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Local HDTV Info and Reception

Trip in VA's Avatar Trip in VA
06:59 PM Liked: 67
post #11071 of 14416
04-14-2009 | Posts: 14,470
Joined: Jun 2003
I doubt they're up yet with Mobile DTV. If they were, they'd probably be shouting from the rooftops promoting it.

Much like WRAL in Raleigh when they launched today or yesterday or whenever. They had a big press conference and whatnot for it and are promoting it by showing it on area buses. I've already received a raw transport stream capture for it.

Mobile DTV is also being shown on KVMY in Las Vegas right now for the NAB event next week. You can find a TSReader capture for it as an attachment in the Las Vegas thread.

- Trip
rvillalvag's Avatar rvillalvag
06:13 AM Liked: 10
post #11072 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill R (# 2) View Post

I posted the list for Insight's clear QAM broadcast channels several months ago and, as for as I know, they haven't changed. You should be able to get WKRC-DT on 94.31 (mapped to 12.1). The CW (OTA 12.2) is on the analog tier on channel 25. Insight does not carry the HD feed of WPTO (14.x) or any of WPTO's subchannels. The analog feed of WPTO is on channel 14.

Thanks for the info... There is something not right with WKRC. When I enter 12.1, the info shows 1080i video, but I get a "failed to receive broadcast message", and the TV can't find channel 94.31. Could it be a signal strength issue? Is there anything I can ask the cable provider to do?

Thanks!
Bill R (# 2)'s Avatar Bill R (# 2)
08:06 AM Liked: 10
post #11073 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvillalvag View Post

Thanks for the info... There is something not right with WKRC. When I enter 12.1, the info shows 1080i video, but I get a "failed to receive broadcast message", and the TV can't find channel 94.31. Could it be a signal strength issue? Is there anything I can ask the cable provider to do?

Thanks!

Yes, it could be a signal strength issue. And someone recently told me that his TV did not fine it on 94.31 but it was on a 94.xx channel. My HDTV shows the actual channel number that the cable company is sending it on and the channel that it is mapped to - the display looks like this - (94.31) 12.1. Some TVs don't display the true channel number, they only show the mapped channel number if a channel is mapped.

What does your TV show for 109.7? Channel 109.7 is WOTH (OTA 25.1) but is not mapped. Channel 109.10 is Insight's channel 1 (on their cable boxes) and is another unmapped channel. Both are clear QAM and you should be able to receive them.
1Cosmo1's Avatar 1Cosmo1
10:13 AM Liked: 10
post #11074 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terryfoster View Post

This is simply not true. It all boils down to commercials using the maximum allowable volume and eliminating any dynamic range. The links below describe what's going on quite well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17229281/

http://www.rd.com/living-healthy/why...icle96931.html

Thanks for the info and the links, I found them very helpful.

I have started to record more programs so I can skip the commercials.

I know that the commercials are needed if we are to have "free" OTA TV but it's so annoying to have the remote always at the ready to mute or turn down the volume so you are not blasted right out of your seat.

Don't you all love the furnature (carpet?) guy that screams the whole commercial?
Bill R (# 2)'s Avatar Bill R (# 2)
01:11 PM Liked: 10
post #11075 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Cosmo1 View Post

Don't you all love the furniture (carpet?) guy that screams the whole commercial?

I just don't understand advertisers. Do they think that people buy more stuff from them because they use "Billy Mays style" of pitchmen? I make it a point to NEVER buy their products.
Bubster's Avatar Bubster
02:05 PM Liked: 11
post #11076 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 485
Joined: Apr 2004
Chuckling at the spellchecked quote!
robmadden1's Avatar robmadden1
10:02 PM Liked: 10
post #11077 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 290
Joined: Feb 2008
KET 54 analog went off the air at 12:02am for good. No goodbuy no nothing just went to snow. I am now picking up something on 54 that is very faint. Don't know where this 54 is located at.
robmadden1's Avatar robmadden1
10:15 PM Liked: 10
post #11078 of 14416
04-15-2009 | Posts: 290
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I figured it out its 19 bleeding over on to 54.
DaveA28's Avatar DaveA28
10:22 AM Liked: 10
post #11079 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill R (# 2) View Post

I just don't understand advertisers. Do they think that people buy more stuff from them because they use "Billy Mays style" of pitchmen? I make it a point to NEVER buy their products.

When Billy Mays comes on, I hit MUTE! I cant stand his voice.
ThoraX695's Avatar ThoraX695
04:21 PM Liked: 15
post #11080 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robmadden1 View Post

I figured it out its 19 bleeding over on to 54.

Don't you live close to their transmitter?
William Smith's Avatar William Smith
04:33 PM Liked: 11
post #11081 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 1,168
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WCVN when down by remote control.

Bob Ball and I shut down WKLE.. He shutdown V1 which was still running on the original IOT from 1995 and I shut down V2.


William
microbob's Avatar microbob
05:00 PM Liked: 11
post #11082 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Smith View Post

WCVN when down by remote control.

Bob Ball and I shut down WKLE.. He shutdown V1 which was still running on the original IOT from 1995 and I shut down V2.


William

What is KET doing with the old analog equipment? Does it just go the scrap pile or can the old gear able to be converted to digital and the rest resold to other parts of the world like South America?
ThoraX695's Avatar ThoraX695
05:55 PM Liked: 15
post #11083 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 393
Joined: Mar 2007
I'm curious. How many people have contacted KET about losing their analog KET signal or are having problems with their KET digital signal?
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
06:28 PM Liked: 18
post #11084 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 6,292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I doubt they're up yet with Mobile DTV.

WBNS has already(In 2007) done some testing of M/H, but probably not while I was "looking". Some info near end of following article :

http://broadcastengineering.com/mobi...leDTV20070417/

Anyway, don't think there are any tools(Other than a M/H receiver) I could use to do anything with it yet, but when I do come across one, In addition to capping the TS, I'm also going to try TSreader's "Record PID" function to just get a bit of the M/H stream ... Somewhere in there (via IP transport) among other things there would be AVC video/AAC audio streams, and of course those are no problem to decode with a PC ....
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
06:46 PM Liked: 18
post #11085 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 6,292
Joined: Dec 2001
FYI, WKOI's Analog shutOff Notification(Filed 3/16/09 - at following link) to FCC indicates they will shut down "between 6:01pm~11:59pm on April 16 :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=67869

But, this article reports May 1 shut off for WKOI :

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...=2009903190347

------------

I was hoping for Today(hasn't happened yet as of 20:50 EDT), and thought I'd seen something up on WKOI to that effect at some point ...

--------

Update: Never mind ... Caught some info on WKOI at 9:30pm, they're saying April 16 (Tonight) ....
Trip in VA's Avatar Trip in VA
06:58 PM Liked: 67
post #11086 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 14,470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

WBNS has already(In 2007) done some testing of M/H, but probably not while I was "looking". Some info near end of following article :

http://broadcastengineering.com/mobi...leDTV20070417/

Anyway, don't think there are any tools(Other than a M/H receiver) I could use to do anything with it yet, but when I do come across one, In addition to capping the TS, I'm also going to try TSreader's "Record PID" function to just get a bit of the M/H stream ... Somewhere in there (via IP transport) among other things there would be AVC video/AAC audio streams, and of course those are no problem to decode with a PC ....

Interesting. I didn't know WBNS had already tested it.

The guy who does TSReader is planning to add ATSC-M/H support in a future release. I've sent him captures from two stations and he says he's going to attempt to decipher the documents at some point. No idea when or anything though.

- Trip
William Smith's Avatar William Smith
07:17 PM Liked: 11
post #11087 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 1,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoraX695 View Post

I'm curious. How many people have contacted KET about losing their analog KET signal or are having problems with their KET digital signal?

So far less than 75 have called our helpline.

William
ThoraX695's Avatar ThoraX695
08:09 PM Liked: 15
post #11088 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Smith View Post

So far less than 75 have called our helpline.

That's seems to be a good number so far. Though I bet you that most of those calls were from Cincinnati given our track record.
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
08:34 PM Liked: 18
post #11089 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 6,292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

The guy who does TSReader is planning to add ATSC-M/H support in a future release. I've sent him captures from two stations and he says he's going to attempt to decipher the documents at some point. No idea when or anything though.

Quite a project there I'd think ... Will be excellent if he is successful ...

I had read the SF thread+Your and Ron's discussion there+ on the Mobile DTV thread -- And I had previously also looked through the A/153 docs for anything that might have given us an idea of how the M/H streams might be detected, with say TSreader -- But oddly enough I didn't find anything. Or just missed anything of relevance, as I find the A/153 docs much more difficult to process than the A/53 stuff. I 1/2 expected(until those caps/info) M/H would only show up in the Null packet stream, or outside of the MPEG2-TS alltogether such that maybe the TS Mux rate shown in TSreader would be lower/different than what we normally see(allways about 19.4Mb/s) ....

Anyway -- After reading those posts+the info on the caps you have one thing crossed my mind that it seems quite interesting the M/H stream seems to be a stream that is "within" the MPEG2-TS -- Much like any other stream there(such as say one of KET's datacast streams). And yet, a M/H receiver wouldn't "see" anything else in the TS besides the M/H stuff -- such as for example, when SNR is below threshold needed to decode "DTV as we know it",(~15dB SNR useable by receiver) but at or above what is needed for M/H (about 4dB SNR ....)

If I'm thinking about it correctly, seems to me it should be possible that with the right tools we could process/decode Free-to-air M/H services with our current hardware(with PC/ATSC "tuner" card or USB stick for the cap) :

As long as we can decode the legacy DTV service as we do currently(as long as we have 15dB SNR or greater which is useable by receiver) --- But, I don't know at this point if it is possible we can take advantage of what M/H offers in terms of greater robustness (and lower required SNR) without new hardware that supports M/H --- If it is possible, though, it does seem to me we would need new drivers (or "modules" for TSReader for input source that supports our specific hardware) that support M/H -- such as for example, the drivers for my card, and the ATSC BDA source my Hauppauage HVR-1600 uses which I use with TSreader ....

Anyway what I do understand out of the A/153 docs so far(which isn't much), it seems to be quite a accomplishment ... But Per Table 6.1 in A/153 Part 2 document, where it lists the efficiency of all the different modes(not including the FEC/etc. used for the A/53 legacy system which is outside of our total 19.383mb/s payload) --- Regarding M/H payload bits "available" as involving anywhere between 3~34% efficiency depending upon which mode(how much additional Error correction) is used ... That seems to me to be a huge bandwidth penalty, with much of the bits taken up by M/H (Can be anywhere from just .917 Mb/s up to 7.334Mb/s of our 19.383Mb/s Payload depending upon how the station implements it) used by additional FEC ....

On the one hand -- I think it could be a great thing, not only for mobile applications, but, with receiver which supports it(and "allows" an external antenna to be hooked up to it, if we get M/H receivers in anything other than cell phones/etc) I think also for fixed reception in difficult circumstances when the main "fixed" services as we know them are difficult to receive reliably AND for emergency info when power goes out/etc. via handheld battery powered TV's/"mobile" devices/etc ...

But, On the other hand, if somehow, it does turn out to be quite sucessful, what happens to OTA HDTV and current (MPEG2 /"A53 Only") receivers .....
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
09:03 PM Liked: 18
post #11090 of 14416
04-16-2009 | Posts: 6,292
Joined: Dec 2001
Almost forgot ...

Might have mentioned this before, and the KET/WCVN 54 analog sign off reminded me of it again ... I've noticed I have a quite strong Signal on 55 from my South beginning not long after WWRD-LP moved from 55 to 32 last year -- I can detect it with a AGC reading/etc. on my Sony HDTV (and with some receivers-mainly tuner in JVC S-VHS VCR's -- the 1st adjacent channel blow-torch signal in same direction made a mess of WCVN 54 -- Same thing happens with that tuner to WBQC-CA 38 BTW if I aim antenna at WKOI-DT 39 - even though it's different signal modulation involved, it doesn't "look" any different than what the signal on 55 did to WCVN 54) -- Anyway - the signal on 55 is not 8VSB, but not NTSC/analog either -- It's noise-like on a analog TV and I'd guess probably OFDM based --- Given it's on 55 I'm sure that would have to be Quallcom's MediaFlo, but if possible I'd like to know Where the transmitter involved is located and if possible, info on ERP, Antenna/etc, such as the info you can get via TV query for Broadcast stations...

Anyone been able to find info on these Transmitters for MediaFlo anywhere on FCC site ?

Thanks ....
robmadden1's Avatar robmadden1
01:55 AM Liked: 10
post #11091 of 14416
04-17-2009 | Posts: 290
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43 wkoi analog is finally off the air.
robmadden1's Avatar robmadden1
02:02 AM Liked: 10
post #11092 of 14416
04-17-2009 | Posts: 290
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53 analog for a very lontime has not given me normal snow. It has huge black and white zig zaggy lines instead. What could this be?
ThoraX695's Avatar ThoraX695
06:50 PM Liked: 15
post #11093 of 14416
04-17-2009 | Posts: 393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Update: Never mind ... Caught some info on WKOI at 9:30pm, they're saying April 16 (Tonight) ....

W36DG is still broadcasting in analog. Their flash-cut to digital is still good until 10/19/2009.
jimp2244's Avatar jimp2244
07:04 PM Liked: 10
post #11094 of 14416
04-17-2009 | Posts: 1,587
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Sorry I have been busy lately but did want to respond and clarify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terryfoster View Post

This is simply not true.

My original statement was indeed true.

What you say below is also true.
Quote:


It all boils down to commercials using the maximum allowable volume and eliminating any dynamic range. The links below describe what's going on quite well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17229281/

http://www.rd.com/living-healthy/why-are-tv-commercials-so-loud/article96931.html

There are standards for audio levels. Some content producers don't follow them, and other times a local station has their equipment set wrong. Here are some links that explain loudness and dialnorm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialnorm

http://etvcookbook.org/audio/dialnorm.html

http://broadcastengineering.com/audi..._dtv_loudness/


There is also legislation being attempted to "fix the loud commercial problem."

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/76332
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
02:23 PM Liked: 18
post #11095 of 14416
04-18-2009 | Posts: 6,292
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#1). TVGoS digital/WKRC --

Haven't seen any program listings from TVGoS digital via WKRC-DT (using my Cincy DMA Zip - 45042 with DTV Pal DVR) Since about Late Night last Wednesday ...

It looks like the DTV Pal DVR's clock is still set OK from WKRC-DT's TVGoS info, and the TvGuide Logo shows up, but there have been no TVGoS listings present for Any Cincinnati Station since Late Wed/Early thursday .... Also, checked the WKRC TVGoS streams with TSreader, they're still there with the "normal" bandwidth usage .... I've also tried resetting (factory reset/etc) the DTV Pal DVR, no dice ....

However, If I plug in a Dayton DMA zip(If I "moved" my house about 1000 Feet North I'd have a Dayton DMA Zip, LOL), I am still getting TVGoS digital listings(For Dayton stations Only - although there have been/are no listings for WDTN or WRGT)with DTV Pal DVR using the Digital TVGoS from WHIO-DT ...

Don't know if it's an issue specific to DTV Pal DVR , or my "zip code info" or if others might experience this issue as well ...

Of course, up until Last Wednesday, when I was still getting the TVGoS digital listings for Cincy from WKRC, WCET-DT 48.2 still had listings for "World", (not for "create" as it should be since about Dec 2008), and still nothing For KET2/KETKY/HD/ED, and Still nothing for WPTO, WLWT or WXIX or WOTH-LD ...

Also, as I think I'd mentioned in an earlier post, although I was getting TVGoS listings for Both Dayton and Cincinnati stations(with a Cincy DMA zip and apparently with data coming from WKRC) in Early January when I first started using DTV Pal DVR, beginning in Late Jan or so(If I recall correctly), it began "working" only for Dayton stations from WHIO's TVGoS digital streams and with a Dayton DMA zip input, and only for Cincinnati stations from WKRC and with a Cincy Zip input ... Which of course would be fine If I could input two zips with DTV Pal DVR, which I can't with the current firmware ... It did work quite nicely though for Both Cincy+Dayton the first few weeks I had the DTV Pal DVR, and the way it was regarding that before the TVGoS people changed something(and apparently, this change happened in other markets as well) was pretty nice ....

Anyway --- Unless DTV Pal DVR has some issues properly supporting TVGoS digital --- at present at least in this area TVGoS digital seems to have quite a ways to go .... And, I've noticed in many cases, more detailed programming information is available from the PSIP EIT's (thankfully, DTVPal DVR supports guide info via PSIP EIT's as well) ...... When I checked Dayton yesterday for instance, perhaps I did not wait long enough for all the TVGoS guide info to populate(I waited 12 hours) the guide but I did not see ANY detailed program descriptions via TVGoS for the Dayton stations -- The program titles were there out a week for WHIO/WPTD/WKEF/WBDT, but there was no program description for any program I checked .....

----------------------------------------------------------

#2). WSTR-DT MyTV HD Video ---

Anyone else notice that during all MyTV feeds(including during commercials/etc), there is a bit of a black, or "no picture data" area, so to speak, at top ? (no "black area" at sides or bottom)

Such that, although it's encoded at WSTR at 1920x1088 (1920x1080 encoded picture data) --- The MyTV video is apparently being "squeezed" into about 1920x1066 or so with the difference of about about 14 vertical lines of "black area" at the top, filling out the 1920x1080 .... It's difficult to say without being able to examine a broadcast circles/crosshatch pattern, but I think there is some distortion of PAR occuring ... Square pixels should be maintained - a completely filled 1280x720 frame from MyTV should also completely fill 1920x1080 ...

Note this only happens during My TV programming, not during local commercials or Syndicated programming, and also note that it's been going on since they began the conversion of 720p from MyTV to 1080i for Broadcast (about Sepetember 2008) ..... Prior to that time, 16x9 from MyTV Feed at 1280x720 filled the entire 1280x720 pixels (16x9) from WSTR with no "black area" at the top ....

Also, BTW, I haven't checked it out fully and am not sure what is going on ... but, In short, I've noticed it seems there may be some oddities occuring involving film based material and Blended frames(unfortunetly there in some cases from MyTV), regarding blended fields which are occuring in the 1280x720p to 1920x1080i Conversion occuring at WSTR ...
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
02:58 PM Liked: 18
post #11096 of 14416
04-18-2009 | Posts: 6,292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThoraX695 View Post

W36DG is still broadcasting in analog. Their flash-cut to digital is still good until 10/19/2009.

Yes, I noticed they were down a couple of days or so just before 4/16 and wondered if they might be working on the flash-cut, but they came back up sometime 4/16 as I recall ....

I do wonder with WTVQ gone if they might apply for something different than their current digital CP specifies ERP and DA wise ....

Anyway, W20CL Springfield is still up with analog as well, they have a Digital Companion channel CP for 24 ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmadden1 View Post

53 analog for a very lontime has not given me normal snow. It has huge black and white zig zaggy lines instead. What could this be?

Hard to say but based on some of your other posts It sounds to me like it is likely you may be using an amplifier or a "amplfied" antenna where signals are already very strong .... What happens in these sorts of situations is the amplifier (or front-end of receiver) is overloaded by strong signals and IMD (intermodulation distortion) is created on certian channels/frequencies other than the channels/frequencies those signals are actually present .....

Also, On an analog TV and on a adjacent channel, the AFT (automatic fine tuning) will often "wonder up(or down)" into the channel above or below the empty(no local signals present) channel you're tuned to and you'll see "junk" from a transmission (or even IMD)present on the adjacent channel ...

Oftentimes, one won't be able to detect IMD (which=increased noise as seen by the receiver/raising noise level and lowering SNR for the desired signal which is useable by receiver), which will occur on some channels/frequencies and not others. With DTV the increased noise will often just make your signal quality meter readings lower or "bounce around" or cause other problems with reception of certain stations which one might misdiagnose as being caused by other issues ....

Anyway, On analog seeing things such as a noisy picture from WXIX 19 show up on say, Channel 54 is a sure sign you have "overload" issues ....

Note that strong FM broadcast band signals(or any sort of strong signal in the range of frequencies your antenna is picking up or your amplifier is amplifying) can also easily overload amps as well .. Which is why many amps include switchable FM traps .... FM signals (even those that aren't "really there" on the frequency involved except as IMD created in an overloaded amp or receiver, and also including the FM audio used by analog TV stations - which is at upper end of the each 6MHZ channel) will show up as diagonal "squiggly lines" on analog ...
robmadden1's Avatar robmadden1
11:36 AM Liked: 10
post #11097 of 14416
04-19-2009 | Posts: 290
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The amp on the antenna is at level one basically off.
Nitewatchman's Avatar Nitewatchman
01:22 PM Liked: 18
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Adjustable Gain amps typically increase amount of noise when you set it at lower settings/reduce output gain .... In other words, setting it at lower settings doesn't usually change how much amp is being overloaded by nearby strong signals ... Unless the equipment(such as amplfied antenna) has a specific setting to allow you to turn off the amp and bypass the amp's circuitry, You can't however simply turn off/disconnect power to a in-line amplifier or "amplified" antenna in most cases, because the unpowered circuitry in the amp will attenuate signals MUCH more than if you were not using an amp at all.

Anyway, As long as it is not causing problems with reception of the stations you want to watch --- which is sometimes difficult to tell, especially with DTV as we can't see such impairments/increased noise on screen as we can with analog --- this sort of thing isn't really a problem(it won't "damage" your equipment/etc) -- And there are times when using an amp is going to help even though it(or receiver front end due to the stronger signals via the amp) is being overloaded to some extent+creating IMD products effecting certian frequencies as well as probably operating with reduced output - It's usually desired reception of weaker signals on certian frequencies(which vary depending upon where on the dial the stronger signals that are overloading things are) which are effected the most by this sort of thing -- but be careful interpeting what you see on channels where there are no local stations, as it can often be "junk"/IMD created within your overloaded equipment rather than something that is actually being transmitted on any given frequency (Or again - even without "overload", AFT on your analog TV wondering up into portions of channel above or below the one you are "tuned" to) ...
druber's Avatar druber
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post #11099 of 14416
04-19-2009 | Posts: 178
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Anyone have issues with their recording of "Sit Down, Shut Up" on WXIX tonight? Recording to my Mac tonight with EyeTV, trying to edit the video in MPEG Streamclip, which is my normal process, yields audio but no video. (White screen) EyeTV is able to play back the file fine. Same issue with the last couple recordings of "Fringe". Anyone else noticing a difference, or has my setup gone haywire?
Bubster's Avatar Bubster
08:22 AM Liked: 11
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04-24-2009 | Posts: 485
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Quote:


Location: East Africa



druber: Just be glad you get WXIX that far away at all. You must, however, share with us what type of antenna you use though.

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