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post #1081 of 1188 Old 10-25-2011, 04:30 PM
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Madison and local OTA stations are almost 90 degrees apart (on the azimuth). I have lost track of what you have tried, but did you try pointing your UHF antenna to the transmitters on the west of town and not using any other signal processing? This should get you good local reception but you will lose all Madison reception.

The short wavelengths of UHF frequencies make antenna positioning very critical and UHF antennas are designed to have a null in reception at 90 degrees. I don't think you will be able to get Madison and local stations without a rotor to point the antenna at the station/s you wish to receive. You can see I use two UHF antennas, one for local and the other for Madison. No way one of them can do the job alone.

I tried to orient one UHF antenna to split the difference between Madison and local and got nothing. From my location these stations are 90 degrees apart on the azimuth and antennas must be pointed accordingly.
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post #1082 of 1188 Old 10-26-2011, 05:59 AM
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I wonder how much loss you're getting with the signal going backwards through the combiner and back out the other cable and antenna? I know when I plugged my two antennas directly together I lost 27 almost always.

Does the blockyness improve on 21 when you're having trouble if you just plug that cable in without the Rockford antenna and combiner?

If so, you might want to consider amping just the Madison cable just before the combiner to increase the signal and allow for cable loss.
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post #1083 of 1188 Old 10-26-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdoac View Post

@SycamoreSeej

What sort of problems do you have? It's the strongest transmitter and not very far from WIFR, WTVO, so if you get those, you should get WQRF. Although it maybe that you're overloading your tuners if you're using an Amp like I was.. Have you tried it without an amp if you use one?

I get signal loss, blocky pixels, and the sound sometimes drops in pitch when the signal isn't that strong. I don't know why I can get WTVO better than WQRF since they're basically the same station but on different freqencies. It's been like this since I moved here. I always get a great signal from WIFR, damn near 100%. The only antenna fix was a couple dipoles that were dislocated by wind when we got our converter box last year. I dont use an amp, but I should have Dad check the cables between the Chicago and Rockford antennas before it gets too cold. I do want to uprgrade to quad shielded rg6, disconnect the RFD antenna & get a rotor on the CHI antenna eventually. Can't afford it til i get my own income. I'm not really bothered by the signal problems. If I need to watch Fox, I switch to WFLD, maybe Madison's Fox47 if it's coming in well.

Now in NE Tucson, AZ with a cheap rabbit ears antenna. Got everything except KTTU (MyNetwork).
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post #1084 of 1188 Old 10-26-2011, 12:34 PM
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Just did a quick TVFool generic look up on Sycamore. Looks like they think WQRF is 2Edge while WTVO is LOS? Not sure why as the antennas are pretty close together. Fox is between ABC and CBS slightly further East. It's also more powerful..

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...60b55eab098c6b
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post #1085 of 1188 Old 10-26-2011, 12:35 PM
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Though WTVO and WQRF share a tower, WQRF is much lower on the tower than WTVO is.

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post #1086 of 1188 Old 10-26-2011, 04:13 PM
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I wonder how much loss you're getting with the signal going backwards through the combiner and back out the other cable and antenna?

My UHF antenna that is pointed at Madison, that is at the very top of my mast, has its own separate lead in. This lead in is not combined with the lead in from the other 2 antennas until they are right behind the TV set where I have tried different combinations of signal joining -- all to no avail.

What you and others fail to realize is that the reception of Madison signals is a "sometimes" thing. TV signals go out in a straight line and Madison from Loves Park is "over the horizon" so no TV signals can be received directly. There is some electron scatter that enables some over the horizon reception, but reception at this distance is mostly dependent on temperature/humidity variations in the overlying air layers.

When warmer more moist air overrides air at lower levels the signal can be ducted between these layers and so it can be curved downward, toward the earth, to enable over the horizon reception. This is why distant reception is often better in the evening when the earth's surface has cooled, due to radiation cooling, while the overriding air layers still remain relatively warmer.

The opposite to all of this will bend or duct the signals upwards, away from the ground.

Blockiness can be a transitory thing because over the horizon reception can vary greatly in short periods of time, depending on atmosphere layers heating or cooling. But, if there is no signal present to be received no attached amplifier is going to make any difference in reception.

And, of course, all of these effects can and do exist along a continuum. A taller mast with greater receiving antenna height, a larger antenna that has greater area to receive signals, can help improve reception consistency. As can transmitter height and power, things which improve line of sight and over the horizon electron scatter. Regardless, over the horizon TV reception will continue to vary widely, often within minutes, and if no signal is present no amplifier will help. You can't amplify something that does not exist.
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post #1087 of 1188 Old 10-27-2011, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Though WTVO and WQRF share a tower, WQRF is much lower on the tower than WTVO is.

- Trip

That could be it. Like I said earlier, I'm not buggered by it.

Now in NE Tucson, AZ with a cheap rabbit ears antenna. Got everything except KTTU (MyNetwork).
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post #1088 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 10:00 AM
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OTA channels for Madison and Rockford

For those of you who enjoy watching the Madison OTA channels, here are the program listings for ZIP 53716.

http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/w...-the-air/53716

This 2nd link (below) will show you the Rockford plus most Madison OTA TV channels.

http://tvlistings.aol.com/listings/w...-the-air/61103

This should be a useful combo listing that gets almost all pertinent channels on one page.

Dick
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post #1089 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 10:43 AM
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A friend of mine lives 15 miles out in the country (on Harrison Road) NW of Rockford. From his rooftop I believe the Rockford TV antennas would be visible. They are only about 8 miles south of his house. Madison would be almost a straight shot from his home about 40 miles to the North. And because he lives in an old farm house out in the country there are no close by structures or anything else to get in the way of reception.

Is there an antenna that receives OK off its back side so that it can receive stations both to its north and south? To the north of this antenna would be Madison, to the south would be Rockford. The signal strength from Rockford would be quite high because the Rockford transmitters are only a few miles away and the hope would be that there is an antenna that receives well enough off its back side to be usable in this location. And, the hope is that this antenna could be mounted high enough to get the Madison OTA channels.

If such a bi-directional antenna were available he might be able to get both Rockford and Madison without a rotor.

Any suggestions on an antenna that can receive fairly well off its back side and well as from its front?

Thanks...........
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post #1090 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick West View Post

A friend of mine lives 15 miles out in the country (on Harrison Road) NW of Rockford. From his rooftop I believe the Rockford TV antennas would be visible. They are only about 8 miles south of his house. Madison would be almost a straight shot from his home about 40 miles to the North. And because he lives in an old farm house out in the country there are no close by structures or anything else to get in the way of reception.

Is there an antenna that receives OK off its back side so that it can receive stations both to its north and south? To the north of this antenna would be Madison, to the south would be Rockford. The signal strength from Rockford would be quite high because the Rockford transmitters are only a few miles away and the hope would be that there is an antenna that receives well enough off its back side to be usable in this location. And, the hope is that this antenna could be mounted high enough to get the Madison OTA channels.

If such a bi-directional antenna were available he might be able to get both Rockford and Madison without a rotor.

Any suggestions on an antenna that can receive fairly well off its back side and well as from its front?

Thanks...........

Go with the ChannelMaster 4228HD. While it has a -20 dB front-to-back ratio, he's still so close that he should get them all.

Gilbert
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post #1091 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sebenste View Post

Go with the ChannelMaster 4228HD. While it has a -20 dB front-to-back ratio, he's still so close that he should get them all.

What will the 4228 do for Channel 13 off its back side?
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post #1092 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 01:43 PM
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What will the 4228 do for Channel 13 off its back side?

Should be able to get it. Last week, WREX bumped up their power to 18 kw. I can get them in DeKalb, with my 4228 antenna 25 miles away...behind a hill...pointed 120 degrees off towards Chicago. In an attic.

Gilbert
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post #1093 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sebenste View Post

Go with the ChannelMaster 4228HD. While it has a -20 dB front-to-back ratio, he's still so close that he should get them all.

Are those the specs for the newer design? Just checking.
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post #1094 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebenste View Post

Should be able to get it. Last week, WREX bumped up their power to 18 kw. I can get them in DeKalb, with my 4228 antenna 25 miles away...behind a hill...pointed 120 degrees off towards Chicago. In an attic.

Good to hear. I'm 45 miles away, but I should be able to find a way to adjust or adapt my generally fixed setup to get them all the time, without too much fuss or any added expense.
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post #1095 of 1188 Old 10-29-2011, 09:22 PM
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Are those the specs for the newer design? Just checking.

Yep. the 4228HD.

Gilbert
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post #1096 of 1188 Old 10-30-2011, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sebenste View Post

Yep. the 4228HD.

I think the concern is that Channel Master no longer makes this antenna. Its design was sold to a Chinese firm where it is now manufactured. This happened (5?) years ago. The problem for some is that the design has been altered and the original specs are no longer valid.

Here is stuff for the older (original) version of the 4228.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

Here is stuff for the newer version of the 4228.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Somewhere on AvsForum is a review of the latest version from China. Or, maybe the published review was on a Canadian web site (can't remember). The Canadian topography is quite flat north of Buffalo so there is a lot of interest in distant OTA reception for Canadians living in that area as they also can get stations from down in Northern NY state.

I read all this stuff 2 years ago so opted to get the DB-4 antennas for my rooftop set up, including a separate Yagi for Ch 13. There is a lot of nonsense published about antennas and it is difficult to get an accurate and timely review of UHF OTA antennas. This is also why I posed the question a few messages back about getting local Rockford OTA off the back side of a UHF pointed toward Madison. I am confused and skeptical about the supposed performance of the newer 4228.

Does anyone have accurate and timely info about an antenna that can get a the local Rockford OTA channels off its back side while pointed toward Madison? It is good to know about the increased power of Ch 13 that was put operational last week. Thanks Sebenste.

Dick

P.S. I have my eye on an original 4228 version on a rooftop a few blocks from here. My hope is that the owner of the house is not using it and will sell it to me in return for my help to remove it from his roof.
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post #1097 of 1188 Old 10-30-2011, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick West View Post

I think the concern is that Channel Master no longer makes this antenna. Its design was sold to a Chinese firm where it is now manufactured. This happened (5?) years ago. The problem for some is that the design has been altered and the original specs are no longer valid.

Here is stuff for the older (original) version of the 4228.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

Here is stuff for the newer version of the 4228.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Somewhere on AvsForum is a review of the latest version from China. Or, maybe the published review was on a Canadian web site (can't remember). The Canadian topography is quite flat north of Buffalo so there is a lot of interest in distant OTA reception for Canadians living in that area as they also can get stations from down in Northern NY state.

I read all this stuff 2 years ago so opted to get the DB-4 antennas for my rooftop set up, including a separate Yagi for Ch 13. There is a lot of nonsense published about antennas and it is difficult to get an accurate and timely review of UHF OTA antennas. This is also why I posed the question a few messages back about getting local Rockford OTA off the back side of a UHF pointed toward Madison. I am confused and skeptical about the supposed performance of the newer 4228.

Does anyone have accurate and timely info about an antenna that can get a the local Rockford OTA channels off its back side while pointed toward Madison? It is good to know about the increased power of Ch 13 that was put operational last week. Thanks Sebenste.

Dick

P.S. I have my eye on an original 4228 version on a rooftop a few blocks from here. My hope is that the owner of the house is not using it and will sell it to me in return for my help to remove it from his roof.

Actually, I have both the old classic 4228, and at two places, the new design 4228HD. Both perform admirably. I'd say the dB loss is 1-2 dB for UHF with the 4228 HD, but a gain of a few dB uniform across the VHF-HI dial. I really like it. I haven't tried the Antennas Direct 91XG, and I suspect that it can do 1 or 2 dB better on some UHF channels. But for uniform reception, the 4228 HD is still an excellent antenna, and still king. BTW, from a heigh of 35' in a river valley in DeKalb, a buddy of mine who has the 4228HD can get a breaking-up picture of WSBT-DT South Bend, IN, at least once or twice a minute, on non-tropo days. That's 140 miles. A friend of mine from 5 miles northwest of Champaign can lock WTWO-DT from Terre Haute, IN during the day with some breakup (100 miles).It's up 40' high, and he is down low in a creek valley, and he's pointing it through a forest to boot.

And BTW: that's how I got one of my 4228's.

Gilbert
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post #1098 of 1188 Old 11-06-2011, 08:06 AM
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Actually, I have both the old classic 4228, and at two places, the new design 4228HD. Both perform admirably. I'd say the dB loss is 1-2 dB for UHF with the 4228 HD, but a gain of a few dB uniform across the VHF-HI dial. I really like it. I haven't tried the Antennas Direct 91XG, and I suspect that it can do 1 or 2 dB better on some UHF channels. But for uniform reception, the 4228 HD is still an excellent antenna, and still king. BTW, from a heigh of 35' in a river valley in DeKalb, a buddy of mine who has the 4228HD can get a breaking-up picture of WSBT-DT South Bend, IN, at least once or twice a minute, on non-tropo days. That's 140 miles. A friend of mine from 5 miles northwest of Champaign can lock WTWO-DT from Terre Haute, IN during the day with some breakup (100 miles).It's up 40' high, and he is down low in a creek valley, and he's pointing it through a forest to boot.

And BTW: that's how I got one of my 4228's.

I find discussion about OTA reception and antennas very enlightening. How would you guys like it if this part of the spectrum were sold off to commercial interests who began charging you a fee for its use? Free OTA TV has long been considered a right for all American citizens. This free right is coming under attack:

http://savelocaltv.com/

There are too many big commercial interests who want to charge us for the use of what has for generations been a free right for us. No, I am not a political kook but a person who has seen too many free rights taken away by big money interests. This free right especially will come under attack as more and more people cut the cord to their cable companies and begin to rely on free OTA for their TV program content.

Dick
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post #1099 of 1188 Old 11-06-2011, 12:50 PM
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Free OTA TV has long been considered a right for all American citizens. This free right is coming under attack:

http://savelocaltv.com/

There's actually a whole, big Sticky Thread discussion on that over in the "HDTV Technical" forum, if you're interested in reading it.
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post #1100 of 1188 Old 01-09-2012, 01:12 PM
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Really surprised that none of the RFD channels didn't simulcast the NIU game last night. Would've been nice to watch on 17.2. Shame since they WON!!!

Now in NE Tucson, AZ with a cheap rabbit ears antenna. Got everything except KTTU (MyNetwork).
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post #1101 of 1188 Old 01-09-2012, 02:29 PM
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Really surprised that none of the RFD channels didn't simulcast the NIU game last night. Would've been nice to watch on 17.2. Shame since they WON!!!

Yeah, I know. But that's because ESPN carried the game and had exclusive rights to it.

Gilbert
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post #1102 of 1188 Old 01-10-2012, 11:07 AM
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Yeah, I know. But that's because ESPN carried the game and had exclusive rights to it.

Which is weird cos ABC simulcasts ESPN's college football games on Saturdays. God forbid they put off the Sunday repeats of Desperate Housewives for a local football game.

Now in NE Tucson, AZ with a cheap rabbit ears antenna. Got everything except KTTU (MyNetwork).
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Hello. I live in the north side of Janesville on fairly high ground near the Briarcrest "ridge". I have a 5 element VHF/UHF ratshack antenna I've used for years. Originally, when the house was built, I just threw the antenna across the collar joints (bottom of the trusses) in the drywalled garage attic space. I usually got all Rockford and Madison channel this way and even picked up occasional Milwaukee 18 and 10 in the summer.
Well, earlier last year I decided to actually mount the antenna up a bit higher between the trusses. In order to do that, I had to position it front end south, backend north towards Madison. I still get all the stations but have a weak signal on 47 and also 57. I initially had two feeds from a 2 port 15db SVI amp to feed a living room TV and lower level TV. The amp was mounted up in the garage attic with about 8 feet of RG6 to feed it, and a 55 foot run and 70 foot run of RG6 from the amp to the two TVs. Since I moved the antenna, the amp blew during a thunder storm from a lightening strike about less than 1 block away I know this , because I had the TV on at the time and after the strike ( I heard and saw the flash immediately) the signal was lost. Sure enough, the amp blew. . . EM overload I would say? But even in the garage attic??

Anyway, what would be my best bet as an additional small antenna to point straight towards Madison for a stronger signal? And, can I just combine the two antennas in the attic with a reverse splitter to then feed my two TVs? I plan on connecting an amp after about a 20 foot feed to the basement before it goes on to the two TVs. That way the amp will be grounded to a water pipe and also out of the attic heat in the summer.

So. . . does this sound like a "plan" or should I do something else? And what would be a good small antenna especially for 47 from Madison?
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post #1104 of 1188 Old 01-20-2012, 12:38 PM
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I'd get a rotor instead. You could point the antenna anywhere you want, eliminating the need for a 2nd antenna, but that's just me. Or you could get the 2nd antenna and use each one for each tv you have, which might be better without the need for an amp (which you should connect as close to the antenna as you can to get a better amped signal). I take it you have newer tv's?

Now in NE Tucson, AZ with a cheap rabbit ears antenna. Got everything except KTTU (MyNetwork).
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post #1105 of 1188 Old 03-02-2012, 08:09 PM
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http://www.wifr.com/news/headlines/W...141251193.html

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post #1106 of 1188 Old 03-02-2012, 09:02 PM
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post #1107 of 1188 Old 03-04-2012, 01:21 PM
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WTVO/WQRF got set up temporarily at a banquet hall until the transmitter tower gets repaired. For how long is anybody's guess.

Now in NE Tucson, AZ with a cheap rabbit ears antenna. Got everything except KTTU (MyNetwork).
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post #1108 of 1188 Old 03-15-2012, 07:58 AM
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Tower was certified Ok.. We're now hapilly working underneath it again..
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post #1109 of 1188 Old 03-16-2012, 01:53 AM
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Any chance WQRF will ever get moved to a higher position on the tower? Here in northern Rock County I get no signal for 39-1 (42). All other Rockford stations come in fine with much lower power levels.
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post #1110 of 1188 Old 03-16-2012, 09:24 AM
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Can't see it happening, it's on the same mast as WTVO/ETVO..
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