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post #631 of 4510 Old 05-11-2004, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by fsunoles1
Thanks for the info. Pspun, how did the power buy work out last time? If it happens for the HLP models this time, I was thinking about doing it. I was a little nervous about not buying it at a local store though incase there are any problems. Any insight would be appreciated.

Well, I joined the powerbuy in May of 2002, but didn't get the set until October. This was due to supply chain problems with Samsung back then (dock strike in the west coast at the time didn't help neither). We got very good deal on the powerbuy (saved about 20%). The powerbuy was with TVAuthority, but Samsung was involved. Most of us were satisfied with the powerbuy. Some of us did have problems with the set, some of the lamps burned out in the first few months (supposedly last 8000 hours). The lamps were replaced with no cost to us, however, they had a shortage of lamps (which were and still are manufactured by Toshiba, a competitor). Some of us had to wait two/three weeks to get the replacements. Samsung did let us upgrade the set with no charge, except a $200 charge by local service techs to come to your house, by replacing the main circuit board that provides many requested functions by the AVSForum members, such as discrete remote codes, and improved picture quality. This essentially upgraded the set to HLN series. The president of TVAuthority was a great help for us working with Samsung, and our forum Moderator David Bott was great at helping us working with Samsung and TVAuthority. I don't know if David Bott would want to do another powerbuy with the efforts he had to provide. And, with the market demand for the DLP sets from Samsung, I am not sure Samsung would do it neither. Let me know if you have any questions.

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post #632 of 4510 Old 05-12-2004, 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by WTEV-JD
CBS sends 5.1 audio as well as stereo audio to us at the studios here in town. Coming this fall FOX will do the same. Our encoding equipment does not gracefully switch between 5.1 and stereo, so switching from the HD feed to SD programming would be a disaster. In order to take advantage of the 5.1 feeds from Fox and CBS we would have to convert our SD audio to 5.1 and that is an expense that we are not prepared to bear right now. As the number of viewers grow, it will make more and more sense to invest in more/better digital equipment at the station here in town. I know its not a popular answer, but thats our situation right now.

Jerry

I thought Fox's new equipment didn't require the local to convert audio. You just patch the a/v into the fox hardware and it broadcasts all HD 5.1 from Fox, and any SD and upconverted from the local when its called to.

This is also supposed to be preventing double bug issues.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ax#post3708746

according to FoxEng, the signal is passed through, not touched in anyway by the station.
Could you clarify on this with regards to local Fox broadcasting?

- Jack
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post #633 of 4510 Old 05-12-2004, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally posted by jandar
I thought Fox's new equipment didn't require the local to convert audio. You just patch the a/v into the fox hardware and it broadcasts all HD 5.1 from Fox, and any SD and upconverted from the local when its called to.

This is also supposed to be preventing double bug issues.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ax#post3708746

according to FoxEng, the signal is passed through, not touched in anyway by the station.
Could you clarify on this with regards to local Fox broadcasting?

- Jack


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by WTEV-JD
CBS sends 5.1 audio as well as stereo audio to us at the studios here in town. Coming this fall FOX will do the same. Our encoding equipment does not gracefully switch between 5.1 and stereo, so switching from the HD feed to SD programming would be a disaster. In order to take advantage of the 5.1 feeds from Fox and CBS we would have to convert our SD audio to 5.1 and that is an expense that we are not prepared to bear right now. As the number of viewers grow, it will make more and more sense to invest in more/better digital equipment at the station here in town. I know its not a popular answer, but thats our situation right now.

Jerry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jack, from what Jerry said, he can pass the 5.1 to us, however, because they can't switch easily (and I don't know what "disaster" he is talking about) between 5.1 and stereo, they have decided to just transmit stereo until they can convert all their stereo (SD programs) to 5.1.

Jerry, is it too technical to explain to us the process of switching between 5.1 and stereo? How difficult is it to convert stereo to 5.1? It seems to me that our receivers (some of these are down right cheap) are converting your stero signal to simulated 5.1 to our speakers via Dolby Pro-logic.

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post #634 of 4510 Old 05-12-2004, 03:50 PM
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I think some of you may fail to understand that the local station is not just a relay point for the networks. If it were, then WAWS could indeed simply pass on the network feed. The fact that the local station must take the Dolby E from the network and convert it to Dolby Digital is in itself a task that requires additional equipment. If you are so interested in how it is done, you can get all the technical details on the Dolby website. They have several documents up there that can get as technical as you want.

Simply put, the networks send Dolby E. Your receivers do not decode Dolby E. They decode Dolby Digital. The local station decodes the Dolby E for you and builds out the complete package of audio that your consumers can receive which would be both Dolby DD5.1 and DD2.0 DPL. For HDTV there is no need for analog stereo PCM or MTS audio like the analog stations send but it is also included. This may sound confusing but backward compatibility is necessary to prevent "no sound" on some receivers.

I think you misunderstood Jerry. Unless he has some new equipment I have not heard of, he cannot "pass" DD5.1 to us from the networks without the proper chain of hardware at the station. This is the hardware that he says the station has not yet budgeted for.


In case you don't wish top spend the time reading the Dolby site, here is a very brief primer on the process from network to local transmitter-

Dolby E from the network. This is decoded to base band audio and fed to a mixer board. Here the audio is mixed with house station audio feeds, mono and stereo, and even local 5.1 as necessary and available. This is a special board that can mix all the channels to the people 5.1 output. The board's output is then fed to a DD 5.1 encoder that produces the type of signal DD5.1 and DD2.0 DPL that your receiver can recognize. This is then sent and "MUXed" with the network Video or house video HDTV or ATSC SD video to an encoder where the composite video - audio is built out for transmission. The final Dolby encoder is also required to build out the "Meta Data" that your receiver needs to know if the audio is DD2.0 only, DD5.1, DD3/2, and a whole host of flavors that are permitted in the ATSC and Dolby spec.


Yes, it is complicated compared to a stereo audio feed on the NTSC station. And you should respect that the main reason for this complication is so the station can send audio that will be recognized by any audio receiver, you may choose to add to your ATSC HDTV receiver. That would be an old fashion analog non-Dolby amplifier, a DD2.0 only, or a DD5.1 receiver. All consumer DD7.1 is backward compatible with DD5.1 so the station doesn't need to worry about making a special budget for DD7.1.

I have not figured the pricing for the switch over to DD5.1 but based on just the hardware boxes from Dolby, I'd say a budget of $50,000 is appropriate which includes engineering and installation costs. Then Jerry would need 2 of everything for both channels/networks.
Now go and inquire how much a 30 second spot costs at WTEV or WAWS and do the math. How many commercials does the station need to sell just to buy the Dolby hardware? Not a pretty future, IMO.

Bigger markets have it better because they can charge more for the commercials. Their ROI is faster. Unfortunately, the Dolby hardware is the same price to a station in Jacksonville as it is to a station in NYC.


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post #635 of 4510 Old 05-12-2004, 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Don Landis
I think some of you may fail to understand that the local station is not just a relay point for the networks. If it were, then WAWS could indeed simply pass on the network feed. The fact that the local station must take the Dolby E from the network and convert it to Dolby Digital is in itself a task that requires additional equipment. If you are so interested in how it is done, you can get all the technical details on the Dolby website. They have several documents up there that can get as technical as you want.

Simply put, the networks send Dolby E. Your receivers do not decode Dolby E. They decode Dolby Digital. The local station decodes the Dolby E for you and builds out the complete package of audio that your consumers can receive which would be both Dolby DD5.1 and DD2.0 DPL. For HDTV there is no need for analog stereo PCM or MTS audio like the analog stations send but it is also included. This may sound confusing but backward compatibility is necessary to prevent "no sound" on some receivers.

I think you misunderstood Jerry. Unless he has some new equipment I have not heard of, he cannot "pass" DD5.1 to us from the networks without the proper chain of hardware at the station. This is the hardware that he says the station has not yet budgeted for.


In case you don't wish top spend the time reading the Dolby site, here is a very brief primer on the process from network to local transmitter-

Dolby E from the network. This is decoded to base band audio and fed to a mixer board. Here the audio is mixed with house station audio feeds, mono and stereo, and even local 5.1 as necessary and available. This is a special board that can mix all the channels to the people 5.1 output. The board's output is then fed to a DD 5.1 encoder that produces the type of signal DD5.1 and DD2.0 DPL that your receiver can recognize. This is then sent and "MUXed" with the network Video or house video HDTV or ATSC SD video to an encoder where the composite video - audio is built out for transmission. The final Dolby encoder is also required to build out the "Meta Data" that your receiver needs to know if the audio is DD2.0 only, DD5.1, DD3/2, and a whole host of flavors that are permitted in the ATSC and Dolby spec.


Yes, it is complicated compared to a stereo audio feed on the NTSC station. And you should respect that the main reason for this complication is so the station can send audio that will be recognized by any audio receiver, you may choose to add to your ATSC HDTV receiver. That would be an old fashion analog non-Dolby amplifier, a DD2.0 only, or a DD5.1 receiver. All consumer DD7.1 is backward compatible with DD5.1 so the station doesn't need to worry about making a special budget for DD7.1.

I have not figured the pricing for the switch over to DD5.1 but based on just the hardware boxes from Dolby, I'd say a budget of $50,000 is appropriate which includes engineering and installation costs. Then Jerry would need 2 of everything for both channels/networks.
Now go and inquire how much a 30 second spot costs at WTEV or WAWS and do the math. How many commercials does the station need to sell just to buy the Dolby hardware? Not a pretty future, IMO.

Bigger markets have it better because they can charge more for the commercials. Their ROI is faster. Unfortunately, the Dolby hardware is the same price to a station in Jacksonville as it is to a station in NYC.

But, Don as Jandar posted, the new equipment that Fox Corporate is having installed at the affils allow for Dolby Digital to be sent to the station without the station requiring any equipment. This is what a couple of stations engineers over in the programming forum have mentioned. The according the two engineers who were working with the company installing the Fox equipment, the installs for Florida began in late March. I will ask Foxeng or Spwace if Fox will be sending Dolby E. If that is the case then our affil would need the decoding equipment.

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post #636 of 4510 Old 05-12-2004, 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by AFH
But, Don as Jandar posted, the new equipment that Fox Corporate is having installed at the affils allow for Dolby Digital to be sent to the station without the station requiring any equipment. This is what a couple of stations engineers over in the programming forum have mentioned. The according the two engineers who were working with the company installing the Fox equipment, the installs for Florida began in late March. I will ask Foxeng or Spwace if Fox will be sending Dolby E. If that is the case then our affil would need the decoding equipment.

This is what I am referring to:

Since the splicer takes out the local encoder bits and splices in the network bits, there is no reason for the local station to ever have to interact with the actual stream coming in. Because of this, it doesn't matter if a station has 5.1 equipment or not. Since the data stream comes straight out of the receiver and straight into the transmitter, network controls any 5.1 and network has said they will do 5.1 every chance they get. That is to be the norm for network programming.

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post #637 of 4510 Old 05-13-2004, 10:53 PM
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Hello all,
I have a Sony HD300 receiver, which has been plagued by audio dropouts and pixelixzation on OTA broadcasts. I just got a firmware upgrade through Direct TV, and I'm still having problems getting a consistent strong signal. I have an amplified Radio shack antenna in the attic pointing south, and was conmfirmed as correct by a professional installer. My signal strength is inconsistent, and I have a hard time enjoying any OTA programs. ABC is the worst culprit, almost never a good signal. I live on the westside near Chaffee and Old Plank Rd. I need some advice. My dedicated theater is complete but I can't get my wife in it for OTA programs. She'd rather watch it on the tiny tv with no audio video problems. Do I need to move the antenna outside? Is there a better antenna or something I can do. I can get a strong signal on all channels, but not on the same day and it is sporadic, so I was thinking that the weak signals may be coming from the stations. please help, and thanks in advance for your response, Pete.


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post #638 of 4510 Old 05-14-2004, 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by pete6737
Hello all,
I have a Sony HD300 receiver, which has been plagued by audio dropouts and pixelixzation on OTA broadcasts. I just got a firmware upgrade through Direct TV, and I'm still having problems getting a consistent strong signal. I have an amplified Radio shack antenna in the attic pointing south, and was conmfirmed as correct by a professional installer. My signal strength is inconsistent, and I have a hard time enjoying any OTA programs. ABC is the worst culprit, almost never a good signal. I live on the westside near Chaffee and Old Plank Rd. I need some advice. My dedicated theater is complete but I can't get my wife in it for OTA programs. She'd rather watch it on the tiny tv with no audio video problems. Do I need to move the antenna outside? Is there a better antenna or something I can do. I can get a strong signal on all channels, but not on the same day and it is sporadic, so I was thinking that the weak signals may be coming from the stations. please help, and thanks in advance for your response, Pete.

There have been a couple of individuals on the board who have antenna in their attics. The problem is that they to have experienced some of the problems that you have. I have my antenna outside and I can rec all of the stations. I also live on the Westside near 295 and 103rd. The stations have strong signals so don't isn't your problem. You may try mounting the antenna differently, which is what some have done.

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post #639 of 4510 Old 05-14-2004, 05:57 AM
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You said your antenna is pointing South. Hopefully that is South-East and maybe more East than South. I would try without the amplifier, can you turn it off? Can you get a good analog signal with this antenna pointed just as you have it now?
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post #640 of 4510 Old 05-14-2004, 10:51 AM
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"But, Don as Jandar posted, the new equipment that Fox Corporate is having installed at the affils ...

OK, so this means that FOX network is supplying the equipment to all affiliates? This is different than FOX sending a new form of DD5.1 that requires no decoding or encoding. I'll do some reading around the block on this to see what's up. Funny, Jerry didn't seem to know about it either.

I still don't see how any station can pass DD without any dolby digital decoding or encoding equipment unless they are simply acting as a relay point for network direct to home. Like the satellites do.


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post #641 of 4510 Old 05-14-2004, 11:39 AM
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Dr. Jax and AFH, thanks for the replies. My antenna is pointing south and a little east. I used the direction as instructed on a website(antennaweb?) I think I could try to go further east to see if I can get a stronger signal. I tried without the amplifier thingy when I set it up intially, per a sound advice installer and I got nothing. plugging in the amplifier got a signal on every station, but a good part of the time I can't watch a program I want because of a interittent weak signal. I'm going to get into the attic and play around with it tonight. Are the towers at the same place as the station building?. Channel 12 and 25's building is tecnically due east of me. If that's the case, need to rotate 90 degrees east. I don't know where the other stations are located. I'll work on it tonight and get back with you, thanks, Pete


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post #642 of 4510 Old 05-14-2004, 04:26 PM
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The equipment as I understand it would require us to either switch the audio back and forth from stereo to 5.1 which takes about 30-45 seconds for the encoder to re lock or to buy the 5.1 equipment for non-Fox programming. . It appears you guys are much more knowledgeable than I am about it, I'm only the chief engineer of the local station. I try to provide you with the info I have and use what little expertise I have to help your reception of our signals. I'm certainly not here to debate. I've not seen the equipment, but only read releases about it. When it arrives, we'll incorporate it into our plant, but not at the expense of non-Fox programming.

Jerry
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post #643 of 4510 Old 05-14-2004, 05:08 PM
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This is how FOX (from the network) will handle the audio for the HD feed, using Splicer.

We will always transmit the audio as 5.1 Dolby
Digital (AC-3). Whether the show is produced in
5.1, surround or stereo, we will deliver a properly
formatted AC-3 stream with appropriate meta-data
to ensure two channel receivers properly
decode the 5.1. There will also be a second audio
stream for SAP or descriptive audio.

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post #644 of 4510 Old 05-15-2004, 09:00 PM
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My SIR-T165 (OTA only) does not map digital channels 10 and 13 to 25-1 and 12-1 respectively. Is this caused by incorrect PSIP ? If so do I need to contact the stations for correction ?

My other receiver SIR-TS360, which has Directv service, maps all OTA digital stations correctly

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post #645 of 4510 Old 05-16-2004, 08:36 AM
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Taichinanda-

They are not sending that data over their DT channel. You are not alone with this. I have been wanting to ask Bill Schneider about this. It would make things nicer for me too on my 921 in that it would make all channels work the same on that receiver.

Jerry and other FOX DD enthusiasts-

Here is what I found out- Fox plans to deliver a box, called splicer to it's affiliates and assist in the installation and training, beginning March 2004. Each station will be contacted for the installation.

The splicer is a system that does indeed supply Dolby Digital 5.1 and all meta data, stereo compatible, ready to air audio from the network. The splicer is designed to accomodate local broadcaster station needs such as a built in logo inserter, PSIP and clock data. It eliminates the need to decode Dolby E to baseband, the traditional Dolby broadcast process. It will output the ready to air signal without the purchase requirements of an encoder. This eliminates a considerable amount of hardware.

An excellent summary and primer for station engineers is at:

http://www.satelliteanalysis.com/splicer.htm


On the surface, this looks like a good way for FOX to raise the bar on their network without taxing the small local affiliates' limited cash. I can think of a few disadvantages to this approach but not anything that would impact the viewers. I believe the station may find this process limiting their flexibility but, only if the local station is in the habit of doing inserts to a network feed where a remix of the sound is necessary. From what I see, this is not possible while the Dolby E-decoded to baseband has complete studio mix flexibility. In otherwords, the local station will deliver the network feed as is, save for the logo insert. With cost savings, comes certain restrictions.

What do you think, Jerry? Good thing or bad?

Oops! I see you already answered that... Bad thing if it takes 30-45 seconds for your existing equipment to swtch between the splicer and house feed. I wonder if Thomson or Fox has addressed that. Back to more reading!


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post #646 of 4510 Old 05-16-2004, 11:41 AM
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Thanks Don for the excellent post and link.

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post #647 of 4510 Old 05-16-2004, 02:41 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Don Landis
Oops! I see you already answered that... Bad thing if it takes 30-45 seconds for your existing equipment to swtch between the splicer and house feed. I wonder if Thomson or Fox has addressed that. Back to more reading!

I have talked to three different engineers who have the splicer installed (I am still waiting on mine) and they say the switch between the splicer and local is seamless and unless you know what you are looking for, you will never know it.

There does appear to be some issue of a pop or click on SOME receivers when the splicer is inserted or removed if the station is sending surround in the AC-3 stream instead of 5.1 in the AC-3 stream, but other than that, they say it there is no relocking issue. How bad this pop or click is, I don't know, but it can't be any worse than what I am hearing now when we do a straight cut in the AES audio stream and that is annoying, but not detrimental.

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post #648 of 4510 Old 05-16-2004, 03:03 PM
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FOXENG,
THanks for stopping in and giving us some info from the inside.
Jamie

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post #649 of 4510 Old 05-16-2004, 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by jamiecrane
FOXENG,
THanks for stopping in and giving us some info from the inside.
Jamie

No sweat. I will occasionally check in on the FL threads just to see what people are saying. (it has been a while since I looked at this one, so I thought I would stick my nose in! )

Went on vacation in your fair city 2 years ago and the wife and I LOVED it there. (She has relatives who live there.) We are looking forward to go back again someday soon!

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post #650 of 4510 Old 05-16-2004, 08:38 PM
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Watched a bit of Helter Skelter on 47-1 HD tonight and the sound was a bit scratchy.. anyone else have this issue?
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post #651 of 4510 Old 05-17-2004, 03:52 AM
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Yes, I had to switch to the NY CBS Feed from Direct. No issues on that one. Movie was a disappointment though, thought it would be a little better, the guy who played charlie just drove me nuts!
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post #652 of 4510 Old 05-17-2004, 09:32 AM
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Thanks Don, Ken H, foxeng, and jerry.

That pretty much cleared everything up Im sure for a lot of us.

-
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post #653 of 4510 Old 05-17-2004, 12:21 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by pete6737
Dr. Jax and AFH, thanks for the replies. My antenna is pointing south and a little east. I used the direction as instructed on a website(antennaweb?)

From where you are, the DT antennas are almost E of you. All of them are at Southside Blvd and Touchton Rd. At antennaweb, click to only show the digital channels.
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post #654 of 4510 Old 05-17-2004, 04:37 PM
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Jamie, how are you able to get the DirecTV CBS feed, did you get a waiver or something?
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post #655 of 4510 Old 05-17-2004, 05:06 PM
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I leave in Georgia, and Kingsland/ST Marys is actually serviced by Brantely Telephone and is considered a "Rural Market". Basically in the days when Dtv started, they didn't feel the need or the desire to service smaller communities so they sub-contracted out service to these smaller towns to the local telephone companies. We call them for activation and service and also recieve our bills from them. I never deal with direct tv at all. My parents also have "rural" service in North East Missouri, so it is somewhat common in the smaller communities nation wide. Now not dealing with DTV is nice, but it does have its drawbacks too, we do not get all the deals offered by DTV (ie the HD RCVR for cheapo) and can not access our accounts via the website, but we do pay the same rates (at least here,I have heard some places need to pay service charges) I do not have to pay to change programs, I receive Jax locals and the east and west feeds for CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX along with the East and West HD feed of CBS and hopefully FOX this fall. Overall it is a good deal, but my bill with 3 rcvrs and HBO/SHO comes close to 90 dollars a month, but when football season is here it is great since I can get games from up to 3 areas for each station.
Now not all rurals can rcv distant locals, but here Brantley does it automaticly for us. Sorry for the long winded explanation.
Jamie
PS
We are not required to connect via phone lines so I guess if someone had a PO Box they could switch service to Brantley and just tell them they lived here to rcv the distant feeds.

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post #656 of 4510 Old 05-18-2004, 06:04 PM
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Is anyone having problems with NBC 12-1 breaking-up? I was trying to watch the opening of L&O SVU and the picture kept breaking up.

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post #657 of 4510 Old 05-18-2004, 07:43 PM
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I noticed it to Antonio

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post #658 of 4510 Old 05-19-2004, 02:21 AM
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For the last 10 days WTLV-DT has been very weak signal strength, especially when compared to channel 10-1. Don't know why.

Other local channel changes-
My Clear Channel station channels are no longer remapping as of Tuesday. They now come in as 19-2 and 32-1 on all my receivers.
Jerry- You must be tinkering with something?

This has also resulted in channel 32-1 not being visible on my 921 but that happened after a new software update and I suspect that is a bug in the 921. Channel 32-1 IS still up and doing fine on my other receivers, it is just not remapping anymore.


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post #659 of 4510 Old 05-19-2004, 03:45 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Gator99
I noticed it to Antonio

Thanks.

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post #660 of 4510 Old 05-19-2004, 03:48 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Don Landis
For the last 10 days WTLV-DT has been very weak signal strength, especially when compared to channel 10-1. Don't know why.

Other local channel changes-
My Clear Channel station channels are no longer remapping as of Tuesday. They now come in as 19-2 and 32-1 on all my receivers.
Jerry- You must be tinkering with something?

This has also resulted in channel 32-1 not being visible on my 921 but that happened after a new software update and I suspect that is a bug in the 921. Channel 32-1 IS still up and doing fine on my other receivers, it is just not remapping anymore.

I haven't checked my signal, but I moved my antenna using the rotar and 10-1 was still not coming in, so the weak signal seems correct. As you mentioned, it is hard to figure out why they would all of a sudden have a weak signal. Has to be some type of equip problem.

My Clear Channel stations have been at 19-2 and 32-1 since Jan.

"I'm going to call them scallywags" - Ollie

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