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post #13051 of 14359 Old 10-11-2010, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

WKRC stat muxes their main (12-1) and secondary (12-2) channels. Without getting too technical, that means that the bitrate varies depending on how much is "needed" for motion, complex scenes, etc. Typically I see 12-1 at around 10-12mbps, but I've seen it go down to 8mbps, especially during daytime programming. Don't often see it higher than 14-15mbps. WLWT on the other hand, gives 5-1 a constant 16.5-17mbps. WCPO and WXIX are not good comparisons because they broadcast in 720p (versus 1080i that WLWT and WKRC use), which requires less bandwidth. An OTA channel is little over 19mbps total, but remember some of that is required for audio, as well as program info (PSIP data) and other things. Any "room" left over in the that 19mbps is transmitted as "null" (unused) bits.

DirecTV is going to take the same thing that we get OTA and re-compress it to mpeg4 at a lower bitrate (they have a lot of channels to fit on their satellites). mpeg4 does a good job but what this means is that DirecTV will not look as good as OTA.

Very interesting, thanks. Ultimately I'm trying to figure out if I should continue to be fiddling with my TV settings (new Samsung PN58C8000) or just know that the artifacts stem from WKRC. It is daytime that I notice those artifacts- football games. Do you think that lower bandwidth is my issue?

Also, I did flip back and fourth between 12-1 OTA and 12 via DirectTV and my eye wasn't able to discern any difference in PQ or in the degree of motion artifacts. But it is helpful to know that the re-compression issue is at play.
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post #13052 of 14359 Old 10-11-2010, 04:29 PM
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Wouldn't it be nice ( I read this on here somewhere but do not know what thread or me having wishful thinking) IF/When they mount 25 WKRP RTV etc. on the Tower with the new RF-22 they could lower or side mount RF-10 and the FCC or whoever is the dictator on it. And 25 could use RF-10 and have more Power and reach out further that what power it is limited to now.I really like RTV but only get it Rarely do to the Low Power Issues. And I am about 15 Miles South Easterly Fashion of Maysville. And I get 5-9-12-64 Good. Rarely they give me any problems. Sometimes 19 is a problem.
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post #13053 of 14359 Old 10-12-2010, 10:07 AM
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Does anyone know when low power ch.36 (daystar) is going on air? Are the tower crews working on ch.9 antenna also going to be installing a side mount antenna on channel 5's tower (for ch.36) while they are in town?
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post #13054 of 14359 Old 10-12-2010, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloonfanatic View Post

Does anyone know when low power ch.36 (daystar) is going on air? Are the tower crews working on ch.9 antenna also going to be installing a side mount antenna on channel 5's tower (for ch.36) while they are in town?

That would be nice! And a much cleaner process than WCPO's conversion since RF 36 would be a new installation on the WLWT tower.

I believe the rumor was that WOTH would install their new transmitter and antenna for RF 20 when WCPO switched to RF 22. Since they're close to each other in frequency, they would have to get their emissions masks set up so they wouldn't interfere with each others' signals.
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post #13055 of 14359 Old 10-13-2010, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItzMe View Post

Very interesting, thanks. Ultimately I'm trying to figure out if I should continue to be fiddling with my TV settings (new Samsung PN58C8000) or just know that the artifacts stem from WKRC. It is daytime that I notice those artifacts- football games. Do you think that lower bandwidth is my issue?

Also, I did flip back and fourth between 12-1 OTA and 12 via DirectTV and my eye wasn't able to discern any difference in PQ or in the degree of motion artifacts. But it is helpful to know that the re-compression issue is at play.

If you're seeing artifacting (especially and specifically macroblocking on 1080i) for WKRC, it's definitely their limited bandwidth. The difference between a Bengals (or any NFL) game on CBS via WKRC and Sunday Night Football on NBC is huge. There will always be some artifacting and macroblocking, but WKRC can look quite bad fairly often. I would say to watch CBS via WHIO (7-1) Dayton, but they are only marginally better. However, they DO have Dolby Digital 5.1 sound (like just about every other station in this market other than WKRC).

When bandwidth is limited, it shows itself slightly differently with mpeg4 versus mpeg2. With mpeg2 you will notice more artifacting and macroblocking. Specifically I notice macroblocking ("square blocks" showing up on the screen) on 1080i channels and what I call jpeg artifacting (look at the edges of objects is the best example I can give) on 720p channels.

With mpeg4, it does a better job of dealing with limited bandwidth without the artifacts/macroblocking showing up as much. What does happen though is detail is lost. This is often less noticeable to the viewer as the image looks smooth, however do a close comparison you will see that detail is indeed lost.

My main point with that was that DirecTV is taking the already bit starved WKRC stream and then compressing it again which results in further loss of detail. The funny (?) part is, this loss of detail can in some cases make the macroblocking less obvious, as it can have a "smoothing" or "blurring" effect on the image causing those macroblock lines to be less noticeable.

I'd prefer my TV to be as detailed as possible, and with as little artifacting/macroblocking as possible though!

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #13056 of 14359 Old 10-13-2010, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

If you're seeing artifacting (especially and specifically macroblocking on 1080i) for WKRC, it's definitely their limited bandwidth. The difference between a Bengals (or any NFL) game on CBS via WKRC and Sunday Night Football on NBC is huge. There will always be some artifacting and macroblocking, but WKRC can look quite bad fairly often. I would say to watch CBS via WHIO (7-1) Dayton, but they are only marginally better. However, they DO have Dolby Digital 5.1 sound (like just about every other station in this market other than WKRC).

When bandwidth is limited, it shows itself slightly differently with mpeg4 versus mpeg2. With mpeg2 you will notice more artifacting and macroblocking. Specifically I notice macroblocking ("square blocks" showing up on the screen) on 1080i channels and what I call jpeg artifacting (look at the edges of objects is the best example I can give) on 720p channels.

With mpeg4, it does a better job of dealing with limited bandwidth without the artifacts/macroblocking showing up as much. What does happen though is detail is lost. This is often less noticeable to the viewer as the image looks smooth, however do a close comparison you will see that detail is indeed lost.

My main point with that was that DirecTV is taking the already bit starved WKRC stream and then compressing it again which results in further loss of detail. The funny (?) part is, this loss of detail can in some cases make the macroblocking less obvious, as it can have a "smoothing" or "blurring" effect on the image causing those macroblock lines to be less noticeable.

I'd prefer my TV to be as detailed as possible, and with as little artifacting/macroblocking as possible though!

That's very informative, thanks! Having a new plasma panel, at first I was worried that it was inferior. Then I realized the artifacts were only happening on channel 12 (OTA and DirecTV). Then I suspected the issues you describe. While I think I can get WHIO through the TV itself, I can't will my AM-21 DirecTV tuner and DVR. I always time shift football a little. So I'm stuck with WKRC. I hope someday they give us more juice.

BTW, it was fun to revisit this thread. I was active on this thread back in 2004! When you guys helped me configure our first HD setup!
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post #13057 of 14359 Old 10-14-2010, 07:47 PM
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wkrc is really bitstarving 12-1 .. I have yet to see it go above 13.75 mb/s most of the time its around 11-12
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post #13058 of 14359 Old 10-14-2010, 10:41 PM
 
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I don't watch CBS often but when I do (football primarily) I don't have any issue with PQ. My issue is the audio is STILL DD 2.0 instead of the 5.1 standard EVERY major Cinti & Dayton channels broadcast.
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post #13059 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 04:37 AM
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The NFL games on Sunday is where I notice it the most. WKRC should be shamed into fixing this situation.
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post #13060 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 05:11 AM
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No issue with KRC's PQ for me as I don't watch much football, but their audio is definitely lacking quality when my system tries to apply DD-PLII surround. It just sounds awful, like they're talking thru a tin can. I can force DTS-NEO which adds some depth (a couple cable channels behave the same way - don't recall which ones) but still not up to the sound quality of most other channels.

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post #13061 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 05:18 AM
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Anything with a high amount of motion breaks up into tiny squares pretty easily on WKRC, That's where I notice it the most.
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post #13062 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItzMe View Post

That's very informative, thanks! Having a new plasma panel, at first I was worried that it was inferior.

If anything, the new plasma is just able to show detail that your previous set was not. When you have a high quality display it will show a lot more detail, and in some cases that detail is the defects in the picture quality!

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Anything with a high amount of motion breaks up into tiny squares pretty easily on WKRC, That's where I notice it the most.

Bit starved!!!

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #13063 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 06:42 AM
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So you're saying my WKRC artifacts are a feature, not a bug. Hmmmm.

Has anyone tactfully confronted WKRC with this issue and bandwidth stats?
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post #13064 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItzMe View Post

Has anyone tactfully confronted WKRC with this issue and bandwidth stats?

I'm guessing there's not much they can do about the video bandwidth if they're going to continue to broadcast CW programming as well. Fixed allocation prevents either channel from instantaneous degradation of the signal from the other. WLW just has the weather on their sideband, which is not very demanding, and both WCPO and WXIX are 720p so have lower bandwidth requirements. My primary gripe is KRC's audio quality, or lack thereof.

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post #13065 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 10:41 AM
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They know about it and have for years - Hank who was their chief engineer even said they know and wont do anything about it as its $$ that rules the day. Their take is the CW is worth it because I read somtheing somewhere that cincw is the #1 cw affiliate in the country.

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So you're saying my WKRC artifacts are a feature, not a bug. Hmmmm.

Has anyone tactfully confronted WKRC with this issue and bandwidth stats?

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post #13066 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 10:47 AM
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Seems like WKRC's problem will only get more complaints as folks buy better TVs.
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post #13067 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 11:03 AM
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Seems like WKRC's problem will only get more complaints as folks buy better TVs.

Not really. You gotta realize 90% of people who buy a HDTV dont have a clue about the way it works and simply hook it up and watch SD material unwittingly.

And they like it.
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post #13068 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 01:49 PM
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Their take is the CW is worth it because I read somtheing somewhere that cincw is the #1 cw affiliate in the country.

Really? A standard definition, subchannel version of the CW?
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post #13069 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 02:43 PM
 
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Really? A standard definition, subchannel version of the CW?

I must agree. The Dayton CW has MUCH better programming IMHO. And it is in HD/5.1...
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post #13070 of 14359 Old 10-15-2010, 02:50 PM
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WBDT is the #1 CW affiliate in the country last I checked.

-----------
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post #13071 of 14359 Old 10-16-2010, 04:45 PM
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WBDT is the #1 CW affiliate in the country last I checked.

Correct!! NOT WKRC

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #13072 of 14359 Old 10-16-2010, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post

, but their audio is definitely lacking quality .

For one thing(besides the nastiness with the audio levels from WKRC), It's a 192Kb/s AC-3 (DD) Stream .... Has been for almost a year, I believe the change occured around the time they replaced their HD video encoder ...Before that it was 384Kb/s (and was generally fine)...

384Kb/s is more common for "high quality" program services (DD 2.0 or 5.1 --- WBDT and Fox HD actually use 448Kb/s ) .....

BTW, WSTR 64.1 also recently switched from 384kb/s AC-3 stream to 192Kb/s ...

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post #13073 of 14359 Old 10-16-2010, 08:38 PM
 
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The kb's aren't the issue. The quality sounds just fine (at least on my Denon AVR789 w/Audyssey enabled) even in 2.0 DD. But it would sound better as 5.1. THAT is my issue. It's like the PQ. PQ here on my 56" Toshiba DLP looks every bit as good as WHIO's PQ. The difference lies in the audio as WHIO is 5.1 DD compared to WKRC.

As a side note, nice to see you post again Jeff. Been awhile.
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post #13074 of 14359 Old 10-16-2010, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

The quality sounds just fine (at least on my Denon AVR789 w/Audyssey enabled) even in 2.0 DD.

Compare with a pair of good headphones to WHIO 7.1 (downmixed to 2.0 of course), during (the same) CBS HD program .....

Maybe something has changed since the last time I did that(Which was months ago), but at that time, the difference(and not just the audio levels) was quite noticable ... Speaking in Generalizations --- What I noticed in that comparison was similiar to the difference between say, FM Radio(WKRC) and Vinyl LP (WHIO -- Without the scracthes of course) ..... Or ... if you like, Cassette Tape (WKRC) vs. say, Vinyl LP (WHIO) or CD ...

Never noticed that when WKRC was sending a 384Kb/s stream (Was still DD 2.0), .... Whether or not the bitrate difference is the only factor involved in the difference, I don't know ....

Quote:


But it would sound better as 5.1.

on the LFE, LR, RR, and Center channels, Obviously. Still, with PLII Surround decoding ---- Matrix Surround, obviously NOT as good as Discrete 5.1 surround (from a "real" 5.1 source), WKRC's DD 2.0 with PLII (again, when they were sending 384Kb/s stream) USED to sound quite good ....
In fact, If listening on a 2 channel system(w/o PLII, obviously), it was a bit BETTER quality wise than WHIO ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

The kb's aren't the issue.

Per ATSC recommendations, 192Kb/s(Kilobits per second) is supposed to work well for 2 channel stereo for a Main audio service. And it does seem to, more or less for say, the audio for most SD services --- (SD "subchannels" in other words) in the area, most of which are using 192 Kb/s streams .... Last I checked, in this area, currently, only WSTR+WKRC use anything less than 384Kb/s for Audio for a 720p or 1080i Program Service (DD 2.0 or 5.1) ...

But, it is lossy compression, I don't know in terms of graphs and numbers what is lost in terms of Frequency response and dynamic range at 192Kb/s vs 384Kb/s (for DD 2.0), all I know is I noticed a decrease in quality from WKRC's (12.1) Audio about a year ago (Well, It changed a little less than a year ago, don't recall exactly when), and at the same time also noticed their audio stream had changed from 384Kb/s to 192 Kb/s ...

Oh ... BTW, WPTD and WPTO should probably offer good 384Kb/s vs 192 Kb/s DD 2.0 comparisons as well :

WPTO 14.1 - DD 2.0, 384 Kb/s - 14.5 -- DD 2.0, 192 Kb/s (Same programming, 14.1 = 1080i, 14.5 = 480i)

WPTD 16.1 - DD 2.0, 384 KB/s -- 16.5 -- DD 2.0, 192 kb/s (Same programming, 16.1 = 1080i, 16.5 = 480i)

And, It's DD 5.1 vs DD 2.0, but there's also WDTN :

WDTN 2.1 - DD 5.1 - 448 Kb/s -- WDTN 2.2 -- DD 2.0, 192 KB's .. (Same Programming, 2.1=1080i, 2.2 = 480i )


---------

I'm sure they're likely to be doing that for a reason -- i.e. putting the higher quality audio with the Higher quality (HD) Video service ......

Jeff
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post #13075 of 14359 Old 10-17-2010, 08:06 AM
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FYI, this weekend appears to be one where having an OTA antenna might get you an extra game according to my TitanTV listings. Cincy CBS is carrying the Ravens versus the Pats at 1pm and Dayton is showing the Browns versus the Steelers.

Luckily, for me, enough leaves have dropped that I once again get good reception from the Dayton OTA signals.

Woohoo!
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post #13076 of 14359 Old 10-17-2010, 01:24 PM
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Anyone else having audio problems with the Raven's game on WKRC? Getting low volume and dropouts. Other channels are fine, this is on DirecTV. I'm used to the normal dropouts, but this is overall worse.
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post #13077 of 14359 Old 10-17-2010, 01:41 PM
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Only watched the 4th quarter and OT and was fine here on TWC.
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post #13078 of 14359 Old 10-17-2010, 04:38 PM
 
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Too busy today to see any games. But the 1st quarter and the audio was great here OTA. Waiting on the Colts/Skins game now.
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post #13079 of 14359 Old 10-18-2010, 06:08 AM
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I apologize in advance if this information is already known here...My Mother called last week to inform me her TV bit the dust. I went and bought her a Panny Viera. She is in Middletown, TWC. Hooked it up, did a channel scan and was surprised that all the Dayton HD's appeared to be on in QAM in addition to the Cincinnati HD's. This may prove beneficial, especially this time of year with all the football! Now to get her to learn the locations of the clear QAM channels...



This isn't true. I took a look this weekend. The Dayton channels are on in SD only. Sorry for posting incorrect information.
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post #13080 of 14359 Old 10-18-2010, 09:00 AM
 
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Well, if Dayton clear QAM then likely yes, it is SD. However if you get TW HD service, they should be in HD, at least I would think so anyway.
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