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post #331 of 14419 Old 01-21-2004, 07:44 PM
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Two Possible reasons ... one legal one practical....

Legal 50% simulcast rule (per the FCC) soon to be 75%....

Practical: Some cable companies may be taking the digital SD feed in lieu of the analog to get a better image to their digital cable plants...

William
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post #332 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 01:24 AM
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William..
Not sure I buy the simulcast rule reasoning for a couple of reasons. One is that it not everybody is doing it. NONE of the Cincinnati network commercial stations maintain a duplicate sub and that includes WXIX-DT which is only on the AIR 50% of the time. The other: I've heard the argument that carrying an HD feed on digital while running an analog feed (of the same program) on analog doesn't constitute a simulcast. I'd argue that one. Back when AM was forced to DROP simulcasts with sister FM stations, a couple of enterprising owners came up with the bright idea of just tape-delaying the AM programming by five minutes on the FM. Can't remember if it was the commission or just some legal scholar, but that was determined to be a simulcast. I can't imagine the exact same programming running at the exact same time even though from different source material would constitute anything BUT a simulcast.

But I will buy the cable feed argument .

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post #333 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 04:30 AM
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Doc or William,
Could you explain the simulcast rule in a little more detail? Also, if it means that you can't transmit the same program at the same time on your analog and digital stations, why would such as rule be enforced in the context of the transition from analog to digital? Wouldn't people moving from analog to digital want to get the same programs at the same time except for the improved definition?

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post #334 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I've read through the pertinent sections concerning analog simulcast rule on previous occasions, but don't presently feel like digging through the reports and orders/etc(The rules "governing the DTV transisition) to find it(Can be forund here: http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/documents.html )

Anyhow, the analog simulcast rule we're talking about is specifically part of the DTV transisition. The rule says, 50% of the programming on a digital station has to be the SAME programming that runs on the analog channel up until 4/2004(I think it's april, may be a little later), at which time it goes up to 75%, and then 100% by 2005. I don't interpet it as the "Rez" used having anything to do with it. I suppose it is possible though to interpet Weather bugs/graphics/"Public service" announcements/etc. as part of the rule.

Non-Commerical stations were able to get a 6 month waiver to this rule last summer, and in the 2nd DTV review NPRM, IF I recall correctly, FCC indicated they would look closer at this issue, and whether the rule was even necessary during the transisition. Not in our area, but my understanding was A number of PBS stations were(and maybe still are) solely using the PBS DT2A HD feed on their digital stations. This was an "inexpensive" way to go about it, and solved a issue that happened at some stations, which were using Transmission sites for their DTV station which were quite remote from their analog/other facilities -- So, it was easier, and less expensive/etc.(required less equipment), and allowed them to get on air quicker just to take the PBS HD feed off the sat and retransmit it, rather than to build a new STL link to the new transmitter site/etc.

---------------

Anyhow, I have spoken to someone whow works at a station(not in our "specific" area) which is using a SD subchannel to feed Cableco's headends a 480i 4x3 SD version, instead of the analog. Some of the Closer headends get it via Fiber, and the others get it via OTA -- Which of course is an improvement over analog for more than just 1 reason. Their CBS HD, of course suffers due to compression artifacts because of the extra SD subchannel ... Whether or not the Dayton stations are doing this, I don't know. What I do know is, the programming on the HD+SD sub of WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT is ALLWAYS the same, I have seen WKEF-DT stick with Nat'l NBC feed on 51-1, with infomercials/etc. on 51-2(same as analog) on late nights ...

While I understand it can be benefical to the station(for various reasons), and to SD cable viewers as well ... all I know is, the extra subchannel, airing the SAME programming as on the HD sub is completely useless to me, as a OTA viewer -- The only thing they are good for from my point of view, is to cause compression artifacts during HD, and, I'd rather see stations changing ATSC formats to match the source material, as is the case on KET4, and I'd also rather see everyone getting 16x9 versions(even if letterboxed in a 4x3 frame) of everything that runs as HD programming ... The latter, probably being a big issue involved here ... If you notice, most programming we see as HD from the nets isn't 16x9 on the analog station, excepts are PBS, and shows such as "ER" ....

Jeff
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post #335 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 11:02 AM
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Jeff,
Thanks. I think my original ideas were backwards. This makes some sense to me, although the concept of the Government doing something that didn't make sense seemed totally possible. Based on Docs AM/FM example, I thought that the government was saying the the analog and digital stations could NOT broadscast the same material at the same time. You are saying just the opposite, and that by 2005 all programing on analogs stations must also appear on their digital stations at the same time.

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post #336 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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One thing I forgot to mention, having a SD sub on the digital that is a %100 percent simulcast of the analog, DOES insure to stations that the analog simulcast rule will be met, say, as in instances when there is a problem with the HD feed from the Net, and you might end up with "blank screen" on the HD sub .. Of course, depending upon what happens with the rule, we will also see what happens with WKRC-DT, the "it's all here" promo instead of the local ad inserts, and then there's the HD-one movies (which they COULD be airing in HD at some other time, worst case scenerio at 2AM on Sat. Nights -- same time it's aired in SD .... It's "recordable" at least ...)

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post #337 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 11:48 AM
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Clarke..

Sorry to confuse you with the AM/FM example. Yeah, it was backwards for us when the FCC was trying to split full time simulcasts. With DTV, the simulcast reasoning seems to be to get stations to air meaningful programming instead of test loops just to keep the transmitter hot.

While it's a totally different commission than it was back during the AM/FM simulcast rulings, I would imagine some of the same interpretations would apply. As Jeff points out, WKRC-DT doesn't bother with local commercial breaks. I would doubt they'd draw fire for that even when the 100% rule kicks in. I say this becasue the reverse wasn't true. During AM/FM simulcasts, some stations ran a different set of commercials on the AM and the FM. Since the programming (and not the spots) was the same, it was considered a 100% simulcast for the entire time period.

Again, I'm not certain how stringently they'll enforce this, but I think any station that's making the simulcast efforts WKRC-DT, WCPO-DT and WLWT-DT are would not be ticketed over such things as dropped local spot breaks and late switch backs (such as WKEF-DT). Matter of fact, I'd even doubt the HD One movies would draw fire since it's meaningful programming that promotes the DTV transition.

But, again, I'm not a commissioner. I've just dealt with their field agents a lot . And I'm frequently surprised as to what they're anal about and what they couldn't care less about.

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post #338 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Doc,

Yeah. Really, these days, I think for the most part, the stations do a fine job "policing" themselves on this sort of stuff.

Also, personally, I could do without the simulcast rule during the transisition. As long as the analogs are there, I can watch the analogs for the "primary" 480i SD service when necessary, and for the most part I personally would rather see "HD Tests Loop" or whatever HD material is available for air on the DT than a simulcast of analog programming(excepting when the Simulcast is HD, or, even any available 16x9 that's not in a "letterbox" of course) .... For the most part, It's not like it is a situation, presently, in which we can receive the DT, but not the analog ..... When this changes in any specific circumstance, then that's another story ...

Also, I'd expect the local ads to start appearing on WKRC-DT when it becomes important to them+their clients .... On HD-one movies, I just want them to keep up showing up in HD every month, don't really care when they do it == although, it would be nice to know when! They did it for over 12 months straight, then, when they missed one in spring 2003, I believe they missed something like 5-6 more after that ..

I am wondering when we'll see the next word from FCC on the 2nd DTV review. It's been a year now since the NPRM went out, and I believe the last review process took about a year or so. Just guessing, but I'm thinking the "must carry" decision will come first, and the MO&O for the review not too long afterwards ....

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post #339 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 04:28 PM
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Without any official waiving of a rule , stations are held accountable for the rule as written.. so just becaouse its under review, doesn't let you off the hook...


An Example:
We have a waiver for EAS from the FCC for the DTV stations, exempting us from certain sections of the EAS rules providing that we have a way of transmitting a National EAS alert...which we do.


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post #340 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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William,

Certianly. Here's a couple of rules concerning DTV stations of which I find the implementation at times, well, lets just say ... Interesting ...

Digital Captioning/July 2002 "rule" ... manufacturers and broadcasters seem to be involved, seemingly the former perhaps more than the latter in many circumstances -- and so far, digital captioning(EIA-708) doesn't seem to be implemented very well in many instances ....

DTV stations of top 4 network affiliates in Markets #1-30 are currently required by FCC to be on the air anytime the analog station is on the air ... Cincinnati Market was #30 when this rule went into affect, and Cincinnati stations are Still on the FCC's "stations in market #1-30 "list" ... Just because the info isn't there in the places I've looked, doesn't mean there isn't a waiver, I've looked and I haven't seen any "waivers" for any of the stations listed there .....

-------------------------------

Not here, but I've also heard of instances of stations "cranking down" the RF to save on utility bills, without the necessary changes to their operating permits ... As you know stations are required to operate under the parameters in their operating permit, and in special circumstances when technical problems/etc. are an issue, are required to notify FCC if for some reason, they can't operate under those parameters ....

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post #341 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 09:34 PM
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DTV Captioning is being implemented pretty quickly... Some encoder manufacturers are a late with software to support both 608 and 708 captions at the same time especially in SD material.. We're trying to get permission from Frankfort to buy new satellite receivers for the HD Feed as the HD caption standard hadn't been established at the time we bought them in 1999..

As far as power levels, Right now there are no rules regarding DTV power limits ( up or down) but in interference cases The FCC has allowed stations to lower power.. Most stations that I know of that are operating at low power are on STAs..and filed 302s when they signed on.

Please note that with the exception of the captioning issues (which is waiting on a software fix and the new equipment) as far as I know we are in compliance with the rules you mention.

As well as,

At full licensed power, with active PSIP, and GPS locked for frequency stability..
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post #342 of 14419 Old 01-22-2004, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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As I said in an earlier post, from what I can tell I think the local stations(that of course includes KET too) for the most part are doing a fine job "policing themselves" to be compliant with FCC rules. Furthermore, I think the local DTV stations are doing a fine job meeting FCC requirements, I certianly have no complaints, not, of course, that I would necessarily have a complaint even if stations weren't in compliance with some of the FCC rules ...

I merely said that I find some, specific -- let's say, "circumstances" which I have seen concerning local DTV stations(in general) + FCC rules "interesting".

For instance, of any of the DTV stations I have received, only WLWT-DT sends EIA-708 captioning in a manner that one of my DTV receiver's(which only supports EIA-708, and perhaps in a bit "different way" than many other receiver models) can properly display captioning. No Other SD, or HD DTV sources. Only WLWT-DT - So far. I'll be using this receiver for a long, long time, we'll see how long it takes(if ever) until I get CC with this receiver from all the stations when "available". My other receiver sees EIA-608 captions from DTV stations just fine(Being a "early" receiver, It doesn't support EIA-708 captions at all), and just about all the stations in the area seem to send 608 captions properly via their DTV stations.

Anyhow, mostly, What I meant to try to illustrate by my previous post concerned instances, in which say, there is a specific circumstance when a station might not be, exactly, say, quite 100% "off the hook" given any very "specific" non-compliance issue if hypothetical station doesn't have a waiver or "agreement" on the issue with FCC/etc. Of course, from what I understand, depending upon circumstances, from my understanding, FCC is often very understanding in these circumstances, and especially so when various "uncontrollable circumstances" may actually be preventing the station from being, completely in compliance with every little "detail" --- As it should be. .............. In other words, What Doc said ......

Some details from the rules In order to hopefully help further clarify most of the comments made in my immediately preceding post:

Follows is an excerpt from FCC report and order concerning adoption of EIA-708 Captioning standard for DTV - FCC # 00-259 - (Full document available here: Http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineeri...0/fcc00259.txt ) ..adopted, July 21, 2000. Under the "compliance dates" section:

"As provided for in the Commission's rules establishing requirements for the closed captioning of video programming adopted in a 1997 Order, programming prepared or formatted for display on digital television receivers before the date that digital television decoders are required to be included in digital television devices is considered "pre-rule" programming. As stated above, this order establishes that date as July 1, 2002. Therefore, programming prepared or formatted for display on digital television after that date will be considered new programming. The existing rules require an increasing amount of captioned new programming over an eight-year transition period with 100% of all new nonexempt programming required to be captioned by January 1, 2006."

:end quote

Here's some info from an outside source on this issue :

http://www.robson.org/gary/captionin...-july2000.html

-------------------------------------------

Concerning my second point in above post. An excerpt From Paragraph 11 of "MM Docket No. 00-39 MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER ON RECONSIDERATION - This order was Adopted by FCC : November 8, 2001" (entire document availalbe here: ( http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Medi...1/fcc01330.txt )

" ....Stations that were subject to the earlier construction deadlines (top four network affiliates in the top thirty markets) will remain subject to the previous rule - i.e., they must operate their DTV station at any time that the analog station is operating. This distinction is consistent with our prior treatment of these stations. In establishing earlier build-out deadlines for these stations in the Fifth Report and Order, we noted that "the most viewed stations in the largest television markets can be expected to lead the transition to DTV" and that these stations are "likely to have substantial revenues that may be used to fund the conversion."

:end quote

----------------------------------------------

Concerning DTV STA's/power levels/etc (I consider a STA granted by FCC as a "operating permit") and current power requirements for DTV stations, This is also from the document referenced immediately above : ( http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Mass_Medi...1/fcc01330.txt ) -

It would take too much room here to quote everything I'd like on these issues form this document, so, for those interested I'll refer you to section B+C of document. Also, I believe FCC is planning on addressing "power requirements/replication issues and the "Deadlines" involved more thoroughly in the currently ongoing, 2nd DTV review.

But, here's A short excerpt from "Section III, DTV STA's", Paragraph 34 which pertains to those stations with 5/1/02+5/1/03 buildout deadlines(stations, such as the ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox Affiliates in Cincinnati(Market #30 at the time) were subject to an earlier Buildout deadline ) :

Licensees must construct at least the minimum initial facilities required to serve their community of license by May 1, 2002 (commercial) or May 1, 2003 (noncommercial).

:end quote

----------------------------------

Also, I won't mention the specifics involved, but I can tell you, on one occasion, I personally have some experience with the last comment I made in my last post. Lets just say, Chief Engineer of "A DTV Station" had told me that against his advisement, he was told by his superiors to reduce power(to 25% of their STA) to save on Utility bills, and for no other reason. Luckily, it didn't last long -- Only a month or so before they returned to the power levels as specified in the STA which they were operating with. Still, This was done without filing for a "new" STA for the new power level, and without contacting/notifying FCC of the reduced power operation. This is not "OK", or in compliance with FCC rules. I have also heard similar stories from others "in the know" in specific cirucmstances, but lets hope this sort of thing is an exception, and exceptions which only occured in the past .....

Jeff
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post #343 of 14419 Old 01-23-2004, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
As far as power levels, Right now there are no rules regarding DTV power limits ( up or down) but in interference cases The FCC has allowed stations to lower power.. Most stations that I know of that are operating at low power are on STAs..and filed 302s when they signed on.

The power level specified in a station's Construction permit(CP) IS the "maximum power level" that station is allowed to operate at. Of course, a station can apply for a modification to that CP, or, apply for a modification to existing facilties/etc, to operate with more, or less power, lower/higher antenna height/different antenna pattern/etc. When a station applies for such a change, among other things, they must demonstrate that the proposed new facilities won't "interfere" with another station's service areas/etc. There is however, a set "Maximum power limit" a station can operate at in any circumstance -- For "DTV Power" and UHF, it is 1000KW ERP. I don't recall the lo/HI VHF Maximum power level for DTV.

As I said before, stations are required to operate their facilities within the parameters specified in their operating permit. These parameters not only include power, but also antenna height, antenna pattern/etc. This operating permit could involve the parameters specified in the station's Construction Permit, License(which "covers" the construction permit, as is the case presently with WCVN-DT), OR, this operating permit could be a STA, or, in circumstances involving temporary technical issues, it could even involve an "unpublished" agreement with FCC. Where DTV STA operation and the current situation is concerned(It's a bit different for DTV STA's presently, than what a STA means for other services, such as analog TV, AM/FM broadcast service), the specifics are covered in the Nov. 8, 2001 FCC document I referenced in my last post. The only requirement that is in effect presently(given stations with 5/1/02 and 5/1/03 buildout deadlines, anyway) is that the station operate facilities which will "cover" their community of license. For now, stations can operate with such "minimum facilities" under STA and still achieve "service area protection" for the DTV station, as if the actual service area of the DTV station replicated the analog counterpart.


Also, along the lines of what you pointed out on this issue, when "interference" issues become a problem among stations/etc, stations will then work with each other(hopefully anyway) and FCC to solve the problem, and operate with facilities which will hopefully minimize such interference issues, while still "protecting" each involved station's service areas. "Full service" and class A stations have "interference protection" for their service areas, as do DTV stations currently running STA's -- Although, at some point, the latter will likely change, and I suspect it will be the same "use it or lose it" "policy" as is the case with NTSC TV service.

Jeff
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post #344 of 14419 Old 01-23-2004, 02:34 PM
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On the issues of captioning for DTV, Most equipment manufacturers (and others) assumed that when DTV caption rules were adopted the receivers would be made compatible with both 608 and 708 captions. Since 608 is the existing analog standard it would have made since not to re-invent the wheel for SD programming. It came as a surprise to everyone that DTV receivers were allowed to be 708 only. This need for transcoding captions resulted in development time for hardware and software to handle the situation. Some are moving faster than others..

Plus there is now the caption switching issue as 708 captions are not embedded with the video like NTSC. The captions have to be added to the MPEG stream just like the audio through a separate input...

Captions are a sore spot for me as my wife is a teacher/interpreter for hearing impaired children..I hope to have the software upgrades (that work this time)soon. I have had many electronic conversations concerning DTV captions with Gerry Field at WGBH who is considered an expert on captioning.



BTW The coverage area of WCVN-DT exceeds the predicted coverage area of WCVN. And yes we have licenses for all 16 stations as built and on the air..
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post #345 of 14419 Old 01-23-2004, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
It came as a surprise to everyone that DTV receivers were allowed to be 708 only......

..... Plus there is now the caption switching issue as 708 captions are not embedded with the video like NTSC. The captions have to be added to the MPEG stream just like the audio through a separate input...

Which I think is an unfortunate situation, presently. Really doesn't make sense to me, for DTV receivers to be 708 only, especially at this time.

With the particular receiver I'm using that's 708 only(+ the particular display device used), the "embedded" analog captions will pass through to the display device which can then handle the captions properly given, lets say, "properly formatted" SD sources --- But ONLY IF NTSC 480i composite video is being output by the receiver(S-video works too). Interestingly, analog captions also work in this manner via WKRC-DT, even when HD is being broadcast. It doesn't work in any circumstance, no matter if source is SD/HD/etc, If I'm sending 1080i/720p/480p from the receiver via Component/RGB video, and of course, wouldn't work at all(even with 480i output from receiver) if you were using a display device that didn't support implementation of 608 captioning ... This receiver(Zenith HDV420) won't send 480i over Component/RGB, so Don't know if that would work ...

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post #346 of 14419 Old 01-28-2004, 10:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Just around 12am, I'm dozing off while watching Dave on WKRC-DT, and I notice ....

WKRC-DT Off air ....

My memory might be failing me, but, in over 2 years, I don't recall seeing this happen before .... If only enhanced propagation(tropo) was in the air ... Oh well, back to reading eyelids ...


Update: totally unrelated but ... Hmmm ... This is interesting ... Nice page even with nice antenna pics too! I've never seen it before :

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/receiving_hdtv.aspx

Again, my memory may be fuzzy, but I'm Not so sure I've seen this either(note - url shown as "Having trouble receiving WKRC-DT? on this page which I believe should link to URL above page is incorrect/broken on this page) :

http://www.wkrc.com/hdtv/default.aspx

Anyhow, I like it!

Jeff
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post #347 of 14419 Old 01-31-2004, 08:27 PM
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Just watching back tapes and noticed WKRC-DT hitting local commercial breaks. Did they do this all week? Also noticed the WKRC-DT ID bug for the first time in a LONG time. Did they get an integrated switcher, or did an advertiser get an HDTV ? Maybe the off-air time Jeff reported was for some sort of install. With Webhopper, they CAN'T be off for long.

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post #348 of 14419 Old 01-31-2004, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I also noticed tonight WKRC-DT dropped the HD feed early .. Sometime between 10:30-11pm - WHIO-DT had CBS HD until 11pm ...

Interesting concerning the local breaks ... I hadn't noticed that ... I was checking the It's all here promo (I think it was Thursday night) after they had went down to see if I noticed any change in compression artifacts ... I didn't ... I have also seen the ID at TOH several times in last week or so, and come to think of it, it has been quite a while since I've noticed it as well ...

They were evidently off air for quite a while that night, as I'd heard a report that they were down(or at low power - report was from a distant viewer) early the next morning as well .... So, just a WAG, but I'm guessing they were down for some sort of "maintainence" or equipment swap/etc. that took a while ..

Also, the afternoon before they went off air, I noticed they were in "blank screen mode" for a bit ...

Another thing I noticed that happened the afternoon they were in "blank screen mode" for a few mintues was that the signal quality readings I get from them suddenly went up about 5-10% or so here, back to the readings I used to get from them "way back when":

From Nov. 2001 until about ~9 months ago, on the DTC-100, for instance, I was gettting "88" with antenna aimed towards their tower(all the time no fluctuation), and about "50" and solid reception with the antenna I have aimed towards Dayton(approx. 155 degrees off target from Cincy towers - You can just imagine what Multipath does to the Cincy analogs).

Then, between 9 months ago or so and wednesday afternoon, the "88" had changed to "82"(again, all the time, no fluctation - no matter how much Ice was on antenna/etc) with Cincy antenna, And "40" or so off the Dayton antenna ... Now, ever since then it's back to exactly "88" and "50" again ... Of course, "82" or "88" could mean "82" or "88" or "1,000" with this thing ... So, Hard to say, but from what I can tell(For instance, since I've allways been able to receive them pretty much no matter what the antenna heading), I don't think the change had anything to do with the "RF power/signal" side of things, and from what I could tell I don't think it had anything to do with adjacent channel WRGT-DT 30(12 Miles) Dayton either. Very basically+not exactly technically "correct", but I think it generally just means the datastream+The signal just looks a tad bit "cleaner" to the receiver Now(and prior to 9 months ago or so) for "some reason" ....

Jeff
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post #349 of 14419 Old 02-02-2004, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Doc,

Certianly looked like WKRC-DT was hard switching between CBS HD feed+local commercials during yesterday's Superbowl coverage ..

It might have just been me since it's been a while since I had a chance like this to compare between the two, but for the most part, I thought it did look better than usual(compression artifact wise) last night than was the case on WHIO-DT. Not as good as it should be still, of course ..

Jeff
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post #350 of 14419 Old 02-02-2004, 01:33 PM
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I wonder why WKRC-DT didn't have the audio in 5.1? I thought the picture was good, but you could see that it was compressed especially on the fast motion shots. Some of the CBS cameras where SD only so this may have been the cause of some artifacting. Overall, it looked good.

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post #351 of 14419 Old 02-02-2004, 03:52 PM
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I thought that WKRC-DT also looked better than WHIO-DT. However, the LOCAL 12 bug on SD is very stupid. Why do they need to change that? The old 12WKRC was big enough! Channel 9's 9 I would say would be the best, but none would be better. Also, Independence Day looked OK on WXIX-HD. I hope that they will switch to HD next fall. If you guys know, will FOX shut down the Widescreen distribution system when the new HD one goes online, or will the two coexist?

Alex
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post #352 of 14419 Old 02-02-2004, 04:05 PM
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Dogg..
Good question. I'd speculate that it all depends on how the rollout goes for the HD gear. Might need to be some overlap. OTOH, the few Fox affiliates who DO Widescreen strike me as the ones more likely to be ready when the HD switch is made, especially if Fox is footing the bill for the net-to-station gear. The rest appear to be reluctant to switch at ANY cost.

Doc

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post #353 of 14419 Old 02-03-2004, 01:09 PM
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Thank you Doc for the reply. I didn't realize that Fox network would be paying for the equipment needed. Otherwise I would expect many Fox stations to be very upset. Seeing that WXIX does have HD capabilities, if they got the network feed, I would suspect that the signal could be run over fiber and broadcast like the other HD networks. I look foward to WXIX-HD having HD, Fox is really coming into their own, I like them better now than NBC, which I used enjoy their programing until recent. WLWT is one station that doesn't get me as a viewer other for Leno.

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post #354 of 14419 Old 02-03-2004, 01:25 PM
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Dogg..
I imagine the cable companies will add WXIX-DT once they start passing some HD programming. That seems to be a major issue in moving to HD. I also suspect it's the reason Fox is adding its ED signals to DirecTV in O&O markets. With no must-carry law that covers DTs (while a sister analog is still on the air), Fox stations are being left off of cable digital tiers and that concerns them.

What interests me is the mixed signals we're getting from NBC. All this talk about multicasting.. then, suddenly, they commit to the not-exactly-inexpensive venture of covering the Daytona 500 in HD. Wonder if they have any idea how much more viewership arena football would be if it were in HD. Ok, probably not much, but ANY additional eyes would be good for the sport. Go Swarm. Oh, that's right. They folded .

Doc

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post #355 of 14419 Old 02-04-2004, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
will FOX shut down the Widescreen distribution system when the new HD one goes online, or will the two coexist?

Just WAG and speculation -- But, I'm thinking what might happen is anything Fox doesn't do in HD will be upconverted at the network level and sent out over the 720p Feed, and that we'll still see some of the "Fox High resoulition Digital widescreen" stuff(or whatever they call it), which is now sent to fox affiliates as 16x9 NTSC video(480i "anamorphic" in a 4x3 frame).

I could be wrong, but it wouldn't make much sense to me to use both distribution systems when it should be unnecessary ... PBS, for example upconverts Their SD Widescreen stuff to 1080i at the network+sends it with the same, 1080i Feed to its affiliates ...

At least I hope that's what happens, so if they aren't doing a particular program in HD we'll still get it in "Fox Widescreen" ... -- For example --- I'd rather see 16x9 "Fox Widescreen" than 4x3 SD for say, any given Nascar race ...

I do wonder what WXIX-DT will send us and what sort of changes we might see from them, since it seems they'll have to do a little bit of "work" anyway ... 720p, or upconverted to 1080i ... I can't find it now, but I had heard that Raycomm is, or at least was very committed to 1080i ...


.

Jeff
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post #356 of 14419 Old 02-04-2004, 11:49 AM
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Informative post on Fox's distribution plans which could effectively remove or at least diminish the chances for Weirdscreen: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...90#post3323190

Doc

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Yes, that's a great article, very informative. As is the thread. Seems like their plan has come together quite quickly. I'm looking forward to hearing more about it, hopefully when the time comes from the various enginners at Fox affiliates that post on AVS.

Unless I read it wrong(where else would the splicer go), sounds like Thomson is going to be installing the splicing system at at least some of the affiliates, ... I wonder if WXIX or WRGT is on "the list" ....(It does say on Sinclair's website that WRGT-DT is "HD ready" - not that I'm expecting any "miracles")

Talking about it doesn't usually seem to work out too well -- Nevertheless --- Maybe I haven't been watching at the right times, but lately I haven't seen the weirdscreen problem from 'xix to much .... Last Sat. Night's "Mad TV"(at least at beginning, didn't check back) was the only time I've seen weirdscreen lately ....

Jeff
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post #358 of 14419 Old 02-04-2004, 02:35 PM
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Sunday's weekend Fox sports shows - were all weirdscreen and, this time, the phone call didn't fix it. But that's the only one I've seen in a while.

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post #359 of 14419 Old 02-05-2004, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Before I try to contact them If this issue continues to be a problem --- I'm wondering if anyone else is noticing the following issues with WCET-DT(OTA), which I've been experiencing on RCA DTC-100 and Zenith HDV420 receivers - I had seen this happen every now and then in the past, but since they've went to a nightly HD schedule, it's happening more and more often :

Unless it's something with both of my receivers --- I've noticed WCET-DT seems to be having a hard time going into HD mode about 1/2 the time since they've started their nightly 7-11pm HD schedule ...When it isn't working right(like tonight), They're dropping the programming on the 48-4+48-5 and I'm Not getting a lock on 48-4+5 but their still there as "placeholders", whearas 48-1 (34-1 non remapped on DTC-100) isn't showing up at all, as it should be when they are in HD mode ...

So whearas normally, when they are in HD mode I get:

48-1 - PBS HD
48-2 - WCET 48 simulcast
48-3 - PBS Kids

When it "messes up" I'm getting the following -- Just like when they are in "SD mode", but nothing on 48-4+5 :

48-2 - WCET simulcast
48-3 - PBS Kids
48-4 - Blank - no lock or DD audio indictor
48-5 - Blank - No Lock or DD audio indicator

-----------------

Also, Over last weekend too(It's fixed now), Audio was "mixed around", on some of the subchannels with audio from PBS HD channel coming up on 48-2/etc (I could hit "audio" button on the Zenith Box and switch to the right stream though - I didn't actually check it on the DTC-100)

Jeff
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post #360 of 14419 Old 02-05-2004, 08:10 PM
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Same behavior on WCET-DT with a Samsung SIR-T160.

Greg

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