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post #14791 of 14807 Old 01-13-2016, 01:50 PM
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12-3 is up and running now. It was already on the Tivo, just had to select the channel box. It will probably be a while before the program guide updates.

Speakers: Klipsch RF-7II(2), RC-64II, RS-62II(2), RP-160M(2), Velodyne HGS-15, HSU VTF-15H, Atlantic Technology IC-6-OBA(4)
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post #14792 of 14807 Old 01-13-2016, 03:36 PM
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12.3 is live! In 480i 16:9... squished vertically for this SIUE at APSU game. There's a "WKRC-3" watermark in the upper-right hand corner in the black bar. Hopefully they'll fix the aspect ratio soon!
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post #14793 of 14807 Old 01-13-2016, 03:38 PM
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can definately tell they arn't giving the channel much bandwidth. fast motion scenes look terrible on the 12" tv in the kitchen. I can't even imagine what it looks like on my 40" sony.
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post #14794 of 14807 Old 01-13-2016, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Balloonfanatic View Post
can definately tell they arn't giving the channel much bandwidth. fast motion scenes look terrible on the 12" tv in the kitchen. I can't even imagine what it looks like on my 40" sony.
The Picture is definitely SD quality but it's better than what I thought it was going to be. I think they are running variable bandwidth so depending on what's running on the main channel then the other two sub channels are allocated more or less bandwidth.

-----------
Robert

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post #14795 of 14807 Old 01-13-2016, 05:56 PM
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Happy New Year....I'm a fan of ASN nothing like a college sports network for small schools tapping into the Cincinnati market
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post #14796 of 14807 Old 01-27-2016, 09:08 AM
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Ch. 2 in Dayton is running commercials announcing the Justice Channel is coming monday to ch. 2-3.
luvmyhdtv likes this.

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post #14797 of 14807 Old 01-30-2016, 11:12 PM
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12.3 is live! In 480i 16:9... squished vertically for this SIUE at APSU game. There's a "WKRC-3" watermark in the upper-right hand corner in the black bar. Hopefully they'll fix the aspect ratio soon!
12.3 and 9.3 are both still unwatchable. I wish the stations would fix the stretch-o-vision.
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post #14798 of 14807 Old 02-03-2016, 02:44 PM
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12.3 and 9.3 are both still unwatchable. I wish the stations would fix the stretch-o-vision.
I talked the chief engineer at channel 9 yesterday about the issue you are also experiencing with 9.3.

he narrowed it down to my tivo dvr.
Channel 9.3 and 12.3 are fine in 4 x 3 format (not stretched) if I use the tv's tuner.

he suggested I check the video output settings and see if that fixes my problem.

the settings for a hdtv should be for 16 x 9 output with bars on the side. that setting should allow the non hi def.channels like 9.3 to show in 4 x3 in the center of the screen and not be stretched.

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post #14799 of 14807 Old 02-05-2016, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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LOL, although its way past being funny at this point ...... MPEG2 720(or 704)x480 SD video can be flagged as 16x9 or 4x3. WCPO is sending what is actually 4x3 video improperly flagged as 16x9 on 9.3 ....

Similar to DVD players(and any commerical DVD I've ever seen since what -----... 1999? ---- has had this "flag" set correctly for the included content) which "adjust" the video signal(such as add letterboxing for a 4x3 set for 16x9 so called "anamorphic" video) --- according to a menu setup option you set regarding whether your display device is 4x3 or 16x9 aspect ratio ----- most modern TV's /etc have a "set by program"(or called something similar/etc) feature which displays content in its proper aspect ratio on the TV screen AS LONG AS THE PROVIDER(In this case broadcast station) ENCODES THE PROPER MPEG2 Metadata (i.e. "flag- technically an "MPEG2 Descriptor") as 4x3 or 16x9 depending on the source video .....


WKRC 12.3 is the same story at present(4x3 video flagged as 16x9)--- It seems a little "different" because of the letterbox bars they are adding(which are encoded picture information - that's what makes it "really" 4x3 currently), not something that is added by your tv .....Or to look at it another way If the letterboxing was gone, it would be "proper" 16x9 currently, as it is whenever WKEF runs ASN programming on one of their subs ....

The other area Sinclair operated stations send a 16x9 flag on their SD subchannels, but manage to do it correctly when what is 4x3 content is airing by inserting(i.e. "squeezing in") pillarbars(which is also encoded picture information in this case) on the sides ... this allows them to run actual 16x9 content(properly and without letterboxing) on those channels properly as long as they "remove" the pillarbars during the actual 16x9 content - of course, this is likely done automatically ......

update: Then there is WDYC 36.2 sending 16x9 video flagged as 4x3 ... thus, tv's with a "set by program" feature will "squeeze" in pillarbars on the sides, making for distorted video .....

And amazingly, problems with this very simple issue are not limited to local broadcast TV stations .. for example Dish Network (SD) channels 279 and 280 are "actual" 16x9 SD video(280 has been like that for several years)with no letterboxing added -- Try displaying that properly with say a Dish 311 receiver and a 4x3 TV!!!(on a 16x9 TV all one has to do is "stretch it" to fit the entire screen - same deal with WDYC broadcast station 36.2 mentioned above) ..... I'm not sure how many Dish subs cares about SD RT or CCTV English, but .....

Jeff

Last edited by Nitewatchman; 02-05-2016 at 09:20 PM. Reason: update as noted/improved spelling and formatting
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post #14800 of 14807 Old 02-08-2016, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post
LOL, although its way past being funny at this point ...... MPEG2 720(or 704)x480 SD video can be flagged as 16x9 or 4x3. WCPO is sending what is actually 4x3 video improperly flagged as 16x9 on 9.3 ....

Similar to DVD players(and any commerical DVD I've ever seen since what -----... 1999? ---- has had this "flag" set correctly for the included content) which "adjust" the video signal(such as add letterboxing for a 4x3 set for 16x9 so called "anamorphic" video) --- according to a menu setup option you set regarding whether your display device is 4x3 or 16x9 aspect ratio ----- most modern TV's /etc have a "set by program"(or called something similar/etc) feature which displays content in its proper aspect ratio on the TV screen AS LONG AS THE PROVIDER(In this case broadcast station) ENCODES THE PROPER MPEG2 Metadata (i.e. "flag- technically an "MPEG2 Descriptor") as 4x3 or 16x9 depending on the source video .....


WKRC 12.3 is the same story at present(4x3 video flagged as 16x9)--- It seems a little "different" because of the letterbox bars they are adding(which are encoded picture information - that's what makes it "really" 4x3 currently), not something that is added by your tv .....Or to look at it another way If the letterboxing was gone, it would be "proper" 16x9 currently, as it is whenever WKEF runs ASN programming on one of their subs ....

The other area Sinclair operated stations send a 16x9 flag on their SD subchannels, but manage to do it correctly when what is 4x3 content is airing by inserting(i.e. "squeezing in") pillarbars(which is also encoded picture information in this case) on the sides ... this allows them to run actual 16x9 content(properly and without letterboxing) on those channels properly as long as they "remove" the pillarbars during the actual 16x9 content - of course, this is likely done automatically ......

update: Then there is WDYC 36.2 sending 16x9 video flagged as 4x3 ... thus, tv's with a "set by program" feature will "squeeze" in pillarbars on the sides, making for distorted video .....

And amazingly, problems with this very simple issue are not limited to local broadcast TV stations .. for example Dish Network (SD) channels 279 and 280 are "actual" 16x9 SD video(280 has been like that for several years)with no letterboxing added -- Try displaying that properly with say a Dish 311 receiver and a 4x3 TV!!!(on a 16x9 TV all one has to do is "stretch it" to fit the entire screen - same deal with WDYC broadcast station 36.2 mentioned above) ..... I'm not sure how many Dish subs cares about SD RT or CCTV English, but .....
I just had a issue with SOL on 25.6 got complaint about the graphics, after checking into it the up-link is 544X480 we were doing 704X480 and the encoder was have a issue with the very bad graphics they do about 80% white with no edge, our encoder was trying to "make-up" data, thus you could see artifacts around the graphics.
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post #14801 of 14807 Old 02-08-2016, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I just had a issue with SOL on 25.6 got complaint about the graphics, after checking into it the up-link is 544X480 ....
Since you brought it up --- That's actually another one Dish (ch 257 - they call it SBN) has 16x9 video(without encoded letterboxed bars) which provides distorted video on at least some SD dish receivers (such as 311 - which have no available menu option to set user display's aspect ratio) that there is No way to 'fix" if someone is using it with a 4x3 TV ..... Weather nation(WN)(ch 215) and Al Jazzera America (ch 216 however long it lasts) are two more .... It's kind of odd, because all the "major" channels on dish that are 16x9 (or mostly so) have encoded letterbox bars .....

anyway -- Those odd horizontal resolutions can be several different resolutions that aren't necessarily commonly used/known (with MPEG2 have to be MOD 16/dividable by 16 though If I recall correctly, involving macroblock size/etc), but, they're not "ATSC Compliant" (Only 720x480,704x480, 640x480 for SD) .... the PAR (Pixel aspect ratio) is just different, I'm not sure how "any given" MPEG2 decoder(or other equipment for transcoding/etc) would handle some of those, though ... I do know that the DBS sat providers use some of them .....

I was thinking that maybe the situation on 12.3/wkrc could possibly involve receiver(possibly with AR conversion settings on it/etc) they might use to pick up that ASN feed ... But, I'm not sure where that's done/etc, given I know Sinclair does a lot of stuff(or did, last time I'd heard) with their area stations from columbus .....

If they were to get rid of the letterbox bars though, It would require more bits --- those encoded "black bars" really don't use anything(if the borders "fit" within each macroblock .....



-------------------------

25.5 Heartland audio ----

Anyway, on another note --- Elliot --- On all of my decoders, WBQC-LD 25.5 Is left channel only audio (one doesn't notice it as much if using a dolby "surround mode" on receiver/etc).... unless it is something going on on my end --- Any chance you can encode either "real"(or "fake" for that matter) 2.0 stereo, or, what would be better than the way it is, just 1 channel monaural ?

I haven't looked at the transport stream with an analyzer in quite a while, as all the equipment I need is packed away/difficult to get to currently(and will be for a long time!) as I'm renovating the rooms where I use that stuff, but I assume it's probably encoded 2.0 at 192Kb/s or similar ....

Thanks,

Update: 12/9 8pm -- Oh -- Haven't really paid any attention before, but notice that 20.5/AMG has left channel only audio as well ...

Jeff

Last edited by Nitewatchman; 02-09-2016 at 05:55 PM. Reason: corrections+12/9 update as noted ...
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post #14802 of 14807 Old 02-09-2016, 02:17 PM
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ch. 9-3 corrected their stretch issue.

now 12-3 needs to change their encoder settings to fix their stretching issue.
my cheaper tv and tivo will not allow me to adjust the format on 12-3 but I can adjust it on my sony hdtv. this narrows it down to ch.12-3 encoder settings.

all they need to do is (turn off the auto. resize setting on their encoder ) on 12-3 and have the setting set to 4 x 3 display only.

the auto. resize setting is displaying everything in (stretched 16x9) on some cheaper tv's and series 3, 4 and 5 tivo dvrs. this was happening with cable and ota signals thru my tivos.


ch.12-3 please adjust your encoder settings.

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post #14803 of 14807 Old Today, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post
Since you brought it up --- That's actually another one Dish (ch 257 - they call it SBN) has 16x9 video(without encoded letterboxed bars) which provides distorted video on at least some SD dish receivers (such as 311 - which have no available menu option to set user display's aspect ratio) that there is No way to 'fix" if someone is using it with a 4x3 TV ..... Weather nation(WN)(ch 215) and Al Jazzera America (ch 216 however long it lasts) are two more .... It's kind of odd, because all the "major" channels on dish that are 16x9 (or mostly so) have encoded letterbox bars .....

anyway -- Those odd horizontal resolutions can be several different resolutions that aren't necessarily commonly used/known (with MPEG2 have to be MOD 16/dividable by 16 though If I recall correctly, involving macroblock size/etc), but, they're not "ATSC Compliant" (Only 720x480,704x480, 640x480 for SD) .... the PAR (Pixel aspect ratio) is just different, I'm not sure how "any given" MPEG2 decoder(or other equipment for transcoding/etc) would handle some of those, though ... I do know that the DBS sat providers use some of them .....

I was thinking that maybe the situation on 12.3/wkrc could possibly involve receiver(possibly with AR conversion settings on it/etc) they might use to pick up that ASN feed ... But, I'm not sure where that's done/etc, given I know Sinclair does a lot of stuff(or did, last time I'd heard) with their area stations from columbus .....

If they were to get rid of the letterbox bars though, It would require more bits --- those encoded "black bars" really don't use anything(if the borders "fit" within each macroblock .....



-------------------------

25.5 Heartland audio ----

Anyway, on another note --- Elliot --- On all of my decoders, WBQC-LD 25.5 Is left channel only audio (one doesn't notice it as much if using a dolby "surround mode" on receiver/etc).... unless it is something going on on my end --- Any chance you can encode either "real"(or "fake" for that matter) 2.0 stereo, or, what would be better than the way it is, just 1 channel monaural ?

I haven't looked at the transport stream with an analyzer in quite a while, as all the equipment I need is packed away/difficult to get to currently(and will be for a long time!) as I'm renovating the rooms where I use that stuff, but I assume it's probably encoded 2.0 at 192Kb/s or similar ....

Thanks,

Update: 12/9 8pm -- Oh -- Haven't really paid any attention before, but notice that 20.5/AMG has left channel only audio as well ...
Jeff,
I'll check it out when I'm at the transmitter site. They feed a left and right channel, but most of the stuff in mono, because of it age. All we do is run it thru a limiter/compressor. Also for aspect ratios, that another this Sonlife and SBN are the same feed. it is 544X480 SD the it needs to be stretched to fill a 16X9 screen. We do that in our encoder. There is two ways of putting a 704X480 or like SBN, a 544X480 image into a 16X9 screen is the receiver and the encoder both have setting to do that. Some time the engineer just has to look a the TV's screen, but you can also change the image by adjusting the TV. I set the TV to a default setting and look at image, and cross my finger most viewer can figure out how to use the remotes.

Elliott

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post #14804 of 14807 Old Today, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff,
it is 544X480 SD the it needs to be stretched to fill a 16X9 screen.
If you're viewing on a 16x9 display, yes.

Quote:
We do that in our encoder.

Right, as a 16x9 flag. (MPEG2 descriptor). I've encoded a lot of video myself (including MPEG2 with a sotware encoder), and allways set that flag properly for the material to be encoded. In fact, many TV's display which "flag" (4x3 or 16x9) is sent on every particular subchannel in the OSD info. TSreader(a transport stream analyzer) will show the information as well.

If the viewer is watching on a 4x3 set(such as with one of the coupon eligable STB's), the STB should be "set" by the user for a 4x3 display, it will read the 16x9 flag and add letterbox bars automatically for proper display(or the user could choose some other option, such as "zoom" to fill the screen/etc). -- same thing happens with DVD players/dvd's ...

But regarding Dish network 311 receiver(and SBN on dish network) as I've already posted, that particular dish receiver doesn't "support" anything other than 4x3. You can't have it add letterbox bars to the top and bottom to "squeeze it" into proper aspect ratio, (letterbox bars such as dish adds as encoded picture data at their encoders/etc on most other channels with 16x9 content -- say fox news channel), you need to have it hooked up to a 16x9 display in order to be ABLE to stretch it out properly to fill the screen.... you can't do that if you have the receiver hooked up to a "old fashioned" 4x3 TV set ....

Jeff

Last edited by Nitewatchman; Today at 02:51 PM. Reason: added part about 4x3 set/etc, improved formatting
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post #14805 of 14807 Old Today, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the double posts ....

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Jeff,
..... but you can also change the image by adjusting the TV.
Depends upon the TV/display device/etc. Some don't support "zooming"/squeezing/stretching/etc with certian formats -- such as 16x9(flagged as such) 480i ...

Quote:
I set the TV to a default setting and look at image ...
Yours are all set properly ...for MOST of the content -- for example, sometimes, program providers will send both 4x3 and 16x9 content on their "feed", and not format the 16x9 properly by adding letterbox bars when sending a 4x3 "feed" or "squeezing in pillarbars for 4x3 content when sending a 16x9 "feed" ....) ...

WSTR/WKEF/WRGT's SD subchannels are set up to handle that sort of thing properly (probably through using AFD or similar - you'll sometimes see 16x9 "full screen" commericals for example on a 16x9 set, they add pillarbars for say, the antennaTV content, and allways send the 16x9 flag "setting on encoder" as you put it), but for example, ThinkTV's .4 are not ....

Quote:
and cross my finger most viewer can figure out how to use the remotes.
If the 4x3/16x9 flag (or "encoder setting" as you call it) is set properly for the content, there is no need for the viewer to NEED to do anything with their remote (other than to change the channel when they see distorted pictures when that flag is not set properly, or when school closings/etc are 'squeezed in") in order for non-distorted pictures to result....

I can easily "fix" what WKRC is doing on 12.3 with the remote, that's not the point. the point is that THEY are doing it wrong ... It should be "set" (flagged) as 4x3, as it is now, or they need to remove the letterbox bars they are sending (and keep the 16x9 setting "on their encoder") .....

Update : If broadcasters can't figure out these simple issues (and figure out how to handle it correctly - and I don't mean just doing it in a way that "works out fine" for their viewers on cable, or however the cable headend wants it/etc), how are they going to handle all the "goodies" that may come with ATSC 3.0? ....

Jeff

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post #14806 of 14807 Old Today, 03:23 PM
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If you're viewing on a 16x9 display, yes.




Right, as a 16x9 flag. (MPEG2 descriptor). I've encoded a lot of video myself (including MPEG2 with a sotware encoder), and allways set that flag properly for the material to be encoded. In fact, many TV's display which "flag" (4x3 or 16x9) is sent on every particular subchannel in the OSD info. TSreader(a transport stream analyzer) will show the information as well.

If the viewer is watching on a 4x3 set(such as with one of the coupon eligable STB's), the STB should be "set" by the user for a 4x3 display, it will read the 16x9 flag and add letterbox bars automatically for proper display(or the user could choose some other option, such as "zoom" to fill the screen/etc). -- same thing happens with DVD players/dvd's ...

But regarding Dish network 311 receiver(and SBN on dish network) as I've already posted, that particular dish receiver doesn't "support" anything other than 4x3. You can't have it add letterbox bars to the top and bottom to "squeeze it" into proper aspect ratio, (letterbox bars such as dish adds as encoded picture data at their encoders/etc on most other channels with 16x9 content -- say fox news channel), you need to have it hooked up to a 16x9 display in order to be ABLE to stretch it out properly to fill the screen.... you can't do that if you have the receiver hooked up to a "old fashioned" 4x3 TV set ....
Yes, that is what is being on to SBN on our channel, we are changing the satellite feed from a Ku band with limited bandwidth to a C band feed with a new receiver, just waiting to get it authorized. Their head engineer told me when we added the and had the issue with it image being stretch too tall, maybe Dish didn't get the memo. A lot of sub-channel are not on the engineering staffs mind, most are just pass thru, hook up a satellite receiver to a encoder...done. FYI we are also add Newsmax on from 5pm to 10pm the "live" shows on channel 20.5. It is feed in HD 16x9 and we will broadcast it in 16X9 SD on the channel. So it will need on tweaking, just set the encoder.

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post #14807 of 14807 Old Today, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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A lot of sub-channel are not on the engineering staffs mind, most are just pass thru, hook up a satellite receiver to a encoder...done.
That's pretty similar to how digital TV/HD overall was handled by many stations for many years as well ....

It's just amazing to me that some aren't more interested in the product they are providing ...

.... I get the same sort of feeling from that sort of thing as it pertains to our airwaves as I do to watching the national debt clock tick higher and higher .....

I've also wondered if the recent adding of lots of SD subchannels lately might have something to do with making sure there is no room for any "channel sharing" ......

Quote:
FYI we are also add Newsmax on from 5pm to 10pm the "live" shows on channel 20.5. .
Sounds good ... If only FNC would go OTA (or "al a carte" streaming option for that matter) --- the number of "cord-cutters" would likely skyrocket

speaking of newsmax .. When Dish first added SD (ch 223) Newsmax -- they also sent it for a time without squeezing/adding in the letterbox bars ... but, I'd bet someone actually noticed that, because unlike what has been the case with SBN, RT, WN/etc, it wasn't long before they did add the letterboxing ....

Jeff

Last edited by Nitewatchman; Today at 04:10 PM. Reason: added some stuff
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