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post #9571 of 9600 Old 08-21-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by phildaant View Post
Viewers should let the stations know about these annoying stretch pictures!
Yep, do we have a list of L.A. stations are doing this?
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post #9572 of 9600 Old 08-21-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Grit and Escape are both provided in 1080i over satellite. What it sounds like is that the source 1080i feeds are showing 4:3 stretched into 16:9, then some of the local stations are letterboxing that stretched video. Fun stuff.

- Trip
Oh well, that explains the window-boxing on both the channels I guess.

The local stations like KFTR are merely down-converting the HD feeds from the satellite to SD then adding them as another sub-channel to their ATSC data steam.

Don't really have a problem with this as many broadcasters do this now to generate 4:3 SD feeds, and I merely zoom in on the window-box picture this creates to fill the screen. But what's with the stretching of the 4:3 SD images on the older movies undoubtedly being done by the providers at Grit and Escape?

I can't remove this.

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post #9573 of 9600 Old 08-21-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by phildaant View Post
Yep, do we have a list of L.A. stations are doing this?
They're not doing it all the time. Just on the older 4:3 movies and shows like the John Wayne movies on Grit
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post #9574 of 9600 Old 08-21-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post
They're not doing it all the time. Just on the older 4:3 movies and shows like the John Wayne movies on Grit
Ah OK.
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post #9575 of 9600 Old 08-21-2014, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Grit and Escape are both provided in 1080i over satellite. What it sounds like is that the source 1080i feeds are showing 4:3 stretched into 16:9, then some of the local stations are letterboxing that stretched video. Fun stuff.

- Trip
With that being the case why don't the local station present it in SD 16x9?
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post #9576 of 9600 Old 08-22-2014, 05:51 AM
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Now that is a great question that I don't have the answer to. A number of stations present Live Well and Heartland, other HD-provided networks, in letterbox format for whatever reason.

- Trip

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post #9577 of 9600 Old 08-22-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post
Interesting;

You mean the Elite can actually zoom in on a 16:9 SD letter-box image and then squish it horizontally back to 4:3 at the same time?

How do you tell the Elite not to squish back to 4:3 if you only want to zoom in a 16:9 LB picture which is what is normally needed?
Yes, it does it all at the same time. Of course, with the “Zoom” setting, 16:9 pictures will indeed appear squeezed. The Elite has a quite a few other settings, however, and one of those may work, but I have never felt the need to just zoom in on anything I was watching, so I never explored this.


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But that's the problem, Escape and Grit's pictures are really already in 4:3, then in turn within a 16:9 box inside of it (i.e. it's a window-box image). Now if the picture inside that 16:9 box is stretched 4:3 as it is on some of the older movies they show there is no "common" way to un-stretch it.
I am not familiar with Escape or Grit. But I really hate the practice you are describing. You do often see this on many commercials (but who cares about commercials?). Fortunately it is rather rare now on programs, but occasionally one does pop up. Since the picture is shrunken, it has much fewer pixels than the original, so even if you can zoom in on it, it will lack the clarity of the original. I never waste my time watching any of these broadcasts, which are, fortunately, rare.


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Well, the problem I have here is that as I explained awhile back my stupid TV (and as many others behave unfortunately), defaults to 4:3 when receiving 16:9 SD channels like COZI, Movies! (finally) along with all other 16:9 SD channels. And I have to manually switch the TV to widescreen and back when I'm finished viewing the channel.
When I use the “Full” setting, which is the correct one for HD broadcasts, both of my sets display all 16:9 SD broadcasts, like COZI, Movies! etc., perfectly. That is one big advantage - one setting “to rule them all.”

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Oh yeah;

Just crop or center-cut unless there is a specific Pan & Scan version they're telecasting.

Sometimes opening the program with the old familiar and nowadays quite sickening message ...

"This Movie has been modified from its original version. It has been formatted to fit your screen ... " [IMG]file:///C:\DOCUME~1\HARRIS~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\02\cli p_image001.gif[/IMG]
I hated those condescending messages, too. Even some early DVD’s showed this, as I recall. As I said, they are living in the past.
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post #9578 of 9600 Old 08-25-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post
Yes, it does it all at the same time. Of course, with the “Zoom” setting, 16:9 pictures will indeed appear squeezed. The Elite has a quite a few other settings, however, and one of those may work, but I have never felt the need to just zoom in on anything I was watching, so I never explored this. ...
I thought you posted quite some time ago that you routinely like to zoom in the typical 16:9 SD window-box images (that are thankfully dwindling in number) usually encountered on a station's secondary sub-channels?


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... I am not familiar with Escape or Grit. But I really hate the practice you are describing. You do often see this on many commercials (but who cares about commercials?). Fortunately it is rather rare now on programs, but occasionally one does pop up. Since the picture is shrunken, it has much fewer pixels than the original, so even if you can zoom in on it, it will lack the clarity of the original. I never waste my time watching any of these broadcasts, which are, fortunately, rare.
Yeah ...

Less pixels notwithstanding though, if the broadcaster is going to send me a native 4:3 image inside a 16:9 window-box this way. I'd just prefer they pillar-box it in the 16:9 frame and let me zoom-in on the postage stamp size image.

This will only result in a standard 4:3 full pillar-box picture that is softer due to zooming, but at least its not stretched.

The way they do it now with stretch-o-vision inside the 16:9 letter-box frame, when I zoom in on it, it fills the entire HD screen, but its in stretch-o-vision plus a softer picture due to zooming of course.


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... When I use the “Full” setting, which is the correct one for HD broadcasts, both of my sets display all 16:9 SD broadcasts, like COZI, Movies! etc., perfectly. That is one big advantage - one setting “to rule them all.”
Yeah that's called the "set by program" format mode by a lot of other TV equipment. It automatically adjust the AR format to whatever the received signal's.

None of my TVs have that option unfortunately ...
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post #9579 of 9600 Old 09-03-2014, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by HoTatII
Although in the case of these two new sub-channels at present, whenever they show a stretched picture there's really no "normal" TV format setting I'm aware of that can un-stretch them even if you wanted to take the time to.

As they're stretched 4:3 images to fill the inside of a 16:9 letter-box.

You need a way to zoom in on the picture and then compress it to a standard 4:3 pillar-box display. Don't know of any TV that can do both those at the same time.

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Actually, the "Zoom" setting on my Pioneer Elite does do this. But I think it looks better in the "4:3" setting, despite the sidebars and a smaller picture. Also note that 4:3 material will already appear that way on unstretched SD like COZI, and presumably Movies!, if they were to show a very old classic filmed in 4:3.
Not quite a single unit solution, but I select 4:3 mode on my TV then use my TiVo's zoom to size it up to full screen (with sidebars).

Wish TiVo would get the schedule for these two new channels.
_
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post #9580 of 9600 Old 09-04-2014, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lotto_pi View Post
Not quite a single unit solution, but I select 4:3 mode on my TV then use my TiVo's zoom to size it up to full screen (with sidebars).

Wish TiVo would get the schedule for these two new channels.
_
Neil
I tried it between the Tivo's zoom and the TV's, picture quality on the Grit and Escape looked fairly bad. Some one need to remind these people that TV's are 16 x 9, not 4 x 3.

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post #9581 of 9600 Old 09-04-2014, 12:18 PM
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Exactly! Do they assume that only poor people tune into OTA sub-channels? And that they must all have old 4:3 television sets?

Those with old TV's have to use those digital converter boxes to view anything these days -- and I'm sure all those boxes have similar functions for resizing the picture. So broadcast your stuff in 16:9 and let those with older TV's deal with it in their own way (if they want to letterbox it or crop it -- either way, we'll all get a better picture).
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post #9582 of 9600 Old 09-05-2014, 08:02 AM
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I saw this post on the Escape Facebook page from the network staffers.


EscapeTVNetwork The network originates in 16 x 9 HD, but some of our affiliates carry us in 4 x 3 SD. You may wish to adjust your TV’s aspect ratio to “16 x 9” or “zoom” to enhance your viewing experience.

Wanting a strong FCC to say no to the Wireless lobby. Keep the tv broadcast band for ota television broadcasters.
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post #9583 of 9600 Old 09-05-2014, 09:27 AM
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The problem is that the network is stretching certain movies from 4:3 into 16:9 on their 16:9 uplink. Then, when the local station broadcasts it, they're letterboxing the stretched 16:9 into a 4:3 image. Unless you're using VLC on a computer to watch, you can't fix that on a TV.

- Trip
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post #9584 of 9600 Old 09-06-2014, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dante_101 View Post
Exactly! Do they assume that only poor people tune into OTA sub-channels? And that they must all have old 4:3 television sets?

Those with old TV's have to use those digital converter boxes to view anything these days -- and I'm sure all those boxes have similar functions for resizing the picture. So broadcast your stuff in 16:9 and let those with older TV's deal with it in their own way (if they want to letterbox it or crop it -- either way, we'll all get a better picture).
And then they wonder why people stream and avoid regular TV completely

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post #9585 of 9600 Old 09-06-2014, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rdvegas View Post
I saw this post on the Escape Facebook page from the network staffers.


EscapeTVNetwork The network originates in 16 x 9 HD, but some of our affiliates carry us in 4 x 3 SD. You may wish to adjust your TV’s aspect ratio to “16 x 9” or “zoom” to enhance your viewing experience.
Any guesses to how many of their affiliates are carrying them in HD. My guess is ZERO.
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post #9586 of 9600 Old 09-10-2014, 04:30 PM
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More lost spectrum

http://labusinessjournal.com/news/20...tion-spectrum/


KCET and KLCS to Auction Off Spectrum
By Business Journal Staff
Wednesday, September 10, 2014
Independent public television station KCET (Channel 28) entered into a partnership with public educational station KLCS (Channel 41) to share a single over-the-air broadcast channel, the stations announced Wednesday.

The partnership will allow the Burbank station and KLCS, a Public Broadcasting System affiliate owned by the Los Angeles Unified School District, to auction off unneeded bandwidth as part of the Federal Communications Commission spectrum-incentive auction. The station would split the proceeds from the auction.

Both KCET and KLCS, headquartered downtown, will continue to operate under separate, non-commercial licenses. The channel under which the stations would operate has not been chosen, a KCET spokeswoman said.

The decision to share the channel follows an initiative by the FCC to auction off unused television spectrum to wireless providers, as wireless communication continues to rapidly expand. However, the National Association of Broadcasters has filed a lawsuit to challenge the auction, so there is a possibility it may not immediately proceed.

KCET is a nonprofit, viewer-supported station facing financial difficulties and lower viewership following its decision to become independent from PBS in 2010 over dues it owed the system.

It moved to Burbank from Los Angeles in 2011 and a year later merged with Link Media, a production company with its own cable channel based in San Francisco. KCETLink is its nonprofit ownership entity.

“We feel the spectrum auction is a great opportunity to potentially gain significant resources that we can reinvest into programs and activities we provide to the community in support of our mission,” said KCETLink Chief Executive Al Jerome in a statement.

The station did not specify the expected proceeds from the auction.

KLCS is a UHF station and is also available on cable with a reach of 16 million households. It provides PBS programming and original educational instruction content aimed at LAUSD students.
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post #9587 of 9600 Old 09-12-2014, 08:28 AM
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Well, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I just hope KCET emerges relatively unscathed. Although KCET's break with PBS may have been due to its financial difficulties, I think the break has resulted in somewhat better program content overall, and I find that I watch KCET more often than KOCE.

Perhaps PBS has "lost its way", and the program content has deteriorated. There use to be many great science programs (in addition to Nova.) and many historical documentaries (The American Experience, etc>), but these seem to be becoming rarer. Instead programs like that dreadful Antiques Roadshow, arguably the most boring program on TV, and endless musical shows are turning PBS into a "vast wasteland".

Despite the excellent upcoming The Roosevelts from Ken Burns, I think maybe PBS has outlived its usefulness.
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post #9588 of 9600 Old 09-12-2014, 09:33 AM
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Well, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I just hope KCET emerges relatively unscathed. Although KCET's break with PBS may have been due to its financial difficulties, I think the break has resulted in somewhat better program content overall, and I find that I watch KCET more often than KOCE.

Perhaps PBS has "lost its way", and the program content has deteriorated. There use to be many great science programs (in addition to Nova.) and many historical documentaries (The American Experience, etc>), but these seem to be becoming rarer. Instead programs like that dreadful Antiques Roadshow, arguably the most boring program on TV, and endless musical shows are turning PBS into a "vast wasteland".

Despite the excellent upcoming The Roosevelts from Ken Burns, I think maybe PBS has outlived its usefulness.
When I was younger, I used to watch PBS stations (KOCE 50 too) all the time for their nature documentaries. Obviously, the children/kid (show/serie)s as well back then. I miss those old days.
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post #9589 of 9600 Old 09-12-2014, 10:01 AM
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When I was younger, I used to watch PBS stations (KOCE 50 too) all the time for their nature documentaries. Obviously, the children/kid (show/serie)s as well back then. I miss those old days.
Yeah, I know what you mean. Those Nature documentaries are excellent, and, at least so far, seem to be surviving.
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post #9590 of 9600 Old 09-12-2014, 10:10 AM
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Those Nature documentaries are excellent, and, at least so far, seem to be surviving.
Yea. I am trying to remember other stuff I used to watch: Bob Ross's paintings, This Old House, Sesame Street, Nature, NOVA, National Geographic, Wild America, 3-2-1 Contact, Reading Rainbow, Square One Television (Mathnet!), The Voyage of the Mimi, etc. These days, pretty much NOTHING!

Does anyone remember the very old colored animal shows (filmed in 1970s?)? IIRC, each episode was like 30 minutes, different topics, and the ending credits showed a jeep driving in a sunset?

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post #9591 of 9600 Old 09-12-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pal View Post
http://labusinessjournal.com/news/20...tion-spectrum/

KCET and KLCS to Auction Off Spectrum
By Business Journal Staff
Wednesday, September 10, 2014
Independent public television station KCET (Channel 28) entered into a partnership with public educational station KLCS (Channel 41) to share a single over-the-air broadcast channel, the stations announced Wednesday.
This Slashdot article needs some technical help from those here on AVS:

http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/14/...less-broadband

The S/N ratio is pretty bad and it's filled with a lot of misinformation such as:

" UHF frequencies tended to be more "line of sight". Modern digital television is on even higher frequencies."

...and...

"In practice, most US digital TV stations are UHF stations between channels 14 and 69."

Argc! Argv!
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post #9592 of 9600 Old 09-12-2014, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post
This Slashdot article needs some technical help from those here on AVS:

http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/14/...less-broadband

The S/N ratio is pretty bad and it's filled with a lot of misinformation such as:

" UHF frequencies tended to be more "line of sight". Modern digital television is on even higher frequencies."

...and...

"In practice, most US digital TV stations are UHF stations between channels 14 and 69."

Argc! Argv!
I am not technical with that TV stuff, but you should post your comments (anonymous is supported). Post the URLs to them and maybe we can upvote (don't have any meta points right now).

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post #9593 of 9600 Old 09-13-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post
This Slashdot article needs some technical help from those here on AVS:

http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/14/...less-broadband

The S/N ratio is pretty bad and it's filled with a lot of misinformation such as:

" UHF frequencies tended to be more "line of sight". Modern digital television is on even higher frequencies."

...and...

"In practice, most US digital TV stations are UHF stations between channels 14 and 69."

Argc! Argv!
Clarification: The first part of the first statement "UHF frequencies tended to be more "line of sight..." is correct. This is painfully obvious to many of us living in the LA area. And KCET and KLCS are prime examples, since neither station is LOS at my location. KLCS often "disappears" completely after sundown, and even KCET can disappear for brief periods during the early evening.

VHF stations KTTV 11 and KCOP 13 are similarly located out of the LOS, yet reception is always completely robust, and was even so when they were running at reduced power.

Of course, the statement, " Modern digital television is on even higher frequencies." is complete nonsense,

...and the statement,

"In practice, most US digital TV stations are UHF stations between channels 14 and 69." is incorrect. Unless there have been some recent changes that I am not aware of, UHF transmissions are limited to chs 14 to 51, not 69. The channel numbers can be mapped to channel numbers as high as 69 (virtual channel number) however.
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post #9594 of 9600 Old 09-13-2014, 09:45 AM
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Mt. Wilson is a ridge. There is about 1800ft difference between the different stations towers. There are blockages in some areas from Mt. Harvard and other parts of the peak. Mt. Harvard is just under a mile away from Wilson. Wilson is about 5800 ft high and Harvard is at 5400 ft is jotting out in front with a clearer view of most of LA.
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post #9595 of 9600 Old 09-15-2014, 11:20 AM
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According to the Los Angeles Times website, Time-Warner Cable has made a deal with local channel KDOC to carry the last six of the remaining late season Dodger games.

A major victory for all Dodger fans' TV coverage this year; a major precedent for OTA Dodger coverage for next season!

"Remember what it was like to hear Vin Scully broadcast the Dodgers on TV? Remember the Dodgers on TV?" - Steve Dilbeck, LA Times
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post #9596 of 9600 Old 09-16-2014, 03:56 AM
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Mt. Wilson is a ridge. There is about 1800ft difference between the different stations towers. There are blockages in some areas from Mt. Harvard and other parts of the peak. Mt. Harvard is just under a mile away from Wilson. Wilson is about 5800 ft high and Harvard is at 5400 ft is jotting out in front with a clearer view of most of LA.
Hey, thanks a lot for that clarification.

Since I never was great on knowledge (or had real interest for that matter) in geology, it was always confusing to me how most of the TV/FM broadcast towers in this market are on one hand said to be on "Mt. Wilson." Yet many are actually positioned atop "Mt. Alta," said to be the highest point on Mt. Wilson.

I take it the key is simply that many times a mountainous "ridge" like Mt. Wilson which comprises a series of connected mountains forming a continuous elevated ridge or crestline is loosely referred to as though it were an individual "mountain." And Mt. Alta is the highest of the individual mountains integrated into that ridge.
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post #9597 of 9600 Old 09-16-2014, 12:44 PM
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Fol. website may also be of interest, although it's mostly about changes to KCET on Mt Alta:
http://www.fybush.com/site-20140110/
Be sure to click on the earlier Pt I and Pt II detailed descriptions of what's on Mt Alta.

I've plotted DTV Transmitter locations for various Metro Areas within GoogleEarth. I just uploaded Mt Harvard and Mt Wilson detailed views I did back in Dec 2009. Since then some of the antenna heights and perhaps a couple locations have changed, Analog Transmitters were shut down and KNET-CA upgraded from Analog (RED Icon) to DTV (GREEN):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/dtvlocations
For the latest layout, download TX Icons from www.tvfool.com, double click file to install into GoogleEarth, enable desired data in Menu on Left and carefully navigate 3D Views.





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Last edited by holl_ands; 09-16-2014 at 12:52 PM.
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post #9598 of 9600 Old 09-19-2014, 05:14 PM
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Anyone else not getting audio from "Grit TV"? Haven't been able to hear anything for the last two days.
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post #9599 of 9600 Old 09-20-2014, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan2watch View Post
Anyone else not getting audio from "Grit TV"? Haven't been able to hear anything for the last two days.
The report on another site states the local station installed some new equipment and is having issues getting evrything resolved. The network is not affected nationally by this audio outtage. It's only an LA market situation.

Wanting a strong FCC to say no to the Wireless lobby. Keep the tv broadcast band for ota television broadcasters.
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post #9600 of 9600 Old 09-20-2014, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan2watch View Post
Anyone else not getting audio from "Grit TV"? Haven't been able to hear anything for the last two days.
I see what you mean. It's in "stretch-o-vision", too. LOL.
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