Boston, MA - OTA - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 11:54 AM
Member
 
SUTTONHT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Sutton, MA
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does anyone know which shows Bob is referring to? Will this be for all WBZ programming which is not HD from CBS? Which shows are the upconverts?

Sorry, but I'm still pretty green with my new HDTV and I tend to only watch the HD stuff OTA and go upstairs to watch non HD on cable with old 27 incher.

SuttonHT

To experience it this fully... is to have spent a lot of money !!!
SUTTONHT is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 12:01 PM
Newbie
 
jdkulp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Framingham, MA
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Hess

At the risk of having lightning strike me, I am going to again raise the subject of 4:3 vs 14:9 vs 16:9 images for our upconverted progamming.

Well, I'll go on record and say I refuse to watch anything in the 14:9 format. It just plain looks aweful. If it is presented in that format, I'll switch over to the analog signal or the locals on dish.

If you're concered about burn in, I suggest one of:

1) Change the black sides to gray
2) Change the sides to logos much like you do for various sports. Have different logos for various programs so the logos don't get burned in.
3) Change to 480p broadcast for them so the user can do what they want.

That's my vote.

Daniel Kulp
jdkulp is offline  
post #453 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 12:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
steverobertson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: E. Walpole, MA USA
Posts: 5,454
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am for keeping the way it was I have RPTV and the way the shows were comming in I had no concerns about burn in. My Toshiba TV allows me to switch the modes if need be to fill in the screen. I think that all of us want the best pq available and absoulutley don't want 14.9
steverobertson is offline  
post #454 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 01:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
Doug G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Andover, MA
Posts: 822
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob - I for one would like to see the OAR retained for upconverted programming, at least for now. Truth be told I only really have the hidef receiver on when I know there's some HD content on I want to watch, but I will watch the occassional upconverted program (like when my wife forces me to watch "Survivor!" before CSI on Thursday nights.)

IMO the whole stretch thing just plain stinks. The only kind of stretching I can even tolerate is the non-linear ("natural wide" as my Elite 510 calls it) where the middle 60% of the screen retains OAR and the remaining 20% of each side is gradually stretched to fill the screen with increasing scale. It does take some getting used to, and swapping between OAR and this format will quickly make anyone realize its not perfect, but it is watchable and avoids the "burn-in" issue. Matter of fact, this is how I watch all my analog source 4:3 programming (mostly cable) to avoid burn in. Others may disagree, but I think this is the only way to go if you want to do any kind of stretch. Other than that I'd really just prefer 4:3 with side bars. Unless someone's watching 80% of their content like this than I think the need to go to grey sidebars isn't really warranted, as they are a bit more distracting than black. (My TU-HDS20 uses grey bars when set to display 4:3 material on a 16:9, this is partially the reason I went with the "natural wide" mode.)

Also, I was partially incorrect on my previous post about 'BZ-DT. Although it does map to 4-1 and identify the station call letters properly, there's no actual programming info. So maybe the PSIP is only partially working. Glad to see you got one of these, hopefully it means things may get better for me soon!
Doug G is offline  
post #455 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 01:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Benji's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: East Bridgewater, Ma., U.S.A.
Posts: 3,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob Hess: I've had my Mits 65" since last December and continually watch WBZ and WCVB digital (w/black bars) and when I am watching other non-HD stations I use the normal format (4:3 w/gray bars). I have no evidence of burn-in on what is considered one of the more notorious 'burn-in' models. I watch as much HD as I can, so the breakdown is roughly 50/50 between sidebars (black/gray) and HD. My vote is to leave WBZ as is. Thanks Bob!
Benji is offline  
post #456 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 02:46 PM
Member
 
mkingman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Northborough, MA
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The problem with 14:9 is that it not only distorts the OAR, it doesn't really fix the burn-in issue. There are still, albeit smaller, black bars on the sides. It's the worst of all potential "solutions".

The only way to "solve" the burn-in issue AND keep the OAR is to either:

a) broadcast 4:3 content inserted into a 16x9 frame w/ gray sidebars, like most RPTV's, set-top boxes, and video processors support.

OR

b) broadcast 4:3 content in 480i and put the control in the hands of the viewers. (480p doesn't work because many TVs incorrectly assume that 480p is 16:9 and lock into full mode).

I almost never watch 4:3 content via WBZ-DT. I switch to my cable feed and watch it analog so I can have gray bars (and my TiVo).

/Matt
mkingman is offline  
post #457 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 02:53 PM
Senior Member
 
SPel699187@aol.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Eliot,Maine (The Pine Tree State) USA
Posts: 320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob:

I am so used to adjusting the aspect ratio every time I go to watch something now days, I have no opinion to offer.

Steve Pelchat
SPel699187@aol.com is offline  
post #458 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 02:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Benji's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: East Bridgewater, Ma., U.S.A.
Posts: 3,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by mkingman
The problem with 14:9 is that it not only distorts the OAR, it doesn't really fix the burn-in issue. There are still, albeit smaller, black bars on the sides. It's the worst of all potential "solutions".

The only way to "solve" the burn-in issue AND keep the OAR is to either:

a) broadcast 4:3 content inserted into a 16x9 frame w/ gray sidebars, like most RPTV's, set-top boxes, and video processors support.

OR

b) broadcast 4:3 content in 480i and put the control in the hands of the viewers. (480p doesn't work because many TVs incorrectly assume that 480p is 16:9 and lock into full mode).

I almost never watch 4:3 content via WBZ-DT. I switch to my cable feed and watch it analog so I can have gray bars (and my TiVo).

/Matt

There is a third way: broadcast your local programming in 1080i HD! Then there is no problem. In all seriousness, I've viewed the new 'improved' WBZ-DT and still vote for 4:3 w/sidebars.
Benji is offline  
post #459 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 03:18 PM
Senior Member
 
atmosfera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello ! Can anybody suggest GOOD dish/OTA antenna installer/dealer in BOSTON ?

Thank you !

Andrey
(ex-systems engineer)
atmosfera is offline  
post #460 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 03:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Benji's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: East Bridgewater, Ma., U.S.A.
Posts: 3,166
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by atmosfera
Hello ! Can anybody suggest GOOD dish/OTA antenna installer/dealer in BOSTON ?

Thank you !

Radio Shack
Benji is offline  
post #461 of 10701 Old 10-26-2001, 07:02 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
rudolpht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Boxborough, MA, USA
Posts: 7,566
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Hess
At the risk of having lightning strike ....

Bob,

They are spinning up the lightning machine at the Museum of Science....

I went away to Florida for a few days and came back to Bizzaro world.

Hope we don't mess with success.

Tim

Tim
Selling Anthem PVA7.
STABILITY + Superior audio (SC09-TX) + Incredible picture (VPL-VW200) + good integration.
rudolpht is offline  
post #462 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 05:36 AM
Senior Member
 
Mike Emery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Nashua, NH USA
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob,

Re: broadcast AR of 4:3 material

Please please please.... Keep 4:3 as 4:3. Like has already been said, these in-between stetch modes are just pointless.

Anyone who is really concerned can change black fillers to grey in the menu of their receiver. My Dish 6000 does this, I believe the RCA does also.
Mike Emery is offline  
post #463 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 05:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
Soycrema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Framingham, MA USA
Posts: 551
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 34
My vote goes to 4:3 in 16:9 mode, like NBC does here in Boston.
By the way Bob, I sent you a private message about CBS, did you get it?
Thanks
Soycrema is offline  
post #464 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 06:00 AM
Newbie
 
JSteinberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Marlborough, MA, USA
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just tested my reception of Fox and received a signal of 25-47. Very eratic. Not consistent enough to maintain a picture.

They're not quite there yet.
JSteinberg is offline  
post #465 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 06:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
SteveV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Bob,

PLEASE no 14:9! I vote for OAR--if I want to stretch the image I can do it myself.

Thanks -- Steve
SteveV is offline  
post #466 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 06:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
SteveV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 634
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:


Originally posted by JSteinberg
I just tested my reception of Fox and received a signal of 25-47. Very eratic. Not consistent enough to maintain a picture.

They're not quite there yet.

Same thing here. I was hoping to watch Dark Angel in 720P(????) last night but my 6000 refused to lock in the signal. Like you, my signal was bouncing all over the place.

What would be really COOL is if FOX could give us an update regarding what the hell is going on. And yes, I'm still waiting for a reply to the emails I sent them nearly 3 weeks ago

-- Steve
SteveV is offline  
post #467 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 06:14 AM
Newbie
 
JSteinberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Marlborough, MA, USA
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob,

I vote for 4:3 in a 16:9 frame with gray bars or logos on the side. I am very concerned about burn-in on my Toshiba 56H80 projection TV, however, I can't stand watching the distorted images.

This is all about the best quality picture.
JSteinberg is offline  
post #468 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 06:57 AM
Member
 
MikeD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Hess
WBZ has long been a proponent of retaining the 4:3 aspect ratio for our upconverted programming. As you also know, we can only do it in a 16:9 frame.

Bob,

It would be nice to send 4:3 in a 4:3 frame but it looks like you can only send a 16:9 frame.

In this case I prefer 14:9 in the 19:9 frame. I have a 16:9 direct view TV. 4:3 just looks so ugly after 19:9. The 14:9 is a good compromise with little clipping on top/bottom. The black border looks nice on my Sony 34xbr2 but if people are concern about burn-in, maybe you should try gray border so people can judge what it look like.

Thanks for all the hdtv. :-)
MikeD is offline  
post #469 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 07:18 AM
Member
 
MikeD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Mike Emery

Anyone who is really concerned can change black fillers to grey in the menu of their receiver. My Dish 6000 does this, I believe the RCA does also.

My receiver can not change the black border. It can not change the view size when it is sent in a 16:9 frame.

I like the 14:9 frame because it is a good compromise. The 4:3 aspect ratio is retain and their is little clipping of the top/bottom.

Maybe wbz can try sending gray borders with with the 14:9.

MikeD
MikeD is offline  
post #470 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 07:25 AM
Member
 
eags's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Newton, MA
Posts: 136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have had my RPTV HDTV for about a month now and while I believe the "Burn in" issue is a bit overstated (If you properly calibrate your set and avoid 4:3 images 100% of the time, there should be no concern about burn in), I nonetheless prefer the 16:9 stretch mode that WHDH employs. I know its not perfect but I just can't get used to seeing black or gray side bars. 14:9 looks terrible.
eags is offline  
post #471 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 09:17 AM
Member
 
CoffeeBreath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Westford, MA, US
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by SteveV

Same thing here. I was hoping to watch Dark Angel in 720P(????) last night but my 6000 refused to lock in the signal. Like you, my signal was bouncing all over the place.

I'm watching WFXT right now in Westford, and it's pretty stable at 57-60% signal strength. IIRC, I was getting about 70-75% a few weeks ago.

Dish 6000, attic-mounted antenna (previous owners left it!), WBZ is at about 85-90% right now.

BTW, is there any way to ask the Dish 6000 what format the current signal is in? I don't have an HD display yet, just using the svideo out (and even that is terrific!)...
CoffeeBreath is offline  
post #472 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 03:26 PM
Senior Member
 
jeff43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Hemlock NY
Posts: 263
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob:

I was one of the few that wanted 14:9 during round one but later switched to agreeing on 4:3.

For side bars, can you place something similar to what CBS does during half time of college HD football games? I suppose huge CBS letters would be distracting to most but placing something, even a gray background, would help with the burn in issue.

It does seem to be kind of a waste to transmit black.
jeff43 is offline  
post #473 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 05:40 PM
Member
 
JOtteman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Framingham, MA. USA
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Hess
Hi Guys,

At the risk of having lightning strike me, I am going to again raise the subject of 4:3 vs 14:9 vs 16:9 images for our upconverted progamming.


Bob Hess
Director, Broadcast Operations/Engineering
WBZ-TV/WSBK-TV/WLWC-TV/WBZ-AM/WODS-FM

Bob! ! !
Please go back to 4:3. I always watch 4.1 when watching CBS even if it is not HD because the picture quality is much better than my satelite or antenna feed of analog 4. I don't worry about burn in on my Elite510 because I watch enough full screen to offset it. Please go back to 4:3 for all non-HD programing! The 14:9 is awful in my opion.

Thank you,
Jay
JOtteman is offline  
post #474 of 10701 Old 10-27-2001, 05:45 PM
Member
 
JOtteman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Framingham, MA. USA
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by SteveV


Same thing here. I was hoping to watch Dark Angel in 720P(????) last night but my 6000 refused to lock in the signal. Like you, my signal was bouncing all over the place.

-- Steve

Dark Angel was broadcast in 4:3 mode last night as was Pasadena after it. Fox must not be done with their upgrade or have changed their policy because usually these would be in 480P widescreen. I am getting a steady signal here in Framingham.

Jay
JOtteman is offline  
post #475 of 10701 Old 10-28-2001, 04:45 AM
Newbie
 
JSteinberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Marlborough, MA, USA
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Success! With a little movement of my indoor antenna, I was able to watch the World Series last night with a strong signal. Signal range with my new antenna position was 75-87. Strong enough with my Toshiba receiver to have an uninterrupted picture.
JSteinberg is offline  
post #476 of 10701 Old 10-28-2001, 05:45 AM
Member
 
Bob Cupka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: No. Andover, Ma.
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob,
I too much prefer broadcasts be done in their OAR. Please go back to 4:3.
Bob Cupka is offline  
post #477 of 10701 Old 10-28-2001, 07:29 AM
Member
 
ismeltitudeltit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Acton, MA, USA
Posts: 184
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Hess
Hi Guys,

At the risk of having lightning strike me, I am going to again raise the subject of 4:3 vs 14:9 vs 16:9 images for our upconverted progamming.

Have at it......

Bob Hess
Director, Broadcast Operations/Engineering
WBZ-TV/WSBK-TV/WLWC-TV/WBZ-AM/WODS-FM

Bob, I think the best way to address the burn in problem is to use gray bars. I prefer the 4:3 image. I can always use either my receiver or TV to size the image the way I want (although you do a better job of it) but I can't get back to the original.

thanks.
ismeltitudeltit is offline  
post #478 of 10701 Old 10-28-2001, 02:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RoyGBiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Pawtucket, RI
Posts: 1,508
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Bob:

Here in Pawtucket, I get Providence's CBS affiliate perfectly from the same antenna I have in my attic for the Boston digitals. Today I watched the Jets (and am now watching the Pats)on that station instead of WBZ. Until you go back to OAR, I will watch all the 4:3 stuff on Channel 12 in Providence.

SMK
RoyGBiv is offline  
post #479 of 10701 Old 10-28-2001, 03:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Richard_P_Harvey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Deep in the woods of Charlton, MA
Posts: 1,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
O.K. Bob no lightning but please dump this nasty format now. Why take a step backwards...? Please remember you were instrumental in getting WCVB to dump the aweful 14:9 format they started with. I have had my Mit's RPTV for near two years now and the black bars with the 4:3 in a 16:9 frame made me nervous at first but I can say that so far there is NO screen burn at all. I find that normal viewing provides enough balance of full screen, black bars, gray bars etc. so that screen burn is not a problem.

I said many times that WBZ should consider gray bars OR ever changing colored logo bars to fill the space. I have never received a response to these repeated suggestions.

OAR is the only way to go and is all I will watch .... period

Hopelessly addicted to HDTV and lost deep in the woods of Charlton, MA - Rich

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Richard_P_Harvey is offline  
post #480 of 10701 Old 10-28-2001, 03:53 PM
Member
 
MikeD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Posts: 108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm new to this. What is OAR? It is not in the FAQ.
MikeD is offline  
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception

Tags
Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off