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post #10051 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 04:48 PM
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I don't normally watch Telemundo but I just checked my local TBN channel(KJNK-LD 25.1) and it's currently 1080i, I'll check it later when it's technically primetime.
BTW I thought TBN was Tuner Broadcast Network but PSIP says TBN and the channel has the icon of the overlapping T's, which I assume is Telemundo and the channel is in Spanish.

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post #10052 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 07:42 PM
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1080i all primetime in my market
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post #10053 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
BTW I thought TBN was Tuner Broadcast Network but PSIP says TBN and the channel has the icon of the overlapping T's, which I assume is Telemundo and the channel is in Spanish.
FWIW There isn't a Turner Broadcast Network. There's Turner Network Television (TNT) and Turner Broadcasting System (TBS).

TBN usually refers to the Trinity Broadcast Network. Christian thing. But yeah, KJNK is Telemundo.

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post #10054 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 09:47 PM
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1080i all primetime in my market
Thanks for checking. I'm not sure why it switches here, but it's interesting nevertheless. Nice to see 1080p24 in use on broadcast.
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post #10055 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
Nice to see 1080p24 in use on broadcast.
Really? I have an old Toshiba TV here that plays 1080p24 content at 24 frames per second. It looks so bizarre, I can't watch it.

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post #10056 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 10:02 PM
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Really? I have an old Toshiba TV here that plays 1080p24 content at 24 frames per second. It looks so bizarre, I can't watch it.

Ron
It's a lot better than the telecined content since IVTC can be imperfect at times. My Sony TV seems to handle native 24fps as well, so that certainly plays a part.
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post #10057 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
It's a lot better than the telecined content since IVTC can be imperfect at times. My Sony TV seems to handle native 24fps as well, so that certainly plays a part.
But how did you suspect they were using 1080p24? Because it looked funny?

Ron

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post #10058 of 10078 Unread 04-29-2017, 11:22 PM
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But how did you suspect they were using 1080p24? Because it looked funny?

Ron
Yeah, it didn't look like the show was deinterlacing at all.
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post #10059 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 03:47 AM
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Never heard of any OTA 1080P since the start back around 2000.

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post #10060 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
Really? I have an old Toshiba TV here that plays 1080p24 content at 24 frames per second. It looks so bizarre, I can't watch it.

Ron
Really???

I had to sell our first Sony HDTV when we started buying 1080p Blu-rays, because it only accepted 50 and 59.94/60Hz inputs (480i/p, 576i/p, 720p, 1080i/p) and so all 23.976/24.000 was output at 59.94/60.00 with 3:2 pull-down. Was unwatchable to me. (In Europe almost all 23.976/24.000 content is sped up to 25Hz and 2:2 used, and film/'film look' content shot for TV is shot 25p native and broadcast with 2:2 (*))

I can't watch 3:2 stuff for more than a few minutes without finding it annoying (I use a PC to get Netflix at 23.976/24.000 as so many other platforms display it at 59.94/60.00)

(*) In the UK our OTA HD system uses H264 encoders that switch dynamically between 1080/50i (aka 1080i25) and 1080/25p (aka 1080p25) based on the incoming source content (not metadata) to improve encoder efficiency (25p carried 50i compresses less well than 25p carried 25p)
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post #10061 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CHASLS2 View Post
Never heard of any OTA 1080P since the start back around 2000.
In the UK the OTA HD platform uses H264 encoders with dynamic 1080i25 / 1080p25 switching (at a GOP-level - triggered by content, not metadata)

In Germany the new OTA HD platform is based around H265 encoding and runs with 540p50, 720p50 and 1080p50 options (They do support 1080i25 aka 1080/50i but I don't think it's in use. They don't support 576i25 aka 576/50i SD - 540p50 is used instead)

ISTR that some US MPEG2 encoders switch to 23.976p mode internally when they detect repeated fields / frames (so they don't encode duplicates and can cope with the mess of a video frame made from fields from two different progressive source frames) - and send repeat field/frame flags - but the output of the decoder is 59.94 as the 3:2 is effectively recreated by the flag?
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post #10062 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
I noticed the other day when my mother was watching KVEA (Telemundo) that their primetime shows appear to be filmed in 24fps, but it did not appear to be telecined to 1080i60.
So I recorded a broadcast last night of their 8PM primetime show and ran it through VLC, and it looks like KVEA switches from 1080i60 to 1080p24 for their primetime programming. Does any other major station do this?
1080p29.97 (aka 1080p29.97) content carried 1080i29.97 (aka 1080/59.94i) will have 2:2 not 3:2 pulldown and still have a 'film look'. Could it be they were doing that?
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post #10063 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
FWIW There isn't a Turner Broadcast Network. There's Turner Network Television (TNT) and Turner Broadcasting System (TBS).

TBN usually refers to the Trinity Broadcast Network. Christian thing. But yeah, KJNK is Telemundo.
Oops, it's been a while since I've had pay TV and channels like TBS
In regards to TBN, it's possible KJNK is owned by TBN and I'm pretty sure we had a TBN channel in my market but looking at Rabbitears.info I don't see that TBN broadcasts on my local channel 25.x
To the OP, I looked at Rabbitears.info for your market(L.A.) and it just shows KVEA as being 1080i....you might want to post in your local L.A. thread and see if anyone else knows about this and also Trip(from Rabbitears) monitors that forum and might respond. Lastly Wiki also shows KVEA as 1080i but they've been known to be wrong on more than one occasion.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php Note you'll have to select L.A. market to see your various stations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVEA
Los Angeles, CA - OTA Your local L.A. thread.
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.you might want to post in your local L.A. thread and see if anyone else knows about this
I'll save the trouble. Moved to LA thread with redirect left. Best of both worlds
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post #10065 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 01:01 PM
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Thanks for moving. Wasn't sure exactly where to post.
As for the 2:2 pulldown, I disabled deinterlacing in VLC, and there don't appear to be any interlacing artifacts.
VLC also reports the framerate change, going from 30fps (1080i60) to 24fps.
Here are some screenshots from before the program starts and during it. I tried to find shots with a lot of motion to make sure interlacing was present.
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post #10066 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 01:06 PM
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I'll save the trouble. Moved to LA thread with redirect left. Best of both worlds
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
Thanks for moving. Wasn't sure exactly where to post.
As for the 2:2 pulldown, I disabled deinterlacing in VLC, and there don't appear to be any interlacing artifacts.
VLC also reports the framerate change, going from 30fps (1080i60) to 24fps.
Here are some screenshots from before the program starts and during it. I tried to find shots with a lot of motion to make sure interlacing was present.
For reference, here's KCBS airing a primetime program shot in 24p but telecined to 1080i, with some very clear interlacing present.
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post #10067 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
VLC also reports the framerate change, going from 30fps (1080i60) to 24fps.
Can you see the frame rate change on the fly during interlaced commercials?

Ron

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post #10068 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
I can't watch 3:2 stuff for more than a few minutes without finding it annoying (I use a PC to get Netflix at 23.976/24.000 as so many other platforms display it at 59.94/60.00)
I took another look at my Toshiba TV today. It's possible that it's 24p processing is just broken.

Ron

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post #10069 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 08:26 PM
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Can you see the frame rate change on the fly during interlaced commercials?

Ron
Yes, actually. The commercials run at 1080i60 (30fps) like expected, but when the program begins, the framerate changes to 24p and there is no interlacing.
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post #10070 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
Yes, actually. The commercials run at 1080i60 (30fps) like expected, but when the program begins, the framerate changes to 24p and there is no interlacing.
Would you be willing to post a portion of the bitstream somewhere (like Google Drive)? I used to write MPEG-2 encoder firmware, so I'm a bit curious.

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post #10071 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 08:56 PM
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Would you be willing to post a portion of the bitstream somewhere (like Google Drive)? I used to write MPEG-2 encoder firmware, so I'm a bit curious.

Ron
Sure. Here's the Google Drive link to the .ts recording.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Vk?usp=sharing
Hopefully this helps to figure out exactly what's happening with KVEA's broadcast.
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post #10072 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by electrictypo View Post
Sure. Here's the Google Drive link to the .ts recording.
Cool, thanks. It's actually a 1080i stream with telecine flags. You can think of it as essentially 24p in a 60i wrapper. Here's how the flags work:

Code:
GOP size = 13, byte index = 62092068
Tref =    0, TFF = 0, RFF = 1, PF = 1, I frame bits = 1520016
Tref =    1, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 168960
Tref =    2, TFF = 1, RFF = 1, PF = 1, B frame bits = 97920
Tref =    3, TFF = 0, RFF = 0, PF = 0, P frame bits = 547456
Tref =    4, TFF = 0, RFF = 1, PF = 1, B frame bits = 131584
Tref =    5, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 109184
Tref =    6, TFF = 1, RFF = 1, PF = 1, P frame bits = 491264
Tref =    7, TFF = 0, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 114432
Tref =    8, TFF = 0, RFF = 1, PF = 1, B frame bits = 112576
Tref =    9, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, P frame bits = 475776
Tref =   10, TFF = 1, RFF = 1, PF = 1, B frame bits = 88512
Tref =   11, TFF = 0, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 86384
Tref =   12, TFF = 0, RFF = 1, PF = 1, P frame bits = 492160
There are three flags. Top Field First (TFF), Repeat First Field (RFF) and Progressive Frame (PF). Repeat First Field tells the decoder to repeat the first field of a frame after it plays the first two fields. Top Field First tells the decoder which field to play first. Progressive Frame isn't really used for anything (but it's actually a long story).

Notice that Repeat First field happens every other frame. So the decoder is going to display 3 fields followed by 2 fields (it's going to telecine the 24p frames). Whenever a field is repeated, then the next frame needs to start on the other field, so Top Field First toggles after every repeat.

The flags are used by hardware decoders which are connected to some physical 1080i interface (HDMI or component). For software decoders like VLC, the flags are just used to control how long the frame is displayed (either 33 milliseconds or 50 milliseconds). But there's no field repeating, so the content is displayed progressive.

When there's an interlaced commercial, the flags look like this:

Code:
GOP size = 13, byte index = 400320
Tref =    0, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, I frame bits = 1640080
Tref =    1, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 107776
Tref =    2, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 100992
Tref =    3, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, P frame bits = 399488
Tref =    4, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 128000
Tref =    5, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 115136
Tref =    6, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, P frame bits = 335488
Tref =    7, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 109952
Tref =    8, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 95232
Tref =    9, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, P frame bits = 246784
Tref =   10, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 118720
Tref =   11, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, B frame bits = 143344
Tref =   12, TFF = 1, RFF = 0, PF = 0, P frame bits = 351424
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post #10073 of 10078 Unread Yesterday, 10:09 PM
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BTW, looking at the video bit-stream a little closer, I'd say this is a pretty recent model MPEG-2 encoder. I'll guess KVEA just installed it, and that's why you noticed the change.

Encoder inverse telecine is a nice feature, since it enhances the encoding quality (it's easier to encode a progressive frame and you're coding less frames). But some crappy decoders have trouble with it. So what happens is folks with crappy decoders complain to the station and the inverse telecine mode eventually gets turned off.

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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
BTW, looking at the video bit-stream a little closer, I'd say this is a pretty recent model MPEG-2 encoder. I'll guess KVEA just installed it, and that's why you noticed the change.

Encoder inverse telecine is a nice feature, since it enhances the encoding quality (it's easier to encode a progressive frame and you're coding less frames). But some crappy decoders have trouble with it. So what happens is folks with crappy decoders complain to the station and the inverse telecine mode eventually gets turned off.

Ron
Thanks so much for taking a look into this, as I would have never been able to fully figure this out. Would the lack of RFF flags be responsible for other stations to display their content as purely interlaced in VLC, such as on the KCBS post?

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post #10075 of 10078 Unread Today, 05:29 AM
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Cool, thanks. It's actually a 1080i stream with telecine flags. You can think of it as essentially 24p in a 60i wrapper. Here's how the flags work:
If thats the case then would a TV or Tivo's display button show it as 1080i? That is what I was going off when I said my local Telemundo channel always showed 1080i, I didn't look at it with a program like VLC or really look at it that close to look for interlacing. I see 1080 24p on my Sony's display when playing certain BDs but have never seen it with OTA content.
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post #10076 of 10078 Unread Today, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
If thats the case then would a TV or Tivo's display button show it as 1080i? That is what I was going off when I said my local Telemundo channel always showed 1080i, I didn't look at it with a program like VLC or really look at it that close to look for interlacing. I see 1080 24p on my Sony's display when playing certain BDs but have never seen it with OTA content.
Yes, it's going to say 1080i (at 29.97 fps). I'll check the Bay Area stations tonight during primetime to see who's using inverse telecine. It's also possible to do inverse telecine on 720p, but I've never seen that on OTA.



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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post
Yes, it's going to say 1080i (at 29.97 fps). I'll check the Bay Area stations tonight during primetime to see who's using inverse telecine. It's also possible to do inverse telecine on 720p, but I've never seen that on OTA.



Ron
So to be clear;

Broadcasting in "inverse telecine" means to actually transmit material at the cinema frame rate of 24 fps along with TFF and RFF flags for the customers' receiver MPEG decoders to actually reconstruct the 3:2 pulldown sequence again for display if necessary?

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post #10078 of 10078 Unread Today, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post
So to be clear;

Broadcasting in "inverse telecine" means to actually transmit material at the cinema frame rate of 24 fps along with TFF and RFF flags for the customers' receiver MPEG decoders to actually reconstruct the 3:2 pulldown sequence again for display if necessary?

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Correct.

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