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post #631 of 10088 Old 01-28-2004, 01:40 PM
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Hi all,

Larry, is there any chance you could run my address through your topo mapping program to tell me what chances I have for OTA HDTV? 17523 214th Ave NE, Woodinville.

I've got good DirecTV HDTV and I had an installer come to mount an HDTV antenna. Unfortunately, the one he wanted to mount was extremely ugly and wouldn't pass my WAF test. So, I had him take it down. During the test and without any positioning whatsoever, he was able to pull in quite a few high-def digital OTA channels. I'm hoping that either a Zenith Silver Sensor or the new Winegard SquareShooter will be the answer.

Thanks,
Greg
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post #632 of 10088 Old 01-28-2004, 01:51 PM
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I'm just south of I90, at the Newport Way exit, so relatively high altitude. I'll look for a Silver Sensor, as an inside antenna would be best.
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post #633 of 10088 Old 01-28-2004, 04:00 PM
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Larry,

Can you check this location?

63rd and 114th, Bellevue 98006.

Thanks.
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post #634 of 10088 Old 01-28-2004, 06:14 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by gregbl
Hi all,

Larry, is there any chance you could run my address through your topo mapping program to tell me what chances I have for OTA HDTV? 17523 214th Ave NE, Woodinville.

I've got good DirecTV HDTV and I had an installer come to mount an HDTV antenna. Unfortunately, the one he wanted to mount was extremely ugly and wouldn't pass my WAF test. So, I had him take it down. During the test and without any positioning whatsoever, he was able to pull in quite a few high-def digital OTA channels. I'm hoping that either a Zenith Silver Sensor or the new Winegard SquareShooter will be the answer.

Thanks,
Greg

Greg - your LOS to QA towers looks pretty good. You just barely miss a hill to the southwest. Keep your antenna as high up as practical. I just got an email today saying that the Winegard SquareShooter solved a problem that the CM4228 could not (downtown Seattle multipath galore). It is not as high gain as the 4228 but that is moot below 40 miles. Good luck.

Larry

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post #635 of 10088 Old 01-28-2004, 06:18 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by sund
Larry,

Can you check this location?

63rd and 114th, Bellevue 98006.

Thanks.

Welcome to the AVS forum. You have no hills to worry about, so it's all up to antenna type and placement. Good luck.

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post #636 of 10088 Old 01-28-2004, 09:44 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by quarque
Greg - your LOS to QA towers looks pretty good. You just barely miss a hill to the southwest. Keep your antenna as high up as practical. I just got an email today saying that the Winegard SquareShooter solved a problem that the CM4228 could not (downtown Seattle multipath galore). It is not as high gain as the 4228 but that is moot below 40 miles. Good luck.

Larry

Thanks a bunch Larry!

I may try the Winegard SquareShooter and see what type of reception I get. Fortunately I'm on the higher part of the west side of a hill, so I get a pretty good shot over most of the trees.

Whatever happens, I'll report my results back here in this thread.
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post #637 of 10088 Old 01-29-2004, 04:05 PM
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This is a great thread, I see there might be some hope I can get OTA HDTV in Duvall!

Larry, could you look up my address and see if there might be hope?

14823 1st Ave NE, Duvall, WA 98019

that is about 100 yards East of Kennedy and SR-203.

Thanks so much for helping out!

-Allen
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post #638 of 10088 Old 01-29-2004, 04:34 PM
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Hello all,

I'm running a Zenith Silver Sensor indoors in Fremont. I get great reception on CBS and NBC (over 90% on a myHD) but ABC is problematic. Sometimes it comes in at 59-64% and is totally fine. Other times it's the same strength but the audio chops out a lot. Still other times I get no signal.

Does this sound like a multipath problem? Does anyone else have anything to report on ABC - in particular if they are located in Fremont? I'm halfway up Francis Ave N from 36th Ave.

PS What's the deal with FOX? 22-1 and 22-2 I don't recall which is which, but it seems FOX is off the air while the WB is still broadcasting, but on the same channel.

Thanks for the help!
Chris
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post #639 of 10088 Old 01-29-2004, 06:43 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by AllenA
This is a great thread, I see there might be some hope I can get OTA HDTV in Duvall!

Larry, could you look up my address and see if there might be hope?

14823 1st Ave NE, Duvall, WA 98019

that is about 100 yards East of Kennedy and SR-203.

Thanks so much for helping out!

-Allen

Welcome to the forum Allen. Your line of sight to the QA towers does not look very good. To the southwest (across the Snoqualmie river basin) there is a 580 foot high plateau and your house is only at about 200 feet. When you draw a straight line from your house through the top of that plateau you come out several hundred feet above the transmitters. However, there are refraction effects (bending) when the signals go over that plateau. This would bring the signal lower at your location. My advice would be to evaluate your location with borrowed equipment or by paying a pro to do it. If you have a 2-3 story house and put a mast on the roof you might be able to get OTA. But I wouldn't invest a lot of money until you can verify the conditions. Let us know what you find.

Larry

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post #640 of 10088 Old 01-29-2004, 07:00 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by cdt9c1
Hello all,

I'm running a Zenith Silver Sensor indoors in Fremont. I get great reception on CBS and NBC (over 90% on a myHD) but ABC is problematic. Sometimes it comes in at 59-64% and is totally fine. Other times it's the same strength but the audio chops out a lot. Still other times I get no signal.

Does this sound like a multipath problem? Does anyone else have anything to report on ABC - in particular if they are located in Fremont? I'm halfway up Francis Ave N from 36th Ave.

PS What's the deal with FOX? 22-1 and 22-2 I don't recall which is which, but it seems FOX is off the air while the WB is still broadcasting, but on the same channel.

Thanks for the help!
Chris

Chris - I don't live in Fremont but I can answer some of your questions. Your problem with ABC does sound like multipath. This is very tricky to solve - it is almost all trial and error. The first thing to try is the location and orientation of the SS antenna. Try everything you can. The next thing would be an attenuator since you are so close to the towers. The idea being to reduce all the signals and hope the survivor is the one you want. The next step would be to try a different antenna. There is a lot of talk about the Winegard Square Shooter. I've looked at the specs and it is impressive in that it has very low sensitivity to anything not coming at it from the front (+/- 30 degrees).

As for FOX, the towers owned by 13 and 22 were being shared since the stations are owned by the same company. So both Capitol Hill and Gold Mtn. near Bremerton were carrying both DT signals. This "cross-carriage" ended on Jan. 1st because of some legal entanglements with licensing of programs and coverage etc. So now we have to get 22 from CH and 13 from Bremerton. Unfortunately for you and lots of people Bremerton is not available because of hills. You have Discovery Park in the way. The estimate I got from the CE at KCPQ was that it will take a while to get cross-carriage going again. It's all about money, what else.

Larry

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post #641 of 10088 Old 01-29-2004, 08:05 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by quarque
Greg - your LOS to QA towers looks pretty good. You just barely miss a hill to the southwest. Keep your antenna as high up as practical. I just got an email today saying that the Winegard SquareShooter solved a problem that the CM4228 could not (downtown Seattle multipath galore). It is not as high gain as the 4228 but that is moot below 40 miles. Good luck.

Larry

Larry,

I'm in Lynnwood and about 16-17 miles away from the main local DTV towers in Seattle. You have previously confirmed that my location has a good LOS. My problem is that I have a band of very tall trees right behind my house (in the direction of Seattle) and I'm afraid that these will prevent me from getting a signal. Do you think the Square Shooter would be my best bet or would the 4228 be better? Any ideas?

Also, is there an "easy" way to confirm I can receive a signal before I go and buy a receiver? I really don't want to go through all the trouble of ordering the receiver and antenna and then if I find out that I can't get a good signal, I've got to return everything. Is there a local company perhaps that can check my location for a small fee?

Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
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post #642 of 10088 Old 01-29-2004, 08:34 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by subspace
Larry,

I'm in Lynnwood and about 16-17 miles away from the main local DTV towers in Seattle. You have previously confirmed that my location has a good LOS. My problem is that I have a band of very tall trees right behind my house (in the direction of Seattle) and I'm afraid that these will prevent me from getting a signal. Do you think the Square Shooter would be my best bet or would the 4228 be better? Any ideas?

Also, is there an "easy" way to confirm I can receive a signal before I go and buy a receiver? I really don't want to go through all the trouble of ordering the receiver and antenna and then if I find out that I can't get a good signal, I've got to return everything. Is there a local company perhaps that can check my location for a small fee?

Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

There are professional installers who will evaluate your location for $75-$100 or free if you pay for an install. How is your reception of analog UHF?

I would lean towards the 4228 because of its higher gain and larger area. Try to buy your stuff at places with a lenient return policy. Many understand that it is all a crap shoot until you hook it up and try. Talk to the HD resellers in your area about installers or post a separate plea on this forum to see if there are any recommendations from members.

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post #643 of 10088 Old 01-30-2004, 11:12 AM
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Quote:


Welcome to the forum Allen. Your line of sight to the QA towers does not look very good. To the southwest (across the Snoqualmie river basin) there is a 580 foot high plateau and your house is only at about 200 feet. When you draw a straight line from your house through the top of that plateau you come out several hundred feet above the transmitters. However, there are refraction effects (bending) when the signals go over that plateau. This would bring the signal lower at your location. My advice would be to evaluate your location with borrowed equipment or by paying a pro to do it. If you have a 2-3 story house and put a mast on the roof you might be able to get OTA. But I wouldn't invest a lot of money until you can verify the conditions. Let us know what you find.

Thanks for the info, I'll probably wait until DTV comes out with the HDTV Tivo, then try and pick up OTA. I was never too hopeful, but it is good to know there might be a small chance.

Thanks

-Allen
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post #644 of 10088 Old 01-30-2004, 11:43 AM
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Here's the latest update. If everything looks good, I'll change it from DRAFT status and see if I can get it linked to in the main FAQ.

-Lance

 

puget sound dtv faq.zip 127.5234375k . file
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post #645 of 10088 Old 01-30-2004, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lkinley
Here's the latest update. If everything looks good, I'll change it from DRAFT status and see if I can get it linked to in the main FAQ.

-Lance

Lance - the only thing you might add is the new Winegard Square Shooter (WSS) antenna to the list. It is getting good reviews from people and won an award at a recent trade show. I recently received an email from Don W. who retired from KOMO and still consults on DTV projects. He mentioned that the WSS solved a tricky multipath problem in downtown Seattle that had stymied even the CM 4228. The specs on the WSS look very good. Not as high gain as the 4228 but plenty for those within 30 miles of a tower. Only drawback? Price ~$100.

Larry

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post #646 of 10088 Old 01-30-2004, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by quarque
Lance - the only thing you might add is the new Winegard Square Shooter (WSS) antenna to the list...

Larry

I have ordered this antenna and as soon as it comes I'll be able to do a review of it and tell everyone how it does for me. I'm expecting it sometime next week, so I should have it functional before next weekend.
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post #647 of 10088 Old 01-31-2004, 07:41 PM
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I find it interesting that some of the "experts" poo-poo this new antenna but most of the people who are actually using it find it works great. So who does one believe? In my 20+ years in a hi-tech industry, I have found that the "real world" beats the "book world" much of the time. Design specs just don't tell the whole story. I'm not saying that there aren't some unattractive things in the SS specs, but on this one I tend to think it is not a gimmick like Terk and some others that just don't work (in any world). We look forward to your report Greg.

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post #648 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 10:21 AM
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subspace - I'm just north of Fred Meyer in Lynnwood and get all the DTV signals strongly except KCPQ Bremerton, which requires a rotation. No trees in my way. I'm using a 20 year old medium sized UHF VHF combo on the roof. I'd do what someone suggested, try an antenna from a store like Radio Shack, with a liberal return policy. Good luck.
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post #649 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jiff
subspace - I'm just north of Fred Meyer in Lynnwood and get all the DTV signals strongly except KCPQ Bremerton, which requires a rotation. No trees in my way. I'm using a 20 year old medium sized UHF VHF combo on the roof. I'd do what someone suggested, try an antenna from a store like Radio Shack, with a liberal return policy. Good luck.

Thanks Jiff,
What receiver do you use?

I'm considering the RCA ATSC11 which is going for about $400. I'm sure the tree behind my house will reduce (if not eliminate) my signal strength but I'm hoping the combination of a good antenna and a receiver which is good at accepting "weak" signals will work for me. Thanks again!
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post #650 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 12:27 PM
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Is the adversion to a rotator the reason for not using a Yagi in the Puget Sound area? If you are having a tough time I would suggest a Yagi

I use a Channelmaster 4248 and CM7775 preamp with a rotator.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

I get great reception even in really bad weather. I have used the Radio
Shack Yagi. The 15-2160 might work for a lot of folks at $24 and like its been said the return policy at Radio Shack is pretty darn good.

http://www.radioshack.com/category.a...2%5F000&Page=1

I also had good luck with the Antennacraft MXU59 which is down to 41.12 list price.
http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/MXU.htm



You may need a rotator with a yagi but its a good thing for two reasons to use the yagi. It is highly directional which usually gives you a stronger signal and the second is it more resistant to multipath. Thats why I use a yagi. I have a lot of trees between the towers and my house and I am able to fine tune my reception to gain a highly dependable signal even with the mulipath.

RJW
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post #651 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 02:36 PM
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subspace - I have the Zenith 1080. I originally had the Mits 400(?) and couldn't get KCPQ and the others by pointing my antenna between Seattle and Bremerton (KCPQ). I read here that the Zenith was more receptive than the Mits so replaced it, but it didn't do any better than the Mits. I bought the Zenith a couple years ago and don't think it's on the market anymore. Don't know anything about the newer STBs.
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post #652 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wezar
Is the adversion to a rotator the reason for not using a Yagi in the Puget Sound area? If you are having a tough time I would suggest a Yagi

I use a Channelmaster 4248 and CM7775 preamp with a rotator.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

I get great reception even in really bad weather. I have used the Radio
Shack Yagi. The 15-2160 might work for a lot of folks at $24 and like its been said the return policy at Radio Shack is pretty darn good.

http://www.radioshack.com/category.a...2%5F000&Page=1

I also had good luck with the Antennacraft MXU59 which is down to 41.12 list price.
http://www.antennacraft-tdp.com/MXU.htm

You may need a rotator with a yagi but its a good thing for two reasons to use the yagi. It is highly directional which usually gives you a stronger signal and the second is it more resistant to multipath. Thats why I use a yagi. I have a lot of trees between the towers and my house and I am able to fine tune my reception to gain a highly dependable signal even with the mulipath.

Thanks for the info wezar... Now I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go with a yagi...? I suppose I should start out with a less directional option (like the 4228) and if I'm still in need of a stronger signal I could try a yagi.

I find this all a bit of a pain since I need to buy the receiver, buy the antenna, install the antenna (at least install it well enough to properly test it) and then it still may not work... I'm desperate enough for HDTV that I'm sure I'll go through all this trouble, but I still wish it was easier.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I think I'm going to order the RCA ATSC11 now and then try and find an antenna locally. Does anyone know if there is a place in the Puget Sound region that sell Channel Master and also accepts returns...?
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post #653 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 07:41 PM
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Wezar:
I'm with you.
I use a 4248 and a rotator and get amazing reception from all HD channels.
Highly recommend to anyone encountering problems.
Tom
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post #654 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 08:06 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by wezar
Is the adversion to a rotator the reason for not using a Yagi in the Puget Sound area? If you are having a tough time I would suggest a Yagi

I use a Channelmaster 4248 and CM7775 preamp with a rotator.

...

You may need a rotator with a yagi but its a good thing for two reasons to use the yagi. It is highly directional which usually gives you a stronger signal and the second is it more resistant to multipath. Thats why I use a yagi. I have a lot of trees between the towers and my house and I am able to fine tune my reception to gain a highly dependable signal even with the mulipath.

see: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

If you look at the polar plots (not the gain plots) for the 4228 and 4248 you will see that the 4228 is actually slightly more directional (as well as higher gain). There is no "aversion" to yagis, just a preference to the 4228 for its performance. In most situations you would be hard pressed to tell any difference between the two because they have very similar specs. You can use a rotor with the 4228 if needed. Most people try to avoid the extra expense. Depending on your location it may not be an option. Some people don't like the long boom of the yagi design (difficult to rotate in an attic for instance).

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post #655 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 08:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by subspace
Thanks Jiff,
What receiver do you use?

I'm considering the RCA ATSC11 which is going for about $400. I'm sure the tree behind my house will reduce (if not eliminate) my signal strength but I'm hoping the combination of a good antenna and a receiver which is good at accepting "weak" signals will work for me. Thanks again!

You might want to check with Magnolia A/V. They had a bunch of Sammy 151's they were unloading for around $250.
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post #656 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 09:21 PM
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I agree on the attic installation issue. Still I think the 4248 is a better antenna for outdoor use. But then again I have not tried the 4228 yet. I based my choice on others recomendations, including the stark electronics site.

"CM #4248 DIAMOND QUANTUM I consider it the best UHF tv antenna on the market today."

I have used a Panny DST-50, RCA DTC-100 and Mits SRHD400. The SRHD400 died and has been replaced by a Sony HD300. I recorded the Superbowl today with no problems on the DST-50 a first generation reciever.


I will have to try the 4228 this year just to see if it makes a difference.

I just thought others might give a Yagi a chance when others don't work.


Edit: After looking at the data a 4228 should be the better antenna. I will have to give one a try.

RJW
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post #657 of 10088 Old 02-01-2004, 09:41 PM
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THe general rule of thumb is that as you increase gain with UHF antennas, you become more directional.

I have the 4228 on a 10-foot mast in Sammamish, 15 miles out from the antennas in Seattle, and 37 (??) from Bremerton. We point directly into a large grove of trees. Get signals in the 70's-90's on all relevant channels (six networks).
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post #658 of 10088 Old 02-02-2004, 05:11 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by JM Anthony
You might want to check with Magnolia A/V. They had a bunch of Sammy 151's they were unloading for around $250.

Wow, $250 sounds like a pretty good price. Does anyone know if the Samsung 151 is the "same" as the RCA ATSC11? I think I read something recently where someone said they were essentially the same unit with slightly different enclosure case and remote...

Also, do you happen to know if Magnolia sells the 4228?

Thanks again for all this infomration! Everyone's posts are really helpful.
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post #659 of 10088 Old 02-02-2004, 11:14 AM
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Magnolia does not sell the 4228. You have either Frys or Pringle Electronics in Everett as local options. Online vendors may be your best bet. See the Puget Sound DTV FAQ I've put together and posted in this thread for specific info.

I would suggest a newer DTV tuner than the Sammy 151 or RCA ATSC11. The LG LST-3100A (which I own) is a next generation tuner that has gotten rave reviews on it's ability to lock onto signals and filter multipath. One of these can be had for $350. It has DVI/HDCP, component, RGB (VGA), S-video and composite outputs and both optical and coaxial digital as well as regular stereo RCA audio outputs. It also has a plethora of scaling options (expand,shrink,crop,letterbox) and can output 1080i/720p/480p/480i. It has simultaneous 480i output on the s-video/composite regardless of what the HD output is doing. There is one problem with this unit, however. It is really hard to find in stock!

-Lance
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post #660 of 10088 Old 02-02-2004, 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by lkinley
Magnolia does not sell the 4228. You have either Frys or Pringle Electronics in Everett as local options. Online vendors may be your best bet. See the Puget Sound DTV FAQ I've put together and posted in this thread for specific info.

I would suggest a newer DTV tuner than the Sammy 151 or RCA ATSC11. The LG LST-3100A (which I own) is a next generation tuner that has gotten rave reviews on it's ability to lock onto signals and filter multipath. One of these can be had for $350. It has DVI/HDCP, component, RGB (VGA), S-video and composite outputs and both optical and coaxial digital as well as regular stereo RCA audio outputs. It also has a plethora of scaling options (expand,shrink,crop,letterbox) and can output 1080i/720p/480p/480i. It has simultaneous 480i output on the s-video/composite regardless of what the HD output is doing. There is one problem with this unit, however. It is really hard to find in stock!

-Lance

Lance, That's funny that you suggested the 3100A because I am now leaning toward that unit instead of the ATSC11. I've been reading various threads and it does seem to be a better unit (at a very good price). Did you buy your 3100A locally or via mail? I'm thinking that I will buy it locally if I can find it? Do you know if Fry's carries the LGs?
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