Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 27 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #781 of 14363 Old 07-08-2004, 08:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jim tressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
well.. finally got my hd directv reciever.. hughes model.. so far so good.. just no high def tv yet.. lol (long story) - anyway I got it all up and running and was able to get all the cincinnati locals with rabbit ears (not very good signal strength - but good enough to see a picture most of the time) - for some reason the directv installer brought me an antenna (winegard sensar? - http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm) .. it was free - so for shi*s and giggles I may hook it up to see what happens.. thanks to all of you for your help - I will report back when I get things set

jim
jim tressler is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #782 of 14363 Old 07-09-2004, 04:06 AM
Jon
Member
 
Jon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Xenia, OH
Posts: 116
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I live in Xenia and I've recently noticed a drop in signal quality from channel 12.

Anyone else seeing this? If so what happened? I checked my signal from channel 5 and it is rock solid which was the case with channel 12.

Thanks,
John
Jon is offline  
post #783 of 14363 Old 07-09-2004, 04:47 AM
Member
 
Dimitriz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
JFYI, I hooked up my new Sanyo TV to the TWC line and was able to pick up about 10 local HD channels 5,9 and 12, no FOX , and numerous PBS, etc....
My TV is WS and has a built in HD tuner, but none of the channels filled the whole screen. 5 and 12 were in 1080i and 9 was in 720p, the rest looked like 4:3 in 480p if I remember correctly.
I might try unhooking the TWC HD box from my TV downstairs to test it on this new TV to see if it will make any difference.
Dimitriz is offline  
post #784 of 14363 Old 07-09-2004, 05:22 AM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 222
John..

When I looked, last night, WKRC-DT was still full scale, here. Jeff could better tell you, but I'd guess - at your distance - it could be a weather issue. Put a front in the right place, and a distant station on 31 could knock WKRC-DT down for you.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #785 of 14363 Old 07-09-2004, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Could be I suppose but I Haven't seen a lot of "unusual" tropo recently, although late Monday night there was a decent opening(mostly from SW) and I had a couple of the Nashville, TN DT's in here and managed to pull in WAFF 48(analog) Huntsville, AL after WCET went down for the night. I did notice WANE 15 analog in FT Wayne was also booming in here for a while that night -- I aimed the antenna that way and checked 31 (WANE-DT is on 31) but all I got was a solid signal from WKRC-DT off the side/back side of the antenna. I'd think WANE-DT/WJW-DT Cleveland would probably be the 2 most likely culprits for Co-channel interference to WKRC-DT -- Although I wouldn't think it would be anything "continuous" from Xenia.

We've had some pretty wild E-skip openings the last few days though -- Effecting lo-VHF+FM, and for a few minutes in some locations on late tuesday afternoon, even up into High-VHF TV band. Today, Was listening to KAFX 95.5, Diboll, TX(KFOX) just before 11am here.

Here's a couple recent DX screenshots I've taken the past few days(Sorry, I didn't think to get pics of the Nashville Digitals as I've seen them before) .. At upper left -- During Tuesday's E-skip opening to the NE -- WFSB 3, Hartford, CT(sorry, too much overscan on that 1980's model TV w mechanical tuner), Lower Left is a poor pic of WNBC 4, NYC making it through WCMH 4 Columbus(It was fun watching/listening to the NY local news on tue) ... Upper R - WSAV 3, Savannah, GA during a E-skip opening on Sunday ... At right, WEHT 25 Evansville, IN makes it through WBQC 25 Cincinnati via tropo on Monday night :
LL

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #786 of 14363 Old 07-10-2004, 12:37 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 222
FWIW, I called WLWT at around 3PM and the Busch race is now in 16:9. Dayton is still 4:3. Someone else can call WKEF .

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #787 of 14363 Old 07-11-2004, 08:43 AM
Member
 
zekyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 107
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just wanted to let you all know my site is down for a bit. Having some server technical difficulties.
zekyl is offline  
post #788 of 14363 Old 07-11-2004, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I missed it yesterday and only have time to take a peek today, but I think NBC 16x9 SD Nascar on WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT today looks a tad better than Nascar via Fox WS.

On another note - Did WKRC-DT run HD-one "Raiders of Lost Ark" in HD yesterday afternoon? I didn't get to check it out, but noticed it wasn't there Fri or sat night at 8pm, and that it (SD on 12 analog anyway) was scheduled for airing yesterday afteroon.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #789 of 14363 Old 07-11-2004, 04:15 PM
Super Moderator
 
DrDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 12,544
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked: 222
Quote:
Originally posted by Nitewatchman
... I think NBC 16x9 SD Nascar on WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT today looks a tad better than Nascar via Fox WS.

Think that might have something to do with NBC using the usual HD distribution versus Fox's anamorphic system? Given the fact that most of the cameras would need to be wireless (and, therefore, SD) for most NASCAR tracks, I think they did the right thing in passing widescreen versus 4:3. A step in the right direction.

Plus, I didn't have to call anybody, today .

Doc

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
DrDon is online now  
post #790 of 14363 Old 07-11-2004, 07:31 PM
Senior Member
 
1450kHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Beavercreek, OH (heh heh, you said Beaver)
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
On another note - Did WKRC-DT run HD-one "Raiders of Lost Ark" in HD yesterday afternoon? I didn't get to check it out, but noticed it wasn't there Fri or sat night at 8pm, and that it (SD on 12 analog anyway) was scheduled for airing yesterday afteroon.

Nope. I checked and it was SD. Ironically enough, WBDT in Dayton was running the same movie at the same time (but it was at a different portion of the movie when I compared the two).
1450kHz is offline  
post #791 of 14363 Old 07-11-2004, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally posted by DrDon
Think that might have something to do with NBC using the usual HD distribution versus Fox's anamorphic system? Given the fact that most of the cameras would need to be wireless (and, therefore, SD) for most NASCAR tracks, I think they did the right thing in passing widescreen versus 4:3. A step in the right direction.

WAG -- I'd think so ... Although I have to say I'm still a little confused as to why it looked noticably better, though -- And also why the scripted stuff looks Sooo much better(IMO) in Fox WS than the live sports do .... I would have thought NBC SD 16x9/Fox WS for NASCAR would have pretty much looked the same PQ wise -- Especially since we have WXIX-DT upconverting to 1080i .... I'm thinking perhaps the upconversion to 1080i at the Network Level had something to do with it -- If Fox ever sends SD 16x9 upconverted to 720p via their new HD system(when they get it done and all the splicers installed) -- It might be interesting to see what THAT looks like

I'd love it if whenever possible (even with say, local news or other local programming - With the analog getting a 4x3 "center cut" from the 16x9) they would do 16x9 --- Sent in a 16x9 ATSC format of course -- I know its a necessary evil for many reasons(mainly that it's unfortunetly still a 4x3 NTSC SD "world" I suppose) currently, but I have to sigh when I see 16x9 programming(Commercials, PBS 16x9 programs on 4x3 SD services, ER/etc) letterboxed in pretty much the lowest rez available(don't have my calucaltor out, but probably something like about 350~400 lines Horizontal resolution)inside a 4x3 ATSC format .... Or even worse, letterboxed AND pillarboxed within a 16x9 ATSC format ...

Then again, there is often probably that little "anamorphic" issue too .. er, 16x9 NTSC vs 4x3 NTSC video for those who perfer different "semantics" .. along with the issues involved concerning different pixel ratios(H:V)) ... For instance I've seen quite a few 16x9 promos, and even a educational series on Ohio(authors I think) that was produced as 16x9, but was aired as 4x3 "weirdscreen" by ThinkTV program services --- Even from the ANALOG station where the educational program mentioned is concerned(I've seen it a couple of times on WPTD 16 analog at 2:30~3pm on weekday afternoons)--Yes, the ThinkTV logo is supposed to contain a circle, not a shape like a Egg sitting on its end -- I guess it is pretty cool though on a 16x9 display when that happens to be able to "stretch" even the ANALOG out, and get proper 16x9 video from a NTSC station, rather than a couple hundred lines less resolution with letterboxing ... Of course, if you've got "Plain old TV(4x3)" you're just stuck with incorrect AR and "tall skinny people" when that happens ... ThinkTV+Fox "weirdscreen" from WXIX isn't the only place I've seen it either ... Some months ago, I had seen a late night show (sort of funky, local Northern Miami Valley talent show special) run on WDTN on WHIO that had been SHOT in 16x9, but was airing in 4x3 ....

Oh, well, I guess we've been stuck in a 4x3 world so long it will be a while(if ever) before everyone "really" figures out the "AR issues" when something other than square pixels and HD, or "plain ol' 4x3 SD video" is involved .... I hope they do figure it out though ... It's bad enough when they sometimes "squeeze in" graphics on bottom of screen without properly adjusting the AR for the video being shown above it (I guess there are some good signs though .. for instance, WKEF/WRGT news USED to have that issue with their ticker/etc, but they fixed it quite some time ago) ... I'd hate to be seeing weirdscreen every now and then for the next 20 years or so ....

Ok, sorry for blabbering -- enough with my AR rantings -- don't know HOW I got off on that tangent

---------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally posted by 1450khz

Nope. I checked and it was SD. Ironically enough, WBDT in Dayton was running the same movie at the same time (but it was at a different portion of the movie when I compared the two).

Thanks ... I thought It did look really good in OAR a couple summers ago when WCPO-DT/ABC aired it in HD(There was no WDTN-DT on air at that time). WBDT/DT has also carried Paramount's HD-One movie package for quite some time(SD airings only of course) ... I wish their digital would upgrade to HD "soon" as well .. WWHO-DT Is the other one in our area that has the HD-One package, and I believe WWHO-DT actually does air all the HD versions. I know they also used to have 2 HD airings of each HD-One movie, one being a very late night airing, which I caught a couple of times last summer(one of thse being "Foul Play", as I recall) when WKRC-DT missed the HD airing and conditions were good enough I could pull in WWHO-DT ..

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #792 of 14363 Old 07-13-2004, 04:42 AM
Member
 
Dimitriz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just got my Silver Sensor last night.
Needless to say it gave me a GREAT signal to FOX-19, unlike any other amplified (or unamplified) antenna that I have tried. Since it's a UHF only antenna it made a nice difference in all UHF channels, and it did OK in VHF..., however is it possible for me to add an antenna in the attick and then combine the signal (from the attick antenna and Silver Sensor) into 1 cable??? I am a n00b when it comes to this so.... feel free to slap me .. hehehe

BTW, Fox19 News stretched to fit screen, is that normal for them to do?

Thanks
Dimitriz is offline  
post #793 of 14363 Old 07-13-2004, 04:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jim tressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Thanks to everyone and their input I now have local hdtv!! I had planned on getting a deep fringe rat shack antenna and putting it in the attic - but when directv came to install the high def dish and ird they brought, free of charge to me, a Winegard Sensar antenna - its a cool looking antenna thats about 1 foot long and about 3 feet wide - http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm - i was skeptical so I tried it in the basement and got a really good signal - so I took it outside at ground level and got a great signal - so I decided to mount it on the peak of my garage - about 20 feet off the ground - very easy mount as the directv installer gave me an extra dish mount - hooked it up and got excellent reception from the Cincinnati locals. Here is my signal strength as of this am on my Hughes HTl-HD ird

WLWT - 95
WKRC - 82
WCET - 89
WCPO - 87
WCVN - 40
WPTO - 75
WXIX - 81
WSTR - 60

I checked sunday night as the storm was over the antennas and my signal strength was about the same.. Question - when is reception impaired the most? How much of an effect will weather have on the signals? Should I try to tweak it out a little more?

Thanks for everyons advice so far!!

Jim
jim tressler is offline  
post #794 of 14363 Old 07-13-2004, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Dimitriz,

Yes, it's possible to Combine a VHF antenna with the Silver sensor+use the same feedline -- I had thought the Silver sensor came with a VHF antenna input you could use? IF not, you would need to use a VHF/UHF combiner/joiner such as CM#0549 -- Radio shack has one too, but I can't think of the part # presently. A "Rabbit ear" VHF antenna will probably be sufficent for you. Keep in mind, Except for WCPO-DT on VHF 10(ABC Cincy -- 9-x) all the Cincinnati(and Dayton for that matter) digital stations currently broadcast on UHF -- WLWT-DT 35 (NBC Cincy) shows up on your receiver as 5-1 as they send out info so it will remap to 5-1 to be "next to" it's analog station #, even though they are really transmitting on UHF channel 35. Same with WKRC-DT 31(12-1).

Because of the way Fox sends its digital programming(including Fox WS) to its affiliates("basically" it is "anamoprhic" 16x9 480i - Just like anamorphic DVD -- Fox ads the black "sidebars" for 4x3 programming at the Network level), WXIX-DT has to switch between a certian setting on their Format/AR converter to send proper aspect ratio for (1) Fox Programming and (2) Local/Syndicated programming. Sometimes, they don't get that "switch"/button flipped correctly(I noticed that was the case during Fox 19 news at 10 when I looked last night too), or it might be a few minutes ... You'll notice during Fox programming when they have it set correctly FOR Fox programming, the locally inserted ads will be "stretched" to 16x9. This will no longer be an issue once Fox starts sending HD+WXIX-DT gets the Splicer installed.

Quote:
Originally posted by jim tressler
Question - when is reception impaired the most? How much of an effect will weather have on the signals? Should I try to tweak it out a little more?

You guys ask tough questions sometimes

Weather or anything else really(except changes at the transmitting facility or on the receiving end) doesn't really have much(key word being "much") effect on the local(Key word being "Local") signals. Lightning is a source of impulse noise interference(as are many man-made sources - Ignition systems in vehicles, electric motors/etc), and a nearby strike can cause a dropout, especially given a weak signal from the station -- Impulse noise effects VHF more than UHF, and VHF Channels 2-6(2-4 especially) much more so than channels 7-13.

However, People who are using indoor antennas that aren't close enough to the towers/etc, or even if you have an outdoor antenna but are in a "fringe area" ---and, who may be only getting a few db of signal over the threshold necessary for Good DTV reception(or are just at that threshold), or people who are having a lot of multipath problems(uncorrectable multipath is seen by the DTV receiver as "noise", just as any interfererence, including NTSC analog signals is just seen as "noise" by the receiver) are probably effected more by weather+seasons -- or at least folks with these sorts of installations may "percieve" effects from the weather/etc. probably moreso than is really the case .... Snow on roof, Leaves on trees/etc can attunuate the signal a small bit or change the multipath echoes a bit. Also, The higher the frequency(RF Channel) the more attenuation you get from Tree leaves/etc.

What can be a problem at times is enhanced signal propagation via "tropospheric ducting" or Tropo Scatter : "Tropo" for short --- (Tropo scatter allways happens to some extent at all times, and is the reason why "RF line of sight" - the "radio horizon" on VHF/UHF is FARTHER than optical line of sight ...) --- "enhanced" Tropo is solely weather related phenomna, and often involve radiational cooling, or Frontal passages -- basically, tempurature inversions and temp/humidity factors cause the "air" in certian low levels of the atmosphere(below 6 miles) to sometimes have a higher "refractive index" which allows signals to be "bent" well beyond curvarture of the Earth, rather than those portions of the signals escaping into space as is "normal'. This can bring in distant signals(sometimes at quite high "levels" - Especially via Tropo ducting, although the "norm" is for signals via tropo scattering effects to be weak) normally out of reach beyond curvature of Earth - If those signals are on the same frequency the locals are on, they can, obviously interfere with reception. There is a better explanation of "tropo" and other modes of Signal propagation(Such as Sporadic E propagation(E-skip, or Es), which only effects lo-VHF (TV ch 2-6), FM broadcast band, and very, very rarely sometimes Hi-VHF TV(7-13)) on VHF/UHF (Including how local reception works) in the "Signal Propagation" section at following site: http://www.dxfm.com

Especially being that the Sensar is a "bi-directional" design, signals off the "back side" from you location could especially potentially cause some co-channel interference(CCI) issues, and especially so given your location+direction to Cincy/Columbus, Ohio Towers, as there are some Columbus, Ohio stations operating on the same frequencies as Cincinnati Stations. WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10, WTTE 28/ WPTO-DT 28, WOSU 34/WCET-DT 34. If the local signal is strong enough though, chances are good that at least a good percentage(hopefully allways) of the time, the local signal will be strong enough to overcome the more distant, occasional co-channel interference. The unfortunate part here however is just how close Columbus is to Cincinnati, and it probably wouldn't take much in the way of enhanced propagation for you to see the Columbus stations. In fact, I'd guess you are probably "getting" a "bit" of signal from the Columbus stations at all times adding to the noise level, even if it isn't enough to actually let you "see" them ... You might need a non-screen muting TV(one the shows "snow" or very weak signals on a "empty" channel), but I'd be surprised if you weren't getting WCMH 4(analog) Columbus to some extent, at least most of the time as well.

Unfortunetly, the amount of spectrum(channels) available to TV stations is so scarace (during DTV transistion especially), that stations have to be "squeezed in" quite close together to make them all fit(the full service stations anyway, not enough room for the LP stations to have a 2nd digital channel assignment). Things will get better in this regard after analog shut off -- At least, lets hope thats the case, if FCC allows unlicensed part 15 devices on so- called "vacant" TV channels IMO we're probably in for a real mess .... IMO BPL will really cause a mess on HF(shortwave/ham/etc.) and possibly Lo-VHF TV/DTV as well.

Anyhow -- I wouldn't worry about it too much though -- The Sensar outside is probably going to work better than anything you could put indoors. Other than to "tweak things" as you say to make sure antenna is orientated for best signal(the analogs can help there) and in a "sweet spot" for good reception -- Or, if you're using the GS1000A (the non amplified version) adding a preamp MAY improve things a bit if you should run into some "dropouts" from WCVN or WSTR .... Otherwise, If you need more signal, or if Co-channel interference does turn out to be an issue at times, You would probably need to get a more directional(to reject co-channel signals coming in from different directions -- such as Columbus), higher gain antenna(such as say, the VU90 - Which is a SMALL VHF/UHF combo meant for relatively strong signal areas)+install it outdoors in order to improve things.

I don't know about every model of receiver out there, but keep in mind, even though it might say "signal strength", in the vast majority of cases(again don't know about the Hughes HTL-HD) the "meters" on our receivers for the most part actually tell us very little about how strong the signal is -- It is more of a "signal quality" reading that tells how easy it is for the receiver to decode the datastream ... You could get a low reading and still have a strong signal from the local station due to interference/multipath issues, or you could have a weak signal(more prone to dropouts due to various issues than a actual stronger signal would be) and get high readings off the receiver(except when you're having the dropouts). The actual "signal strentgh" from the local station involved really doesn't change -- unless they change their antenna/transmitter/etc, or you get a bad connection in your feedline/etc.

I would imagine though from your location+given that you have the antenna outside that it is probably giving you "somewhat" of an indication that WSTR/WCVN signals are a bit weaker than the others --- In other words --- If you can improve the numbers -- Great -- but if you can't or don't want to, I wouldn't worry about it as long as you are getting good, dropout free reception. If you end up getting some dropouts on WSTR/WCVN, its probably the case that if you could get a bit more signal from those stations(with a higher gain, more directional antenna/etc - or more power from WSTR-DT - which will eventually happen) the dropouts would probably go away.

Theoretically, the threshold for Good DTV reception is 15.3db of Signal over noise(somewhere between 16~19db of signal over noise is probably more of a "real world" practial figure), and theoretically If you have that, then reception isn't going to get "better" beyond that point .. BUT -- since the "noise floor" can change due to various issues(such as co-channel interference), IMO, it isn't all that bad of an idea to have a little "extra insurance"(more signal) .... And, I'd WAG you probably have plenty of extra insurance, except perhaps where WCVN-DT/WSTR-DT are concerned. Keep in mind, WSTR is at Low power presently -- and, also its directional antenna pattern doesn't favor the E/SE, and to a lesser extent your direction --- NE ... WCVN/DT is on a tower much shorter than the others, and, in Mainville you are probably just a tad "outside"(or near the edge) of its predicted coverage area -- So am I, of course --- By about 12 miles --- But I get them fine, although it takes a hi-gain directional antenna w/preamp mounted on a 40 Foot tower ...

Only one time can I recall(in Feb 2002) here did WNWO 24 Toledo blast in strong enough off the back side of the antenna to cause a dropout or two to WCVN-DT -- Although I see BOTH WCVN-DT AND WNWO fairly often at the SAME TIME(given proper antenna aiming of course) ... If my antenna was less directional, however, I'd likely have WNWO causing problems to WCVN-DT more often ...If it had better directivity, the one time I got dropouts probably wouldn't have occured(even though that night WNWO was pretty much a "city grade" signal here). Only once have I seen WBNS 10 Columbus cause a dropout to WCPO-DT, although Just about 100% of the time my analog receiver will "lock on" to WBNS's analog signal if I aim the antenna towards Columbus(I do recall we had a fellow from Hillsboro here once however who, it seemed no matter what he did could not cure his Co-channel interference problem from WBNS 10 to WCPO-DT 10) .... I've also already seen WTTE 28 "through" WPTO-DT's "DT snow" several times, but with proper antenna aiming+directional antenna, WPTO-DT(so far anyway) has never dropped below 95% on the "signal quality meter" ... WSKO 29, Somerset, KY has come close to causing Dropouts to WXIX-DT, but its never happened -- Not much I can do about that, since both stations are in the SAME direction ... "Way back when" WCET-DT was running 7KW ERP, on a couple of occasions, I had CCI issues with them and WBKI 34, Cambellsville, KY(in same direction from me). Never been an issue again since WCET-DT went to 215KW ERP -- What did my "signal meter" on my DTC-100 say when WCET-DT was at 7KW ERP? "88"(well, except when it was bouncing around and was generally lower when noise from WBKI was coming in via tropo) -- What does it say now? "88" (That should give you an indication of how these things aren't really "signal strength" meters) .... By far, the most difficult Co-channel interference issue(for many, many years) I've had concerns WPXK 54 analog/WCVN 54 analog -- Even though its over 200 miles away, WPXK is Up on a High Mountain near Jellico, TN and in the Same direction as WCVN, and a little "tropo enhancement" can sometimes go a long way --- Although I haven't seen it much lately for some reason(well, I do see some "hints" of slight CCI(intermittant horizontal lines, basically) to WCVN 54 analog from likely, WPXK pretty much on a daily basis) -- on average of about 5 or 6 times per year, WPXK has wiped out WCVN competely for hours on end and instead of KET I was getting PAX on 54 with some interference from WCVN ....

Probably more than you wanted to know, and of course, if it ain't broke - don't fix it --- Oh -- BTW -- I remember first seeing the Sensar going on RV's in the Late 70's. Probably a good solution to the WAF for both VHF/UHF(although I'd guess its actual performance especially on UHF probably isn't so great), so you can get the antenna outside if it works "well enough" and you're in a relatively strong signal area. Probably works better even on UHF than the CM3010, I'd think, I just hope you don't have too much problem with Co-channel interference from the Columbus stations, given its "bi-directional" design.

Update: I'm just curious, did you/have you had any luck with the Dayton stations? You'd probaby need to aim the antenna approx. NW/NNW for Dayton, though.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #795 of 14363 Old 07-13-2004, 11:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jim tressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Thanks Jeff.. that was a hell of a response.. Are all the cincinnati locals at full power (except Star 64)??
jim tressler is offline  
post #796 of 14363 Old 07-13-2004, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Jim,

WCPO-DT 10 Fully licensed power (13.7KW ERP @ 1578FT ASL(above sea level) - (Note: Takes MUCH less power to cover same area on VHF)

WCVN-DT 24 at fully licensed power (53.5 KW ERP @ 1099FT ASL
)

WPTO-DT 28 At fully licensed power via PTA(program test authority)(400 KW ERP @ 1614FT ASL) (Note: WPTO-DT on WXIX tower)

WKRC-DT 31 At fully Licensed power (800KW ERP @ 1630FT ASL )

WSTR-DT 33 At Low Power - STA(Special Temp authority) (17.1KW ERP @ 1767 FT ASL) - Directional antenna doesn't favour SE, E + to a certian extent NE) - Full Power CP (Construction permit from FCC) is for 500 KW ERP

WCET-DT 34 at "Medium Power" STA (215KW ERP at 1761FT ASL) - Full power CP is for 500KW ERP) - Note: Directional antenna doesn't favor the South. WCET/DT + WLWT/DT on same tower.

WLWT-DT 35 at quite high power STA (512 KW ERP @ 1705FT ASL) - Full power CP is for 1000KW ERP.

Update: Oops, Left one out earlier :

WXIX-DT 29 - At Fully Licensed power - 227KW ERP @ 1660FT ASL (They do have a application on file with FCC to increase power to 600KW ERP, but it was "dismissed" in June of 2003)

---------------------------------

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #797 of 14363 Old 07-13-2004, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I just caught a bit of the Ohio authors program on WPTO-DT 14-3, and while it looks like they are trying to fix their AR issues with some 16x9 programming, it still isn't quite right.

In attached screenshot from just before 3pm today :

At top: Is how they sent the Ohio Author's program today "within" the 4x3 480i ATSC format on 14-3, and this is how it looks on a 4x3 Display, or on a 16x9 display with "sidebars" added at the display to properly display AR for 4x3 programming/ATSC format - It would look like this on the analog as well, if sent this way. As you can see, they have letterboxed it -- however it is still essentially 16x9 video that is being "squeezed into" a 4x3 format .. The difference now is, a portion of the bottom and top(where the black bars are) of the "original" 16x9 frame is being "cut off" by the letterbox bars, - This was more evident in other parts of the program where certian parts of graphics/text that were in the "black bar" area were being "cut off". I don't know quite how to say this, but I *think* just adding in letterbox bars necessary for 16x9 to properly display in a 4x3 frame is a somewhat "independant" process from formatting the 16x9 Video for proper display in a 4x3 format. With 16x9 NTSC video(I.e. like what is on a "anamorphic DVD") (or 480p 16x9 ATSC format) -- For proper AR -- The Pixels are wider than they are tall ... If you just "squeeze that into" a 4x3 area, those pixels will then become taller than they are wide and therefore improper AR will result.

At bottom: I have "stretched" a frame from 14x3 using my 16x9 display's Native "Wide(16x9 mode) -- Thus removing the grey sidebars added by the display for proper display of 4x3 programming within a 4x3 ATSC(or NTSC) format. As you can see, this does display the Ohio author's program in proper aspect ratio rather than the "squeezed" manner in which it is being broadcast, but of course I'm still missing the top+bottom parts of the frame which are being "hid" by the black "letterboxing" bars - Therefore resulting in a "apparent" AR of approx 2.35:1. On previous occasions, If I did this when this program aired, the screen would be filled(properly) with the 16x9 frame.
LL

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #798 of 14363 Old 07-15-2004, 05:36 AM
Member
 
Dimitriz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[b]Dimitriz,

Yes, it's possible to Combine a VHF antenna with the Silver sensor+use the same feedline -- I had thought the Silver sensor came with a VHF antenna input you could use? IF not, you would need to use a VHF/UHF combiner/joiner such as CM#0549 -- Radio shack has one too, but I can't think of the part # presently. A "Rabbit ear" VHF antenna will probably be sufficent for you. Keep in mind, Except for WCPO-DT on VHF 10(ABC Cincy -- 9-x) all the Cincinnati(and Dayton for that matter) digital stations currently broadcast on UHF -- WLWT-DT 35 (NBC Cincy) shows up on your receiver as 5-1 as they send out info so it will remap to 5-1 to be "next to" it's analog station #, even though they are really transmitting on UHF channel 35. Same with WKRC-DT 31(12-1).

Thanks.

BTW, Silver Sensor is a UHF only antenna.
Today I am going to go and return that Jensen antenna to BestBuy, do you have any recommendations for something I can put in the attic? SS does provide a better signal, but it still drops out every few minutes. Maybe I should just get an amplifier for it?
Is Fox45 coming from Dayton? I get better reception on that then Fox19 one, and it broadcasts in HD to. I only watched part of King of the Hill (10-15min) before it started dropping out badly.

Thanks
Dimitriz is offline  
post #799 of 14363 Old 07-15-2004, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Dimitriz,

Yes Silver sensor is a UHF only antenna. I had thought I'd read somewhere that it had a input (i.e. connection) that allowed you to hook up a VHF antenna TO it w/o the need to use a seperate VHF/UHF combiner/joiner, but I could be wrong.

As for a "better" antenna for the attic -- What you would probably want is the biggest VHF/UHF combo(RS VU90, VU120, CM3016, CM3030, ETC) you can get that will fit+still allow you to posistion it for proper aiming. Or, you could get a bit higher performance UHF only antenna such as CM4228/CM4248, perhaps even CM3021(among many others - assuming those will fit through your "attic opening" as well), and combine it with a VHF antenna. Hard to say but the silver sensor+ Rabbit ears might work better placed downstairs near a window that faces the towers in question though -- again Hard to say - You just have to try it - Many different factors can affect reception in any given circumstance, and especially from indoors. (Nearby terrain or buildings in the signal path, the materials used in your residence's construction/etc/etc - remember -- everything within about 10 feet or so(a bit more on VHF) in the direction the antenna is aimed becomes somewhat "conencted" to the antenna and effects the antenna's performance, and also, having the antenna indoors attenuates signal by at least 15db(probably more) -- which is a LOT.

And Yes, you could try a preamp - it might help and it might make things worse. Keep in mind -- again -- the amp is not going to actually get you more signal at the antenna -- you would want a higher gain antenna for that -- also, an antenna with better directivity(rejecting signal off the side/back), along with proper aiming towards the transmitting towers of course) is often helpful as it helps to reduce multipath and interferece, one of which I'd guess are likely to be causing your dropout issues.

A preamp can be a problem however as it can be overloaded by strong signals(they don't necessarily have to be TV stations, as preamps are very broadband). Another potential beneifit from a preamp is if you use seperate VHF/UHF antennas -- a number of preamps(such as the CM7777) come with seperate antenna inputs.

If you have access to an attic, perhaps you have access to a roof as well? Mounting antenna outdoors(with proper installation/grounding of course) would likely be a much better choice. Keep in mind, it is illegal for HOA's(or anyone else) to prevent you from putting an antenna(or dish) on the roof of property you control, except in some very "special" certian circumstances concerning housing on Military bases/etc. If the roof however is (in reality) a "common area", then they might be able to keep you from it. Do a search for "OTARD" on AVSforum or see here for more info:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Yes, WRGT-DT 30 (Analog on Channel 45) Fox is in Dayton. It's FOX Widescreen(480p) upconverted to 720p, its not quite HD yet. Should be HD in 2 or 3 months.

Keep in mind, Dayton Towers are towards your North, Cincinnati Towers are towards your south. Therefore, if you want to receive stations from BOTH cities, you'll likely need to reorient antenna for Dayton or Cincinnati stations, or you'll need a rotor(probably won't work from attic) or seperate antennas(on seperate feedlines -+ switch between them ith a A/B switch near the receiver). There are really no "good" omni-directional antennas -- Especially If you could get it outside however, hard to say but a antenna like Jim is using (the bi-directional sensar) might work for Dayton/Cincy for you, although its probably a longshot and the Dayton stations might still require a bit better antenna.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #800 of 14363 Old 07-15-2004, 10:50 AM
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,773
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 62
I'm trying to update a master list of OTA HD stations. Cincinnati has not yet been updated. Can somebody that knows what networks are broadcasting in HD or HD/DD5.1 go to the following link and post the info?

National List of Stations Broadcasting HD / DD5.1

Just need the Network, Re-mapped Channel#, and if they're DD 5.1. For any of the networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, UPN & WB) that are currently broadcasting in HD.

Thanks....
CPanther95 is offline  
post #801 of 14363 Old 07-15-2004, 02:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jim tressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,097
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I will have the av reciever hooked up this weekend and will check it out for you

jim
jim tressler is offline  
post #802 of 14363 Old 07-15-2004, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
WCVN-DT 24 (KET/PBS HD Covington, KY(6 miles from Downtown Cincy and the other cincy towers) on KET4 (54-4 remap - HD 8-11pm Mon-Sat, 7-11pm Sun) HAS passed through DD 5.1 for PBS HD before .. Only Once that I've noticed, during the Farm Aid Soundstage special around the holidays last year ... There were some comments(probably early in this thread or a earlier one) about it, including comments from William Smith(KET Engineer).

WPTD-DT 58 (PBS HD/ThinkTV) Dayton has also passed DD 5.1 through before for PBS HD channel (16-6 remap - 6pm-6am nightly) -- ONCE that I've noticed, during one of last summer's HD Soundstages. There are some comments about it(including from Charles Cole at ThinkTV, who told us about the DD 5.1 test) from around that time in either the Summer 03 Cincy thread or the Dayton thread from around that time.

WCET-DT 34 (PBS HD Cincinnati) (48-1 remap HD 8-11pm nightly)HD service is allways in DD 5.1 mode, but its just straight stereo out of front L+R channels unless the programming is actually produced in DD 5.1.

WDTN-DT 50 (ABC HD Dayton - 2-1 remap) is allways DD 5.1 during ABC HD programming, DD 2.0 otherwise.

I know that during the season finale of HD "American Dreams", NBC did a DD 5.1 test(I think they may have sent it over the network, but WNBC-DT may have been the only ones to know about it), but I was at the wrong setup to check to see whether or not WLWT-DT 35(5.1 remap - NBC HD Cincy) or WKEF-DT 51 NBC HD Dayton(51.1 - NO PSIP remap)was sending DD 5.1 or not.

Not sure, but don't think WKRC-DT 31 (CBS HD Cincy 12-1 remap) or WHIO-DT (41-1 CBS HD Dayton - NO Remap via PSIP) has DD 5.1 capability Yet, and of course WSTR-DT 33(WB Cincy - 64-1 remap )WBDT-DT 18(WB Dayton - 26.1 remap ) doesn't even have HD yet - neither does WKOI-DT 39(TBN - 43-1 remap "sometimes" ), obviously ...

Neither Fox - WRGT-DT 30-1 (no PSIP remap)Fox WS Dayton/WXIX-DT 29 (19-1 remap )Fox WS Cincy has DD 5.1 capability, and of course they will have DD 5.1 via the splicer system "before too long" during Fox HD programming ...

As Doc Noted, WCPO-DT 10 (9-1 remap, although not getting a remap here from them the past few days - ABC HD Cincinnati) doesn't have DD 5.1 yet, but has plans to add it.

I've personally yet to see any HD programming from WPTO-DT 28 (ThinkTV/PBS Cincy- Oxford) (14-6 remap for HD subchannel) as of yet, but they do have a HD subchannel up(blank whenever I've seen it so far). Note that while the analog WPTO 14 broadcasts from Oxford, Ohio, the Digtial is on WXIX Cincy tower, and they've only been on air for a few weeks now --WPTO-DT is a stone's throw away from one of our other Cincy PBS affiliates(WCET-DT) -- and only 6 miles away from the 3rd Cincy area PBS HD affiliate (WCVN-DT/KET/PBS in N KY - KET is a KY Statewide KET/PBS Network, they have 16 DTV transmitters on air statewide, all of which do PBS HD, but all those XMTR's certianly aren't all in Lexington as some "lists" seem to suggest ;-)....

Sorry to repeat what others have said here or elsewhere, and sorry its not really possible to put it in the "simple list" format you're probably looking for, but I think I covered all 15 DTV stations that are on the air(all which have DTV channel assignments from FCC currently are on air) in Cincinnati/Dayton -- 12 of the 15 have HD or Fox Widescreen(Again WBDT-DT/WSTR-DT WB Dayton/Cincy and WKOI-DT/TBN being the 3 that are missing HD presently), and most are "generally" receivable from both cities and most "outlying areas", as the Dayton/Cincy towers are only a little over 40 miles apart, with WKOI tower in Oxford(no, its not "really" in Richmond, IN, but almost might as well be with their LP STA and directional antenna pattern) being "sort of" in between Cincy/Dayton. Yes, including all the subchannels, I presently get something around 35 channels of OTA HD+DTV from Dayton/Cincinnati DTV stations ... 20+ of those being PBS ....

More info on the Cincy stations in the 2nd~4th or so posts at very beginning of this thread.

And of course, Specifications subject to change(and likely will here, there and everywhere at some point ..... ) w/o notice of course -- For instance, WDTN, ABC Dayton is switching affiliation from ABC to NBC in September -- I don't think we know yet what affiliation(if any) the current NBC Dayton station(WKEF) will get, or what any of that "switching around" will mean for HD from them, or DD 5.1 .... About a Year ago, the Folks at WBDT(WB Dayton DID tell me at that time they would have WB HD at some point but they didn't have a "timeline" for HD, and at that time, they were looking at what equipment to purchase .... From info posted on AVS by Mark Aitken(MrDTV) from Sinclair, I can't say for certian WHEN WSTR-DT (WB Cincy) will upgrade to HD, only that it looks fairly certian that "someday" they will have WB HD ...

BTW, I DO try to keep the station info updated in the post near beginning of this thread (the 2nd or 3rd post) ....

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #803 of 14363 Old 07-15-2004, 10:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
WCVN-DT 24 (KET/PBS HD Covington, KY(6 miles from Downtown Cincy and the other cincy towers) on KET4 (54-4 remap - HD 8-11pm Mon-Sat, 7-11pm Sun) HAS passed through DD 5.1 for PBS HD before

No 5.1 on KET4 recently ... I'm sure William has a logical explaination.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #804 of 14363 Old 07-16-2004, 05:12 AM
Senior Member
 
1450kHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Beavercreek, OH (heh heh, you said Beaver)
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My receiver does indicate how many channels of audio are coming in.

The answer for this area on 5.1 is:
WPTD Dayton: 5.1 rarely
WCET Cincy: 5.1 regularly
WCVN Covington: 5.1 sometimes
WDTN Dayton: 5.1 regularly (during ABC programming)

As for the rest, it's all 2.0.
1450kHz is offline  
post #805 of 14363 Old 07-16-2004, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
1450khz,

You're doing awfully well reception wise if you're pulling in WCVN-DT solidly from Fairborn~Yellow Springs(55~60 miles or so to WCVN(Tower is in Taylor Mill, KY) -- I'd think) area ...

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #806 of 14363 Old 07-16-2004, 12:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
William Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Lexington,Kentucky,USA
Posts: 1,168
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
We've got a problem with audio dropping out from PBS when passing 5.1. ( This occured after a software upgrade to the HD encoding system). If I re code it to 2/0 it doesn't drop out.
William Smith is offline  
post #807 of 14363 Old 07-16-2004, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:


Originally posted by William Smith
We've got a problem with audio dropping out from PBS when passing 5.1. ( This occured after a software upgrade to the HD encoding system). If I re code it to 2/0 it doesn't drop out.

Figured it was something like that ... I just wonder why it seems to work ok on WKMJ but not on the statewide ... Is WKMJ still using the previous software?
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #808 of 14363 Old 07-16-2004, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,265
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Hope I'm not butting in too much(I know William's busy) but FWIW, I would think WKMJ-DT would have to be using(these days anyway) different encoder than is used for the Statewide HD service.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #809 of 14363 Old 07-17-2004, 10:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I would think WKMJ-DT would have to be using(these days anyway) different encoder than is used for the Statewide HD service.

... And you would be correct in your thinking
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #810 of 14363 Old 07-18-2004, 12:36 PM
Member
 
fgrogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Loveland, OH, USA
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi neighbors,

Building a new home on RT 48 2-3 miles north of Loveland. I am doing the whole house low voltage prewire myself. I don't have a HDTV yet, i would hope to get one in the next 12 months or so (once moving/new house costs drop off some), but I am in to home theater and DirecTV with TiVo quite a bit. a few questions:

1) I am planning to get a HD DirecTV TiVo when I buy a HDTV next year and to support my current investment in SD Direct TiVo's I will be using a standard 3 LNB oval dish, 4 runs of rg6 and my existing 5x8 multi-switch.

question: I was planning to pull another rg6 for a future HDTV OTA antenna, it that enough? Or should I pull another rg6 cable and/or wire for a rotor system?

2) Still debating if I will put up a new dish myself or get DirecTV movers program to do it, but should i just bite the bullet and put up a HDTV antenna and be done with it? advice on an antenna would be great.


Thanks in advance
fgrogan is offline  
Reply Local HDTV Info and Reception

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off