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post #31 of 3748 Old 09-16-2004, 10:02 AM
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Well I went round and round with the engineer at WNIT and got nowhere with them understanding why I wanted them to send the information that they were really channel 34. My Tivo guide is practically useless since all recording for the channel has to be done manually. The engineer wrote me the following:

Your equipment is working correctly. Our digital channel assignment for WNIT-DT is channel 35. Accordingly, our HD feed (PBS HD) is branded as 35-1 and our SD feed (simulcast of WNIT analog) is branded as 35-2. This assists viewers in telling whether they are seeing our channel 34 feed or our simulcasted chanel 35 feed.


IMHO this doesn't assist viewers in anything. How does labeling one channel 35-1 and 35-2 differ from 34-1 and 34-2????

Anybody have any word as to when WBND might get us ABC HD?
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post #32 of 3748 Old 09-16-2004, 11:34 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by idttywlm IMHO this doesn't assist viewers in anything. How does labeling one channel 35-1 and 35-2 differ from 34-1 and 34-2????

Excellent question! Does he know that the concept of subchannels with PSIP is that on many tuners 34-0 would cause them to tune the analog signal, and 34-1 would tune in the digital signal? Apparently having some viewers tune 34 while others tune 35-n is less confusing, in his mind, than everyone (analog or digital) using 34. Wow. So much for branding.

Well, at least he's not covering for not going through the work of adding PSIP information. I examined the WNIT-HD stream during the last DX opening and found a wealth of PAT/PMT/TVCT info:

Channel 35-1
Service Name: WNIT-HD
Channel number: 35.1
Extended Channel Name: WNIT High Definition
Video PIDs: 0x0011 (15 Mbps, 1080i, 29.97fps, 16:9)
Audio PIDs: 0x0014 (English, 384 kbps, 2.0 channels)

Channel 35-2
Service Name: WNIT-SD
Channel number: 35.2
Extended Channel Name: WNIT Std. Definition
Video PIDs: 0x0021 (4 Mbps, 480i, 29.97fps, 4:3)
Audio PIDs: 0x0024 (English, 192 kbps, 2.0 channels)
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post #33 of 3748 Old 09-20-2004, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I just got an email from WNIT this morning and they said due to recent rule changes at the FCC they were changing the PSIP to 34.1 and 34.2 to match their analog channel numbers.

I haven't read the FCC release on low power digitals, but I look forward to having ABC57 and WB25 in ATSC.

BTW: Echostar (Dish Network) is carrying 22.2 on their service as a local "ESBT". DirecTV is not carrying the station.

JL
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post #34 of 3748 Old 09-20-2004, 01:17 PM
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"Recent rule changes..." ha ha... That's funny.

Thanks for the info.

What strikes me funny is that it has always been an ATSC guideline to have the DTV channel number equal the original analog channel number. Now that the FCC basically just reiterated this in a Report and Order for the DTV transition, it's being viewed as a "rule change."

Perhaps the R&O will coerce WCIU-DT Chicago to stop using 1-1 and 1-2, and start using 26-1 and 23-1 for their subchannels. It would also be nice of a couple of the other stations devoid of PSIP info would begin sending it.
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post #35 of 3748 Old 09-20-2004, 02:07 PM
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Perhaps the "rules changes" were all the complaints about the illogical reasoning for the channel 35-1 and 35-2 tags. Helps save face I guess. Anyway I'm glad it will change. Now if WSJV can get their Fox broadcast to work with HD on the football games. The engineer, Mr. Gooding said they are short one piece of gear from Fox and hope to receive and install it in the next couple days. He said they were trying to work around it but I didn't get the bears game in HD even though my datastream said it was 720p. For those with Tivo HD receivers pressing Select-Play-Select-InstantReplay_Select while watching a program shows the data stream info at the bottom of the screen ... Pressing the same sequence of buttons while at the Directv main screen (pressing tivo button) will have it disappear although I've had to do it several times to make it work.

Jeff
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post #36 of 3748 Old 10-08-2004, 07:17 PM
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Is WSJV (FOX) in HD yet in South Bend?
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post #37 of 3748 Old 10-14-2004, 03:30 PM
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Yes the Fox affiliate is now up and running. Took a little while but the baseball and football look nice.
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post #38 of 3748 Old 10-16-2004, 06:34 AM
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Is anybody getting HD on Comcast in South Bend area? I'm wondering what channels are on, and if any are unscrambled.

Al
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post #39 of 3748 Old 10-26-2004, 10:45 AM
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Any one else having trouble with WSBT 22-1, could not watch the colts game on sunday, kept breaking up and then even when the picture came on it didn't seem to be in HDTV
Bob
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post #40 of 3748 Old 10-29-2004, 08:39 AM
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Quote:


Any one else having trouble with WSBT 22-1, could not watch the colts game on sunday, kept breaking up and then even when the picture came on it didn't seem to be in HDTV

22.1 didnt show the game in HD. I think that they have only broadcast 1/2 of a game inHD this season. some one pulled the switch at halftime of the away Jags game

The last 2 home games were on 22.1 but the picture was boxed 4x3.

I would like to know why 22 wont broadcat the game in HD. Is CBS not filming all games in HD, or is does 22 not push the button just before kickoff.
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post #41 of 3748 Old 12-05-2004, 05:02 PM
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My new Winegard HD 9095P antenna is up in South Haven ,MI and am receiving the analog feeds of 16,22,28 very strong.With 25,34,and 57 less so but still watchable.What are the odds of HD reception of the less strong channels
I hope to make my decision on a new HDTV very soon.I am planning on using the digital tuner in a sat. receiver,VOOM most likely.
Updates to the thread for the latest info would be appreciated.Thanks
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post #42 of 3748 Old 12-05-2004, 05:02 PM
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Also this might sound like a very uh,simpleton question but,are the commercials in HD too?
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post #43 of 3748 Old 12-05-2004, 06:07 PM
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bobbehr:
Both 25 and 57 are very low power analogs, only about 100k watts or so. If you get a watchable pic on these 2, I would say you should get a very good digital signal at least on 30 and 42, probably on all the digitals.

Al
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post #44 of 3748 Old 12-09-2004, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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22.3 is no longer a radio station ... as of Friday, December 1st it is WSBT's Weather Channel.

It isn't the standard radar only ... they flip through several forecast and conditions pictures, many animated.

The audio is NOAA South Bend/North Webster.

JL
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post #45 of 3748 Old 01-05-2005, 06:18 PM
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Gee, I forgot all about this thread. This isn't exactly an OTA question, but does anyone else in the Michiana area have a Dish 811 that they're using for local reception? We're supposed to be able to get EPG information for the Local DTV stations from DishNetowrk, but I'm still getting "Local Digital" for all of mine.

justalurker, we're both on the South side of SB. One thing that would be nice to add to the WSBT-WX would be adding school closings on days like today.

--Roland
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post #46 of 3748 Old 01-14-2005, 04:38 PM
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I'm in Chicago (Hyde Park on the South Side), and am wondering what my chances of catching South Bend's WSBT with a roof mounted antenna are. I'm a huge Colts fan, and so far have subscribed to NFL Sunday Ticket on DirecTV, but I recently bought an HDTV and am seriously considering switching to Comcast because of the high cost of HD Tivo equipment from D*. According to AntennaWeb, I could use a "violet" class UHF antenna to catch WSBT, which is 72.4 miles away. What do you guys think, and which antenna/mount is recommended?
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post #47 of 3748 Old 01-14-2005, 10:57 PM
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Hey Kamage,

For the first 21 years of my life, I lived in Calumet City. I had a corner
reflector UHF antenna pointed north-northwest to Chicago and could
still get a weak signal from WSBT from an outdoor roof antenna.

Once you get beyond 60 miles the curvature of the earth kills the signal.
You can try a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF and a preamp, but you
might have unwanted side effects from being so close to Sears tower.

That said, I live out here in DeKalb, IL, 70 miles west-northwest of you.
And last week, with tropospheric ducting, or "trop" going on (TV reception
from 300 miles away was possible), I got WSBT-DT for about an hour
out here, and I'm 20 miles away from a low power analog channel 30
which I can get! If you have a roof to put a good antenna on, you can try
it...but inside, in an attic or wherever, you just won't be able to get it except on "good" days.

Gilbert
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post #48 of 3748 Old 01-16-2005, 07:41 AM
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Thanks for the reply. That's kind of what I was afraid of. But I'll give it a shot -- fortunately I do have roof access. Are there any other antennas in addition to the ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF that I should be looking at?
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post #49 of 3748 Old 01-16-2005, 10:28 PM
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Actually, I would go to antennasdirect.com and try out the XG91.
Lots of people have had great success with that antenna.
The problem is that it is BIG. 7 3/4' long. But, it is very directional,
and that will definitely help you at least reduce the interference from Sears
and the Hancock some. You will need to be careful in how you point it,
as even a 1 degree turn can literally mean the difference between
signal and none at all. The ChannelMaster has slightly less gain and
is less directional, but 62 miles from the Hancock, I can get all but
channels 2 and 26 digital with it in the *attic*, in a low area close
to a river!

My guess is that you won't get WSBT reliably. But, with continuous lake
breezes, as a meteorologist and a over-the-air TV fan, it should
grace your pixels frequently, especially spring-fall.

And I wish I had a list of all the South Bend and Indianapolis
subchannels and what they broadcast. Posting on the Indy board,
no one wants to write them down. Can anyone here?

Gilbert

Gilbert
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post #50 of 3748 Old 02-01-2005, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by sebenste
And I wish I had a list of all the South Bend and Indianapolis
subchannels and what they broadcast. Posting on the Indy board,
no one wants to write them down. Can anyone here?

PSIP Channels for South Bend:

16.1 WNDU NBC HD w/SD slightly stretched, cropped and upconverted
16.2 WNDU NBC SD = NTSC Simulcast
22.1 WSBT CBS HD w/SD letterboxed and centered
22.2 UPN Michiana SD - DT Only Station (no HD)
22.3 24/7 Weather Slide Show - Low Bandwidth SD w/NWS Audio
28.1 WSJV FOX HD w/SD letterboxed and centered
34.1 PBS-HD National Feed (No local content)
34.2 WNIT PBS SD = NTSC Simulcast
46.1 WHME LeSea SD = NTSC Simulcast (no HD)

Occasionally 34 PSIP has shown the DT channel PSIP of 35.

JL
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post #51 of 3748 Old 02-03-2005, 10:00 AM
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Quote:


Occasionally 34 PSIP has shown the DT channel PSIP of 35.

JL [/b]


They screwed up again this week. It's on 35 so no online guides/tivo will work for recording. I have once again emailed them. None of the other local channels have this (problem). I hope it is in error and not the engineer's personal belief again.
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post #52 of 3748 Old 02-03-2005, 05:45 PM
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I just checked the Prime Time line-up available on the Michiana DTV stations. WNDU-DT and WSJV-DT seem to have their act together and are transmitting proper PSIP information for the programs on the air. WSBT-DT has the correct 22.x channels, but with bogus PSIP program titles for 22.01 and 22.02 ("DTV Program". Duh.) Like idttywlm said, WNIT-DT shows up on my Mits as 35.01 and 35.02, no station ID, no Program titles. WHME-DT, usually 46.01, now says 48.03 (?) with no PSIP Channel ID or Program title.

So, three days after the FCC says "You will obey" and the score is 2 pass, 3 fail (40%). I guess the SBN DMA fails.

--Roland
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post #53 of 3748 Old 02-04-2005, 07:35 AM
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Roland,

The only channels that don't correspond to their analog channels for me are 34-1 and 34-2. 22 and 46 both come in fine at their digital slots of 22-1.. and 46-1. This is with a Tivo HD tuner and not any instrument.

Yesterday I emailed WNIT and got no response. Today I sent a complaint to the FCC.

Jeff
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post #54 of 3748 Old 02-04-2005, 04:53 PM
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I think I'll need to re-scan the Digital channels to fix the Mitsubishi. I was hoping to wait until after WNIT fixed their tables.

--Roland
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post #55 of 3748 Old 02-10-2005, 01:09 PM
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This is what I got back from the FCC regarding my complaint. They say there is no violation so I F'n give up. I'm not giving another dime to either the radio or tv station:

You are receiving this email in response to your inquiry to the FCC.

Thanks for contacting the FCC Consumer Center in Gettysburg PA.

While we understand your frustration, we're not seeing a violation of FCC rules described in your message. However if you believe there is a violation, you may file a complaint with the FCC Enforcement Bureau in writing to:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554

Fax: 202-418-0232

Complaints should include:

- the call sign and community of the station allegedly in violation

- detailed facts regarding the nature of the violation

- any available supporting documentation, and

- the name and address of the person(s) sending the complainant.

WNIT's analog channel is 34; its DTV channel is 35. That is, the channels are adjacent - and we can't think why, if indeed they are, taking measures to help consumers more easily change from their analog to their digital channel.

***Does the above mean that since they are adjacent, they fulfill the FCC's wishes? When will the analog signal go away and make the digital stuff work correctly with all the guides out there? Probably not for many years I imagine. ****************************

That is, a TV station broadcasting on, say, channel 8 might have been issued non-adjacent channel 29 for its digital operation.

Consumers may see these channels denoted by hyphens, and they may appear as 8-1 and 8-2; or 8-0, 8-1 and 8-2; or variations.

8-0 is usually the station's standard, analog signal; 8-1 and 8-2 is the station's DTV transmitter actually operating on channel 29. Using what is called PSIP (Program System Information Protocol) the station is able to make a TV set display those channels as 8-1 and 8-2, but in reality your TV set tuned to channel 29. This prevents the viewer having to keep track of TV stations' DTV channels. Using PSIP, the broadcaster can associate the analog transmitter channel assignment to the DTV transmitter channel. Therefore 8-0 is analog channel 8, 8-1 is actually channel 29, as is 8-2. Without such association, the viewer would be required to tune to channel 8 or 29 to view analog or DTV programming. It is easier for a viewer to use the remote control channel up/down button to change between channels 8-0, 8-1, and 8-2.
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post #56 of 3748 Old 02-10-2005, 02:11 PM
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JustaLurker,

Thanks for the info! Mucho appreciated.

BTW, WSBT-DT has applied to move back to channel 22
for their DT signal after the analog channel gets shut off.

Gilbert
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post #57 of 3748 Old 02-13-2005, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by sebenste
BTW, WSBT-DT has applied to move back to channel 22
for their DT signal after the analog channel gets shut off.

Cool. Are you getting that from the FCC or a local source?
I know that existing stations are supposed to be making that election now, but I have not found the list -- yet.

Nevermind the link --- Found it!

WNDU 16 -> 42
WSBT 22 -> 22 (not 30)
WSJV 28 -> 28 (not 58)
WNIT 34 -> 35
WHME 46 -> 48

Interesting choices.

JL
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post #58 of 3748 Old 02-13-2005, 10:33 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by justalurker
Nevermind the link --- Found it!

WNDU 16 -> 42
WSBT 22 -> 22 (not 30)
WSJV 28 -> 28 (not 58)
WNIT 34 -> 35
WHME 46 -> 48

Interesting choices.

JL

Indeed. S'funny, but 65 miles west of Chicago, WSBT-DT and TV
come in about once a week. WNDU has a trickle of a signal when this
hapens, and the other stations aren't there. I might never see WNIT-DT
on my dial, since Milwaukee has one of their PBS DT stations built out at a nice power on channel 35. That, and analog WWTO-DT 35 35 miles
south of me at 5 mw ERP will stop that from happening. It's also nearly
impossible to get WNIT analog since W34CK, low power translator of
channel 62 in Tinley Park (southwest of Chicago) upgraded their
transmitter and power on Sears Tower last month. Directional south
and west. Sigh. PBS beats 24 hours of infomercials hands down. :-(

Gilbert
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post #59 of 3748 Old 02-13-2005, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It is interesting to see how many (or how few) stations are going to keep their historical frequencies. I've pulled the records for the 135 stations in Michigan, Indiana and Illinois that filed a DTV election and only 36 of them are choosing their old frequency over the new one.

Who wants to move their DTV to their analog channel after transition?
Chicago: WLS 7 (WBBM asking to be on DT 11 once vacated by WTTW analog)
Carbondale: WSIU wants channel 8 instead of 40.
Champaign/Springfield: WILL 9, WICD 15, WICS 20 and WCFN 49
Peoria: WHOI 19 and WEEK 25
Rockford: WREX 13 (the only VHF) and WIFR 23
Quincy: WGEM 10

Four of Indianapolis' 14 stations want their analog frequency: WTHR 13, WTTK 29, WCLJ 42 and WIPB 49. Powerhouses RTV and TTV are happy to move (or stay on their DTV assignments).
Evansville: WNIN 9 and WEHT 25
Fort Wayne: All keeping their DTV channel
South Bend: as noted two keeping the analog three keeping the DTV assignment.
Terre Haute: WTHI 10 and WVUT 22. Yes, WTWO is giving up 2 for 36!

Ann Arbor: WPXD wants CH 31
Flint: WJRT wants 12 instead of 36 - making them the only VHF there. WFUM wants 28.
Grand Rapids: WZZM wants CH 13 (and be one of the 5 of 9 to be VHF in that market).
Lansing: WILX 10 and WKAR 23
Far north stations not shown, although it is interesting to see that 9 out of 16 stations in the northern lower and upper peninsula that made a choice will go with their analog channels.

Two questions:
1) How tough was it for the stations to decide? Is it strictly based on how many people they could cover on each channel and go for the best or did stations take in to account years of channel branding? I know in this market WNDU IS channel 16. Will we grow to love them as CH 42?

2) What will happen to PSIP - and when? The thought crossed my mind when WNIT's PSIP broke a couple of weeks ago that since they will eventually be WNIT-DT 35 they might want to start calling themselves that now. I assume that WNDU cannot call itself CH 16 forever. What will happen when the next channel 16 comes along?

The interesting thing about the digital transition is that when it is over all of the abandoned channels will be up for grabs. So in South Bend we will have CH 16, 30, 58, 34 and 46 ready to assign --- there could very well be a new TV16.

JL
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post #60 of 3748 Old 02-14-2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by justalurker
I know in this market WNDU IS channel 16. Will we grow to love them as CH 42?

I was thinking the same thing. NewsCenter Fourty-two doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same as "NewsCenter 16"...

--Roland
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