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post #91 of 4128 Old 01-06-2005, 06:45 PM
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"we may be able to speed up the FCC creating the digital "white" area they're supposed to be doing"

unfortunately the new legislation has made things worse. The so call "digital white area" will not help at all. If your provider offers you your local channels in digital format(NOT HD) then you are not in the "white area" and you are no longer eligible for DNS. AND since the only 2 providers that offer HD dns also offer our locals in Digital format we can never qualify.

I'm quite lucky at the moment since before the new legislation I activated 3 of the 4 DNS channels and apparently am grandfathered with D* though I can never get the 4th. I also get locals, but watch only one show that is not on the HD networks.

Our only hope short of a change in legislation, is for the locals to get the towers up and for the providers to start carrying those signals, however aside from adelphia that's also problematic since it appears Dish is in serious bandwith trouble, VOOM has no interest in networks and though D* will probably carry the HD channels when they come up, there are going to be new hardware requirements to get any of these(My HDTivo is an important member of the family).
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post #92 of 4128 Old 01-07-2005, 04:08 PM
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Wow - I did not realize this about the new white area legislation. Are you saying that just because our locals are available over Satellite in a crappy digital format (overly compressed signal received from analog OTA antennas...) that we are NOT considered a digital white area??

I had thought that with no OTA digital broadcast from the local networks that we would certainly be a digital white area for the majors until the Mt Mansfield broadcasts began. This means I was counting on getting access to Distant HDs via DirecTV once the FCC got it's act together... I think you are saying that's not going to happen?
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post #93 of 4128 Old 01-07-2005, 08:10 PM
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as I understand it that is correct.

IF there was a provider that did not offer locals, but did off HD DNS then you could get their DNS but if your provider offers your locals in digital then you do not qualify. If you got to the DNS qualification page you will see that D* says that they can no longer off DNS to ANY market that they offer LIL to.

I'm just hoping my current grandfather condition does not change.
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post #94 of 4128 Old 01-08-2005, 08:23 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by gottahavit
"we may be able to speed up the FCC creating the digital "white" area they're supposed to be doing"

unfortunately the new legislation has made things worse. The so call "digital white area" will not help at all. If your provider offers you your local channels in digital format(NOT HD) then you are not in the "white area" and you are no longer eligible for DNS. AND since the only 2 providers that offer HD dns also offer our locals in Digital format we can never qualify. ..........

This is not true.

For one thing, currently no satellite providers offer any locals in digital that I'm aware of. "D" has stated they do intend to start offering some in the top markets - possibly as soon as this Spring.

You may be confusing the fact that satellite encodes and transmits all their signals in a "digital" bitstream from their satellite to your receiver but that is not the same as a signal that originates as digital, it's strictly the way they pass the signal to their customers.

Secondly, when locals do start providing a digital signal to satellite and satellite starts offering them to customers, then the case for distant digitals for the most part arguably goes away.

Although there's nothing that says an affiliate has to broadcast in HD - only digital, most affiliates will likely at least pass on their network feeds in HD because that's what the networks provide.

There are regulations built into the law that essentially limit how an affiliate or a satellite provider can "degrade" the signal. Besides competition from other stations will probably assure that the locals pass on what the network is providing in both content and picture quality.

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post #95 of 4128 Old 01-08-2005, 02:17 PM
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well that does not appear to be the way DirectTV is interpreting the legislation since they are saying NO ONE who gets LIL can get DNS. While it would be nice if the interpretation was in regards to the originating signal, but I do not believe that is true and it is definitely not what D* is telling it's customers.

As for the signal degredation that is just completely wrong(though I wish it weren't). Right now D* is rebroadcasting several Local HD stations and several independent national networks, ALL of these signals are being seriously downgraded by D* as well as the other providers. The bitrate for the DNS HD networks(these are locals for NY,LA) are at about 1/2 the original bitrate on D*.

Maybe some contracts include clauses like that,but obviously very few if any currently do.
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post #96 of 4128 Old 01-10-2005, 07:16 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by gottahavit
well that does not appear to be the way DirectTV is interpreting the legislation since they are saying NO ONE who gets LIL can get DNS. While it would be nice if the interpretation was in regards to the originating signal, but I do not believe that is true and it is definitely not what D* is telling it's customers.

I think one of the problems is the legislation is so confusing that both "D" & "E" are taking a conservative approach ("E" even more than "D") until some of the ambiguities are cleared up or the digital white area is clearly defined.

Quote:


Originally posted by gottahavit
As for the signal degradation that is just completely wrong(though I wish it weren't). Right now D* is rebroadcasting several Local HD stations and several independent national networks, ALL of these signals are being seriously downgraded by D* as well as the other providers. The bitrate for the DNS HD networks(these are locals for NY,LA) are at about 1/2 the original bitrate on D*.

Maybe some contracts include clauses like that,but obviously very few if any currently do.

Yea, I wasn't very clear on that. We're all well aware that both "D" & "E" can and do really mess up a signal. What I was trying to say is that I think there are rules built in that stations must maintain certain power levels for their digital signals.

Are you sure these "local HD stations" are being passed to "D" as HD signals ? Even though they may be being transmitted OTA as HD, they may only be giving "D" an analog signal.

In the long run, competition and advertising demands will force the major networks to improve and their contracts with affiliates and carriers will reflect this.

Right now though the FCC needs to immediately define the digital white area and issue some clarifications and guidelines for carriers.

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post #97 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Can someone explain to me kow the erp works. And why is there such a difference between stations. My concern is that i won't be able to capt the low powered ones(13,38).

Right now, i can capt the wcfe 38 (57.1, 57.2). Will i be ok with the WVNY at 10 kW?
I live 95 miles from Mt Mansfield and i have a 25 feet tower. No booster.

Taken fron the FCC site:
13 WVNY (ABC) 10 kW ERP
14 WPTZ (NBC) 650 kW ERP
32 WETK (PBS) 200 kW ERP
38 WCFE (PBS) 7,5 kW ERP
43 WFFF (FOX) 475 kW ERP
53 WCAX(CBS) 801 kW ERP

Thanks
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post #98 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 08:11 AM
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WVNY is one that worries me. I've heard that apparently they have only been confirmed at 4.5kw since Industry Canada hasn't approved the 10kw level for channel 13 (since there is an analog channel 13 in Trois-Rivieres which is less than 200 miles away). As a result, they have a directional antenna reducing the signal to the north and north-east (supposedly they will be sure to reach Montreal though). I don't think it was too smart to get their allocation changed from 16 to 13 just to save on power costs... they will lose viewers at the same time.

Plus, I'm a little worried about adjacent channel interference from the analog channel 12 in Montreal. 2 and 6 end up making 3 and 5 unwatchable for me. Hope it won't affect digital...
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post #99 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Where do you live FoxFan? I live in Greenfield Park.
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post #100 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 08:24 AM
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Longueuil, near the tunnel.
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post #101 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Aparently that the CBC and SRC are coming this spring. SRC will have 2 shows in HD!
Have you heard something ?
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post #102 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 08:41 AM
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I spoke to someone from SRC last week who informed me that they should be up during early-mid March with temporary channel 19 and channel 20 transmitters from the CBC building.
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post #103 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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you said that WVNY is going to be at 4.5kW. Is there any way we can find out what is the power of WCFE-DT (38) right now?
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post #104 of 4128 Old 01-18-2005, 02:23 PM
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No. I tried calling their engineer last week but he wasn't there. It's hard to find out. They had licenses for 7.5kw, 60kw, and 100kw. I'm trying to figure out which one they're using right now.
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post #105 of 4128 Old 01-21-2005, 10:14 AM
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Got a couple of emails from WNNE regarding the status of their digital conversion. Whatever happens, we can't say they haven't tried to keep us informed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt,
Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, it has been nuts.

We are still waiting on the ecode/upconversion equipment, as soon as we
have that we can start testing .

I am hopefull by the end of the month .

We will probably come up low power and increase gradually. when we get to
full power you should have a good signal, we are putting out more power
than VPT-DT.

Will let you know when we get a signal to the transmitter.

Roger

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt,
Forgot to address the NASCAR HD issue, as it stands now we are going
to take NBC HD whenever it is present.

That is why it is taking so long for the equipment, we wanted to be able to
switch between NBC and local programming cleanly.

we had expected to be able to do this with the equipment we had but, the
options were not in our model.

We had to regroup and attack the problem from a different direction.

We are also planning to pass Dolby 5.1 .

roger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anyone has heard anything about any other OTA digital stations that might become receivable in Vermont, please post whatever info you have here. As near as I can tell those of us that can't digital signals OTA have been really shafted by this new legislation and both Satellite companies.

"D" has all the distant nets in HD now but mostly only O&O areas can get them. "E" is talking about putting up a temporary feed of the national Fox HD for the Super bowl but it too will only be available to O&O areas - the same thing they did for the NBC HD olympic feed last Summer.

I emailed our "big 3" in Congress about all this and Jefford's office actually called me. They seemed quite interrested that Vermonters that had no access to digital OTA signals were NOT being allowed to get them via satellite, yet viewers in O&O areas, that usually have cable & OTA options for digital WERE being allowed to get the distant HD feeds.

Any idiot can see that this is contrary to what that part of the legislation was intended to do. I'd suggest that anyone who cares about getting HD in Vermont or NH make a lot of noise to Congress and FCC right now. It might work to pressure the FCC into defining the "digital white area" sooner rather than later.
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post #106 of 4128 Old 01-24-2005, 02:04 PM
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If anyone is thinking of "moving" one recommended city is Washington D.C, since you would be eligible for HD DNS and their local channels on spotbeam tp18 cover our area for some reason. With that you would get 3PBSs, a UPN affiliate, and a dedicated WB affiliate (instead of a shared one on WFFF). Just make sure you're in the south part of the D.C. area so that Baltimore won't claim you to be in their Grade B contour.

I'm not thinking of "moving" though because I'm afraid to lose my grandfathered status for ABC and Fox when I move back to my current address.
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post #107 of 4128 Old 01-29-2005, 09:12 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by foxfan
If anyone is thinking of "moving" one recommended city is Washington D.C, since you would be eligible for HD DNS and their local channels on spotbeam tp18 cover our area for some reason. With that you would get 3PBSs, a UPN affiliate, and a dedicated WB affiliate (instead of a shared one on WFFF). Just make sure you're in the south part of the D.C. area so that Baltimore won't claim you to be in their Grade B contour.

I'm not thinking of "moving" though because I'm afraid to lose my grandfathered status for ABC and Fox when I move back to my current address.

I actually moved from the DC DMA up to Vermont a little over a year ago. I actually tried this and it did not work. Without changing a single thing with my account, I set up the dish, aligned and got nothing at all.

I live in White River Junction. While the maps show that TP18 covers this area, I could never get a signal on it.

Of course, now I get a signal of 94 on TP18... so who knows what's up.

If anybody tries this and it works, I'd like to know.

Also, just make sure you don't get an address in Virginia as they will more than likely pass the Satellite Tax there. So either DC or southern maryland may work.
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post #108 of 4128 Old 02-01-2005, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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On the montreal side, CBC is up on channel 20(6-1). Test pattern only, but will begin broadcast feb. 21.

That's a beginning.....
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post #109 of 4128 Old 02-02-2005, 09:41 AM
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Yipiker; Is it on 100% of the time? I'll try and acquire tonight when I get home..allbeit with my radioshack attic antenna and being in burlington VT...
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post #110 of 4128 Old 02-02-2005, 01:26 PM
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I don't think you'll have much chance receiving it in Burlington for the time being. First, it's low-power. Second, it's being broadcast from a temporary location (on the roof of the network's building) and not on Mt. Royal like the other stations. Also, you might be getting co-channel interference from a VPT's channel 20 analog transmitter (I think it's in St. Johnsbury).
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post #111 of 4128 Old 02-08-2005, 01:23 PM
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don't mean to intrude here, i'm in poland spring maine. had some fairly good topos this past weekend. and was picking up a lot of the boston digitals. checked this afternoon and i guess its over, can't get a thing. turned the antenna towards vt. and i have a short green bar on 25-1 not strong enough to get a lock. anyone confirm? i can usually get analog 20. and 22 fairly well from here and sometimes 33 and 31. we are in the same boat here as well with fox passing hd to cable but no ota. alan
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post #112 of 4128 Old 02-09-2005, 06:25 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by alann555
don't mean to intrude here, i'm in poland spring maine. had some fairly good topos this past weekend. and was picking up a lot of the boston digitals. checked this afternoon and i guess its over, can't get a thing. turned the antenna towards vt. and i have a short green bar on 25-1 not strong enough to get a lock. anyone confirm? i can usually get analog 20. and 22 fairly well from here and sometimes 33 and 31. we are in the same boat here as well with fox passing hd to cable but no ota. alan

25 is WNNE-DT and they told me a few days ago that they hoped to begin testing withn next 2 weeks. Low power at first and gradually increase. It will be transmitted from Mt Ascutney - the same location as VTPBS.

Per their engineer (Roger Rosenthal), they will eventually be as strong or stronger than VTPBS-HD (at 24.5) which I get right now with a great signal, so if you can get that, you'll probably have no problem with WNNE-DT once it gets going.

They plan to upconvert to HD and also pass on NBC HD as it come through from the national network.

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post #113 of 4128 Old 02-09-2005, 06:46 AM
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Alan555,

I just emailed the WNNE engineer to see if they were doing any testing recently and will post anything I hear back.

I just tested for it on my Dish 811 but got nothing. I do get a 86% signal for 24-5 (VTPBS-HD) and since they're the same location, I should see something if they are sending. I'm in Bradford, Vt (05033) at about 800 feet with a decent view South & South East.

I've been emailing back and forth with WNNE for about 4 months and would be very interrested in hearing about any signal readings you happen to get from 25-1. How much do you get at 24-5 ? Does it lock ? If you turn your antenna to optimize that station, then you should be at best possible for 25-1 too.

Thanks,
Walt

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post #114 of 4128 Old 02-10-2005, 05:01 AM
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Alan555,

Per WNNE, I guess whatever signal you were getting at 25-1 was not them. It may have been CH 25 WLBZ - DT out of bangor me. I think the only other station on ch 25 is in syracuse NY .

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post #115 of 4128 Old 04-04-2005, 09:49 AM
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This is the most recent info I've received regarding WNNE-DT (25x). I got this almost 3 weeks ago, so I've been expecting to see some signal activity any day but nothing yet. I'll probably bug him again soon.

"Walt,
The only one vacationing on the beach would be my boss. He deserves
it though, he just got back from Iraq.
I am going up to plattsburgh this week to see if I can get the encoder
configured to send programming down to Ascutney.
We had some microwave issues last week that were very time consuming.
To make a short story long, I hope to have a signal to Ascutney this week
or early next week and start testing next week.

Sorry I didn't get back sooner, too many irons in the fire.

roger"

Does anyone have any updates on any other digital / HD possibilities in the Vermont / NH area?

How about has anyone been able to get the 4 HD nets from Direct TV in the Vermont DMA ? I know other areas HAVE been able to get "HD only" waivers from some affiliates and "D" has been talked into accepting these.

IF anybody's got any news, post it so we can keep this thread near the front.

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post #116 of 4128 Old 04-05-2005, 09:56 AM
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Shortly after my last post here I sent another email to WNNE:

"Hi Roger,
Sorry to bug you again. I expect you're probably pulling your hair out over this digital business.
Anyway, I know you were pretty confident you'd be testing by a couple weeks ago, so just thought I'd check in for the latest status.
You know NBC takes over the NASCAR Nextel Cup races in July ? We will have "lift off" before then - right ??:-)
Thanks,
Walt"

I got this back today:

"Walt,
I still have a few strands of hair left, We have had issues with getting
the HD feed down the microwave.
We are currently working with the manf. on this.
I will be going up to plattsburgh this week to help out .

I fully intend to be up by July. I want my NASCAR in HD and Surround
too!!!

Sorry this has taken so long.
will let you know when we start testing.

Roger"

So sounds like they're still trying but being hindered by some problems. I'll post as soon as something happens.

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post #117 of 4128 Old 04-05-2005, 02:09 PM
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Walt, do you know if WNNE HD will be made available on Adelphia cable (we don't get WNNE at all now)? Any other news of networks (other than CBS on WCAX) becoming available on Adelphia?

Thanks!
Marcus in Montpelier on Adelphia cable.
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post #118 of 4128 Old 04-07-2005, 06:27 PM
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Waltinvt;

I have not tried to get waivers from Directv for HD; I'm not sure it will work but I am willing to try if its the thing that will work the soonest..given the huge delay in the FCC defining the so-called digital white zone. Thanks.

PS off adelphia and glad.
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post #119 of 4128 Old 04-11-2005, 11:25 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by vermonter
Waltinvt;

I have not tried to get waivers from Directv for HD; I'm not sure it will work but I am willing to try if its the thing that will work the soonest..given the huge delay in the FCC defining the so-called digital white zone. Thanks.

PS off adelphia and glad.

What seems to be happening in some areas is that the affiliates are more inclined to give temporary "HD Only" waivers or "letters of no objection". I don't know about this area though.

If you're already a "D" customer, I'd call them and see if they'll do it. I'm an "E" customer and would have switched to "D" except they won't apply for waivers for "potential customers".

I'd have switched and taken my chances except that "E" currently gives me the national CBS-HD and Fox, NBC & ABC analog distants, which I don't want to take the chance on loosing until I'm sure I can get the HDs from "D". Once I'm reasonably sure, I'll make the switch.

It you try, let me / us know how you make out.

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post #120 of 4128 Old 04-11-2005, 11:32 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by marcus51
Walt, do you know if WNNE HD will be made available on Adelphia cable (we don't get WNNE at all now)? Any other news of networks (other than CBS on WCAX) becoming available on Adelphia?

Thanks!
Marcus in Montpelier on Adelphia cable.

Marcus,

I don't really know. Adelphia won't come into my area or I'd sign up. I'm stuck with Charter and I don't believe they'll ever do HD up here in Vermont. WCAX-DT may have an exclusive deal with Adelphia while they're not broadcasting OTA in digital. WNNE-DT will definitly be doing OTA.
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