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post #901 of 14379 Old 07-31-2004, 06:51 PM
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Jeff --

Thanks for the info! I think I understand most of it, and here is some preliminary follow-up. In checking, found my antenna was mis-aligned (by about 45 degrees!) Started up to re-set it, and at about 10 foot above the roof decided the wife was correct - I will let someone younger do it. Sigh.

Antenna is a Winegard HD7084P, with rotor, installed on 40' mast last spring (by someone younger). RS pre-amp (#15-2507, I think) is located inside the attic about 25' from antenna. Output from pre-amp is split for upstairs/downstairs sets. Lead to downstairs set (HDTV) is also split downstairs for TV & STB. Cable runs are all RG-6. Upstairs run is about 25' from pre-amp; downstairs is about 75'. STB is strictly ATSC tuner - our DirectTV is original 1994 unit with single satellite dish, dual LNB & separate cable runs.

The WCPO viewing area map indicates I'm in their viewing area. 19 comes in, but is very snowy. Video usually holds, audio okay. Reminds me of early days of b&w. 48 was extremely snowy - 64 did not come in. This was with antenna pointing somewhere between Dayton & Cincy, would estimate 230 degrees. Lived here for over 30 years & don't remember ever hearing of WRCX or WWRD-LP! WRCX is stable, but very snowy. WWRD did not lock. Did pick up a channel 54 from somewhere, with what appears to be harmonic interference from 45, but video subjected to constant tearing. The pre-amp has adjustable gain. I set it at appx mid-point - full gain resulted in too much interference from another channel 45. Still get some, but not too bad most of the time.

Read pre-amp specs just now - doesn't sound like that is the unit I should be using (<15dB gain, 4.5dB noise, I/O return loss 8dB). If "I/O return loss" is comparable to insertion loss from a splitter, I'd guess that the total loss from the pre-amp & splitters more than offset the gain of the pre-amp. Any recommendations on a pre-amp? The Winegard web site recommends using one of theirs. Gee - whoda thought?

A related question, if you don't mind, after reading your info & thinking about my reply. I'm contemplating "upgrading" my DirecTV to HD with the three bird dish & a 5x8 multi-switch. Would the multi-switch result in less "insertion loss" than I've got now? Another benefit would be a shorter cable run to the downstairs (ran new cables in interior walls - saves about 25').

Again, thanks for all the info. Will let you know what happens after I get the antenna "fixed"!

Carl
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post #902 of 14379 Old 07-31-2004, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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All,

Just Caught first HD I've had a chance to see from WPTO-DT 14-6 -- Looks like they are timeshifting PBS HD/widescreen programming(Great idea!), as it is NOT the same HD schedule as the PBS HD Channel Feed on WPTD-DT, WCVN-DT+WCET-DT.

Carl,

Unless it's a "mix of intermod" you're seeing(Ch 2+7 especially then 16/22/26/45 and Perhaps "herringbone" from Dayton FM stations, as well or mixes of those are probably showing up here, there and almost everywhere they shouldn't be ... This is a visable effect of "intermodulation distortion(IM) likely being created because the preamp is overloading .... If it isn't a "mix o' IM effects" .... The station you see on 54 is likely WCVN (KET/PBS) Covington, KY. If so, there would be a KET1 Bug down in RH Lower corner. Its Digital is on RF channel 24. Could be a bit of short range "tropo", I suppose but otherwise, I'd be sort of surprised that you would be seeing WCVN and not see anything from WSTR 64, although stranger things certianly have happened

One more suggestion FWIW -- You Might be able to get both Cincy and Dayton on one antenna heading, but I'd think you would probably also benefit from adding a rotor as well when you get the antenna "fixed", as Columbus stations should be "in range" for you as well ...

In addition to preamp overload/Intermod problems --- Sounds like you're just not getting enough signal From Cincy stations(or you're just getting too much noise from the preamp) --- Hard to say --- I could see 48, and even 40+55(its tower is near Bellbrook BTW) being a bit snowy, but, unless you have a "serious" enough Nearby terrain issue in that direction, even with the antenna a bit off target I wouldn't think 19 should be all that snowy .. Heck, I lived in Fairborn(on N Broad ST, quite Near I-675) in the 80's when going to WSU, and WXIX 19 was only a TAD snowy on Rabbit ears in 3rd floor apt(brick building with the most "walls" to the south).

So, I have to wonder if there is a possibility that there is something else "wrong" as well, such as a bad connection somewhere, unless the preamp is really "messing things up" even more than "seems" apparent ... as I'd think with that setup that you really should be seeing better results ..... Although, according to the Gain/pattern specs on the 7084 ( here(requires Acrobat reader: http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd7084p.pdf ) on Winegard site, it DOES seem like it has quite a "tight" pattern(excellent directivity) - especially on UHF ...

On the RS distribution amp -- Yeah, I'd get rid of that thing -- Hard to say, but things might even work better if you take the thing out of line(Might want to try it with just RG6 between antenna+STB (no splitters) to see what you get). I don't think they are talking about Insertion loss with the I/O(input/output) return loss figure(at least I hope not) -- I don't really know WHAT they are talking about there.

Although something with about 15-20db gain 3-5db NF or so would probably be right along the lines of what you are looking for -- I'd stay away from the "adjustable gain" models, they don't seem to work too well "generally speaking" ... IF you would need to "adjust gain" to keep the front end of receiver from overloading(probably should not be an issue for you, but who knows) one of RS's adjustable atteunators would be better. Remember Though -- preamps don't really "add gain" or amount of signal the antenna is "pulling in" --- They Can compensate for losses from the feedline run/insertion loss from splitting signal AND, a Hi-quality amp can lower the overall "noise figure" the front end of your receiver "sees" ... IF the preamp/front end of receiver is not overloaded and creating "extra noise"(so to speak) all over the place. ( i.e.: intermodulation distortion or, "desense" if its the receiver overloading although(I could be wrong) the latter is probably pretty rare with TV/DTV receivers but NOT FM receivers) that is ...

Anyhow -- Winegard/Blonder-Tongue and Channel Master make some nice preamps that are fairly good at not overloading when you have strong signals mixed in with the weak ones, although if you are "too close" to The Dayton TV antenna farm (or any strong nearby source of RF on VHF/UHF frequencies, as these preamps are quite broadband) -- It might get difficult to get much real benefit from a preamp w/o trapping out the strongest signals(which can get "complicated" and expensive ...).

Anyhow ... You're probably going to want to go with a mast Mount preamp instead of a distribution amp for best results, although, I have heard some folks who have tested a Motorola Drop amp(about 15db gain if I recall correctly) that is out there that seems to do VERY well when "overload issues" are a problem. Don't recall the Part #, but I think Best buy might have them. Generally though -- IMO For best results for OTA however, you'd want to get the amp as CLOSE to antenna as possible -- meaning on the mast itself ... With a mast mount preamp --- The amp itself goes Close to antenna, on the mast+is fed DC power via the coax -- The power supply goes in the house(so you can plug it in to A/C) "somewhere" BEFORE you use any passive splitters.

Personally, I currently use a 20+ year old Blonder-Tongue "suburban II" mast mount preamp with about the specs you are probably looking for, although it's hooked to a 300ohm antenna(with balun on circut board of the amp), but from the specs on the 7084 looks like you'd want to get a preamp with a 75 Ohm VHF/UHF input.

This place has most of what B-T, Winegard+CM offers(among other things -- Here's their B-T preamp page: http://www.starkelectronic.com/btk1-1.htm -- There's also a place in Dayton Called "Wintronic" that I think can get the B-T, as well as CM stuff : http://www.wintronic.com/daytonwintronic/index.htm).

I know a lot of people are using preamps like the CM7777 Which might have a little TOO much gain for you+thus overload a little too easily given the Nearby dayton stations, and also that Cincinnati isn't all that much "different" heading wise, which would make it difficult for your antenna to reject much of the strong signals from Dayton "off the side" when you're aimed towards Cincy -- Although, even the CM7777 is known for not overloading "too easily".

I'm not real sure what you are asking about the Multiswitch -- I don't use sat or Cable, and don't know much about that stuff so I probably can't help much there (Doc probably can though) ...

Only thing I could offer would be -- IF you weren't using a preamp -- I'd say It would probably help to reduce your cable run as much as possible -- And/OR get rid of the splitters or anything between antenna+receiver w/ any sort of insertion loss -A Multiswitch/diplexor WOULD have some insertion loss as well, I'd think moreso than 100' or so of Coax except for some very expensive multiswitches out there I've heard of ($$$'s but I don't know) ... BUT with a good preamp(if you can use one w/o it overloading) --- I wouldn't worry too much about the Coax run at 100~200Feet --- A good preamp should easily take care of that, as well as insertion losses to split the signal some "number of times", although hard to say HOW often you'll be able to split before it makes "enough" of a difference.

I Don't think you'd be able to use diplexors to combine feed from Sat dish/OTA antenna IF you are using a mast mount preamp, as it would "mess up" the DC Voltage that needs to go from the power supply in the house to the preamp on the past. There may be a way to make "something" like that work given the right equipment, I don't know.

Let us know how it goes,

Jeff
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post #903 of 14379 Old 08-01-2004, 07:50 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I'd guess, WKRC-DT 31(usually remaps to 12-1 but not presently)

Is this still a problem? I didn't know there was a problem with my re-mapping. Let me know

Weasel

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post #904 of 14379 Old 08-01-2004, 07:55 PM
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As of this evening, it still shows 31-1 on my Zenith C34W37 HDTV instead of the usual 12-1.

-----------
Robert
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post #905 of 14379 Old 08-01-2004, 08:40 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
Is this still a problem? I didn't know there was a problem with my re-mapping. Let me know

Well, it's kinda strange. On my Samsung T-151 (ATSC-ONLY), it's been 31-1 since my post a page or two back. But on my Zenith, it tunes in either location (the strange part).

When WCPO-DT had the remap bit off, the Zenith would show signal level, but no picture at 9-1, but was fine at 10-1 That's the way it NORMALLY behaves with the remap bit off. Such as with WKEF-DT and WHIO-DT. But with you, it tunes. It's almost as if the Zenith sees something the Samsung does not. FWIW, the Samsung doesn't see your timestamp, either. The Zenith gets its time info from D*.

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post #906 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 06:16 AM
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Ugh... so I guess this means no NFL in HD this fall...


Quote:


Originally posted by jim tressler
here is an email i received from wxix
=====================================
Thank you for your message. FOX19 is currently developing the ability
to broadcast in HDTV. This process should be completed by January
2005.

Thanks.


Rick Oliver
Operations Manager

-----Original Message-----
From: gb [mailto:darby427@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:50 AM
To: Oliver, Rick
Subject: Fox 19 - Digital

Hello Rick,

Can you provide any information on Fox 19's switchover to HDTV? Has
the
digital network splicer been installed yet, if not what is the
approximate time table? Also, I have noticed since yesterday wxix-dt
has been off the air.

Thanks for you time

Jim Tressler

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post #907 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 07:42 AM
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This doesnt mean anything unless you talk to the "right person"... some responses I got before I talked to CE included stuff like "We dont broadcast HD and maybe by 2006..." etc.



Quote:


Originally posted by jim tressler
here is an email i received from wxix
=====================================
Thank you for your message. FOX19 is currently developing the ability
to broadcast in HDTV. This process should be completed by January
2005.

Thanks.


Rick Oliver
Operations Manager

-----Original Message-----
From: gb [mailto:darby427@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2004 7:50 AM
To: Oliver, Rick
Subject: Fox 19 - Digital

Hello Rick,

Can you provide any information on Fox 19's switchover to HDTV? Has
the
digital network splicer been installed yet, if not what is the
approximate time table? Also, I have noticed since yesterday wxix-dt
has been off the air.

Thanks for you time

Jim Tressler

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post #908 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 08:08 AM
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...speaking of late-date's of technology, what ever happened to one of the local's, 9-1, I think(?) going 5.1 DD when moving to their new facility?? (not including 48-1 that is already)...

BTW...my 12-1 (w/my Hughes HDTivo box) worked fine yesterday for the Buick open(3-6pm) even though it wasn't in HD ...
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post #909 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 08:19 AM
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WCPO-DT's plans were to do the upgrade to 5.1 sometime after the move was complete. Could be this fall, could be next spring. But - as with any move of this magnitude - they're still far from having time to fiddle with the digital. I would imagine their concentration for now is moving from temporary rigging to more permanent installations. You gotta get it ON the air, first, then nail everything down later . We were in our new studio for 4 months before we got into our permanent control room and when I left, the guts were still hanging out of the back of THAT console. And that's RADIO. I can't even fathom how much work it takes to do the fit-and-trim on a television studio.

In other words, we'll get it when they have engineers with nothing to do and some $$ left over in the budget.

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post #910 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 08:20 AM
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I thought that would have already happened but they are still not broadcasting in 5.1. Last I heard, they were having problems with their encoder.

-----------
Robert
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post #911 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Still not getting remamp to 12-1 via PSIP here (on Zenith HDV420 - I Don't have channel remapping turned on on the DTC-100, so I can't check it)-- This has been the case since Doc first posted about it earlier last week or so. I'd guess Those that ARE getting WKRC-DT 12-1, are probably getting it via D* EPG in some fashion.

Jeff
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post #912 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 08:58 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
I'd guess Those that ARE getting WKRC-DT 12-1, are probably getting it via D* EPG in some fashion.

Some receivers (like the E86) will retain a mapping once it has been stored in it's memory ... for a long time this was the only way I could access WKYT-DT when the mapping information from D*/Tribune was hosed.
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post #913 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Dimitriz
This doesnt mean anything unless you talk to the "right person"...

Not really. Any bit of info one can get is relevant in some fashion(even though it may not allways be 100% accurate -- such as the 2006 HD date you were given). I've talked to WXIX GM, PD and CE many times, and they know what is "going on" at their station --- As Doc mentioned, they just may have different "perspectives" on an issue such as this.

My guess is, noone there probably knows yet exactly when the splicer system needed for Fox HD will be installed at WXIX. For instance, I had heard when someone recently asked(just last week) when the HD splicer would be installed, their CE responded with "I don't have a clue". Which I'm sure was an accurate answer as well.

From what I understand(could be wrong about this though), I think they will have to be doing 720p before the install crews will even try to schedule the splicer install, so obviously, at this point it wouldn't seem that anyone there would know a "exact date" when that will occur .... and remember -- the splicer crews are busy, as they have to do the install at nearly every Fox affiliate in U.S.

The info you posted from their CE earlier in this thread seems to indicate(that's the way I read it anyway) that they plan on being READY for the Splicer upgrade by September. Perhaps their CE thinks, or has some info that indicates the install crew may be be able to schedule the splicer upgrade sooner, rather than later and hopefully that will be the case -- As soon as they ARE ready for the splicer(sending 720p/getting the necessary sat feed/etc/etc) it *could* happen. But, It *Might* be September, or it might be *December* before a splicer install crew (not the people who work on the sat feed/sat dishes) can actually do the HD upgrade at WXIX.

Therefore, Oliver is giving Jim an accurate(although perhaps not as optimistic) answer when he said the "process should be complete by Jan 2005". It *might* be complete in September, October, Nov or December -- Any way you look at it, it *should* be complete by Jan 2005.

I've heard that Fox plans on having all the affiliates upgraded by the end of the year, and also that they want to shut down the Fox Widescreen distribution system by the end of the year. Therefore, again -- it *should* be the case that Oliver's statement will be accurate, whether WXIX-DT starts sending HD in September, or December.

Personally, I wouldn't count on seeing FOX HD from WXIX-DT until I see it on my screen. As for speculation -- I'd speculate we'll probably see Fox HD from WXIX-DT sometime between Mid-september and late January ...

Also, Keep in mind, WRGT-DT, Fox Dayton already has the FOX HD upgrade(splicer/etc) "installed" --- That happened in May. For those between Cincy+Indy -- Splicer is already installed at WXIN-DT Indy. For those South of the river(and maybe North of river in some circumstances as well) There is even a possibility that WDKY-DT 4, Lexington, KY will not only get the splicer upgrade "soon"("sometime this fall"), but will also move to full power "soon" from their new tower which is currently under construction. Not sure about the status of Fox Columbus or Louisville.

Jeff
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post #914 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 10:07 AM
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The Re-mapping on WKRC-DTV is now fixed.

If there is problems again feel free to private message me or call.

Weasel

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post #915 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 10:43 AM
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Thanks, Weasel. Will do. Ditto Jeff's post, below. Samsung caught it automatically. Any guesses as to why it didn't catch ALL the boxes like WCPO-DT's did?

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post #916 of 14379 Old 08-02-2004, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Weasel,

Thanks for being so responsive, will do. It isn't a problem for me whether or not it remaps, but I know it can effect some equipment.

BTW, Zenith HDV420 recognized the remap "automatically"(I was already "sitting" on 31-1 during lunch) at approx 1:19pm here.

Looking forward(hopefully) to the HD-one HD airing this month ...

Jeff
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post #917 of 14379 Old 08-03-2004, 08:30 AM
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question with next monday nights HOF game being on abc and hi-def , I am assuming that wcpo-dt will carry it in full high def - 16x9 and 720p?? - no crappy side bars or upconverted sd material?

thanks

jim
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post #918 of 14379 Old 08-03-2004, 08:34 AM
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Appears to be, according to TitanTv, but you never know.

WCPODT 10 (10.1) Monday 8/9/2004 8:00 PM, 3 hrs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Monday Night Football

Exhibition: Broncos vs. Redskins

Washington vs. Denver in the annual Hall of Fame exhibition in Canton, Ohio. Al Michaels and John Madden return to the broadcast booth, with Michele Tafoya joining the team as on-field reporter.
High Definition (HD)

Panny Plasma Junkie: TC-P50VT20, TC-P50G15, TH-42PX60U
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post #919 of 14379 Old 08-03-2004, 09:57 AM
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Jim..

Barring other technical issues, WCPO-DT has been great about carring ABC-HD football in full 720p. If they don't switch, then something crapped out. I'm sure the digital installation still falls under my "temporary" rigging comments from above. Just hope we don't have severe weather. Whenever they put up a bug, the integrated HD switcher "takes" the SD feed.

Wouldn't hurt for you to write WCPO-DT and tell them how much you're looking forward to HD football, yada yada yada. Assuming you haven't .

Doc

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post #920 of 14379 Old 08-03-2004, 10:03 AM
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i guess a better question is - how did they do it last year? I would imagine if they did it correctly last year then this year should be no different

jim
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post #921 of 14379 Old 08-03-2004, 10:03 AM
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good idea doc!
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post #922 of 14379 Old 08-07-2004, 09:00 AM
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WLWT-DT Olympics update.

Sort of. Had a conversation with one of the techs who says WLWT's HD Olympic plans still are not nailed down, but HE's under the assumption that they're carrying the whole 24-hour loop EXCEPT for those times WLWT is airing local news. To me, this is a plus as it makes me think some local sponsors are watching the DT enough that they can't just throw the switch and forget about it.

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post #923 of 14379 Old 08-09-2004, 08:16 PM
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Dr Don: we think alike! I just wrote them about their schedule posted on the web. Man, I hope you're right and it's wrong!

Quote:


Dear Sirs:

I just read that NBC got some kind of analog-simulcast waiver from the FCC to broadcast the Olympics in HDTV 24/7. When I look at WLWT-DT's schedule for the next two weeks it doesn't seem to have the 8-hour loop 3 times a day like NBC's national HD schedule. Please say this is a mistake! If I want to watch Judge Judy it's pretty easy to switch over to the analog input.

Your OTA DTV viewers are a special bunch and crave every last drop of saturated MPEG goodness you can provide. If I didn't write before -- thank you a million times over for dropping the subchannel! Your picture rocks - it's the best in town!!

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post #924 of 14379 Old 08-09-2004, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by psm0110
I just wrote them about their schedule posted on the web.

I'm sure the schedule is wrong ... I think it was probably back in Feb 2002 when there was any programming which differed on WLWT/WLWT-DT (Winter 2002 Olympics HD coverage) .... Which of course was before analog simulcast rule went into effect ..

If anyone wants to see it -- Here's the waiver of Analog Simulcast Rule for All NBC affiliates for Summer Games(requires Acrobat reader) - Issued by FCC on 7/28/04 :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-04-2335A1.pdf

Of course, only a few Days after issuing the waiver on 8/4/04 -- Not sure when it goes into effect but, as part of the report and order concerning their 2nd DTV review --- FCC decided to do away with the analog simulcast rule alltogether (Could be reinstated in the future however) ... See here(link requires acrobat reader) :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-250542A1.pdf

Jeff
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post #925 of 14379 Old 08-10-2004, 05:07 AM
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Relax. My contact is a little more definite, now. WLWT-DT will now carry the whole HD Olympic loop. I still can't guarantee they won't drop it for local news. But I'll take 21/7 any day.

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post #926 of 14379 Old 08-10-2004, 10:18 AM
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Today Fox Tech is installing equipment at the station.
The new satellite antenna has not been installed and would take at least 3 weeks to do so. (= no early Sept. rollout)

Either way, the "hope" of the earliest 720p is late September at best.
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post #927 of 14379 Old 08-10-2004, 01:36 PM
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Doc: I got confirmation back from their engineer and program director:

Quote:


We are indeed planning to "sit" on the NBC HD feed 24/7 for our DTV source. You will get all the MPEG goodness we can provide.

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post #928 of 14379 Old 08-10-2004, 01:38 PM
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And a full 19Mb/s of MPEG goodness, at that!!

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post #929 of 14379 Old 08-11-2004, 07:51 AM
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I assume this has been brought up before but here's a basic question about OTA locals vs TWC locals & an HD content contest:

Who's got more?

Did I read somewhere that TWC (or Voom for that matter) has local in HD all the time, 24/7? How is that possible isn't all the content still coming from all the same local broadcaster? Isn't HD content dictated by the networks broadcast in? Maybe they're not getting from locals??...I just would like some assurance that I am getting "all drops" of HD content possible...Thanks!
PS I'm a D* guy with an antennae
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post #930 of 14379 Old 08-11-2004, 08:13 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by chrisdow
How is that possible isn't all the content still coming from all the same local broadcaster?

You're correct. And VOOM's model is the same as D* ..your local HD is OTA. I think the cable folks simply mean that their local channels are in 1080i or 720p full time, just like the broadcaster's transmitter. Doesn't mean that the source material is HD.
Quote:


I just would like some assurance that I am getting "all drops" of HD content possible...Thanks!
PS I'm a D* guy with an antennae

W/r/t locals, you'll actually do better. With an antenna, you can pick up (depending on where you are) Cincy AND Dayton HD locals, plus all of the digital channels that aren't in HD. Cable can only carry the stations licensed to serve their area. In other words, if WCPO's DT transmitter goes down, you can't switch to WDTN-DT for Monday Night Football. Using OTA, you're only limited by what your antenna can receive.

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