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post #61 of 3747 Old 02-14-2005, 09:53 AM
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When channels 16, 22 and 28 first went on the air back in the 50's, weren't they all at higher channels than they are now?
Seems to me, I can remember channel 28 originally being up in the 50's somewhere. I think they all moved to their present assignments at about the same time.
I just checked their web sites. Channel 22 doesn't say anything about it,
but Channel 16 went on the air on channel 46 and moved to 16 in 1957. Channel 28 went on the air on channel 52 and moved to 28 in 1958.
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post #62 of 3747 Old 02-14-2005, 12:01 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by justalurker
It is interesting to see how many (or how few) stations are going to keep their historical frequencies. I've pulled the records for the 135 stations in Michigan, Indiana and Illinois that filed a DTV election and only 36 of them are choosing their old frequency over the new one..............

Two questions:
1) How tough was it for the stations to decide? Is it strictly based on how many people they could cover on each channel and go for the best or did stations take in to account years of channel branding? I know in this market WNDU IS channel 16. Will we grow to love them as CH 42?

2) What will happen to PSIP - and when? The thought crossed my mind when WNIT's PSIP broke a couple of weeks ago that since they will eventually be WNIT-DT 35 they might want to start calling themselves that now. I assume that WNDU cannot call itself CH 16 forever. What will happen when the next channel 16 comes along?

JL

Over the weekend, "George at WNDU" answered most of your questions with this post at the Indy thread......................




Ryan


Ryan,

Basically, the FCC made it very difficult for stations to go back to their analog channel with digital.

FCC allowed/encouraged/bullied stations into maximizing coverage on their digital channel and have proclaimed that facility "protected."

But a station wanting to move digital to its analog channel is not allowed to increase interference to those "protected" facilities (by more than only a slight amount), meaning power reductions in certain directions (although some of these might disappear if relocated to their analog channel).

And two (or more) stations whose digital operation on their analog channels would mutually interfere have to protect each other (but the FCC won't approve large areas of interference between, even if such stations agree to accepting).

Stations were faced with deciding between the guaranteed coverage area of their current digital channel and any coverage reduction on their analog channel from having to protect nearby digital stations.

Many stations discovered their digital channel afforded better coverage because re-using the analog channel was impeded by protecting already established digital stations or digital stations reverting to former analog channels.

But stations whose analog channel allowed bigger/better coverage for digital than their present digital channel got lucky and elected to revert digital to their analog spectrum (and some stations had no choice in this round of channel elections if one or both of their channels is outside the core or both on low-VHF).

A lot of thought also went into branding by established channel number, but not considered as important because PSIP allows virtual channel numbers (and besides channel numbers are different on cable or satellite and viewers seem to have no problem finding their favorite station).

But in the end, it seems it was really a choice between a "bird in the hand" and a "role of the dice."

I'm sure many stations will regret their decision, either way, but many won't.


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post #63 of 3747 Old 02-15-2005, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by jimisham
When channels 16, 22 and 28 first went on the air back in the 50's, weren't they all at higher channels than they are now?
Seems to me, I can remember channel 28 originally being up in the 50's somewhere. I think they all moved to their present assignments at about the same time.
I just checked their web sites. Channel 22 doesn't say anything about it,
but Channel 16 went on the air on channel 46 and moved to 16 in 1957. Channel 28 went on the air on channel 52 and moved to 28 in 1958.

I can appreciate the history ... but in those early days of TV changes affected less people. In 1950, only 9% of households had TV. In 1955 that jumped to 64.5% and by 1960 it was at 87.1%. (That 87.1% was 45,750 of 52,500 households.) Now we are at 108,400 TV households in the US (98.2%).
source

I'm suprising myself with the percentage of early adopters ... I didn't realize that TV took off that quickly. But then the statisics are not for number of sets and hours watched. I consider early TV to be almost experimental ... with a lot more slack cut by the viewers for problems like weak pictures and lack of color. Those channel changes most likely represented vast improvements in their signals.

We are seeing some "experimental" forgiveness on digital TV. Audio and video problems are being excused to a certain extent while stations do what they did in the 1950's and 60's and work the bugs out of broadcasting. And PSIP helps keep the channels on their familiar numbers during the transition. But when DT goes mainstream and "the common folk" are forced to get a new tuner it will be different. And interesting to see how the stations handle their change.

I'll ask in the Indy thread about PSIP, since it came up there first. And be glad that the transition is still a couple of years off.

JL
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post #64 of 3747 Old 02-15-2005, 02:32 AM - Thread Starter
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From the answering my own question department ...

Poking around the DTV 2nd Report and Order it does appear branding is kept:
Quote:


paragraph 30
As part of PSIP, a broadcaster's major channel number is its NTSC channel number. This major channel number is the station's channel identity during and after the transition. Therefore, a station's channel election decision will have no effect on the assignment of its NTSC channel number as its major channel number in PSIP.

BTW: Under this order, PSIP is required as of February 1st, 2005 (120 days after the publication in the Federal Register). This is the paragraph that says WNIT should be using PSIP 34. (Paragraph 152 is where the FCC says the program guide should be accurate for the next 12hrs minimum - hello! "DTV Program" isn't accurate!)

JL
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post #65 of 3747 Old 02-15-2005, 09:42 PM
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Justalurker,

Better than WYIN-DT 17 in Crown Point, IN (northwest IN). They have
NO PSIP data at all, and of their two subchannels, one is completely
dead. From what I can tell, outside of big PBS stations like WTTW
in Chicago, many of the smaller ones have major issues. I don't
consider yours to be major in comparison, and "DTV program" is
not detailed but is the truth. Probably just lets them off the hook
until they get everything in.

Gilbert

Gilbert
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post #66 of 3747 Old 03-09-2005, 10:58 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by justalurker
From the answering my own question department ...

Poking around the DTV 2nd Report and Order it does appear branding is kept:


BTW: Under this order, PSIP is required as of February 1st, 2005 (120 days after the publication in the Federal Register). This is the paragraph that says WNIT should be using PSIP 34. (Paragraph 152 is where the FCC says the program guide should be accurate for the next 12hrs minimum - hello! "DTV Program" isn't accurate!)

JL

So where does that leave us? The FCC told me they saw no problem with the PSIP at 35 so I don't understand your post. This seems to contradict what they said. I just want the damn guide and channel in sync. They can be channel &^ as far as I'm concerned. I don't know who to complain to to get the tivo/directv guide changed.
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post #67 of 3747 Old 03-09-2005, 04:42 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by sebenste
Justalurker,

Better than WYIN-DT 17 in Crown Point, IN (northwest IN). They have
NO PSIP data at all, and of their two subchannels, one is completely
dead.

Gilbert

They might be screwed up now,but they had it working last May.Check the screenshot on page 4.

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/DXPHOTOS/
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post #68 of 3747 Old 03-09-2005, 05:31 PM
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All three of my ATSC decoders are now showing WNIT-DT's PSIP data is back on line. Lower-cased, but now showing 34-01 wnit-hd and 34-02 wnit-sd on my Dish 6000 and 811. The Mitsubishi WS-55613 still shows the program title as "DTV Program", though.

--Roland
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post #69 of 3747 Old 03-11-2005, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by idttywlm
So where does that leave us? The FCC told me they saw no problem with the PSIP at 35 so I don't understand your post.

I don't believe the FCC is up to speed with its own regulations yet. These are new rules. There are a lot of FCC rules that are not fully enforced.
Quote:


Originally posted by Foxbat
All three of my ATSC decoders are now showing WNIT-DT's PSIP data is back on line. Lower-cased, but now showing 34-01 wnit-hd and 34-02 wnit-sd on my Dish 6000 and 811. The Mitsubishi WS-55613 still shows the program title as "DTV Program", though.

That's good news. It was probably just an equipment failure - something that could be explained to the FCC if they ever asked.

I'll be glad when DTV is less of an "experimental" technology.

JL
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post #70 of 3747 Old 03-20-2005, 07:47 PM
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Hi, Has anyone noticed pixilation on 22.1 March Madness BB?

I wonder if the subchannels' operation has taken too much bandwidth?

aggie
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post #71 of 3747 Old 04-02-2005, 03:31 PM
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Hi, Anyone have ComCast HD cable in South Bend? I am wondering if they have any carriage of ABC-HD. ( A Comcast Rep has so claimed, but I don't understand how they could!)

Also, I gather that they don't carry Fox-HD; can someone confirm?

Thanks,

aggie
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post #72 of 3747 Old 04-02-2005, 05:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by aggie
Hi, Anyone have ComCast HD cable in South Bend? I am wondering if they have any carriage of ABC-HD. ( A Comcast Rep has so claimed, but I don't understand how they could!)

Also, I gather that they don't carry Fox-HD; can someone confirm?

Thanks,

No, there is no ABC HD, the CSR told me the same thing before I signed up. All the local HD they have (in Middlebury, I think it is all the same in South Bend) is WSBT CBS-HD and WNIT PBS-HD. There is no Fox-HD so far. A while back I got a message that WNDU-HD would be coming on on ch 188, but I have never started getting it. Has anyone in the South Bend/Elkhart area started getting WNDU-DT?

Al
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post #73 of 3747 Old 04-12-2005, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
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FYI: WNDU announced their HDTV arrival on Comcast during their 5pm newscast tonight. Channel 188.

It was fun to watch Terry McFadden read the story and say HDTV so many times in a row.

JL
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post #74 of 3747 Old 04-12-2005, 08:44 PM
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JL, Thanks, now all we need is an ABC HD channel, and of course, carriage of FOX.

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post #75 of 3747 Old 04-19-2005, 11:08 AM
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I note that WNDU resolves to 16-1, 16-2 and 16-3 here.
Did they add a subchannel? What's currently on 16-1,
16-2, and 16-3?

Gilbert
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post #76 of 3747 Old 04-19-2005, 05:13 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by sebenste
I note that WNDU resolves to 16-1, 16-2 and 16-3 here.
Did they add a subchannel? What's currently on 16-1,
16-2, and 16-3?

16-1 - WNDU programming, 16:9 format for HD, 14:9 for upconverted SD
16-2 - WNDU, 4:3 SD format
16-3 - Live SuperDoppler16, 24 hr radar with NOAA weather radio audio

WNDU added 16-3 about a month or so ago.

--Roland
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post #77 of 3747 Old 04-19-2005, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Foxbat
16-1 - WNDU programming, 16:9 format for HD, 14:9 for upconverted SD
16-2 - WNDU, 4:3 SD format
16-3 - Live SuperDoppler16, 24 hr radar with NOAA weather radio audio

WNDU added 16-3 about a month or so ago.

Odd. I'm not getting 16-3. 16-2 is nasty at the moment (NewsCenter 16 at 10). I'm getting blockiness as well as audio loss. Perhaps 16-3 is off at the moment?

JL
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post #78 of 3747 Old 04-20-2005, 11:27 AM
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Thanks, Fox and Lurker. Looks like they are having problems with it
tonight, but I suspect it's only temporary.

Gilbert

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post #79 of 3747 Old 04-20-2005, 08:45 PM
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FOXBAT, The near full (widescreen) SD upconversion on Ch16-1 appears to be close to 16:9, although I may have some overscan on my display. Do you happen to know if they just stretch the picture horizontally, or are they maintaining correct "shape" by discarding some vertical resolution?

The up-converted material looks MUCH better than the 4:3 SD on Ch 22-1, for example.

aggie
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post #80 of 3747 Old 04-22-2005, 09:17 PM
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Does anyone know if any HDTV (ota) channel sends any kind of test signals for color, tint, contrast, etc.?

How about the antenna direction? From the degree listing on antennaweb.org they're all between about 190 and 205. But I can't figure if 190 is clockwise from 0 or counter-clockwise. Know what I mean? I'm in Knollwood, and I just can't seem to get all the ota channels from one antenna placement.

Has anyone heard about when we might get a digital ABC?

Thanks
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post #81 of 3747 Old 04-23-2005, 04:23 PM
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Janko, Clockwise from north. South is 180.

ABC digital is still just a hope. The digital "white-area" may solve our problem, via Direct or Dish. I believe that the "white-area" rules have not been published by the FCC yet.

I also live in Knollwood; using an antenna in my attic works quite well, except for ABC which is a LPTV.

Are you connected to a DBS service or Comcast?
I

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post #82 of 3747 Old 04-23-2005, 08:23 PM
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I figured that I'd have to get my antenna up higher. It's actually in my basement and it's only a little RCA amplified so I'm doing pretty well with it.

I had Comcast HD for a short time. At that time they had only CBS and PBS and I wasn't in the mood for waiting since CBS looked really bad anyway. I think OTA looks much better.
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post #83 of 3747 Old 04-25-2005, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by aggie
FOXBAT, The near full (widescreen) SD upconversion on Ch16-1 appears to be close to 16:9, although I may have some overscan on my display. Do you happen to know if they just stretch the picture horizontally, or are they maintaining correct "shape" by discarding some vertical resolution?

The up-converted material looks MUCH better than the 4:3 SD on Ch 22-1, for example.

Personally I don't like the stretch on 16-1, but it does appear to be mostly proportional.
{FX flipping on HD tuner and going to 16-1}
Then again, I haven't looked in a while. The old way left slight bars on the side (4:3 expanded to "14:10.5" cropped to "14:9" and side letterboxed to 16:9).

Flipping back and forth between broadcast and HD it appears they have zoomed it more to get rid of the side bars. They are trimming top and bottom, with a little more off the top than the bottom. It is appears to be proportional.

(4:3 expanded to "16:12" cropped to 16:9?)

JL
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post #84 of 3747 Old 04-25-2005, 10:46 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW: I did a rescan and 16-3 appeared on my box. All radar all the time.

(22-3 automatically appeared when added a few months ago, so I had not thought of doing a rescan. Come to think of it - 22-3 WX replaced 22-3 radio, so it would have been a valid channel at my last rescan just as different content.)

JL
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post #85 of 3747 Old 04-27-2005, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like TV 16 doesn't have a delay server.
Conan (delayed an hour) appears to be upconverted.

Both the SD and HD feed has black bars top and bottom. It does show the amount of cropping going on.

JL
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post #86 of 3747 Old 06-12-2005, 09:47 AM
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Does anyone know whether WSJV-DT 58 will implement its CP for 671kW by the July 1st deadline for the top 100 markets? At least I'm assuming that this station is still utilizing its STA for much lower power. Earlier this morning some nice tropospheric enhancement allowed me to get a short lock on WNIT-DT 35 @ 116 miles (pic attached). During the past two years I've seen every South Bend DTV with the exception of WSJV-DT. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.

Steve
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post #87 of 3747 Old 06-12-2005, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldrich View Post

Does anyone know whether WSJV-DT 58 will implement its CP for 671kW by the July 1st deadline for the top 100 markets?

Their most recent STA was filed May 1st and approved May 4th. (Their previous STA expired May 3rd.) This one expires July 1st - so they will need another STA in a couple of weeks or get their CP on the air!

JL
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post #88 of 3747 Old 06-13-2005, 04:03 PM
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JL,
You seem to be on top of the Michiana DTV situation, have you seen any indication whether Weigel (sp?) Broadcasting will ever get WBND-DT and WMWB-DT on the air before the LP deadline?

--Roland
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post #89 of 3747 Old 06-13-2005, 06:55 PM
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When is the LP deadline? I must have completely missed the announcement!

I for one am very interested in having HD MNF, but little else. If I could receive the Fort Wayne ABC with a tower, I would consider it (I live in Granger).

aggie
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post #90 of 3747 Old 06-13-2005, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aggie View Post

I for one am very interested in having HD MNF, but little else. If I could receive the Fort Wayne ABC with a tower, I would consider it (I live in Granger).

Isn't MNF going to be on ESPN-HD this year? Or, is that for 2006? Either way, I don't think viewers in Michiana will ever see MNF on ABC in HD without putting up a good tower/antenna combination.

--Roland
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