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post #18661 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by 2VW View Post
WNJU is now transmitting from 1WTC. Expectation is to continue transmitting from there.
In that case, things do not look good for me when WNBC Channel 4 moves to Telemundo's neck of the woods. I just checked my reception on Channel 47, and my signal strength is only around 40. Not good.
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post #18662 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 01:40 PM
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In that case, things do not look good for me when WNBC Channel 4 moves to Telemundo's neck of the woods. I just checked my reception on Channel 47, and my signal strength is only around 40. Not good.
Criggs, Where are you located? I just tried Channel 47 and I get great reception.

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post #18663 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 01:55 PM
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Criggs, Where are you located? I just tried Channel 47 and I get great reception.
Midtown East Side of Manhattan, eastern exposure, 27th floor.
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post #18664 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 04:35 PM
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Midtown East Side of Manhattan, eastern exposure, 27th floor.
I feel like such an idiot. I live ~30 miles due north of the ESB and have no real problems with reception from the ESB and apparently from WTC either. I always assume that reception is just a matter of signal strength and distance to the transmitter. It never occurred to me that someone living in Manhattan could have worse reception due to all the tall buildings.

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post #18665 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
I feel like such an idiot. I live ~30 miles due north of the ESB and have no real problems with reception from the ESB and apparently from WTC either. I always assume that reception is just a matter of signal strength and distance to the transmitter. It never occurred to me that someone living in Manhattan could have worse reception due to all the tall buildings.
In my case, all of my stations have superhuman strength, usually 100%. As it's been explained to me, that's actually part of the problem; the signal is so strong that it's bouncing all over the place. As I recall, the term is multipath, literally meaning that the signal is coming from so many different places that the tuner is unable to get a coherent picture. It doesn't help, apparently, that the DVR+ that I use has a notoriously bad tuner that is particularly prone to this problem.

Well over half of my stations, however, have signal quality that's below 100, which is why I'm getting these problems.
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post #18666 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by criggs View Post
In my case, all of my stations have superhuman strength, usually 100%. As it's been explained to me, that's actually part of the problem; the signal is so strong that it's bouncing all over the place. As I recall, the term is multipath, literally meaning that the signal is coming from so many different places that the tuner is unable to get a coherent picture. It doesn't help, apparently, that the DVR+ that I use has a notoriously bad tuner that is particularly prone to this problem.

Well over half of my stations, however, have signal quality that's below 100, which is why I'm getting these problems.
Criggs, You do not need a strong antenna, but you do need a very directional antenna so it only latches on to one of those bounces. Because of where I live I know about big. strong (and directional) roof top antennas, but I do not know much about indoor antennas. But you cannot be the only dude in NYC facing this problem. It would help if your tuner had better multi-path rejection, but my guess is there is an indoor antenna that can help. What kind of antenna do you use right now?

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post #18667 of 18687 Old 06-12-2017, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ALP View Post
Criggs, You do not need a strong antenna, but you do need a very directional antenna so it only latches on to one of those bounces. Because of where I live I know about big. strong (and directional) roof top antennas, but I do not know much about indoor antennas. But you cannot be the only dude in NYC facing this problem. It would help if your tuner had better multi-path rejection, but my guess is there is an indoor antenna that can help. What kind of antenna do you use right now?
I've gone through three. I started out with a flat RCA antenna, then switched to a Mohu Leaf, which improved matters somewhat, added a second Leaf thinking that having two simultaneously might improve things a little, which did happen but the improvement did not last, then tried the $10 Channel Master Flatenna, which did not help at all.

If you look at the most comprehensive indoor antenna review out there, which is at https://www.cnet.com/news/the-cord-c...door-antennas/ , you will see that he conducted his tests in Manhattan using an OTA DVR (he may even have used the DVR+, I'm not sure). In other words, his conditions, supposedly, at least in Manhattan (he tested in two locations) were, supposedly, very close to mine. Nevertheless, his results were markedly superior to mine.

Unfortunately there's no such thing, apparently, as a directional indoor antenna. Instead, most of these antennas are multi-directional, as opposed to omni-directional. The theory is that by retaining directionality, but offering more than one direction, they can offer the best of both worlds. For all I know, they may be right; perhaps a multi-directional is better than a unidirectional in my situation (certainly directionality is not a config that seems to be available in indoor antennas). But better or not, it is certainly not giving me satisfactory performance.

The next thing I thought I might try is Channel Master's LTE filter. They claim that some of the problems big-city dwellers have with HD reception is interference from cell phones. And they claim that an LTE filter will get rid of some of that. At this point, the antennas that I still haven't tried which are listed at https://www.cnet.com/news/the-cord-c...door-antennas/ are all more expensive than the filter, so I'm thinking that the filter might be my next step; it costs $25.
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post #18668 of 18687 Old 06-13-2017, 03:38 AM
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there's no such thing, apparently, as a directional indoor antenna.
Making an antenna directional requires physical size for the necessary elements to focus and direct the signals. A very directional antenna, therefore, is going to be very large as that's how the physics work out. A very directional antenna of such size is unlikely to fit well in a Manhattan apartment. You cannot break or bend the laws of physics, you can only look for ways to cheat a bit and hope it's enough.

The most directional antenna in the smallest package I know of is the ClearStream 4 for UHF, it's also among the most expensive. You can add the simple dipole for some VHF reception but it is about as non-directional as anything else your linked review covers. Because of the underlying physics, a VHF antenna of comparable directionality as the C4 exhibits on UHF would require a new antenna roughly 3-5 times the overall size of the original C4. Now you can see why indoor antennas are both small and tend to perform poorly relative to their larger outdoor brethren.

You're likely wasting money on the LTE filter if you buy it. Your problem likely is multi-path which degrades signal quality and multi-path is simply a fact of life in urban areas such as yours. Always has been.
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post #18669 of 18687 Old 06-13-2017, 07:20 AM
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The most directional antenna in the smallest package I know of is the ClearStream 4 for UHF, it's also among the most expensive...a VHF antenna of comparable directionality as the C4 exhibits on UHF would require a new antenna roughly 3-5 times the overall size of the original C4...You're likely wasting money on the LTE filter if you buy it.
What I hear you saying is that there is probably not much I can do about my current situation. All the viable solutions you list have drawbacks that you adduce regarding size and expense that pretty much eliminate them for indoor use.
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post #18670 of 18687 Old 06-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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You may have to take the bull by the horns, meaning you need a tuner with strong mutipath rejection. Obviously finding such a tuner in a DVR may not be simple and it will cost more than an antenna. I am not sure if there is any advice that can be found here on the forum?

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post #18671 of 18687 Old 06-13-2017, 10:30 AM
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Looking for the vacant RF channels in NYC- a friend is going there for his wedding and needs an open channel for his wireless mics. I've turned up RF 22 as maybe an open channel, with only an LPTV CP out there and a station out in Plainview. Is this correct? Any other vacant RF frequencies?


Thanks-

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post #18672 of 18687 Old 06-14-2017, 06:44 AM
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You may have to take the bull by the horns, meaning you need a tuner with strong mutipath rejection. Obviously finding such a tuner in a DVR may not be simple and it will cost more than an antenna. I am not sure if there is any advice that can be found here on the forum?
I guess that would mean buying a new OTA DVR. I want to buy one that doesn't have subscription fees, can record at least two programs at a time, has a loadable and updateable schedule grid, records onto an external HD drive that can be detached for easy viewing and editing on a computer and where I can take full advantage of the higher quality of OTA HD by connecting the output to an HDMI port on my TV rather than pick up the signal through transcoded streaming that degrades the quality. As far as I know, the only OTA DVR that does all of that is the Channel Master DVR+, but I'm obviously very interested if there are other such devices!
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post #18673 of 18687 Old 06-14-2017, 08:04 AM
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I guess that would mean buying a new OTA DVR. I want to buy one that doesn't have subscription fees, can record at least two programs at a time, has a loadable and updateable schedule grid, records onto an external HD drive that can be detached for easy viewing and editing on a computer and where I can take full advantage of the higher quality of OTA HD by connecting the output to an HDMI port on my TV rather than pick up the signal through transcoded streaming that degrades the quality. As far as I know, the only OTA DVR that does all of that is the Channel Master DVR+, but I'm obviously very interested if there are other such devices!
Wow, that is asking a lot. I use Magnavox DVR's and their ones do two channels an HD recording, but are not computer friendly. Here is a link to their latest ones.

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post #18674 of 18687 Old 06-21-2017, 07:19 AM
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WPIX and WNET

Last month, reception from WPIX and WNET became real iffy: unreceivable much of the time. Before then, both channels came in ok, and the other channels are still ok. Is anyone else having this problem? Are the stations doing something different?

I live in Southern Monmouth with a CM4228 antenna and CM7777 preamp.

Thanks,
SalemK
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post #18675 of 18687 Old 06-21-2017, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by SalemK View Post
Last month, reception from WPIX and WNET became real iffy: unreceivable much of the time. Before then, both channels came in ok, and the other channels are still ok. Is anyone else having this problem? Are the stations doing something different?

I live in Southern Monmouth with a CM4228 antenna and CM7777 preamp.

Thanks,
SalemK
I just used the signal strength display on my last of the line Panasonic Plasma Screen TV. It says I am receiving both channels at 100% signal. All that means is I am getting a good signal at my location which is ~30 miles north of the ESB. I have a large Winegard yagi type antenna and a drop amp that doubles the antenna signal.

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post #18676 of 18687 Old 06-21-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SalemK View Post
Last month, reception from WPIX and WNET became real iffy: unreceivable much of the time. Before then, both channels came in ok, and the other channels are still ok. Is anyone else having this problem? Are the stations doing something different?

I live in Southern Monmouth with a CM4228 antenna and CM7777 preamp.

Thanks,
SalemK
It may be a good idea to look for sources of RF noise as they can destroy a VHF DTV decode.

I know a person who lost channel 11 when LED lights from a nearby restaurant were turned on.

I've personally lost channel 11 when using a Water Pik dental device. It has a DC motor and brushes which make tiny sparks.
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post #18677 of 18687 Old 06-21-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SalemK View Post
Last month, reception from WPIX and WNET became real iffy: unreceivable much of the time. Before then, both channels came in ok, and the other channels are still ok. Is anyone else having this problem? Are the stations doing something different?

I live in Southern Monmouth with a CM4228 antenna and CM7777 preamp.

Thanks,
SalemK
I am in Jackson and have my antenna pointed towards Philly stations which I find easier to pick up than NY. The exception may be channel 6 (lo-vhf) and channel 12 (hi-vhf). The latter two can be iffy, Other than those two, all other stations come in fine. I am hoping that once the NY station switch over to the new tower in lower Manhattan, the NY stations will be easier to pick up, especially 7, 11, 13.
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post #18678 of 18687 Old 06-22-2017, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalemK View Post
Last month, reception from WPIX and WNET became real iffy: unreceivable much of the time. Before then, both channels came in ok, and the other channels are still ok. Is anyone else having this problem? Are the stations doing something different?

I live in Southern Monmouth with a CM4228 antenna and CM7777 preamp.

Thanks,
SalemK
I have basically the same setup as you do. Although I now use a separate VHF antenna because I found the CM4228 is not so good at VHF reception. I also removed the CM7777 preamp and use a distro amp now. I did make modifications to the CM4288 which you can see here in this link which might help your reception, protect the elements from rust and make it look better! I found my antennas ( I have 2 CM4228) were getting corroded. The changes I made helped UHF reception which as I mentioned is the only band I use it for but I would think it might help VHF too.

I think even with my separate VHF antenna reception is not as good now as it was before the weather changed and the leaves got on the trees. VHF reception seems to be subject to more issues from all sorts of things like FM and LED interference. Appliances in the home. My computers are on the second floor with monitors facing the outside wall where my antenna is and I lose VHF reception when I am on my computer. A while back a neighbor put in LED walkway lights about 30 feet from my antenna and that shot my VHF reception. He was nice enough to work with me in getting to Malibu to fix the problem with new lights that reduced the interference.

If you follow this link you will see the change I made to the CM4228.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-...-hacks-20.html
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post #18679 of 18687 Old 06-23-2017, 05:40 AM
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WNET and WPIX were never really reliable. WABC use to be rock solid but now it breaks up just as bad. I can't believe that WJLP is so strong it is a low VHF station and it is the most reliable even during heavy rain.

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post #18680 of 18687 Old 07-03-2017, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SalemK View Post
Last month, reception from WPIX and WNET became real iffy: unreceivable much of the time. Before then, both channels came in ok, and the other channels are still ok. Is anyone else having this problem? Are the stations doing something different?

I live in Southern Monmouth with a CM4228 antenna and CM7777 preamp.

Thanks,
SalemK
I'm in Ocean Grove. There's a Winegard HD7698p up on my roof, and I've never been able to pull in WNET reliably. WPIX has always been rock solid, as it still is.

In my case, I'm convinced that the weakness with my WNET reception is from a localized noise source or multipath. I actually have a spectrum analyzer that lets me see such impacts upon the signal, more so than would be measurable with a simple "signal strength" or "signal quality" numerical rating. There's clearly a very little bit of multipath interference in the signal chart, and that combined with a slightly weak signal to begin with is just too much for any of my tuners to overcome.

We may see a few decibels more signal after the transmitter move to the Freedom Tower, so "stay tuned."

James Rothe
Monmouth County, NJ
(37 miles due S of the ESB)
My Own OTA HDTV Experience: http://www.jimrothe.com/hdtv_ota/
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post #18681 of 18687 Old 07-13-2017, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProjectSHO89 View Post
Making an antenna directional requires physical size for the necessary elements to focus and direct the signals. A very directional antenna, therefore, is going to be very large as that's how the physics work out. A very directional antenna of such size is unlikely to fit well in a Manhattan apartment. You cannot break or bend the laws of physics, you can only look for ways to cheat a bit and hope it's enough.

The most directional antenna in the smallest package I know of is the ClearStream 4 for UHF, it's also among the most expensive. You can add the simple dipole for some VHF reception but it is about as non-directional as anything else your linked review covers. Because of the underlying physics, a VHF antenna of comparable directionality as the C4 exhibits on UHF would require a new antenna roughly 3-5 times the overall size of the original C4. Now you can see why indoor antennas are both small and tend to perform poorly relative to their larger outdoor brethren.

You're likely wasting money on the LTE filter if you buy it. Your problem likely is multi-path which degrades signal quality and multi-path is simply a fact of life in urban areas such as yours. Always has been.

Annoying - what happened to the silver sensor of yore? Great directional indoor antenna!

Terk seems to have something somewhat similar, but probably overpriced. https://www.amazon.com/Terk-HDTVAZ-A...sensor+antenna
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post #18682 of 18687 Old 08-15-2017, 05:29 PM
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Anyone on Long island having issues with nbc? Used to be Rock solid, now tons of breakups. Can't wait for the move to wtc. Telemundo which is broadcasting from there now, is my highest signal. 85!!! And I am 60 miles out in Stony Brook.

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post #18683 of 18687 Old 08-15-2017, 06:17 PM
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Bad News- WPIX (Ch. 11) and WXTV (Univison) staying at Empire State Building

Hi all! New to OTA life as I just cut the cord!

Unfortunately, just read that WPIX and WXTV signed new leases at the ESB. WPIX particularly sucks as it's VHF and so difficult to get in apartment areas of NYC like mine in Forest Hills, NY. WXTV, 41, I get perfectly.
Unfortunately, I can't link to the article, as this is my first post, but google insideradio.com for the article Empire State Building, Locked In Tower Fee Suit, Signs FMs.

I purchased a Winegard Freevision and was hoping to get perfect reception as my parents do with crappy rabbit ears in Fresh Meadows NY. However, even though I'm a few miles closer to the city, I'm in Forest Hills in an apartment building on the 5th floor and even with the antenna put in an Eastern facing window, I can't get any VHF station. One night I added some aluminum foil to the antenna and was able to pick up WABC for a minute while holding it, but other than that, WABC, WPIX and WNET don't come in.

I've also tried plain ole rabbit ears just to see if I'd get the VHF stations, to no avail.

Any other suggestions to try to get these VHF stations? I miss my Antenna TV! (the station LOL) I'm open to trying other antennas, but I think I'll just be wasting time, as the Winegard is doing a great job of getting me virtually all the other UHF stations that matter, with 47 being my strongest as it's from WTC. The big test is whether WNET will come in when they switch, as they're staying on VHF and moving down a channel to 12.
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post #18684 of 18687 Old 08-15-2017, 06:21 PM
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Hi all! New to OTA life as I just cut the cord!

Unfortunately, just read that WPIX and WXTV signed new leases at the ESB. WPIX particularly sucks as it's VHF and so difficult to get in apartment areas of NYC like mine in Forest Hills, NY. WXTV, 41, I get perfectly.
Unfortunately, I can't link to the article, as this is my first post, but google insideradio.com for the article Empire State Building, Locked In Tower Fee Suit, Signs FMs.

I purchased a Winegard Freevision and was hoping to get perfect reception as my parents do with crappy rabbit ears in Fresh Meadows NY. However, even though I'm a few miles closer to the city, I'm in Forest Hills in an apartment building on the 5th floor and even with the antenna put in an Eastern facing window, I can't get any VHF station. One night I added some aluminum foil to the antenna and was able to pick up WABC for a minute while holding it, but other than that, WABC, WPIX and WNET don't come in.

I've also tried plain ole rabbit ears just to see if I'd get the VHF stations, to no avail.

Any other suggestions to try to get these VHF stations? I miss my Antenna TV! (the station LOL) I'm open to trying other antennas, but I think I'll just be wasting time, as the Winegard is doing a great job of getting me virtually all the other UHF stations that matter, with 47 being my strongest as it's from WTC. The big test is whether WNET will come in when they switch, as they're staying on VHF and moving down a channel to 12.
I must be a moron- can't figure out how to edit my post, but I mistakenly said easterly regarding my antenna position, when I meant westerly.
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post #18685 of 18687 Old 08-16-2017, 02:07 AM
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post #18686 of 18687 Old 08-16-2017, 05:09 AM
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What the article did not say is how long the renewed lease was for. With the changes coming for the repack and ATSC 3.0 it might make sense for some to stay at the ESB for another year or two.

The article did not go into any of that but maybe somewhere there may be more info on why these stations decided to stay at the ESB.
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post #18687 of 18687 Old 08-16-2017, 01:02 PM
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What the article did not say is how long the renewed lease was for. With the changes coming for the repack and ATSC 3.0 it might make sense for some to stay at the ESB for another year or two.

The article did not go into any of that but maybe somewhere there may be more info on why these stations decided to stay at the ESB.
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