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post #361 of 1416 Old 03-01-2005, 04:32 PM
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KDLT map for comparision purposes....
LL
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post #362 of 1416 Old 03-01-2005, 11:26 PM
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Yeah, I'm not too sure how accurate those maps are. I have looked at them before. When I put my "rabbits" on the roof, KDLT only came in at 20% whereas I can move the antenna indoors and get it at 10% in some spots in the basement. Too bad I dont know of anyone else in Larchwood to compare too. ~ColAvsFan

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post #363 of 1416 Old 03-15-2005, 12:04 PM
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If I remeber correctly, KELO did a multicast last year on Thusday and Friday of the NCAA Men's BB tourney. We usually got to see a HD game and our local game. Anybody have a contact at KELO who can tell us what they are planning this year?
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post #364 of 1416 Old 03-15-2005, 10:24 PM
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Only thing I know is that they are to be installing new PSIP equipment to get guide info and time correctly on thier channels later this week. ~ColAvsFan

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post #365 of 1416 Old 03-16-2005, 09:08 AM
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It would be really nice if KELO would start broadcasting in 5.1 SS. This is my first year of March Madness in HD, so I guess I will take it one step at a time.

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post #366 of 1416 Old 03-16-2005, 01:15 PM
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The KELO engineer emailed me that they have no plans to upgrade their sound to DD5.1

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
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post #367 of 1416 Old 03-16-2005, 03:17 PM
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This is from the KELO web site. So it appears they will be mulitcasting.

Thursday, March 17:
Oklahoma vs Nigra - 11:45am CT tip off (analog & HDTV)
Cincinnati vs Iowa - 1:40pm CT tip off (analog only)
Utah vs University of Texas - 2:05pm CT tip off (HDTV only)
Texas vs Nevada - 6:10pm CT tip off (analog only)
Gonzaga vs Withrop - 6:25pm CT tip off (HDTV only)
Texas Tech vs UCLA - 8:45pm CT tip off (analog & HDTV)

Friday, March 18:
Minnesota vs Iowa State - 11:30am CT tip off (analog only)
Charlotte vs NC State - 11:15am CT tip off (HDTV only)
UNC vs Oakland - 1:50pm CT tip off (analog only)
Connecticut vs Central Florida - 1:35pm CT tip off (HDTV only)
Wisconsin vs Northern Iowa - 6:20pm CT tip off (analog only)
Syracuse vs Vermont - 6:10pm CT tip off (HDTV only)
Kansas vs Bucknell - 8:40pm CT tip off (analog only)
Michigan St. vs Old Dominion Uni. - 8:30pm CT tip (HDTV only)
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post #368 of 1416 Old 03-16-2005, 03:42 PM
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My Bad,

KELO is not actually multicasting. I pulled up their schedule and they are still showing UPN shows on 11.2. So they are just showing us some different games on 11.1 than on analog 11. --- Which is what they stated on their site and I misunderstood.
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post #369 of 1416 Old 03-17-2005, 12:07 AM
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Dang, I was hoping to see one of the Iowa games in HD. They are broadcasting guide info now, and their time is correct.~ColAvsFan

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post #370 of 1416 Old 03-17-2005, 06:56 PM
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COLAVSFANINNWIA

All they gotta do is win both games this weekend and they'll be in HD next weekend. ...(Sorry about IOWA today... only game I had wrong in my brackets for the afternoon)
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post #371 of 1416 Old 03-17-2005, 10:59 PM
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BVfan, I was meaning any of the Iowa schools (Iowa, IA state, UNI) for an HD viewing since I got today and Fri off of work. But myself, I am a Gopher fan so I would not be rooting for IA state, and I dont really care that Iowa lost . The games I did watch in HD looked absolutely brilliant, alot better, in my mind, than the football HD games. ~ColAvsFan

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post #372 of 1416 Old 03-18-2005, 06:23 AM
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Why is it when CBS shows a close up in HD that is moving quickly, the background seems to pixelate or get fuzzy? Is it because it is 1080i rather than 720P? I don't notice it on FOX HD.
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post #373 of 1416 Old 03-18-2005, 07:04 AM
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Quote:


Why is it when CBS shows a close up in HD that is moving quickly, the background seems to pixelate or get fuzzy? Is it because it is 1080i rather than 720P? I don't notice it on FOX HD.

It's because of that ridiculous UPN subchannel they air which is stealing precious HD bandwidth. At least that's my uneducated opinion. KELO-HD hasn't been the same since they started carrying it. Watching the games last night it was bad, bad, bad.
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post #374 of 1416 Old 03-18-2005, 07:06 AM
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Last night's HD game on KELO: was it me or was the picture quite dark?

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
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post #375 of 1416 Old 03-18-2005, 11:21 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by rmullin
Last night's HD game on KELO: was it me or was the picture quite dark?

I too thought that a couple of the games yesterday were darker than others, but I can not remember the specific venue. Seems to me it was the arena that had a lot of blue on th floorl

Just compared NC State/Charolotte game on D* HD and KELOHD. The KELO broadcast does not appear to be darker than the D*. What is noticeable is difference in the sound. D* is in DD 5.1 and the crowd noise makes you feel like you are there.
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post #376 of 1416 Old 03-18-2005, 11:33 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by bighdtvfan
Why is it when CBS shows a close up in HD that is moving quickly, the background seems to pixelate or get fuzzy? Is it because it is 1080i rather than 720P? I don't notice it on FOX HD.

I agree with Husker about KELO looking softer at times than it use to. I think is is more noticeable in some indoor live events and some of the network programs.

I also saw pixelation last night, but I did not watch KELO very much so that may have been a function of what was going on with the network. I also think that sometimes signal strength may affect the quality of a moving obect as I have experienced the same effect on FOX.

I do think the ABC, ESPN, and FOX HD live events look more "3D" if you will, so maybe that is the 720p over the 1080i.

Since most of the HD crews are independents that the network hires, that could also be a variable for quality in the live venues.
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post #377 of 1416 Old 03-18-2005, 01:04 PM
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I'm of the opinion that it has more to do with 720p vs 1080i broadcasts than the KELO/UPN subchannel. 1080 interlace gives us 180 less lines at a single instant in time than 720p. If you take a look at past threads, about the only time anyone complains about KELO's brodcasts is during sports events. Meanwhile, slow moving CSI looks fantastic. We're comparing apples vs. oranges here...
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post #378 of 1416 Old 03-19-2005, 09:19 PM
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I'm sure somewhere in this AVS forum there is a topic about pixelation. I'm sure it doesn't happen just in Sioux Falls, however, I will look later. I do know that I have seen it on PBS HD as well. (1080i worse than 720p?)

To rmullin's comment about the picture looking dark, I myself had to turn DOWN the brightness on my screen. My eyes were hurting at the brightness. But for me its easy to hit the picture type button from standard to movie. That solved it for me. ~ColAvsFan

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post #379 of 1416 Old 03-21-2005, 07:08 AM
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Re: 1080i Pixelization

I agree that there are definite flaws in the broadcast stream from KELO-HD, but you can't say it is the difference between 720p and 1080i. In addition to the broadcast signals, I can get HBO-HD from my cable system in 1080i, and there is never that kind of pixelation - even on very fast, bright action scenes.

We are still on the 'bleeding edge' of the HD revolution, and everything is not up to the quality we all desire, and that our HD TVs can produce. As the networks focus more on HD and digital broadcasts, I expect things to improve substantially on the local level.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
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post #380 of 1416 Old 03-21-2005, 07:50 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by BryanSD
I'm of the opinion that it has more to do with 720p vs 1080i broadcasts than the KELO/UPN subchannel. 1080 interlace gives us 180 less lines at a single instant in time than 720p. If you take a look at past threads, about the only time anyone complains about KELO's brodcasts is during sports events. Meanwhile, slow moving CSI looks fantastic. We're comparing apples vs. oranges here...

The pixelization/macroblocking you see with 1080i isn't an interlace artifact, which would look like NTSC jitter, but rather it's a bandwidth problem - when lots of pixels change on the screen simultaneously (fast motion scenes), there simply isn't enough bandwidth to get all the information down the pipeline. So you get pixelization around the fast-motion areas, or across the entire picture during a fast pan, for example.

720p displays slightly fewer pixels per second, but its real benefit is that it compresses more efficiently under MPEG2, requiring less bandwidth to broadcast, and therefore its picture quality doesn't suffer nearly as much as 1080i. Given sufficient bandwidth, say 19mbits/sec, 1080i sports can look great (HDNet is 1080i, for example), but that doesn't leave any bandwidth for stations that want to add subchannels. So there's a tradeoff for 1080i vs 720p - 1080i offers more resolution, but 720p is smoother for action scenes. I personally prefer 1080i for movie and documentary programs, but I like 720p for sports.

For multicasting TV stations, 720p is a win. The 720p HD signal doesn't suffer much degradation at reduced bandwidth - I think KSFY sends out their 720p at ~12mbits/sec, for instance, and it looks fine. Compare that to KELO's 1080i at ~15mbits/sec, which has lots of artifacts during sporting events despite a higher bitrate.
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post #381 of 1416 Old 03-21-2005, 11:01 AM
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For multicasting TV stations, 720p is a win. The 720p HD signal doesn't suffer much degradation at reduced bandwidth - I think KSFY sends out their 720p at ~12mbits/sec, for instance, and it looks fine. Compare that to KELO's 1080i at ~15mbits/sec, which has lots of artifacts during sporting events despite a higher bitrate.

But is whatever bitrate KELO is sending out essentially split b/w the 2 subchannels? I don't have any equipment that can check those numbers.

All I know is Monday Night football, for example, on KSFY looks pristine from start to finish...live action, replays, slow motion, etc. CBS football looks really good from the "sideline" cameras that they show the live game action from (better than ABC I would say) but suffers during replays and slowmotion with the blocking/artifacting issues. Watching the NCAA's the past 4 days I'd say basketball suffers worse than football. I think KELO added the UPN sub-channel in Feb of 2004, right after football season when they carried the Super Bowl, but i could be wrong.

Quote:


Meanwhile, slow moving CSI looks fantastic. We're comparing apples vs. oranges here...

Slow moving scenes....yes. But the blocking/pixelating/artifacting is much worse in the fast action scenes or the "strobe light" type scenes of the CSI's then it was a few years ago.

Again, all JMO but I've been watching both HD channels pretty religiously since they started up. I also have a 1080i set with all 720p converted to 1080i at my set top box.
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post #382 of 1416 Old 03-21-2005, 01:44 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Husker
But is whatever bitrate KELO is sending out essentially split b/w the 2 subchannels?

I emailed the KELO station engineer a few months back and he told me the HD channel get 15/Mb and the .1 channel gets 3Mb.
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post #383 of 1416 Old 03-21-2005, 01:50 PM
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Kind of off the subject but has anyone ever contacted KDLT and found out when they plan on putting up the NBC shows in hi-def??
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post #384 of 1416 Old 03-21-2005, 03:09 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Husker
But is whatever bitrate KELO is sending out essentially split b/w the 2 subchannels? I don't have any equipment that can check those numbers.

All stations start with ~19.4 mbits/sec to work with.

KELO is splitting their bandwidth, with about 15mbits/sec going to CBSHD, and 3.?mbits/sec going to UPN. The rest is audio and overhead.

KSFY is only broadcasting one stream, ABCHD at about 12.2mbits/sec. They're padding the rest of the channel with null packets, essentially.

I agree that for sports, 12mbit 720p looks better than 15mbit 1080i.

For last year's Superbowl on CBS (NE vs Car), KELO shut down their subchannel for the day, giving the CBSHD feed most of the 19mbits/sec. I thought it looked substantially better than their weekly games this past season, or this weekend's NCAA games.
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post #385 of 1416 Old 03-29-2005, 10:18 AM
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Living on top of a hill in Sioux City, I watch the Sioux Falls HD ABC and CBS. Sioux City's sole HD channel, KTIV NBC, broadcasts a signal so weak that large parts of Sioux City cannot receive it.

SIOUX CITY RESIDENTS: can you reliably tune-in the Omaha HD channels? Which ones? I understand that some or most Omaha channels will be broadcasting at full power by some time this April.

What is your experience with Omaha HD channels?

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post #386 of 1416 Old 04-04-2005, 07:20 AM
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Wife finally got fed up and called KSFY. Last week my wife was complaining because Desparate Housewives wasn't in HD. Then when it started this week the same way, she finally got fed up and called them. 5 minutes later it switched to HD.

Is this someone sleeping at the station? Is there a manual step that someone forgot? Anyway the wife was happy again, and so I was happy again.

Go Blue!
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post #387 of 1416 Old 04-04-2005, 07:23 AM
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KSFY

My wife thanks your wife. Thank goodness that KELO had the Final Four in HD.

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
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post #388 of 1416 Old 04-07-2005, 09:14 PM
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I noticed that KDLT is now bradcasting HD. I don't know if they passed any of their prime time programming in HD because I wasnt home this evening. Also KCSD now re-maps to 23-1, 23-2. ~ColAvsFan

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post #389 of 1416 Old 04-09-2005, 10:56 PM
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Anyone watch the PGA masters on CBS? I thought the Hi-Def commercials looked better than the game. The outdoor lighting may have had something to do with it too though.

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post #390 of 1416 Old 04-10-2005, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree the the Masters tournament is just about the best commercial there is for high definition TV. I think CBS should be commended for what must be a tremendous effort to have all those HD cameras.

Bill
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