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post #17641 of 17668 Old 10-24-2014, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Hey unsmiley,

Where are you located, and what brands and model numbers are both of your analog to digital converter boxes?

Perhaps the converter box cannot display "3.10" until it receives the PSIP information from the broadcaster. Once the station is received, the "3.1" may change to "3.10" This I why I recently suggested to another OTA viewer who had problems receiving WJLP and has a similar setup to yours to manually enter "3.1"

You should know that her reception problem was satisfactorily resolved with the helpful suggestions from myself and others on this forum.


Hard to determine the cause of your reception problems without some testing. Based on your post here, the causes could be the tuner or the location of the TV.

What I can confirm is that the four channel 3 subchannels are or were from WBQM-LD. WBQM-LD transmits on UHF channel 50, and last identified with virtual channels 3-1 through 3-4 in November 2013. That being said, it is plausible that the weak signal you were detecting was, in fact, that of WJLP.


The rescan, IMHO, is an overused panacea that rarely resolves reception problems. Local broadcasters, from the small independent station to major market network O&O affiliates, are oftentimes just as guilty as the most well-meaning hobbyist when suggesting that viewers rescan their devices.

The worst example is when a new subchannel is added and the station announces that viewers can obtain it by rescanning. The fact is that MOST new subchannels automatically are added to consumer equipment as soon as they are lit up by the broadcaster, so long as the channel is already added on the consumer equipment.

Receiving VHF-Lo television stations requires extensive patience and a time commitment for plenty of trial-and-error. If a viewer does not have the appropriate attic or rooftop antenna with VHF-Lo elements, that viewer can expect the aforesaid challenges.

MY SUGGESTIONS: I will offer the same suggestion to you as I did two weeks ago to the viewer I referenced above.

Be sure the Rabbit-Ear antenna is securely and snugly connected to the Converter Box. Using the numeric keypad, manually tune the TV/Converter Box to RF 3, 3-1, and/or 3-10. Extend the rabbit-ear elements fully and position the elements so they are parallel to the floor.

It is essential that the converter box is tuned to RF 3 while you are adjusting the antenna. That is the only way you can ascertain in real time whether or not you can obtain a useable signal.

One other thing: It is advisable to wait to try this until the present weather system consisting of rain and wind moves out of the area. The current forecast calls for this to occur late this afternoon.
My digital to analog converter box is a Digital Stream DTX9900 from Radio Shack (which is hooked up to my old analog tube Sony Wega Trinitron 27" TV). My other TV (the one that successfully picks up Me-TV) is a modern LCD screen Sony Bravia 32BX300 that has a built in tuner (ie: no digital to analog converter necessary).

I am located on the Upper East Side of Manhattan on the 12th floor of a high rise.

I will try your antenna suggestion when I get home.
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post #17642 of 17668 Old 10-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Hey unsmiley,

Where are you located, and what brands and model numbers are both of your analog to digital converter boxes?

Perhaps the converter box cannot display "3.10" until it receives the PSIP information from the broadcaster. Once the station is received, the "3.1" may change to "3.10" This I why I recently suggested to another OTA viewer who had problems receiving WJLP and has a similar setup to yours to manually enter "3.1"

You should know that her reception problem was satisfactorily resolved with the helpful suggestions from myself and others on this forum.


Hard to determine the cause of your reception problems without some testing. Based on your post here, the causes could be the tuner or the location of the TV.

What I can confirm is that the four channel 3 subchannels are or were from WBQM-LD. WBQM-LD transmits on UHF channel 50, and last identified with virtual channels 3-1 through 3-4 in November 2013. That being said, it is plausible that the weak signal you were detecting was, in fact, that of WJLP.


The rescan, IMHO, is an overused panacea that rarely resolves reception problems. Local broadcasters, from the small independent station to major market network O&O affiliates, are oftentimes just as guilty as the most well-meaning hobbyist when suggesting that viewers rescan their devices.

The worst example is when a new subchannel is added and the station announces that viewers can obtain it by rescanning. The fact is that MOST new subchannels automatically are added to consumer equipment as soon as they are lit up by the broadcaster, so long as the channel is already added on the consumer equipment.

Receiving VHF-Lo television stations requires extensive patience and a time commitment for plenty of trial-and-error. If a viewer does not have the appropriate attic or rooftop antenna with VHF-Lo elements, that viewer can expect the aforesaid challenges.

MY SUGGESTIONS: I will offer the same suggestion to you as I did two weeks ago to the viewer I referenced above.

Be sure the Rabbit-Ear antenna is securely and snugly connected to the Converter Box. Using the numeric keypad, manually tune the TV/Converter Box to RF 3, 3-1, and/or 3-10. Extend the rabbit-ear elements fully and position the elements so they are parallel to the floor.

It is essential that the converter box is tuned to RF 3 while you are adjusting the antenna. That is the only way you can ascertain in real time whether or not you can obtain a useable signal.

One other thing: It is advisable to wait to try this until the present weather system consisting of rain and wind moves out of the area. The current forecast calls for this to occur late this afternoon.
Update: Giacomo Siffredi, Your antenna trick works!

I tuned channel 3.1 on the converter box, and it jumped to (and displayed) 3.10, and bang -- I am getting Me-TV!! I then was able to add the channel and save it as a favorite on my converter box. I haven't played with it yet, but will this mean I have to move the antenna to the parallel to floor position every time I want to view Me-TV?
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post #17643 of 17668 Old 10-26-2014, 07:34 PM
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WNYE still gone

I haven't been able to get WNYE, ch 25 on OTA here, for 4 months. "Democracy Now" is a necessity! I'm in Westchester County, just north of NYC, and I have an outdoor antenna that I use indoors. (Yes, it works beautifully.) I have an analog TV with a converter box, but don't know if that makes a difference. When I try any of the ch 25 stations, 25.1, 25.2, 25.3, I get ch 24 instead. In July I posted that I had lost the station, and there was a reply about the station coming back after some upgrades. 4 months?


(Why is the default avatar a glass of water flying horizontally through the air? ;-)

Last edited by foxycat; 10-26-2014 at 08:16 PM.
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post #17644 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by foxycat View Post
I haven't been able to get WNYE, ch 25 on OTA here, for 4 months. "Democracy Now" is a necessity! I'm in Westchester County, just north of NYC, and I have an outdoor antenna that I use indoors. (Yes, it works beautifully.) I have an analog TV with a converter box, but don't know if that makes a difference. When I try any of the ch 25 stations, 25.1, 25.2, 25.3, I get ch 24 instead. In July I posted that I had lost the station, and there was a reply about the station coming back after some upgrades. 4 months?


(Why is the default avatar a glass of water flying horizontally through the air? ;-)
For now you can get your Democracy Now via their online stream/podcast
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post #17645 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 04:30 AM
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Thumbs up Congratulations, unsmiley!

Congratulations, unsmiley!
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Originally Posted by unsmiley View Post
Update: Giacomo Siffredi, Your antenna trick works!

I tuned channel 3.1 on the converter box, and it jumped to (and displayed) 3.10, and bang -- I am getting Me-TV!! I then was able to add the channel and save it as a favorite on my converter box. I haven't played with it yet, but will this mean I have to move the antenna to the parallel to floor position every time I want to view Me-TV?
I am very happy that I was able to successfully assist you to receive WJLP.

Yes, I anticipate your antenna will need to remain oriented in this position in order to receive the station.

What you now have to determine is how your reception for other TV stations is while the antenna is positioned in this manner. Unless you find your reception for other stations is compromised, I would not readjust the antenna.

If the antenna is readjusted for whatever reason, you will not permanently lose WJLP because getting reception back is as simple as returning the antenna to the WJLP viewing position.

Here is what you should now do: Do not rescan. With the antenna now oriented for reception of WJLP, you should tune through each station using "channel up" to determine if you continue to receive all of the stations you did before, and if any of the stations are weaker or missing. Please report back here with the results when you test this out.
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post #17646 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by foxycat View Post
I haven't been able to get WNYE, ch 25 on OTA here, for 4 months. "Democracy Now" is a necessity! I'm in Westchester County, just north of NYC, and I have an outdoor antenna that I use indoors. (Yes, it works beautifully.) I have an analog TV with a converter box, but don't know if that makes a difference. When I try any of the ch 25 stations, 25.1, 25.2, 25.3, I get ch 24 instead. In July I posted that I had lost the station, and there was a reply about the station coming back after some upgrades. 4 months?


(Why is the default avatar a glass of water flying horizontally through the air? ;-)

It did come back for me about a week or so ago. Now I get it in the mid 80's while before it was under 60% and dropping out or completely gone.


WNYE Ch 25 is actually real channel 24. 25 is the virtual or display channel. Your problem may be that for your device you may have to do a rescan to pick up new found channels.


When you keyed in 25 this is the real channel number for virtual channel 24. As an alternative you can try keying in 24 and you might tune in WNYE 25.1.
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post #17647 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by foxycat View Post
(Why is the default avatar a glass of water flying horizontally through the air? ;-)
Because the Dinosaur Holding Up The World avatar was too badass to assign to every forum member

Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
WNYE Ch 25 is actually real channel 24. 25 is the virtual or display channel. Your problem may be that for your device you may have to do a rescan to pick up new found channels.

When you keyed in 25 this is the real channel number for virtual channel 24. As an alternative you can try keying in 24 and you might tune in WNYE 25.1.
Good suggestions, Len. Foxycat should try them.

But honestly, this kind of thing is a perfect example of another way the FCC and the federal government screwed up the DTV transition. The mess of WNYE-TV and WASA is stupid. I know, WNYE-TV was on RF 24 pre-transition, and remained there, and there were hundreds of great reasons they did, blah blah blah...

But in this case, WNYE-TV was ONE CHANNEL AWAY from RF 25. WNYE-TV intended to continue identifying as "25" both through PSIP and on-air branding. The station management should have secured authorization, and the engineers should have retuned the transmitter to broadcast on RF 25 after midnight on June 12, 2009. That would have left RF 24 free and clear for future use and appropriate branding. Instead, WNYE-TV remained on RF 24 but demanded no one else identify as "25", and shortly thereafter WASA-LD Port Jervis was permitted to move its transmitter to Manhattan and broadcast from ESB on RF 25. That station originally identified with its former analog channel, "64", but then changed to "24".

Most consumer equipment provides end users no ability to manually enter an RF channel. Most of those consumers are left with only the rescan option. If the rescan fails to see both signals, the consumer is deprived of one or the other.

Virtual channel numbers are necessary, but the implementation was flawed. And any flaws are more prominent in major markets in which the majority of channels are occupied.
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post #17648 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 06:37 AM
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good point rocco, but who is gonna care in 5-10 years when ota is just fleeting memory.
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post #17649 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Because the Dinosaur Holding Up The World avatar was too badass to assign to every forum member
Actually, he's one of the original Netscape-Mozilla logos from way back when. Here's my entire collection:
https://picasaweb.google.com/gertyut...eat=directlink

The glass of water is as good as any other guess.


Oops, never looked at their website. It's not just "Democracy Now," but a number of non-commercial shows I watched as a supplement to PBS. This happened years after the conversion to digital, and I don't understand the technical aspects of this, am not an A-V geek. Have they fixed whatever was wrong with it? I'll try a rescan tonight, but if I can't get back 25, is it gone forever? Or at least till my TV dies and I'm forced to buy a digital one?

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post #17650 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 09:26 AM
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good point rocco, but who is gonna care in 5-10 years when ota is just fleeting memory.
There is still a portion of Americans, mostly elderly I suspect, who can't afford to pay for TV reception, and rely on OTA. I read some stats when researching for an antenna, maybe on this site or antennaweb. Then there are those who can't afford TV service and buy cable anyway, because TV is one of the most important things in their life. I am not one of those.

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post #17651 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 09:27 AM
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Actually, he's one of the original Netscape-Mozilla logos from way back when. Here's my entire collection:
https://picasaweb.google.com/gertyut...eat=directlink

The glass of water is as good as any other guess.


Oops, never looked at their website. It's not just "Democracy Now," but a number of non-commercial shows I watched as a supplement to PBS. This happened years after the conversion to digital, and I don't understand the technical aspects of this, am not an A-V geek. Have they fixed whatever was wrong with it? I'll try a rescan tonight, but if I can't get back 25, is it gone forever? Or at least till my TV dies and I'm forced to buy a digital one?
they went back to full power a month ago and its back to normal. im getting it at about 90%. you can see here: http://www.rabbitears.info/tvdx/sign...tuner1/WNYE-TV

you're not giving us enough information about your setup. many, many, many factors can cause this. is your antenna outside? did it move? did an element break? etc, etc.

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post #17652 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 09:49 AM
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they went back to full power a month ago and its back to normal. im getting it at about 90%. you can see here: http://www.rabbitears.info/tvdx/sign...tuner1/WNYE-TV

you're not giving us enough information about your setup. many, many, many factors can cause this. is your antenna outside? did it move? did an element break? etc, etc.
Antenna's in the same place, no, not outside, not allowed in my apt. bldg.
Nothing has broken. Just re-scanned, and it's back! But I'd like to understand the problem. Was ch 24 too close to 25, and WNYE needed a more powerful signal?

I have such a clever setup. :-D No one else in my bldg or any of my friends know you can get reception without cable or FIOS. They all question me like I have green horns sprouting from my head. I also have a number of stations I didn't have before the changeover to digital.

Last edited by foxycat; 10-27-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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post #17653 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 10:02 AM
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I don't suppose anyone knows how I can get back WLIW (ch 21 here) which I lost in the conversion? Without paying for cable of FIOS.

Last edited by foxycat; 10-27-2014 at 10:12 AM.
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post #17654 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 11:40 AM
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So FWIW, I'll just update my WJLP results. As I said, a SD-only Insignia receiver using old rabbit ears picked up the station and assigned 3-10. As did my Sony Bravia LCD TV (I use this with FIOS but just for testing tried it with the rabbit ears). My cheap-O COBY LCD TV will not pick it up, although it will not accept entry of ANY double digit subchannel (-10). The HD/ATSC Happauge TV card in my PC won't tune it either. So my theory is that the assignment of the double-digit channel suffix will not be compatible with all tuners. Will see for sure once they change to 33-1. When is this happening?
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post #17655 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by foxycat View Post
Antenna's in the same place, no, not outside, not allowed in my apt. bldg.
Nothing has broken. Just re-scanned, and it's back! But I'd like to understand the problem. Was ch 24 too close to 25, and WNYE needed a more powerful signal?

I have such a clever setup. :-D No one else in my bldg or any of my friends know you can get reception without cable or FIOS. They all question me like I have green horns sprouting from my head. I also have a number of stations I didn't have before the changeover to digital.
they were doing work on the antenna at 4 times square when they reduced power months ago, we think it was the installation of the WJLP antenna. when that ended, WNYE went back to full power.

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post #17656 of 17668 Old 10-27-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Congratulations, unsmiley!

I am very happy that I was able to successfully assist you to receive WJLP.

Yes, I anticipate your antenna will need to remain oriented in this position in order to receive the station.

What you now have to determine is how your reception for other TV stations is while the antenna is positioned in this manner. Unless you find your reception for other stations is compromised, I would not readjust the antenna.

If the antenna is readjusted for whatever reason, you will not permanently lose WJLP because getting reception back is as simple as returning the antenna to the WJLP viewing position.

Here is what you should now do: Do not rescan. With the antenna now oriented for reception of WJLP, you should tune through each station using "channel up" to determine if you continue to receive all of the stations you did before, and if any of the stations are weaker or missing. Please report back here with the results when you test this out.
I am leaving the antenna in this slightly inconvenient (parallel to floor) position to assure reception of Me-TV. I seem to be getting all the stations I did receive before. The WJLP reception is generally good, except like my reception of WNET 13, there are some drop outs when I walk around certain spots in the apartment. Would elevating the antenna stop this? Also why is there no EPG (programming guide) information with WJLP?
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post #17657 of 17668 Old 10-28-2014, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Interesting. In that case you provide, it's putting the RF38 channels before the RF44 channels, and THEN sorting by virtual channel number.

- Trip
And if I was a TV tuner, I would perform the same way

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Originally Posted by uhfyagi View Post
good point rocco, but who is gonna care in 5-10 years when ota is just fleeting memory.
It stinks how the federal government is attempting to marginalize broadcast television to profit the big campaign donor cellular companies. I wish it wasn't true and I could say it's only smellz....

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxycat View Post
Actually, he's one of the original Netscape-Mozilla logos from way back when. Here's my entire collection:
https://picasaweb.google.com/gertyut...eat=directlink

The glass of water is as good as any other guess.
Yep. Nice vintage collection you have there
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post #17658 of 17668 Old 10-28-2014, 05:33 AM
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I have such a clever setup. :-D No one else in my bldg or any of my friends know you can get reception without cable or FIOS. They all question me like I have green horns sprouting from my head. I also have a number of stations I didn't have before the changeover to digital.[/QUOTE]

I live in a suburban house with antenna on roof. My neighbors are all amazed I don't send $100 per month to the cableco....they all HATE that bill. Still, even though I offered to help get them OTA, no takers-the concept of putting up an antenna is outside the box. Don't miss cabletv at all, really. Getting John Stewart in realtime isn't worth $1200 per year (sorry John), and you can get it via hulu next day. Kudos on you getting RF 3 indoors.

My Sony HDD tuner lets you go for RF channel, then you can tune up or down for subchannels. My Tivo isn't as engineer oriented, but found 3.10 with no issues. Interestingly, the guide on Tivo has "no listings" for 3.10, saying To Be Announced.....

I have the same issue with WASA locking up as virtual 3.1, yet can't get a picture. The Sony allows .10, so it works...and at 88%, 40 miles north of NYC-not bad for 3, but back in analog days, I could TX DX 3 from Philadelphia when the band opened, sometimes more than TV 2 !.

Oh, and I can't get WLIW.....it is just in the wrong direction, a few big hills are in the way....

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post #17659 of 17668 Old 10-28-2014, 08:54 AM
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I live in a suburban house with antenna on roof. My neighbors are all amazed I don't send $100 per month to the cableco....they all HATE that bill. Still, even though I offered to help get them OTA, no takers-the concept of putting up an antenna is outside the box. Don't miss cabletv at all, really. Getting John Stewart in realtime isn't worth $1200 per year (sorry John), and you can get it via hulu next day. Kudos on you getting RF 3 indoors.
Pro sports and HBO/Showtime series programming are the biggest reasons for cable buy-in. Once they become more available outside cable that may turn the tide.
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post #17660 of 17668 Old 10-28-2014, 06:53 PM
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Pro sports and HBO/Showtime series programming are the biggest reasons for cable buy-in. Once they become more available outside cable that may turn the tide.
never happening, everything is on cable, pretty sure the world series and superbowl will be on cable only in 5-10 years
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post #17661 of 17668 Old 10-28-2014, 07:05 PM
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never happening, everything is on cable, pretty sure the world series and superbowl will be on cable only in 5-10 years
No way, more people watched the Super Bowl last year than than the amount of paid tv subs in the whole country by 13 million people. Every year the amount of people that watch the SB increases while paid tv subs decrease.
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post #17662 of 17668 Old 10-28-2014, 10:12 PM
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Don't be so sure. HBO announced a streaming only product set to be available early in 2015.

Sports might be more of a holdout since many of the sports networks are owned at least partly by the cable companies, but never say never.

Even though they inherited it, Comcast is one of the owners of Hulu so they are somewhat familar with the streaming game too.
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post #17663 of 17668 Old Yesterday, 02:13 PM
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No way, more people watched the Super Bowl last year than than the amount of paid tv subs in the whole country by 13 million people. Every year the amount of people that watch the SB increases while paid tv subs decrease.
my bad, I meant major sport events will not be on ota, only available online stream aka ppv.
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post #17664 of 17668 Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Aero 1 View Post
No way, more people watched the Super Bowl last year than than the amount of paid tv subs in the whole country by 13 million people. Every year the amount of people that watch the SB increases while paid tv subs decrease.
my bad, I meant major sport events will not be on ota, only available online stream aka ppv. networks don't want give anything free, when they can make a profit, and aero fiasco adds more fuel.
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post #17665 of 17668 Old Yesterday, 11:53 PM
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Still can't get WJLP OTA however WJLP was just added to FiOS and I don't like the 14:9 cropping of the MeTV feed they are doing.
The MeTV feed seems to have a lot of digital compression on the shows broadcast.
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post #17666 of 17668 Old Today, 09:33 AM
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Still can't get WJLP OTA however WJLP was just added to FiOS and I don't like the 14:9 cropping of the MeTV feed they are doing.
The MeTV feed seems to have a lot of digital compression on the shows broadcast.
is metv in Hd thru fios ?
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post #17667 of 17668 Old Today, 09:41 AM
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is metv in Hd thru fios ?
metv via OTA is already broadcast in 720p HD. Fios would use the same feed.

OTA | Netflix | Hulu+ | Amazon Prime | MLB.tv & MLS Live with No Blackouts!
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post #17668 of 17668 Old Today, 12:40 PM
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my bad, I meant major sport events will not be on ota, only available online stream aka ppv. networks don't want give anything free, when they can make a profit, and aero fiasco adds more fuel.
major sports events like the World Series, Super Bowl, Olympics will be on free tv for the foreseeable future while niche events like boxing, wrestling, UFC wil appear on PPV and/or online streaming. The major events primary revenue source is from advertising from the hardcore and casual viewer. NFL can't make money the same amount of money if it were online only.
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