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Old 09-19-2011, 08:19 PM
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I know this may be more of a hardware question but it's also region specific (and I just stumbled onto this thread so I'm giving it a shot lol).

I'm up in Grand Rapids - actually ~7 miles south - and am attempting to get OTA channels for the first time in an attempt to get Sunday football games in HD . I've got a D* HR20 which is their HD receiver with an OTA tuner builtin and did some searching. Both antennaweb and TV Fool say channel 29 (which antennaweb lists as a Fox channel - not sure if they'd carry the Vikings game or not and if so whether it'd be in HD?) has the best chance of coming in as there's a tower only 16 miles from me.

So this weekend I started messing around building one of the antennas I read about in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265, specifically the 9 x 8.5" whiskers one from this link: http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweath...0Drawings.html. I hooked it up yesterday evening and ran through the HR20's setup but found that it doesn't even attempt to get channel 29 when I put in zip code 55744. I tried again and entered 55805 (Duluth) as a secondary market which gave me lots of other channels in the list - none of which come in as the antenna's still just propped up outside my house - but still no channel 29! One more time I put in a twin cities zip code and still didn't get 29 on the list?

I was able to get 4 substations of PBS on channel 31 though - a couple even in HD - which was a surprise since like I said the antenna is just propped on the side of the house (oh and I haven't built a reflector for it yet either) but I'm bummed that it's not trying for channel 29.

Any ideas? Am I missing something silly here?
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 View Post

Any ideas? Am I missing something silly here?

Channel 29 is a translator of KQDS, so it is a Fox station, and it does serve Grand Rapids (the transmitter is actually near Taconite), but it's still in analog, meaning there's no HD picture. This likely won't change anytime soon, as KQDS is not required to convert the station to digital until the end of 2015, and, even then, the requirement is just that the station be in digital, which doesn't necessarily mean HD.

If you live on relatively higher elevation south of Grand Rapids, you may have a shot of getting KQDS's signal from Duluth in HD with a good rooftop antenna mounted 30 feet or more above ground. That's really your only hope of getting Fox in HD with any sort of antenna, and you would still need to have quite a lot of luck for it to work.
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Old 09-20-2011, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by agus0103 View Post

Channel 29 is a translator of KQDS, so it is a Fox station, and it does serve Grand Rapids (the transmitter is actually near Taconite), but it's still in analog, meaning there's no HD picture. This likely won't change anytime soon, as KQDS is not required to convert the station to digital until the end of 2015, and, even then, the requirement is just that the station be in digital, which doesn't necessarily mean HD.

If you live on relatively higher elevation south of Grand Rapids, you may have a shot of getting KQDS's signal from Duluth in HD with a good rooftop antenna mounted 30 feet or more above ground. That's really your only hope of getting Fox in HD with any sort of antenna, and you would still need to have quite a lot of luck for it to work.

Thanks for the information! So even if I could get it to come in it wouldn't be HD... I was afraid of that but was hopeful I'll have to play around and see if I have any luck getting Duluth stations with the reflector added and mounted on the roof (which will be ~30 ft up but)
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:50 AM
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Metv replacing RTV on WDIO/WIRT
http://www.wdio.com/article/stories/...html?cat=10335

DULUTH, Minn. – November 7, 2011 – Me-TV (Memorable Entertainment Television), the new digital classic television network from Weigel Broadcasting Co. and distributed by Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Studios Inc. (MGM) is coming to the Northland, launching November 28 on Channels 10.2 in Duluth and 13.2 in Hibbing. Me-TV has now surpassed the 60% national clearance mark.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:49 PM
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Better late than never (courtesy of northpine)

After a two-and-a-half year wait, the FCC has granted WDSE/8 (Duluth) a UHF translator on channel 38. WDSE requested the UHF translator a month after the digital transition in 2009, saying some viewers using indoor antennas reported reception problems after WDSE moved digital broadcasts from UHF to VHF. The new translator will use 15kW and operate on the same UHF channel WDSE had occupied during the DTV transition.
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:02 PM
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Probably had to wait for Canadian approval.

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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Old 03-03-2012, 12:48 PM
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I dont understand why?
38 is what they used pre-conversion and this is just a fill in 15kw translator. Canada is a good 150 miles up the highway
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:10 PM
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Why? Because the 19 dBu F(50,10) interference contour crosses into Canada.

http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...3&site=1&int=Y

Note the green line.

The treaty with Canada gives them the right to approve or disapprove any station whose 19 dBu F(50,10) interference contour crosses over Canadian territory.

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Old 10-24-2012, 03:11 PM
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Duluth locals launched on Directv today

KDLH CBS 3
KBJR NBC 6
WDSE PBS 8
WDIO ABC 10
KQDS FOX 21

supposedly that religious station KCWV is launching too (assume in MPEG4 SD) but D* site doesnt reflect that station on there
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:56 PM
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Ladies and Gentlemen. I need your help. My sister lives in Duluth, She is using a old 26 inch tube TV with a charter SD cable box. I'm trying to help her out from Phoenix AZ. I haven't been to Duluth in 20 years, she usually visits me here in January for some reason.... I am buying her a 32 inch HDTV and would like her to actually see HDTV. What does she have for options. She is in a North facing apartment with no satellite view. So it is Charter or over the air. If she takes Charter coax to back of TV any idea what channels she would get in HD. It looks like a Charter HD box is a 5 dollar a month upgrade. Or should I just have her get SD from Charter and get her a cheap OTH antenna. I remember years ago that the antennas where all together at the top of the hill. Last question, are the HD channels all UHF or are some still VHF like they are here in Phoenix? Thanks in advance for any help... Well answered part of my question antenna web shows only 5? HD Channels clustered 2 miles from her address.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:15 AM
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My sis lives on Park Point and they can see the antenna towers. Reception for them OTA is easy without much of an antenna. Coat hanger would probably work.
Two of the stations there are VHF as you probably noticed at AntennaWeb.

If the HDTV has a QAM tuner, she might be able to just connect the Charter coax, scan for stations and get the locals that way.

Brian...reporting from the left coast...
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Old 11-24-2012, 03:24 PM
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Over-the-air digital reception from Park Point with an indoor VHF/UHF antenna should be no problem - she'll get 13 channels, 5 of them in HD. She can also get the same channels by plugging the Charter cable feed directly into her TV. If she needs the box to get premium channels but doesn't want to upgrade to an HD box, she could split the incoming signal, sending one coax cable directly to the TV and the other to the cable box. Then hook the cable box to the TV with the A/V inputs.

This is the (mostly current) list of what you get from Charter in Duluth with a QAM tuner:
4.1 KDLH (CBS HD)
4.2 KDLH-DT2 (CW)
5.1 KBJR (NBC HD)
5.2 KBJR-DT2 (My)
11.1 KQDS (FOX HD)
12.1 WDSE (Second Chance 8.2)
12.2 WDSE (PBS HD 8.1)
12.3 WDSE (Create 8.3)
12.4 WDSE (MN Channel 8.4)
13.1 WDIO (ABC HD)
13.2 WDIO-DT2 (Me-TV)
23.11 EWTN
23.16 ShopNBC
49.6 PPV Previews
72.13 TV Guide Channel
74.11 INSP
76.1 PACT 7
76.2 PACT 14
76.3 PACT 16
76.4 PACT 20
76.5 Superior Public Access 7
76.6 Superior Public Access - calendar announcements
76.7 Superior School District
76.8 Superior Public Access 16
76.9 Duluth School District
76.10 SD Test pattern
76.11 HSN
76.12 QVC
76.13 C-SPAN
77.4 WisconsinEye
78.3 TBS
80.54 EWTN
80.55 Ion (national feed)
80.57 C-SPAN2
80.58 C-SPAN3
80.60 TBN
92.3 TV Guide Channel
98.1 Charter Main Street
98.7 TV Guide Channel without listings
98.10 WGN America
98.12 Paid programming
99.1 KQDS (FOX) 4:3 SD
99.2 WDSE-DT1 (PBS) 4:3 SD
99.4 KDLH (CBS) 4:3 SD
99.6 KBJR (NBC) 4:3 SD
99.7 WDIO (ABC) 4:3 SD
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:04 PM
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Thanks, I'm stupid I didn't even think about a QAM tuner when I bought the TV. I need to check. She isn't out at Park Point she is back the other way on the hill top 2 miles North West. I will need to work with her. I know she was just going to take coax out of the SD Box.eek.gif I think they said the HD box is only 5 dollars more so that would be an option. She says cable system is bad in her apartment building. I think she may need a Electronics intervention. I built her PC for her I can do some fine tuning. I haven't been to Duluth since 1990 and I remember the Northern lights where pretty. I might have to take one of those cheap Allegient air flights from Mesa to Duluth after the holidays when things slow down.. If you guys see a fool in a T-shirt wind breaker and tennis shoes shivering uncontrollably drinking a half frozen bottle of Corona say hello. Thanks again.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by aland12345 View Post

Thanks, I'm stupid I didn't even think about a QAM tuner when I bought the TV. I need to check. She isn't out at Park Point she is back the other way on the hill top 2 miles North West. I will need to work with her. I know she was just going to take coax out of the SD Box.eek.gif I think they said the HD box is only 5 dollars more so that would be an option. She says cable system is bad in her apartment building. I think she may need a Electronics intervention. I built her PC for her I can do some fine tuning. I haven't been to Duluth since 1990 and I remember the Northern lights where pretty. I might have to take one of those cheap Allegient air flights from Mesa to Duluth after the holidays when things slow down.. If you guys see a fool in a T-shirt wind breaker and tennis shoes shivering uncontrollably drinking a half frozen bottle of Corona say hello. Thanks again.
Most new HD TVs have a QAM tuner so the one you bought probably does too. The likelyhood that all the channels Jon listed will be there forever is not too probable. Rumors have it that even the locals from cable will be scrambled eventually. For 5 bucks the HD box from the cable company would probably be a good idea. She is already used to using cable so may be an easier out for her.
If you decide to try OTA, I would try a simple rabbit ears antenna to start.

For those of us expats who grew up in Duluth, a wonderful site to check from time to time is http://www.duluthharborcam.com/. I travel back to Duluth a couple times every five years. Once in the summer to visit, class reunion and relatives, and once in a while in the winter to remind me why I like living in warmer climates.

Have a nice trip.................brrrrrrrr:D

Brian...reporting from the left coast...
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon Ellis View Post

Over-the-air digital reception from Park Point with an indoor VHF/UHF antenna should be no problem - she'll get 13 channels, 5 of them in HD. She can also get the same channels by plugging the Charter cable feed directly into her TV. If she needs the box to get premium channels but doesn't want to upgrade to an HD box, she could split the incoming signal, sending one coax cable directly to the TV and the other to the cable box. Then hook the cable box to the TV with the A/V inputs.
This is the (mostly current) list of what you get from Charter in Duluth with a QAM tuner:
Wow, that is amazing. Here in Santa Rosa, north of San Francisco we get maybe a dozen channels with a QAM tuner using Comcast cable.

Off topic: It just occurred to me that when I lived and worked in Duluth, I worked under Rod Ellis at Burroughs Corp. and you could be a relative of his. I know that he also moved to California and is no longer with us. Sad, he was a wonderful guy.

Brian...reporting from the left coast...
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:03 AM
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Nope, no relation to Rod Ellis or any of the other Ellis' in this area. My version of the Ellis family came from Iowa.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:25 PM
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Absolutely do NOT leave your Liquid Crystal screen TV up North. Our friends did, came back to a shattered screen.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:54 AM
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Has anybody noticed the awful PQ on WDSE-DT1? According to my TV, it is supposed to be 720p, but it never seems that way. PBS North would be a lot better if they would do it like they did six or seven years ago - from 6 pm to 12 am, close down their two other digital subchannels and air the raw PBS HD feed in 1080i quality.

Also, KCWV-DT appears to be wasting bandwidth by just transmitting one 480i channel.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:00 PM
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I know PBS's big programs like Nature, Frontline, etc... sure seem pretty good.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

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Old 10-07-2013, 09:45 AM
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When will ThisTV and Antenna TV coming to Duluth?
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Old 10-07-2013, 02:30 PM
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Who and what ?

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

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Old 10-07-2013, 03:09 PM
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When will ThisTV and Antenna TV coming to Duluth?

Call your local stations and ask them to add the multi-cast channels. They need a reason to do stuff like that and a sufficient expression of interest (to them) is what it takes.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:06 AM
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KBJR & KDLH sold to Quincy Corporation.

per northpine
Quincy Newspapers is expanding to another Upper Midwest market with the purchase of NBC affiliate KBJR/6.1 (Superior-Duluth) and satellite KRII/11 (Chisholm) from Granite Broadcasting. KBJR also operates CBS affiliate KDLH/3.1 (Duluth), which will be sold from Malara Broadcasting to SagamoreHill Broadcasting and continue to be operated by KBJR through a shared services agreement. Sale prices were not immediately announced but will likely be revealed when documents are filed with the FCC. The stations also carry MyNetworkTV and CW+ on subchannels. Quincy is also buying Granite stations in Peoria, IL and Binghamton, NY and a Malara station in Fort Wayne, IN; Granite is also in the process of selling its Detroit and Buffalo stations to Scripps and its Fort Wayne station to SagamoreHill, leaving it with stations in San Francisco and Syracuse, NY. Quincy will have operations in 14 TV markets when the deal closes, including Quincy, Cedar Rapids-Waterloo, Sioux City, Rochester (MN), La Crosse-Eau Claire, Wausau, Madison, and Rockford

Only thing I noticed is Quincy loves to associate with CW, MeTV and ThisTV. So you may see ThisTV in Duluth.
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:15 PM
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Hello. New here, and none to knowledgeable on the topics at hand. 

 

I found this thread while trying to solve a Picture quality problem with Over the air HD in Superior. OTA is our only source of non streaming TV.

 

We live in the UW area, and our home is a bit shadowed by the city county complex, but, we have an outside antenna that seems to have clear line of site to the Broadcast Tower farm on the hill across the bay. And, for much of the past few years we had a pretty good signal. But in the last couple, it seems, we have been getting intermittent data loss on the various 10s and PBS stations. When it happens the show becomes unwatchable, which is the nature of HD, I guess. 

 

I think, based upon my research, that our antenna is a 4221, on a short mast over the roof peak. Coax from there into the house, split to a few points in the house. I don't think this could be a cabling problem, but maybe? All the broadcast signals in the area originate at the antenna farm, correct? I ran across the term Back channel interference, but I don't know what exactly that is, or why it would impact us.. 

 

Any advise?

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Old 05-14-2014, 11:40 PM
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One thing to think about that may help isolate an issue is if you can figure out the relative timing of the change. Does it happen to align with changes that may have occurred in the signals being transmitted? There are certain key events that can change a signal. For instance many stations were broadcasting on a temporary UHF channel during the digital transition. Eventually they shut off their analog transmitter on their original frequency and switched over to broadcast their digital signal on that original broadcast frequency. Your 4221 is a great UHF antenna (IMHO), but if the broadcasters in your area are now broadcasting in the "10's" again your 4221 is just not going to be good at receiving that signal. I would certainly double-check what actual signal you should be trying to receive, and if it requires VHF you may just need an antenna designed for that. A quick look at antennaweb.org reveals that the "10's and PBS are your only stations that a 4221 should have trouble with as those are VHF stations. The rest of your locals are all UHF:

KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC
RF Channel: 19 (UHF)

KCWV-DT 27.1 MFT
RF Channel: 27 (UHF)

KDLH-DT 3.1 CBS
RF Channel: 33 (UHF)

KQDS-DT 21.1 FOX
RF Channel: 17 (UHF)

WDIO-DT 10.1 ABC
RF Channel: 10 (VHF!)

WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS
RF Channel: 8 (VHF!)

If that doesn't explain your changes in reception you can perhaps tie the changes to issues in the hardware at your end. Antennas age and can degrade or sometimes lose their aim. Preamplifiers can deteriorate over time. If you don't have a good preamp you may investigate getting one of those. The ones that use a power inserter and have the preamp at the antenna itself often work very well for weak signal conditions. If you are really close to the transmitter there could be an issue with too much signal from the transmitter. When these stations transitioned back to lower VHF frequencies this may have resulted in a larger received signal at your location. One simple thing that can degrade over time that is (relatively) easy to fix are the connections on the coaxial cable. Sometimes just taking these connections apart and cleaning them can make a noticeable improvement. If you want any personal recommendations taking these steps and trying to look at your signal strength before and after any work can make this type of ghost-hunting seem more understandable. It may remain somewhat magical what makes the signal work or not, but if you could look at it carefully enough there is almost always a real explanation that often doesn't involve atmospheric abnormalities or witchcraft. Best of luck!

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Old 05-18-2014, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by denyart View Post

One thing to think about that may help isolate an issue is if you can figure out the relative timing of the change. Does it happen to align with changes that may have occurred in the signals being transmitted? There are certain key events that can change a signal. For instance many stations were broadcasting on a temporary UHF channel during the digital transition. Eventually they shut off their analog transmitter on their original frequency and switched over to broadcast their digital signal on that original broadcast frequency. Your 4221 is a great UHF antenna (IMHO), but if the broadcasters in your area are now broadcasting in the "10's" again your 4221 is just not going to be good at receiving that signal. I would certainly double-check what actual signal you should be trying to receive, and if it requires VHF you may just need an antenna designed for that. A quick look at antennaweb.org reveals that the "10's and PBS are your only stations that a 4221 should have trouble with as those are VHF stations. The rest of your locals are all UHF:

KBJR-DT 6.1 NBC
RF Channel: 19 (UHF)

KCWV-DT 27.1 MFT
RF Channel: 27 (UHF)

KDLH-DT 3.1 CBS
RF Channel: 33 (UHF)

KQDS-DT 21.1 FOX
RF Channel: 17 (UHF)

WDIO-DT 10.1 ABC
RF Channel: 10 (VHF!)

WDSE-DT 8.1 PBS
RF Channel: 8 (VHF!)

If that doesn't explain your changes in reception you can perhaps tie the changes to issues in the hardware at your end. Antennas age and can degrade or sometimes lose their aim. Preamplifiers can deteriorate over time. If you don't have a good preamp you may investigate getting one of those. The ones that use a power inserter and have the preamp at the antenna itself often work very well for weak signal conditions. If you are really close to the transmitter there could be an issue with too much signal from the transmitter. When these stations transitioned back to lower VHF frequencies this may have resulted in a larger received signal at your location. One simple thing that can degrade over time that is (relatively) easy to fix are the connections on the coaxial cable. Sometimes just taking these connections apart and cleaning them can make a noticeable improvement. If you want any personal recommendations taking these steps and trying to look at your signal strength before and after any work can make this type of ghost-hunting seem more understandable. It may remain somewhat magical what makes the signal work or not, but if you could look at it carefully enough there is almost always a real explanation that often doesn't involve atmospheric abnormalities or witchcraft. Best of luck!


well, it is very interesting that both the channels 10 and PBS are in the VHF range, though I am not sure what it means. looking at this thread leads me to two thoughts. One is simply that I am not using an antenna with a broad enough spectrum, one is that I haven't grounded my mast.. (is that important??. it sounds important...)  Funny thing, I hardly think about this problem during the daylight, cause I don't watch much tv and almost none daytime. But my wife watches a lot in the evening, when it is too dark to go mess with any of this on the roof..

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Old 05-18-2014, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denyart View Post

... A quick look at antennaweb.org reveals that the "10's and PBS are your only stations that a 4221 should have trouble with as those are VHF stations. The rest of your locals are all UHF:

...

If that doesn't explain your changes in reception you can perhaps tie the changes to issues in the hardware at your end. ...


well, it is very interesting that both the channels 10 and PBS are in the VHF range, though I am not sure what it means. looking at this thread leads me to two thoughts. One is simply that I am not using an antenna with a broad enough spectrum, ...

 

Try posting a TVFool report for your location. Just typing in Superior, WI, it appears that the transmitters may be very close to you, maybe only 5 miles away. If that is so, you should not need an amplifier. Have you checked your coaxial cable connections and checked the VHF elements on your antenna for damage?

Are there any sources of possible RF interference in your home?

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Old 05-18-2014, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by veedon View Post
 

 

Try posting a TVFool report for your location. Just typing in Superior, WI, it appears that the transmitters may be very close to you, maybe only 5 miles away. If that is so, you should not need an amplifier. Have you checked your coaxial cable connections and checked the VHF elements on your antenna for damage?

Are there any sources of possible RF interference in your home?


well, I think this link will work..

Yes, 5 miles seems about right. range shouldn't be the issue. I haven't checked the cabling etc yet. Not sure which part the antenna is the VHF element. I have considered that, becasue the line of sight to the antenna farm goes directly over the city county complex. And on top of the city county complex are Police and Fire, and probably other repeaters.. Which could explain the intermittent nature of the interference.. Haven' figured a way to test that theory, short of getting a scanner... could bring my radio home from work, I suppose..

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Old 05-19-2014, 10:32 AM
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he said in the original post he had a 4221. There are no VHF elements n a 4221. It is a UHF antenna. That was my main point.

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Old 05-19-2014, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokigami View Post

Hello. New here, and none to knowledgeable on the topics at hand. 

I found this thread while trying to solve a Picture quality problem with Over the air HD in Superior. OTA is our only source of non streaming TV.

We live in the UW area, and our home is a bit shadowed by the city county complex, but, we have an outside antenna that seems to have clear line of site to the Broadcast Tower farm on the hill across the bay. And, for much of the past few years we had a pretty good signal. But in the last couple, it seems, we have been getting intermittent data loss on the various 10s and PBS stations. When it happens the show becomes unwatchable, which is the nature of HD, I guess. 

I think, based upon my research, that our antenna is a 4221, on a short mast over the roof peak. Coax from there into the house, split to a few points in the house. I don't think this could be a cabling problem, but maybe? All the broadcast signals in the area originate at the antenna farm, correct? I ran across the term Back channel interference, but I don't know what exactly that is, or why it would impact us.. 

A CM4221 can receive Channel 7 to 13 provided you are close to the antenna farm. My guess is that the 300 ohms to 75 ohms balun you have installed at the antenna has deteriorated being so close to Lake Superior. Other posters have stated the spade lugs was so rusted, it fell off when touched. Replacing the balun and checking the tightness of the coax connectors will probably fix the problems you are seeing.
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