CINCINNATI Official February 2003 Thread - AVS Forum
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Old 02-01-2003, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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It's that time again! The January Cincy thread, with loads of great info of current interest is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=207423

Links to past Cincy area threads are available from first post of last month's thread.

As a reminder, I believe there is a test on KET4 scheduled for 8pm tomorrow night(Sunday 2/2).

Jeff
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Old 02-02-2003, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by William Smith
Sunday night @8:00pm KET4
William,

Hope you've made it to the new thread!

Concerning the test on KET4 during the Widescreen SD presentation of "Nature" tonight, I experienced Flawless switches in ATSC formats on both receivers(RCA F38310/Zenith HDV420) here, to the 16x9 format at 19:59:30, and back to 4x3 SD at 20:59:30. During the switches, Did not lose even a second of audio, no noticable loss of video frames as well.

I also compared Video quality on KET4 to the "other" Cincinnati PBS station(currently running a 2nd SD subchannel alongside the HD channel) which was running the same programming, and I could tell no appreciable difference in compression artifacts or overall picture quality. Compression artifacts were quite noticable via both stations when the Croc's were feeding/etc.

Anyhow, Overall it looks good!

I did Notice that KET3 was running animated SD programming during the test on KET4, and it was extremely plagued by compression artifacts. I didn't notice a change in quality on KET1 and KET2, although I didn't spend much time checking it. After 9pm, KET3 is back to normal as well.

Thanks for keeping us up to date and for the excellent info you provide us,

Jeff
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Old 02-02-2003, 07:44 PM
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While I couldn't compare it to WCET, WCVN's 54-4 HD test looked great, but I could tell it was a SD upgrade. 54-3 looked terrible, but I read in the Louisville thread where they were going to bring it down to 800k during HD. Arthur looked like a checkerboard, and the picture and sound would disappear completely. KET1 & KET2 looked normal.

It was a little distracting with the KET4 bug in the middle of the screen. The bug wasn't present on KET2. Here's hoping William can exterminate it or scoot into the corner. ;)
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Old 02-04-2003, 10:47 AM
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Anybody know anything yet about the All-Star Game on TWC (or not)?
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Old 02-04-2003, 11:20 AM
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If PBS would stay constant on where they put their BUG it would be easier. I need to make a note about KET3 programming during prime time. SOmethings amiss..


William
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Old 02-04-2003, 12:42 PM
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Hello all,

I have lurked on this forum for some time, but just installed a MYHD card in my htpc the day before the superbowl, so I haven't visited this area before.

It's nice to know that you all have formed a 'Cincy' thread. I will spend time the next few days looking over old threads and learn what I've been missing out on.

I am in the Ross area, and have a line of sight to several of the towers (Through Mount Rumpke though), so reception is easy for me.

I am initially impressed with the improved quality of TV with DTV signals vs the cable, and the Sat. signals.

My home theater setup is in my basement and includes;

Dish regular receiver
home built HTPC with MYHD hdtv card
Zenith PRO900X PJ
Dalite pull down screen
Harmon Kardon AV receiver
assorted DIY speakers.
Two nice reclining chairs.

Ralph E
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Old 02-04-2003, 02:39 PM
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Any Insight Cable folks out there know when the locals will be broadcast over Insight HD cable in N KY? HBO and Showtime HD are nice and all, but I want the local channels in there too!
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Old 02-04-2003, 03:30 PM
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Hi all, remember me over here in Ft. Wright... just a few miles from the WKRC tower but down in a slight valley, ...My roof-mounted Wineguard with rotor (my 3rd antenna setup) seemed to solve my WKRC reception problems.... well anyway I'm getting big dropouts again from ch 31 over the past few days. My meter is hovering at 100% most of the time, then bam, quick dropouts that last for about 3-10 seconds. All other channels are still great. So I'm wondering if anyone else has this prob in the past few days, or if maybe airline traffic has changed. Just curious-- and frustrated again.
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Old 02-05-2003, 08:02 AM
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Itzme,

Yes to the drop outs on the Westside of Cincy also and we are about 15 miles line of sight to the tower. I have had drop outs or extremely weak signals from WLWT-HD and WCET-HD at times. Both are on the same tower so I think work may be in progress when that happens. When WLWT-HD is on it strength is always 100% and WCET-HD being at a lower power right now is about 79%. Then nothing for a few seconds. Sorry but I Do not have my chart of channels in front so I can't remember the Channel 5 HD channel so 31 maybe correct. I do know 34 is for Channel 48 WCET. I'm using a Radio Shack VU-90 which has been great for over a month now and waiting for weather to break to add the rotor.
All Local HD channels have been strong with the antenna up on the roof at about 30 ft. from ground.

All OTA channels have been 100% (Samsung T-160) on HD channels for 5,9,12,19,64 except for the HD drops on 5HD and 48 HD over the past few days which drop on and off. WCPO Audio is still HORRIBLE!! I will work on getting the Dayton HD and other area HD when weather breaks.
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Old 02-05-2003, 10:54 AM
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I have HD with TWC and have been having problems with WKRC.
Screen with go blank for a second or two and at times the picture breaks up. Have seen this for a couple of weeks now. All other HD channels seem to be fine (but I do watch WKRC more than the others).
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Old 02-05-2003, 02:15 PM
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John,

Thanks for that info because it leads me to think that the dropouts are NOT a function of my antenna problems of the past, but perhaps some problems at the WKRC 31 end. Maybe you could mention the problem to TWC, and let them track it to WKRC.

Let's face it, there's more primetime HD on WKRC than anywhere else.
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Old 02-05-2003, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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If it helps, I'm seeing no problems with WKRC-DT here from 33 Miles North of their tower, no problems with the 6 other Cincy/N KY(27~39 Miles), or 4 Dayton(13~14 miles) stations either.

Jeff
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Old 02-05-2003, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nitewatchman
If it helps, I'm seeing no problems with WKRC-DT here from 33 Miles North of their tower, no problems with the 6 other Cincy/N KY(27~39 Miles), or 4 Dayton(13~14 miles) stations either.
Ditto that here in Florence (now that I have a receiver up where I can check it all day!)

Doc

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Old 02-05-2003, 05:23 PM
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2/5 @ 7:15pm

0% Channel 5 HD (have the samsung hooked up so channel does not show HD channel). All others 100%. Channel 48 (34HD) 79%.

HMMMMMMMM??:confused:
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:13 PM
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Oh well, now I'm back to wondering whats wrong with my set-up and the WKRC dropouts.. I'll go play with the rotor some more
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:16 PM
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Consult..
I'm getting WLWT-DT just fine, but they're not running "Ed" in HD. Not my show, or I'd call. Plus, they're automated, so the computer should catch it on one of the breaks.

Doc

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Old 02-05-2003, 06:17 PM
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Fairfield_John

I had the same problem with station 912 on TWC (in the JAN thread). They never were able to find the problem because when they came out it always seemed to work. Someone on this forum thought it happened once 948 was added. Anyway, go to station 100 and select converter status. A couple of enters should get you there. When 912 was popping in and out, my forward level dBmV was a negative number. TWC wouldn't give me an amplifier since it was only one channel and didn't happen all the time. I went to Radio Shack and got a bi-amp (you need one that allows the signal to go both ways) and now it seems to be fine. The analog channels seemed to be better also.

Good luck.
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Old 02-05-2003, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Consult,

That seems odd. Just a wild guess, but I wonder if your receiver got "lost" PSIP(channel remapping) wise, and needs to be tuned(or you need to re-auto rescan channels)first to the actual channel for WLWT-DT, 35. It should remap to 5-1.

I wasn't looking at 7:15, but at 7:30-8:15, WLWT-DT 35(remaps to 5) is as normal here(90-94%), WCET-DT is "normal" at 76%(RCA DTC-100). Everything else is as normal too, Including WXIX-DT which came on the air as usual, an hour or so ago. Not that those numbers from the receiver's meter mean much --- Our meters aren't "really" signal strength meters, and you can't really compare the numbers between receivers. Above 28 produces a lock, and "generally speaking" fairly steady readings of 40 or above generally produces perfect reception on a DTC-100.

Anyhow, WLWT/WCET broadcasts from the same tower with antennas nearly at the same height(both are nice and high on their tower), I believe this is what they're currently doing:

WLWT-DT 35 - 512 KW ERP - Non-Directional Antenna
WCET-DT 34 - 7 KW ERP - Directional antenna, doesn't favor the South, should be fine in your direction though.

Since they are co-located on the same tower, this should alleviate adjacent channel interference(ACI) issues, but I suppose it is possible. However, If there was a problem with ACI between these 2 stations, one would think it would be more likely that WCET-DT would suffer. I would suspect that WCET-DT 34 and WSTR-DT 33 which are on different towers, would be more of a potential ACI issue, although It doesn't seem to be a problem for them currently, with both stations at "relatively" low power.

If you're using a preamp, intermod/overload would be a more likely potential problem, although I'd still expect you'd see something other than a solid goose egg for WLWT-DT on your receiver's meter, as I would think would be the case if there was some other interference, or even a multipath issue involved -- The latter of which seems somewhat unlikely since you aren't having a problem with WCET-DT off the same tower.

Also, As for WKRC-DT 31, it's on WKRC 12 tower, 800KW ERP with a non- directional radiation pattern. From what I can tell(by means other than looking at the meter on the receiver), it's the strongest DTV signal in our area.

Just some wild guesses and speculation, Hope this helps somehow, Good luck,

Doc,

Aargh. No ED in HD on WKEF-DT Dayton either, they haven't had HD for quite a while, I've asked them about it, but haven't received a response. Wonder if it's a NBC mistake, since I haven't seen WLWT-DT miss a beat for a loonnng time.

On a more positive note, <jinx alert!> I didn't get a chance to look last night, but I've noticed WXIX-DT has been doing a Kick *ss job of 480p since Saturday, they even came up for Fox News Sunday in Widescreen .. And stayed up all day. If they keep it up, I'll soon send them yet another, nice thank you note ....

Jeff
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Old 02-05-2003, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Crud, at 9:10pm, looks like I jinxed it for WXIX-DT. LOL. Should have known since the 4x3 was perfectly centered during 70's show that they weren't using the "right" feed for 480p.

Just got this from WCPO-DT, good to see they are keeping up the programming newletters:

SATURDAY FEBRUARY 8 - 8:00PM TO 11:00PM
"THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION"

SUNDAY FEBRUARY 9 - 7:00PM TO 9:00PM
"INSPECTOR GADGET"

SATURDAY FEBRUARY 15 - 8:30PM TO 11:00PM
"NOTTING HILL"

SUNDAY FEBRUARY 16 - 7:00PM TO 10:00PM
MEREDITH WILSON'S "THE MUSIC MAN"

SATURDAY FEBRUARY 22 - 8:00PM TO 10:00PM
"FORCES OF NATURE"

THE FOLLOWING PRIMETIME SHOWS ARE ALSO BROADCAST IN HIGH DEFINITION:

ALIAS, DRAGNET, VERITAS: THE QUEST, THE PRACTICE, MIRACLES, 8 SIMPLE
RULES..., ACCORDING TO JIM, LIFE WITH BONNIE, LESS THAN PERFECT, NYPD BLUE,
MY WIFE AND KIDS, GEORGE LOPEZ.


REGARDS,
GREGORY RUSCHMAN, JR.
WCPO.COM WEB CONTENT EDITOR

Jeff
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Old 02-05-2003, 08:34 PM
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This is really getting odd!!

Ok 10pm nothing on 48 or 5 HD. Now what shall I think? Went and remapped the channels and 5HD comes up on the listing and says searching for signal. Channel 48 HD does not show up. OK who jixed a good thing going?

Any suggestions besides rebooting?

UPDATE: 7:45am

Pulled the plug and reset Samsung T160. Nothing changed not signal on 5HD and now 48HD does not show up in listing. I guess I will try the Zeineth tonight to see is it works. If it does we know its the receiver. Update asap. Approx 530pm
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Old 02-06-2003, 07:36 AM
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Consult,

All normal here in Amelia at 9:30am for 5-1, 9-1, 12-1, and 48-1. I'm getting 100% on the e86 for all but 48-1 which is 96%. I'm even getting 100% on 54-1 which is a little unusual, and I almost locked 41-1 out of Dayton. No 64-1 but that is usual for me, only time I've gotten picture from them was when they were testing at higher power the other week.

Haven't tried the T150 this morning, but I'll report if it is any different.

Dave
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Old 02-06-2003, 08:50 AM
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My personal take on this reception problem..

At the power levels that WLWT and WCET are running it will be very difficult to for a receiver to handle both signals appropriately.. The selectivity will have to be very good as their is a 18.6 dB difference in power in the best case.

8-VSB works if the signal to noise ratio is 15 db or better.
The adjacent channel signal will look like noise to the receiver thus affecting the ratio and AGC of the tuners.

In this case the lower power signal is at a real disadvantage..


Just a personal technical evaluation not endorsed by my employer.

William
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Old 02-06-2003, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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William,

Excellent explanation.

That is what I was trying to get at in one of my previous posts, although what threw me a bit was that at first, Consult was seeing WCET-DT fine, but not WLWT-DT. I would have expected he would have seen something other than "0" from WLWT-DT, unless they were off the air.

I do wonder to how much of a degree this "potential issue" could be affected by receiving location, and receiver design(selectivity). I would have thought since the WCET/WLWT DTV transmitting antennas were on the same tower, at least problems related to the receiving location would be minimized.

All,

At 12:15-1:25pm,

WCET-DT appears to be off the air, WLWT-DT appears to be varying its signal to some degree, at first, they appeared to be running at quite a bit lower power than normal, presently, It appears they've "turned up the juice" a bit.

Along with WSTR-DT, I've seen these stations apparantly testing adjacent channel interference issues on occasion before .. I.e. One of the 3 stations will go off the air for a time, and "take turns" going off and coming back up. Without going into detail, I can use other methods besides using the DTV receiver to detect the signals.

Here, so far, the only time I've seen the problem William mentioned above was a little over a week ago when WSTR-DT 33 apparantly was testing at higher power levels, which did affect my WCET-DT reception. Doc and I were talking about it at the time, and I believe he saw the problem as well. At one point, WSTR-DT went down for a bit, then came back up again at high power, and when they did so, it appeared as if they must have added some sort of filter, as the adjacent channel interference(noise) to WCET-DT was diminished.

Other than during WSTR-DT's apparent High power testing however, from my location, I haven't seen a problem, or a change in readings from the receiver/etc. from any of these 3 stations due to the other being on the air. The same is true for WDTN-DT 50, and WKEF-DT 51 in Dayton, which use different sticks. In fact, even with WLWT-DT putting a strong signal in here as is normal, I believe I detected WCET-DT's signal perhaps off their exciter, a week or so before they came on the air.

Just some speculation based on observation, Consult, let us know if you see any improvement in your WLWT/WCET reception,

Jeff
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Update:

At 2pm, Both WCET-DT and WLWT-DT appear to be off the air.

Jeff
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:11 PM
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If WCET were at say 50K then the U to D ratio (Undesired to Desired)would be about 10db (500Kw to 50Kw is 10dB. The AGC would be able to capture both signals equally and since they would be within 15 db of each other the receiver should be able to decode them. (theoretically. the 18+db separation is going to cause problems...

The original FCC channel and power assignments took advantage of this effect when considering co-located facilities..

This is why Sinclar and others are pushing mandatory receiver minimum technical specifications... As you know CEA is resisting as they don't believe anyone is/will use the off-air tuner to receive DTV.


William
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:12 PM
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Nitewatchman,

Maybe I'm not going nuts then. I'll check when I get home too update and scan again.:confused:

William,

So what your saying is it more than likely is not on my end since I had all channels over the weekend and now 5-1 and 48-1 are acting up. It's a little above my technical thought process when it come to the db issue even that I understood it a little.:(
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Old 02-06-2003, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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At 3:25pm, WCET-DT is on the air, WLWT-DT appears to be off the air.

My understanding is, the last I heard, WCET-DT's High power transmitter was "in the works" at Harris, and they were planning on installing it in the Spring, perhaps as soon as March.

I've been actually impressed with the performance of the DTV receivers I've been using, especially where selectivity, ablity to deal with multipath, and ability to reject "noise" is concerned. This has been the case for receiving the locals, and for Dx'ing(even weak signals on channels adjacent to strong locals, sometimes, even CO-channel DX through local analog "noise").

Still, I certianly hope FCC listens where the receiver standards issue is concerned. I've read through the petition/etc. on Sinclair website concerning what they are proposing for minimum receiver standards, and everything they are saying seems to be a very good idea to me. As long as Sinclair doesn't bring that one, old, and tired "beating the dead horse" issue into it, I'm certianly all for what they are proposing. I wouldn't think that in the "long run", what they(and we--at least some of us, I'd venture to guess) are asking for should be prohibitive cost wise for the hardware manufacturers.

Otherwise, although what they are asking for would seem to be a "given", my concern is, the DTV receivers that especially end up going in the "new" integrated TV's per the FCC tuner mandate may be fairly useless in many cases for off-air reception.

There certianly are those of us out here who do, and will use over the air reception in the future, frankly, if it isn't there, and doesn't work, I won't be watching TV at all.

I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but, TV isn't a necessity of life, not in my family's case anyhow, nor do we really have any need or much "want" of the "extra" services available via Pay TV(not from what we've seen of them anyway), we get pretty much everything "extra(mostly Movies)" we want via DVD. If OTA TV ever goes South, what I would miss most is much of the PBS stuff -- There is a lot of stuff on that list, but shows such as "Frontline" and "Nova" would probably be at the top.

In other words, other than for the hardware necessary for reception, would we pay for TV programming via Cable or Satellite it if we "had to"? No. Are we poor, no, but we aren't rich either. Would we currently have a HD display if we were/Had been paying $40 per month for programming, probably not.

One of the most disturbing things for me concerning this "DTV issue", Is, I had hoped to be supporting local broadcasters by viewing their digital stations off the air, and yet sometimes it "feels" as if the opposite is happening. Furthermore, there are so many things that could be happening to "move along" and promote DTV+HD, which aren't.

Oh well, it seems there is allways something "bad" to talk about if you are looking for something bad, I guess it's better to focus more on the good things, Such as the fine DTV+HD service we get from most of the Cincinnati+N.KY stations!

Jeff
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Old 02-06-2003, 03:18 PM
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UPDATE3

5:15pm

After rescaning ALL HD channels in cincy show up including 5-1 and 48-1 and 48-2. The only thing not showing is 19-2 but I don't think it is on right now. This was very odd and Nightwatchman and William are on to something here with possible problems if items are not addressed as pointed out by William. Let's see how the rest of the evening goes......
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Just looked at 6pm, Solid reception of WCET-DT and WLWT-DT as is normal(no dropouts/etc), WLWT-DT coming back up did not affect the s/n(or bit rate error/etc) readings I was getting off the receiver earlier(76 from the DTC100) from WCET-DT earlier, when WLWT-DT was off the air.

My guess is, unless they had some sort of problem, that they've been "fine tuning" things/testing/etc. where the adjacent channel interference issue is concerned, and Consult might have did a scan/etc. yesterday when they were doing some of that work/etc.

Consult,

I'm sure the issue is being addressed to the extent that is possible by the staff at the stations involved, I don't believe William was saying otherwise, only that he was pointing out that stations on 1st adjacent channels running at vastly different power levels can be a reception issue concerning the selectivity among stations on 1st adjacent channels that is possible with a receiver.

In any event, This bit from WCET-DT's latest issue of their Digital Enews, which was also posted in last month's thread, and, you can receive these newsletters(free) by signing up for it on the WCET-DT website :

"Right now we are operating using a solid state low-power transmitter while
our permanent unit is being manufactured by Harris Corp. We are on
schedule to install the new full power system in mid March. Between now
and that time you may experience some interruptions in service on Channel
34 as we continue to iron out the bugs. The new transmitter should solve
some of the reception problems that have been reported by some trying to
receive our new digital channel."

------

Anyhow, if you want to try to think of this in a little different way, this isn't perhaps the best example as it is an extreme, and a bit "different" depending upon the type of tuner used, but, if a AM station was broadcasting at say, 5 KW on 710 AM off WLW's tower along with WLW's 50KW Signal, It would probably be quite difficult for your AM receiver to be selective enough tune in the station on 710.

If you see this sort of thing again, hopefully there is a way you can simply manually tune your receiver to the actual channel in use, if there is some sort of proper signal there from the stations, you should be able to get "some" sort of reading.

Also, no, WXIX-DT (19-x) is not on the air presently, we'll probably see them around 7pm-8pm as is "currently" normal for them.

Jeff
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:25 PM
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I'm glad to see the info in this thread because it saved me quite a bit of pain. I just got an E86 today and have been trying to see what I can pull in, using info from antennaweb.org as a guide. I was able to get 48 DT intermittently, but never could get 5 DT at all. If I hadn't read this thread, I would still be trying to find a way to get 5 DT (35). Is there a good listing of what I should be able to see? I'm not sure what stations are running what sub channels. Antennaweb.org shows what the digital stations are, but doesn't show how many subchannels there are supposed to be.

Also, I wasn't able to get anything from WXIX. Is their DT even on?

Thanks,
Chris
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