Rockford, IL - HDTV - Page 38 - AVS Forum
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post #1111 of 1189 Old 06-02-2012, 10:38 AM
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If you go here you can see the three antennas I have on my rooftop in Loves Park.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...3&d=1309136914

Here is a long convoluted post about the simultaneous use of all 3 of them. This message complexity is due to the sometimes complex situations brought about by using 2-3 antennas at once -- so please bear with me.

The top one does Madison with most stations received 24/7, esp. ch 27 which now has 1000 Kw of ERP as I recall. Most of the other Madison channels have between 171 Kw and 603 Kw according to a page I read.

But, when I hook up a third antenna, either the Yagi pointed at ch 13 (Rockford) or the 4 bow-tie pointed at channels 23 and 39 (Rockford), channels such as 21, 03 (50) and 45 -- all in Madison -- disappear. However Channel 27 (Madison) with its highest power still remains.

Is this reception problem due to an interaction between various frequencies radiated by certain antenna combos or is it just a simple signal strength reduction because of the need for a 2nd antenna combining device in the mix? Channels 13 and those in Madison are joined by a combiner (UHF and VHF) with the third VHF (channels 23 and 39) joined by a splitter placed in backwards. All of this results in only one cable going to the TV set.

So, is the problem reduced signal strength because of a 2nd signal management element in the mix or an interaction between a 3rd antenna and the other two? I even changed the phasing of one of the DB4s to remove the possibility that its received signals were interfering with the other DB4.

Next week I will remove both the Yagi and DB4 antennas for Rockford and replace them with one combo antenna (Antennacraft HBU22) that does both VHF and UHF. This should provide reception on all local and Madison channels and permit their received signals to be combined down to only one lead to the TV with only a backwards splitter to join Madison channels to the local channels. The combo antenna supposedly will replace the use of one combining element and make available reception of all Madison and Rockford channels with the use of only one combining device, not two as previous. Is this true?

Opinions?
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post #1112 of 1189 Old 06-02-2012, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick West View Post

The top one does Madison with most stations received 24/7, esp. ch 27 which now has 1000 Kw of ERP as I recall. Most of the other Madison channels have between 171 Kw and 603 Kw according to a page I read.

Madison stations highest to lowest:
WKOW - 800
WISC - 603 (Channel 50 shared with WXFT-Chicago)
WMSN - 310 (Channel 49 shared with KLJB-Quad Cities)
WBUW - 200
WMTV - 155 (Channel 19 shared with WGN-Chicago)
WHA - 140

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joined by a splitter placed in backwards

Just using a splitter as a combiner can definitely cause signal loss and the spewing of interference. That's my first guess. I don't think changing over to a VHF/UHF antenna for Rockford would help, because you still have to join in the Madison antenna somehow.

If you want to avoid the signal loss, you'd need a special combiner. Something like this: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...sku=1579810028

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post #1113 of 1189 Old 06-03-2012, 08:12 PM
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Thanks for your comments about joining antennas. I agree with them and you can note that the fine print in my long post mentioned a combiner. I am using a Jerrold FCO-375 to combine the local Yagi for channel 13 (NBC) here in Rockford to the UHF bow tie antenna at the top pointed towards Madison. As inferred, I can join any two antennas OK, it is when trying to join the 3rd trouble starts.

Presently, with just the local channel 13 (NBC) and UHF for Madison combined, the local UHF channels 17, 23 and 39 are almost non-existent. This why I am going to try a combination antenna that will give me all local channels 13, 17, 23 and 39 with just one antenna. If this works then I can add the UHF 4 bow tie pointed towards Madison to round out the collection of channels, and do so with only one combiner.

The combiner you pointed out only does two antennas and I presently need to join 3 antennas.
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post #1114 of 1189 Old 06-04-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick West View Post

Thanks for your comments about joining antennas. I agree with them and you can note that the fine print in my long post mentioned a combiner. I am using a Jerrold FCO-375 to combine the local Yagi for channel 13 (NBC) here in Rockford to the UHF bow tie antenna at the top pointed towards Madison. As inferred, I can join any two antennas OK, it is when trying to join the 3rd trouble starts.

Presently, with just the local channel 13 (NBC) and UHF for Madison combined, the local UHF channels 17, 23 and 39 are almost non-existent. This why I am going to try a combination antenna that will give me all local channels 13, 17, 23 and 39 with just one antenna. If this works then I can add the UHF 4 bow tie pointed towards Madison to round out the collection of channels, and do so with only one combiner.

The combiner you pointed out only does two antennas and I presently need to join 3 antennas.

Since you already have a proper combiner joining your 2 Rockford antennas, all you would need to do is combine the single output from the Rockford antennas with the Madison antenna. After you get one antenna for Rockford, all you would need to do is use the combiner to combine the antennas.

As I said before, just using a splitter as a combiner doesn't cut it. There's too much signal loss.

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post #1115 of 1189 Old 06-04-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgmv123 View Post

Since you already have a proper combiner joining your 2 Rockford antennas, all you would need to do is combine the single output from the Rockford antennas with the Madison antenna. After you get one antenna for Rockford, all you would need to do is use the combiner to combine the antennas.

As I said before, just using a splitter as a combiner doesn't cut it. There's too much signal loss.

How do you filter out signals coming from the wrong antenna using the same spectrum you want from the other antenna? When you hook up two antennas aimed in different directions, interference and phase cancellations from reflections will result in "weak signal" message from your DTV receiver unless you somehow stop the unwanted signals from the "wrong" antenna from torturing your receiver.
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post #1116 of 1189 Old 06-04-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Molnar View Post

How do you filter out signals coming from the wrong antenna using the same spectrum you want from the other antenna? When you hook up two antennas aimed in different directions, interference and phase cancellations from reflections will result in "weak signal" message from your DTV receiver unless you somehow stop the unwanted signals from the "wrong" antenna from torturing your receiver.

I think that's part of what the combiner does. Also both antennas have some degree of directionality which would help.

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post #1117 of 1189 Old 06-09-2012, 05:02 PM
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Prof. Peon,

Your advice will be well taken. This eve I will order your recommended Winegard CC-7870 2-Way TV Antenna Joiner Coupler (CC7870) from Solid Signal.

The latest two antenna array (4-bow tie and an HBU22) is going to work OK. This AM when there was a solid tropo effect going I got all local and Madison stations loud and clear using just a splitter installed backwards. This afternoon and eve tropo was less powerful and the highest freq. Madison channels (47 and 57) became either non-existent or sporadic. When just the Madison antenna was installed by itself with no intervening joiner all Madison stations were available so I know my antenna is working OK.

It would seem that the culprit is the combiner and nothing I have here does the job, especially for the highest channels, and does so with desired consistency.

I hope the Winegard CC-7870 2-Way TV Antenna Joiner Coupler (CC7870) will do the trick.

Thanks for your help.

Dick in Loves Park
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post #1118 of 1189 Old 06-12-2012, 06:12 AM
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I just ordered one too, I have an HBU 33 pointed towards Madison, and a small bowtie west towards the Rockford stations. With a reverse combiner I lose Madison, with just the HBU33 I can't get Fox39 as the antenna is slightly lower. Hopefully with both I should be OK.
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post #1119 of 1189 Old 06-13-2012, 06:18 AM
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An update. The combiner arrived and works really well, so much more successfully that a reverse splitter.
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post #1120 of 1189 Old 06-15-2012, 09:54 PM
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I would use your two antenna in the opposite manner. Channel 13 (Rockford) is the only VHF station of the bunch and the HBU33 does a great job on it. All the stations in Madison are UHF. Madison channel 3 is really channel 50. I would point the bow tie to Madison and the HBU33 to the Rockford stations.

For me an Archer (Radio Shack?) splitter combiner works just as well as the winegard CC7870. It was money wasted to purchase this expensive Winegard product. Over a 3 day period I carefully compared several combinations here with the 3 splitters available, and tried antennas by themselves with no intervening splitters. All the splitters show some signal loss but overall the Winegard is not an improvement. Drat!

Actually, I shouldn't complain as the only stations that cause problems are Madison 47, 50 (shows as 03) and 57. These are the higher frequency UHF and 2 of them could really use more power. Everything else is OK unless tropo conditions are really bad.
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post #1121 of 1189 Old 06-19-2012, 09:55 AM
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Channel 13 comes it quite hapilly sideways on the hbu33, so am not worried about it. In face everything came in from Rockford quite well sideways except Fox39, due to the lower height. 17 came in well though even though it's on the same tower. I have the hbu going to 4 x hdhomerun inputs (each box had two tuner inputs as I bought the older/cheaper ones). For a while I only used the hbu33 for ota, and used Fox39 from clearqam (am paying for internet and basic channels only as it was cheaper than just internet). I tried 3 different splitters in reverse but they would drown out signals from madison (normally channel 27 (26) and channel 57 (32), so I stopped. The winguard works well with both.

The bowtie one i have is really quite tiny, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GIT002/ref=oh_details_o01_s01_i00 I don't think it would work for Madison.
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post #1122 of 1189 Old 07-13-2012, 04:12 PM
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Hi all. I have 3 Win 7 Media Center HTPC's, living room, bedroom and office. Back in the 2nd week of May this year all my HTPC's lost Rockford WREX (channel 13). I get a "service is unavailable - there is currently no signal detected for this channel...............": However under Media Center signal strength I get 5/6 bars for all the local stations. I have spent numerous hours the last several months trying to trouble shoot this issue. I have even gone so far as to install MediaPortal which plays WREX with no problem. I also have no problem viewing WREX in the various quick view programs provided with my tuners. (I have an HDhomerun dual and a Dvico HDTV7 Dual Express.) Because my 3 systems are fairly diverse hardware wise, I don't think that I have a hardware problem. I'm wondering whether the problem is related to the TV station adding/changing something in their broadcast signal which breaks Win Media Center, or maybe Microsoft made some sort of "update" at around that time which broke my TV reception of WREX?

I would like to fix this problem because Win Media Center suits my needs to a "T". I don't want to be forced into using MediaPortal or some other media center program because I would need to pay for a guide service, and the overall integration of features in these other programs is sketchy for me at best.

I would appreciate any comments suggestions................... :-)
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post #1123 of 1189 Old 07-13-2012, 04:15 PM
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Is your tuner set for both UHF and VHF?
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post #1124 of 1189 Old 07-16-2012, 08:29 AM
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If you can see the station using a different program, it sounds like the fault is with M$. I'm assuming you're using an Antenna? There is a way to manually add a Clear Qam channel to MCE, I don't know if you can do the same with ATSC - OTA. I don't use MCE so can't confirm whether it's working. I'm assuming you tried a rescan? If you have an android phone, download the hdhomerun tuning utility and check the signal strength for channel 13.

I use MythTV for hdhomeruns and haven't had any problems or needed to rescan using my OTA system, however, Comcast moved Clear-Qam all over the place from time to time, I assume Charter would too (which I think served S, Beloit).
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post #1125 of 1189 Old 07-16-2012, 12:09 PM
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"Is your tuner set for both UHF and VHF?"

I have 2 different (dual) tuners, and both of them tune Ch 13 with excellent signal strength.

"however, Comcast moved Clear-Qam all over the place from time to time, I assume Charter would too (which I think served S, Beloit)."

I don't have cable. I use an OTA antenna (roof mounted Winegard HD-1080).

I'm also suspecting that the problem is the MS software. All my systems have also run for several years with no issues, and just suddenly lost the ability to play ch. 13 about the 2nd week of May. Probably right after a MS update.
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post #1126 of 1189 Old 07-17-2012, 05:46 AM
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Am not sure if this may help, it depends on the version of MCE you use.

http://experts.windows.com/frms/windows_entertainment_and_connected_home/f/49/t/72430.aspx

To be fair though, you're probably better off watching 15.1 from Madison as the sound is stereo only on 13.1, 5.1 from Madison.
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post #1127 of 1189 Old 07-17-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdoac View Post

To be fair though, you're probably better off watching 15.1 from Madison as the sound is stereo only on 13.1, 5.1 from Madison.

They're still only stereo? eek.gif

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post #1128 of 1189 Old 07-18-2012, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cgmv123 View Post

They're still only stereo? eek.gif

NBC network comes over as 5.1 to me on 15.1.. Or at least the amp thinks it does.
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post #1129 of 1189 Old 07-18-2012, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdoac View Post

NBC network comes over as 5.1 to me on 15.1.. Or at least the amp thinks it does.

I'm talking about WREX (13.1). WMTV (15.1) is definitely spitting out 5.1. Apparently, NBC is no longer sending down a stereo downmix, so WREX has to downmix it themselves.

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post #1130 of 1189 Old 07-19-2012, 09:21 AM
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They probably have to do that for the SD feed that they send to Comcast anyway..
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post #1131 of 1189 Old 07-19-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdoac View Post

They probably have to do that for the SD feed that they send to Comcast anyway..

Comcast probably has a converter box that does downconverts the HD feed for them.

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post #1132 of 1189 Old 07-20-2012, 06:26 AM
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No, it's done in station here (at least at WTVO/WQRF), both SD and HD are sent over fiber to them.
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post #1133 of 1189 Old 07-26-2012, 06:35 PM
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Regarding the problem with WREX and Windows Media Center. I'm suffering with this too, and after doing some investigating with TSReader Lite, I know exactly what the problem is. The PSIP data in WREX's OTA signal has an error; however, it appears that Media Center is one of the few (maybe only) systems that's affected by it. The transport stream ID (TSID) in the PAT section of the PSIP doesn't match the TSID values in the VCT sections. The TSID value is 0 (hex 0x0000) in the PAT section and 1065 (hex 0x0429) in the VCT section. According to this article, this specific PSIP error causes Media Center to not tune the channel:

http://experts.windows.com/w/experts_wiki/troubleshooting-atsc-transport-stream-issues-in-media-center.aspx

I sent a couple of emails with this info to Dan Whealy, the Chief Engineer listed on WREX's website, two weeks ago, but had to go out of town and didn't have time to pursue this further until this afternoon. Early this afternoon I called the main WREX number, asked to be connected to someone in engineering, and got Dan's voicemail, so I left a message there. So far I haven't had a response to either my emails or voice message which is disappointing to say the least. I realize this may be low priority for them, but it would be nice to at least get a "we'll look into it" response. Maybe if you pester the station as well someone will get on this.

Sean
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post #1134 of 1189 Old 07-26-2012, 07:42 PM
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That sort of thing is most obvious in Media Center given its refusal to tune things like that, but there are certainly other tuners that I've seen choke on that same issue. It's something they should really try to get straightened sooner rather than later. Here's hoping they listen.

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post #1135 of 1189 Old 07-30-2012, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgmv123 View Post

I'm talking about WREX (13.1). WMTV (15.1) is definitely spitting out 5.1. Apparently, NBC is no longer sending down a stereo downmix, so WREX has to downmix it themselves.

Ok, sometime recently (ie, from after Christmas when I last watched 13.1) NBC network feed is now coming in in 5.1 Woohoo.
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post #1136 of 1189 Old 07-31-2012, 05:14 PM
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Just an update on Media Center not tuning in WREX. I finally spoke with the Chief Engineer at WREX today. Oddly it looks like he tried emailing me back at the time I sent my email; he forwarded me a copy, but I never got the original. (I never saw it in my inbox, and it's not in my junk mail folder either.) Anwyay, they did make upgrades involving their PSIP system earlier this summer, and they're trying to figure out where in the chain the problem is occuring. Hopefully they can get it resolved soon.

Sean
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post #1137 of 1189 Old 08-10-2012, 07:48 PM
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Well, the problem is resolved. WREX is working again with Media Center. Actually I'm impressed; they set up their own WMC system to confirm the problem and debug it. When they had it working on their end, the Chief Engineer sent me an email to make sure I could tune it in also.

Sean
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post #1138 of 1189 Old 10-22-2012, 09:56 AM
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New channel in Rockford?

I see a still picture of a woman displayed at 35.1 (no sound) with no identifying info.

Is this a harbinger on a new Rockford channel?
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post #1139 of 1189 Old 10-22-2012, 10:16 AM
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I think my scan a while ago picked up a 35.2 and it was Spanish language programming, not sure what the programming source was. At least I think that is what it was, I'm not at home to check. smile.gif i did, though, find over on RabbitEars.com a listing for 35-1 as WFBN-LD, slated to carry Me-TV.
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post #1140 of 1189 Old 10-22-2012, 11:26 AM
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I said this earlier on another post but I'll also post this here.

I live in the Chi, but several months ago, I read that Me-TV would come to WFBN-LD (formerly W33AR), as per this notice on the Me-TV site, but they haven't stated an exact date on when that will come to effect. Then I'd seen this on another site that Telemundo Wisconsin would occupy WFBN from this pic. So I don't know if either Me-TV or Telemundo or both would occupy WFBN. I'm hoping Me-TV would use the WWME Chicago feed, should the network come to WFBN. Telemundo Wisconsin is already in South Bend via WMYS 69.2. I was highly curious as to what Weigel was going to do with WFBN in Rockford. Is that Analog 33 is still operating there and if it is, what the programming on analog 33?
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