was wondering if anyone in the Indy area does ISF calibrations, or has had their set ISF calibrated? I've tried using DVE on my plasma, but am pretty unhappy with the results. Feel free to PM me!

bakem
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post #736 of 7057 Old 02-08-2004, 10:39 AM
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Bakem,

Ken Whitcomb lives in Indy (317)696-5174 give him a call he is one of the best in the business.

Brad
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post #737 of 7057 Old 02-09-2004, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Hang
Any one here experiencing drop-outs,picture break-ups and audio pops during Enterprise from WNDY DT (32-1). I have been having these problems during most showings of Enterprise in HD (Wednesday nights).
I have a signal strength in low to mid 80's,with occasional drops to the high 70's. I have never seen the signal drop to zero.
I am using a 97" Channel Master UHF/VHF antenna, 33' off the ground. I am approx. 45miles from the tower.

Any input welcome!!!

Hang,

It definitely sounds as though you have a good antenna setup. Do you have a rotor on the mast to turn the antenna? My experience indicates that aiming the antenna is very critical for best reception results, especially right now with the crowded airwaves filled with digital and analog signals. Many of us have found that moving the antenna just a few degrees can mean the difference between a great/stable signal and one that is barely there.

I made some quick calculations to give you a couple of examples. Using coordinates from downtown New Castle to the WNDY tower near Strawtown shows that you are 34 miles from the tower and that your antenna should be pointed west-northwest (295 degrees). Meanwhile, if you have it pointed toward the Indianapolis "antenna farm" the distance is around 44 miles and using the WRTV tower as a reference point, your antenna should be pointed virtually due west (268 degrees). This example would indicate a 27 degree difference between these two towers. This is significant when aiming an antenna for digital reception.

WNDY-DT uses a directional antenna but this should not be a factor for your area, as it appears that you are in one of their strong signal areas. A map of their coverage area is available at www.fccinfo.com.

I hope this makes sense and that something I've mentioned will help your situation.

Steve
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post #738 of 7057 Old 02-09-2004, 01:07 PM
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goldrich,

Yes my antenna is mounted on a rotor. And, yes I have it pointed due west towards the Indy antenna farm. I will try pointing to west-northwest (295 Deg.), more towards the transmitter.

I am also thinking that I might be having a multi-path problem. There is a three story apartment building two streets over that is at or above the height of my antenna, in the direction of WNDY.

Also, while on the subject. I forgot to mention that I have my antenna hooked to a Channel Master 300 ohm to 75 ohm pre-amp. It is then split 4 ways to three TVs and my DISH 6000 Satellite receiver. With a great analog picture on every TV with very little ghosting!

Any input welcome on my set-up! Especially concerning my use of a pre-amp (in regards to digital signal strength). Does a pre-amp help or hurt a digital signal? Or cause a incorrect signal strength?

P.S. Thanks for the link and your help!!!

UPDATE!!!! I put a 20db attenuator at the antenna in on my satellite receiver, to see what effect it would have. It completely eliminated a problem I had with my other digital locals and satellite HD channels!
I would have an occasional vertical and horizontal lines appear for a second and then complete picture pixilization for a second and then an audio pop. This would happen on local digitals and sat. HD channels.
The only problem I have noticed lately is that Enterprise on UPN (2-11-04) had a lot of black screens, picture break-up, loss of audio, audio and video out of sink.
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post #739 of 7057 Old 02-09-2004, 05:21 PM
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I have the Sony HD-100 and also have the problem with 59.1 & 59.2 and 13.1 and 13.2. 59 has been doing it for almost a year. 13 just started a few months ago. I will be watching 59.2 and the signal will switch to 59.1 audio and video for a few seconds and then switch back. Same thing on 13 but not nearly as often as 59. It didn't use to happen at all. Sometimes it's so bad I stop watching 59.
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post #740 of 7057 Old 02-09-2004, 09:12 PM
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atmcdo: I totally feel your pain. After the Daytona 500, which will be in HD, Im shipping the HD-100 back to sony to have them take a look and try and repair it.

Contact Sony and let them know about the problem you are having. The more people that complain the more they will see it is a legit problem.

Anyone else?

HDTV and Home Theater junkie
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post #741 of 7057 Old 02-12-2004, 03:46 PM
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See my last post above for an update!
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post #742 of 7057 Old 02-15-2004, 05:23 PM
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Did anyone notice crappy performance from WTHR 13.1 today on the Daytona 500? About 1/2 to 3/4 of the way into the race I was getting all kinds of pixilation and dropout from the station as well as the audio/video being out of sync for the whole race. You would think they would sink things up a little bit better when the super bowl of racing is being broadcast in HD.

I was very disappointed and moved over to regular OTA signal for a while till things seemed to get straightened up. It did however give everyone the chance to get use to watching HD then move back to SD. Man you should have heard everyone complain, many thought they were showing old highlights from days long ago. You get used to seeing HD and when you have to go back it is shocking.

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post #743 of 7057 Old 02-15-2004, 06:55 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by fgr41
Did anyone notice crappy performance from WTHR 13.1 today on the Daytona 500? About 1/2 to 3/4 of the way into the race I was getting all kinds of pixilation and dropout from the station as well as the audio/video being out of sync for the whole race. You would think they would sink things up a little bit better when the super bowl of racing is being broadcast in HD.

I was very disappointed and moved over to regular OTA signal for a while till things seemed to get straightened up. It did however give everyone the chance to get use to watching HD then move back to SD. Man you should have heard everyone complain, many thought they were showing old highlights from days long ago. You get used to seeing HD and when you have to go back it is shocking.

It wasn't just WTHR. I saw it on WAVE DT out of Louisville and there is a thread about it in the HDTV Programming section here at AVS. Check the Daytona 500 on NBC thread and you'll see the topic crop up. Somehow not EVERYONE reported seeing it tho... altho most posting in the thread did.

-AKH
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post #744 of 7057 Old 02-15-2004, 07:16 PM
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The audio sync problem wasn't unique to the race. For some reason NBC has not gotten a clue as to how to sync their audio. I don't notice the problem as severe on any other sources. From what I can understand from WTHR, it's a network issue. Does anyone have any contacts at NBC that would like to hear from their DTV viewers?

Maybe they don't think anyone will notice !

Ken
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post #745 of 7057 Old 02-15-2004, 10:23 PM
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Here's a reply I received from WTHR last week concerning the lip/audio sync problem:

----------
Thank you for your e-mail regarding the lip sync on NBC HD programming
on WTHR-DT's DTV channel.

Although I have not seen this problem myself at home (I have an RCA
DTC-100) or at the studio Master Control, and the lip sync is OK in our
HD Master Control and on all of our over the air receivers, I have had
other reports of this from some viewers ever since NBC began airing
prime time HD, but many others report no lip sync problems, so this
seems to vary with the individual receiver and audio setup. It seems to
be exclusively with NBC network HD programming and does not appear to be a problem with the locally upconverted HD programming on WTHR-DT. In
fact, NBC did not send an HD version of 'Las Vegas' last Monday, so we
aired the SD version and several viewers who had a lip sync problem with
HD 'Las Vegas' specifically commented that the SD version carried on
WTHR-DT 13.1 did not have a lip sync issue. So, this does appear to be
only with network HD - and not all programs are cited but "ER" and "Las
Vegas" seems to be mentioned often, most reports are that the "Tonight"
show does not have the problem. We put a brand new encoder on the air a couple of weeks ago and that did not affect the problem, so it does not
seem to be with the encoder.

NBC network HDTV engineering reports that they have occasionally had
similar feedback from other stations in other markets with the NBC HD
program feed and they are still working to see if they can determine a
source of the problem and correct it. It has been difficult for NBC
Engineering to track anything down since the reports are so intermittent
and random, and I've heard nothing new from NBC HD engineering recently.

Based on a pattern of anecdotal evidence from HD viewers, the current
suspicion here at WTHR is that it has something to do with viewers using
5.1 channel Dolby Surround or Pro Logic audio with NBC HD audio. Are
you using 5.1 channel Dolby or Dolby Pro Logic audio on your system?
Many others that report this problem seem to be using Dolby 5.1 or Dolby
Pro Logic - but we are not transmitting Dolby 5.1. NBC provides 2
channel L/R stereo on HD programs and we simply send the NBC HD audio
right through as Dolby encoded 2 channel L/R stereo, so your receiver
should be set to 2 channel stereo on WTHR/NBC HD programs. And I have a couple reports of the problem being resolved by going back to 2 channel
L/R stereo on the DTV receiver. NBC encodes Dolby Pro Logic into its
L/R audio, that may adversely affect any Dolby equipment if it is
incorrectly set and tries to pull 5.1 channel surround or maybe even Pro
Logic audio out of a 2 channel HD stereo transmission.

Sincerely,
Al Grossniklaus
Director of Engineering and Operations

----------
I tried changing the settings on my audio and DTV receiver as he suggested, but it didn't help me. Maybe it will work for others.

Chris
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post #746 of 7057 Old 02-16-2004, 04:50 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by CsquaredIN
I tried changing the settings on my audio and DTV receiver as he suggested, but it didn't help me. Maybe it will work for others.

Chris

Same here. We have a Samsung 150 that has no outboard audio processing connected to it, a Comcast (Motorola) HDTV cable tuner, and a Zenith HDR-230 (with both of the latter going into a Dolby enabled audio system). They all demonstrated the same sync problems on the Daytona 500.

Ken
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post #747 of 7057 Old 02-16-2004, 06:54 AM
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I have the same problem with WTHR and WTIU-PBS Bloomington and whats funny is WFYI showing the show doent have the sync problems. WISH -8 had the problem along time ago but its has work fine for so long I cant remember when the were off. I use a RCA_DTC100.

Brad
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post #748 of 7057 Old 02-17-2004, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Brad,

I know what you mean about the lip sync problem with WTIU-DT. Whenever I check it out it is by far the best example of how bad a lip sync problem can be with HDTV. It is way off. And as you mention, WFYI-DT had a problem with it when the station first signed on but within a few months the engineers had most of the problem corrected and now it seems just fine.

All,

I just received an update from Steve Hicks at WTHR-DT. I emailed him back thanking him for his update and I also mentioned that we are still seeing the lip sync problem with NBC programming. I hope to post his comments on that situation later. Here are his other comments.................................
............................................................ ........................................................

"WTHR is starting to insert SD commercials during the HD telecast, we started last Friday so the net result should be MOST of the time your friend the NBC peacock should not be seen. Also there has been some chatter from NBC about doing some audio in 5.1 but only talk. So for now we will still only be sending the two channel stereo with encoding for surround sound.

The one possible side effect with the switching local ad's is there will be glitches in the program stream, some older HD receivers may store these as errors and could lock up. We do not have any type of HD frame sync equipment yet to solve this problem but we are trying to get that word out. Especially since we supply the out laying cable companies with HD receivers as a way to get SkyTrak weather on those systems, it is on 46.2 (but I am sure you knew that)."
............................................................ .........................................................

Brad,

I believe you can generally receive WAVE-DT (NBC) from Louisville.....Right?
If so, do the rest of us a favor and check to see if that station has lip sync problems at the same time WTHR-DT does. Steve Hicks asked me several months ago if I knew what other NBC stations were having the lip sync problems. I've tried to get feedback from viewers in other NBC markets but so far no replies.

Also, I know that WTWO-DT (NBC), Terre Haute, does not currently pass HD programming, but does this station have a lip sync problem with its NBC programming? That information might be helpful, too. Or if anyone else here knows about other NBC stations with lip sync problems, please post the info so I can pass it along to the guys at WTHR-DT. Thanks a lot. Hopefully we can help each other and get this situation resolved.

Steve
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post #749 of 7057 Old 02-17-2004, 04:32 PM
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Steve,

I will check it out. What channel is WAVE-DT?

Brad
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post #750 of 7057 Old 02-17-2004, 06:53 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by goldrich
Brad,

Also, I know that WTWO-DT (NBC), Terre Haute, does not currently pass HD programming, but does this station have a lip sync problem with its NBC programming? That information might be helpful, too. Or if anyone else here knows about other NBC stations with lip sync problems, please post the info so I can pass it along to the guys at WTHR-DT. Thanks a lot. Hopefully we can help each other and get this situation resolved.

Steve

I wouldn't count on anything from TWO at this time. I feel for the engineer trying to work for those folks (owner). Shoot its so bad I get actual lines in my picture while the CBS signal on Ten is dead on. Guess I should be happy somethings there, but I believe Steve mentioned WBAK (FOX) is owned by the same group. Looks like I'll be waiting on central Illinois to get their act together and that doesn't sound too promising.
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