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post #511 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 12:42 PM
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I think you meant www.tvfool.com

Why send him to another site when we have good folks who can help him here?
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post #512 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
I think you meant www.tvfool.com

Why send him to another site when we have good folks who can help him here?
Because TVFool offers an application which estimates what OTA TV Signals are available at a particular location. It is always useful to know what signals are available at the location you want to receive them, and the power levels and other information assist in choosing an antenna (or antennas) and pointing them. And a generic miles from the transmitter is not good enough, since mountains, trees and buildings can interfere with reception.
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post #513 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake V View Post
Because TVFool offers an application which estimates what OTA TV Signals are available at a particular location. It is always useful to know what signals are available at the location you want to receive them, and the power levels and other information assist in choosing an antenna (or antennas) and pointing them. And a generic miles from the transmitter is not good enough, since mountains, trees and buildings can interfere with reception.
I'm fully aware of how tvfool works It even says in the stickies to post your tvfool which the poster should have done instead of just asking why it doesnt work

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post #514 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 02:53 PM
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Crazy, the other night I was getting channels I'd never gotten before, about 30 in all, and last night I was getting only the usual 55 and CBS, and the Spanish channels.
warmer humid weather will enhance reception

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I got that antenna that boasts a ridiculous 150 mile range, only because it was on a lightning deal from Amazon, and I have it in the attic of my one story home in Centereach. I guess I need to try and get it on the roof. Didn't really want to go through the whole grounding thing.
Can an attic antenna in my situation be expected to get any good amount of channels reliably?
Those chinese antennas are junk...simple as that.
As for an attic, ANY obstruction will hinder reception. Also when outside on the roof (or outside period) unlike analog higher isnt always better. Where I am (Minneapolis, MN) my antenna is about 8 feet up the 10 foot pole. If I go to the top I have 3 stations that show worse signal than where it is now (weird but true)

Best thing is to post your tvfool (www.tvfool.com) and let us see the results
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post #515 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 02:55 PM
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Because that particular post provides detailed instructions on the best way to prepare a plot. I find that if I just provide the tvfool.com link users often need directions on how to use the tools there.
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post #516 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 02:57 PM
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running a basic tvfool (which usually does center of town) yields the following results
good-WLNY IND 55 (RF47)
WFTY Telemundo
WCBS translator

others show iffy. Now again the tvfool depends on your location so even if you're a mile from this general tvfool the results will change
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a46bf55f9def

1edge and 2edge means the signal has to bounce off 1 or 2 things before it reaches you. If its line of site (LOS) the signal comes in better
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post #517 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 03:43 PM
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Here's what I come up with on tvfool

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e6a4a8024b053c
In addition to the Chinese antenna I also have an old channel master CM4221.

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post #518 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 05:08 PM
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well its not the prettiest tvfool I've seen

I guess I'll ask what would you like to accomplish? Whatever you can pick up? As many of the major networks as you can? How much are you looking to spend? Would you be content with out of state programming (or are you just mainly looking at network programming)

Reason I ask is you could spend alot of money and not get the results you may want. The issue is outside of the "locals" (the ones 10 miles away) everything else is 1edge and 2edge which can be a bugger to cleanly pick up. It could take precise aiming for them to work.

I noticed you did not put in a elevation which defaults to 0 (ground). You may want to see what it shows at approx 20 feet and even play with the heioght to see if maybe 30 or 40 feet up from the ground would yield better results.

You could try the 4221 and see what you pick up
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post #519 of 536 Old 06-16-2017, 05:27 PM
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I can't comment on the Chinese antenna without a manufacturer or part number, but the Channel Master CM4221 is a good UHF antenna (real channels 14 and higher).

First, is your antenna aimed at about 275 degrees (aimed with a compass)?

Second, what does your antenna 'look through' when it's aimed to 275 degrees (west)?

Antenna placement in attics can be difficult. Sometimes you need to try a whole lot of locations, inch by inch.

That said, most of the channels you're looking for are in NYC and are in the "pink" range (meaning tough to get). If you've tried the above, and if that isn't working, I'd try an amplifier. But it's very likely you will need to get it up on the roof.

I did a simulation on your zip code that seemed similar to your plot at 10 feet.

At 10 feet Fox 5 (WNEW Real Channel 44 is 12.0 dB. Raise the antenna to 30 feet and it goes up to 15.4 dB.
At 10 feet My9 (WOR Real Channel 38 is 12.9 dB. Raise the antenna to 30 feet and it goes up to 16 dB.

I expect if you can get it up on the roof and not 'looking through' other buildings you'd be OK.
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post #520 of 536 Old 06-26-2017, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake V View Post
I can't comment on the Chinese antenna without a manufacturer or part number, but the Channel Master CM4221 is a good UHF antenna (real channels 14 and higher).

First, is your antenna aimed at about 275 degrees (aimed with a compass)?

Second, what does your antenna 'look through' when it's aimed to 275 degrees (west)?

Antenna placement in attics can be difficult. Sometimes you need to try a whole lot of locations, inch by inch.

That said, most of the channels you're looking for are in NYC and are in the "pink" range (meaning tough to get). If you've tried the above, and if that isn't working, I'd try an amplifier. But it's very likely you will need to get it up on the roof.

I did a simulation on your zip code that seemed similar to your plot at 10 feet.

At 10 feet Fox 5 (WNEW Real Channel 44 is 12.0 dB. Raise the antenna to 30 feet and it goes up to 15.4 dB.
At 10 feet My9 (WOR Real Channel 38 is 12.9 dB. Raise the antenna to 30 feet and it goes up to 16 dB.

I expect if you can get it up on the roof and not 'looking through' other buildings you'd be OK.
I returned that Chinese antenna and hooked up the 4221 in the attic. Using the iPhone compass is difficult, sometimes it goes haywire. Pointing west it's aimed through the slanted asphalt shingles roof. I'd guess it's around 18-20 feet off the ground, and only about 15-20 feet of R6 as it's right above the living room. I also got an RCA preamp, but the signal doesn't seem to change with or without it.
Besides the local towers which get me CBS and TV55 and PBS 21 and some Spanish channels I also get Fox5 with a pretty steady signal. My LG TV shows it at around 50% signal strength during the day. Night time gets me a few other channels, sometimes different ones each night. But since I get Fox pretty reliably, why can't I get the other channels broadcast from that same direction?

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post #521 of 536 Old 06-26-2017, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Stone View Post
I returned that Chinese antenna and hooked up the 4221 in the attic. Using the iPhone compass is difficult, sometimes it goes haywire. Pointing west it's aimed through the slanted asphalt shingles roof. I'd guess it's around 18-20 feet off the ground, and only about 15-20 feet of R6 as it's right above the living room. I also got an RCA preamp, but the signal doesn't seem to change with or without it.
Besides the local towers which get me CBS and TV55 and PBS 21 and some Spanish channels I also get Fox5 with a pretty steady signal. My LG TV shows it at around 50% signal strength during the day. Night time gets me a few other channels, sometimes different ones each night. But since I get Fox pretty reliably, why can't I get the other channels broadcast from that same direction?

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WJLP-DT broadcasts on Channel 3.
WABC-DT broadcasts on Channel 7.
WPIX-DT broadcasts on Channel 11.
WNET-DT broadcasts on Channel 13.

These are a few stations where their RF signal matches their ID, so you will need a VHF antenna to pick them up. If you want WJLP for MeTV, you will need a VHF antenna that can pick of RF-3. It will be wide, and will be difficult to work with in an attic.

WNBC-DT sold their license in the spectrum auction and it is assumed they will move that programming over to Telemundo.

One other thing is frequency and how radio waves at that frequency interact with the environment. The higher the frequency, the more susceptible the signal is to trees / leaves. And the lower the frequency, the more the beam can bend and refract around things. It's never that easy...

What can you pick up from Connecticut?

Also read this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

And yet one more thing... If you can receive FM Radio from the top of the ESB, you should be able to get some type of TV signal for the VHF stations with a proper antenna.

Last edited by dstoffa; 06-26-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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post #522 of 536 Old 06-26-2017, 12:16 PM
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WJLP-DT broadcasts on Channel 3.
WABC-DT broadcasts on Channel 7.
WPIX-DT broadcasts on Channel 11.
WNET-DT broadcasts on Channel 13.

These are a few stations where their RF signal matches their ID, so you will need a VHF antenna to pick them up. If you want WJLP for MeTV, you will need a VHF antenna that can pick of RF-3. It will be wide, and will be difficult to work with in an attic.

WNBC-DT sold their license in the spectrum auction and it is assumed they will move that programming over to Telemundo.

What can you pick up from Connecticut?
Hmm, I'll have to turn the antenna north and see. Thanks.

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post #523 of 536 Old 06-26-2017, 12:35 PM
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Hmm, I'll have to turn the antenna north and see. Thanks.

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When my uncle lived in Dix Hills, he used to be able to turn the antenna to CT to get the Giants games (which were blacked out on the NYC stations).
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post #524 of 536 Old 06-27-2017, 04:52 AM
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Dix Hills...is that in NY or NJ? Sorry...I've seen Fort Dix signs on the New Jersey Turnpike. I know the only channel 3 you may have picked up there would've been Philadelphia and not Hartford!

As for present-day channel 3 of Hartford, you likely wouldn't pick it up. I think they're on the same digital channel as WCBS-TV, which is 33. As with their analog days, WFSB-TV transmits from Avon Mountain, which straddles the Avon/West Hartford line, a few miles west of Hartford.

Maybe you'd get WZME-TV channel 43 and WEDW-TV (PBS) channel 49 from Bridgeport? New Haven has WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 and WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 (but goes by "MY TV 9" on air).
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post #525 of 536 Old 06-28-2017, 09:18 AM
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Dix Hills...is that in NY or NJ? Sorry...I've seen Fort Dix signs on the New Jersey Turnpike. I know the only channel 3 you may have picked up there would've been Philadelphia and not Hartford!

As for present-day channel 3 of Hartford, you likely wouldn't pick it up. I think they're on the same digital channel as WCBS-TV, which is 33. As with their analog days, WFSB-TV transmits from Avon Mountain, which straddles the Avon/West Hartford line, a few miles west of Hartford.

Maybe you'd get WZME-TV channel 43 and WEDW-TV (PBS) channel 49 from Bridgeport? New Haven has WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 and WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 (but goes by "MY TV 9" on air).
Dix Hills, NY (Suffolk County). The Giants were on CBS back in the late 60's / early 70's when he moved there, so it was WFSB (or its predecessor) on RF-3. Definitely not KYW from Philly, which was an NBC affiliate at the time, IIRC. (Have family in coal country, too).

I live on the South Shore near JFK, and I can pick up WZME with my antenna pointing west to ESB, so I think he may have a shot to get Connecticut TV from his location.

When I was a kid (early 80's), I used to get a snowy picture (and sound) of WTAF from Philly on Long Island South Shore after dad put up the new arial. They re-ran Scooby Doo where no station in NY did...
Yes, times have changed, but I still think it's worth a try..
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post #526 of 536 Old 06-28-2017, 09:36 AM
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I turned the antenna to about 26 degrees. I still get CBS and WLNY and the Spanish channels like before, and now I get NBC and PBS out of connecticut during the day and night. Yesterday morning I was picking up all kinds of Connecticut channels, and even one that I think was out of Rhode Island, but during the day it's only those few. I'm going to try other positions in the attic and see if anything changes.

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post #527 of 536 Old 06-28-2017, 01:06 PM
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I turned the antenna to about 26 degrees. I still get CBS and WLNY and the Spanish channels like before, and now I get NBC and PBS out of connecticut during the day and night. Yesterday morning I was picking up all kinds of Connecticut channels, and even one that I think was out of Rhode Island, but during the day it's only those few. I'm going to try other positions in the attic and see if anything changes.

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Go outdoors. Use a good quality pre-amp. Even if you don't make the installation permanent, the roof itself may be blocking much signal.
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post #528 of 536 Old 06-29-2017, 03:19 PM
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Go outdoors. Use a good quality pre-amp. Even if you don't make the installation permanent, the roof itself may be blocking much signal.
I guess I'm going to try this weekend.

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post #529 of 536 Old 07-03-2017, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post
WJLP-DT broadcasts on Channel 3.
WABC-DT broadcasts on Channel 7.
WPIX-DT broadcasts on Channel 11.
WNET-DT broadcasts on Channel 13.

These are a few stations where their RF signal matches their ID, so you will need a VHF antenna to pick them up. If you want WJLP for MeTV, you will need a VHF antenna that can pick of RF-3. It will be wide, and will be difficult to work with in an attic.

WNBC-DT sold their license in the spectrum auction and it is assumed they will move that programming over to Telemundo.

One other thing is frequency and how radio waves at that frequency interact with the environment. The higher the frequency, the more susceptible the signal is to trees / leaves. And the lower the frequency, the more the beam can bend and refract around things. It's never that easy...

What can you pick up from Connecticut?

Also read this:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

And yet one more thing... If you can receive FM Radio from the top of the ESB, you should be able to get some type of TV signal for the VHF stations with a proper antenna.
Hmm, that link you posted says if you're in the shadow of a building you should point your antenna at the top of the building. Is that true or trees also? I guess it won't hurt to try it.

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post #530 of 536 Old 07-22-2017, 12:18 PM
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So I finally got up on the roof with my CM4228 (old version) and RCA preamp.
Now picking up 30 channels during the day and 60 at night. A lot of them are Spanish, Chinese and Korean though, and PBS out of LI, NJ and CT. But I am getting more than I thought I would.

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post #531 of 536 Old 07-24-2017, 01:40 PM
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So I finally got up on the roof with my CM4228 (old version) and RCA preamp.
Now picking up 30 channels during the day and 60 at night. A lot of them are Spanish, Chinese and Korean though, and PBS out of LI, NJ and CT. But I am getting more than I thought I would.
So what channels are you picking up and from what direction?
If you are getting NJTV (50.1), I imagine you shoudl be picking up TV from the ESB / 4TS...

What can you pull in from across the Sound?
Do you have specs for the pre-amp? (i.e. - Noise Levels?)

The 4228 is UHF only. There are four stations in NYC using VHF (3, 7, 11, & 13).
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post #532 of 536 Old 07-24-2017, 03:29 PM
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So what channels are you picking up and from what direction?
If you are getting NJTV (50.1), I imagine you shoudl be picking up TV from the ESB / 4TS...

What can you pull in from across the Sound?
Do you have specs for the pre-amp? (i.e. - Noise Levels?)

The 4228 is UHF only. There are four stations in NYC using VHF (3, 7, 11, & 13).
Sorry, I have the 4221 not 4228. Doeant change the no VHF thing, but still, don't know why I typed that lol. NJTV comes in at night only.

Anyway, right now at 6 PM with the overcast skies, this is what I can pull in.

Turned towards NYC:
2 WCBS
5 WNYW
21 WLIW
25 NYLIFE
41 WXTV
43 WZME
47 WNJU
55 WLNY
67 WFTY
68 WFUT
And all their subs of course.
All are between 50 and 70% signal strength on my LG TV. Get occasional pixelation on many channels

Pointed towards CT this is what I get in daytime:
2 WCBS
3 WFSB
20 WCCT
26 ION (heavy pixelation, better at night)
30 WVIT
43 WZME
49 WEDW
55 WLNY
59 WCTX
65 WEDY
67 WFTY
The CT channels come in with better signal strength than the NYC channels. And I pull in more at night from NYC, and better strength.
At night I can get NBC, WOR, ION, and some Chinese and Korean channels and maybe more if I remember correctly. I'll have to scan again tonight.

Strange thing is before I mounted the antenna on the roof I brought it out on the deck and with some poles from an old trampoline I hoisted it up to around the height it is now and hooked it up to a small insignia tv I brought outside and was able to pull in 7.1 WABC at night. Haven't seen it since though.
Many of the other NY channels will only reach 25% on the LG signal meter but the TV won't lock on to a signal until it hits about 28%

The preamp is RCA TVPRAMP1Z
22db gain uhf and supposedly 3 nf



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post #533 of 536 Old 07-25-2017, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay Stone View Post
Sorry, I have the 4221 not 4228. Doeant change the no VHF thing, but still, don't know why I typed that lol. NJTV comes in at night only.

Anyway, right now at 6 PM with the overcast skies, this is what I can pull in.

Turned towards NYC:
2 WCBS
5 WNYW
21 WLIW
25 NYLIFE
41 WXTV
43 WZME
47 WNJU
55 WLNY
67 WFTY
68 WFUT
And all their subs of course.
All are between 50 and 70% signal strength on my LG TV. Get occasional pixelation on many channels

Pointed towards CT this is what I get in daytime:
2 WCBS
3 WFSB
20 WCCT
26 ION (heavy pixelation, better at night)
30 WVIT
43 WZME
49 WEDW
55 WLNY
59 WCTX
65 WEDY
67 WFTY
The CT channels come in with better signal strength than the NYC channels. And I pull in more at night from NYC, and better strength.
At night I can get NBC, WOR, ION, and some Chinese and Korean channels and maybe more if I remember correctly. I'll have to scan again tonight.

Strange thing is before I mounted the antenna on the roof I brought it out on the deck and with some poles from an old trampoline I hoisted it up to around the height it is now and hooked it up to a small insignia tv I brought outside and was able to pull in 7.1 WABC at night. Haven't seen it since though.
Many of the other NY channels will only reach 25% on the LG signal meter but the TV won't lock on to a signal until it hits about 28%

The preamp is RCA TVPRAMP1Z
22db gain uhf and supposedly 3 nf



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Awesome! Well it's good that you can get WFSB so you don't have to watch the Jets this fall...
The Pre-amp you write of has independent UHF and VHF inputs, so you could get a stand-alone VHF antenna for (RF) Channels 3, 7, 11, and 13 from NYC, and (RF) Channel 10 from New Haven.
You may also have luck with HDB8-X, which is two 4-bay UHF antennas where each half can be pointed in a different direction.
The CM-7777 pre-amp gets 30 dB of gain w/ < 2 dB noise.

You got lucky getting WABC when you did. You're gonna need a VHF antenna for those VHF stations. I do not believe any of them are moving with the re-pack.

What is your goal?
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post #534 of 536 Old 07-25-2017, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post
Awesome! Well it's good that you can get WFSB so you don't have to watch the Jets this fall...
The Pre-amp you write of has independent UHF and VHF inputs, so you could get a stand-alone VHF antenna for (RF) Channels 3, 7, 11, and 13 from NYC, and (RF) Channel 10 from New Haven.
You may also have luck with HDB8-X, which is two 4-bay UHF antennas where each half can be pointed in a different direction.
The CM-7777 pre-amp gets 30 dB of gain w/ < 2 dB noise.

You got lucky getting WABC when you did. You're gonna need a VHF antenna for those VHF stations. I do not believe any of them are moving with the re-pack.

What is your goal?
My goal is to go strictly OTA. I cancelled cable a few months ago and currently have DirecTV Now, and other services like Pluto. I'd like to dump Direct. The more channels I can pull in the easier it will be to convince the wife, although we can pull in ESCAPE channel on one of the subs and she loves those shows on there so that will make it easier. I'll look further into the HDB8-X, though it was my understanding that nothing was better than the old style Channel master 4 and 8 bay bowties.
Is that it the case?
It's pretty easy for me to get up on the roof and turn the antenna when needed.

I consider myself pretty tech literate but I don't really have a grasp on tvfool readings and signal dbs and all that stuff.
I have sections of pole that fit into each other. Would it be worth it to raise the antenna another 3 feet?

Thanks for all your help.

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post #535 of 536 Old 07-25-2017, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay Stone View Post
My goal is to go strictly OTA. I cancelled cable a few months ago and currently have DirecTV Now, and other services like Pluto. I'd like to dump Direct. The more channels I can pull in the easier it will be to convince the wife, although we can pull in ESCAPE channel on one of the subs and she loves those shows on there so that will make it easier. I'll look further into the HDB8-X, though it was my understanding that nothing was better than the old style Channel master 4 and 8 bay bowties.
Is that it the case?
It's pretty easy for me to get up on the roof and turn the antenna when needed.

I consider myself pretty tech literate but I don't really have a grasp on tvfool readings and signal dbs and all that stuff.
I have sections of pole that fit into each other. Would it be worth it to raise the antenna another 3 feet?

Thanks for all your help.
Well, if your goal is to go OTA, then you WILL need a VHF antenna to get ABC (either from WABC or WNTH) and the CW (WPIX).

The 4221 has a UHF gain of 10dB. The HDB-8 is 23dB of gain when both sides are facing the same direction. You may even be able to find some sweet spot between NYC and CT where every UHF channel comes in perfect.

The additional 3 ft is worth a try. It's all about experimenting and determining what works in your location.


When comparing antennas, keep in mind that the spectrum auction is going to keep TV broadcasting below channel 36, so you are really going to care how an antenna performs at longer wavelengths (i.e. - lower frequencies).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html

Since TV will be below 600 MHz going forward, you want your antenna to excel in those areas.
You can also see how bad these UHF antennas are at picking up VHF...

At least you are doing this in the summer when the leaves are on the trees... I'd expect better reception once the leaves are gone.
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post #536 of 536 Old 07-25-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dstoffa View Post
Well, if your goal is to go OTA, then you WILL need a VHF antenna to get ABC (either from WABC or WNTH) and the CW (WPIX).

The 4221 has a UHF gain of 10dB. The HDB-8 is 23dB of gain when both sides are facing the same direction. You may even be able to find some sweet spot between NYC and CT where every UHF channel comes in perfect.

The additional 3 ft is worth a try. It's all about experimenting and determining what works in your location.


When comparing antennas, keep in mind that the spectrum auction is going to keep TV broadcasting below channel 36, so you are really going to care how an antenna performs at longer wavelengths (i.e. - lower frequencies).

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html

Since TV will be below 600 MHz going forward, you want your antenna to excel in those areas.
You can also see how bad these UHF antennas are at picking up VHF...

At least you are doing this in the summer when the leaves are on the trees... I'd expect better reception once the leaves are gone.
Thanks for all the info and the link. I've got some researching to do!

Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk
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