Grand Rapids, MI - HDTV - Page 163 - AVS Forum
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Local HDTV Info and Reception > Grand Rapids, MI - HDTV
Kirby Baker's Avatar Kirby Baker 02:24 PM 10-14-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJSupreme View Post

II know they got screwed on their digital channel location, but I dont' understand how it can be fine for a month or so and then we get this unwatchable mush for 2 weeks straight.

Their location on digital 2 has nothing to do with the crappy picture. Guess I am fortunate that I can get WSBT HD via antenna. I wonder how much bandwidth they are allocating for CW7. Anyone have a number?

rcoe's Avatar rcoe 02:37 PM 10-14-2007
It is a wwmt problem their HD has always been pretty much awful. I get the audio dropouts with comcast on the HD programs I record.

Just switched from the Fox game which looked great to the late game on wwmt and it looks horrible. I switched over to OTA thinking Comcast might have something to do with it, but it looks the same using either input.

Well at least they are improving ever so slowly, I remember when at least once a week they would start a show in SD and let it get halfway thru before switching to HD.

It is really sad that they would let their signal go out looking so bad.
mhdiab's Avatar mhdiab 03:19 PM 10-14-2007
WWMT - improving?? They didn't have this much macroblocking last year if I recall correctly. I almost rather have people forget to go HD and know that it is the human error vs a horrible picture like this knowing that this is what is their standard...... They suck and I said it before (when they wouldn't sign with Charter and Comcast) that the only way to get to them is by writing the local advertisers on their network. You simply explain to thsoe advertisers that the network sucks on HD and you therefor watch other channels... I did it in the past - not sure if it worked, but it was kind of fun (didn't take very long and only 8 stamps at 35 cents each)...
lethal_injection's Avatar lethal_injection 03:21 PM 10-14-2007
WMMT's HD quality is horrible. Right now I am watching the Patriots v Cowboys and when the camera moves to follow a player the pixelation takes over. I am watching it via Directv. My buddies have Dish and Charter and say they have the same problem. Must be on CBS's end. I would suggest going to cbs.com and scrolling down to the bottom of the page and click on feedback and leave a complaint.

Also I am very upset Directv doesn't offer NBC is HD in West Michigan. Anyone know if/when Directv will offer NBC HD in our area?
Kirby Baker's Avatar Kirby Baker 03:27 PM 10-14-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by lethal_injection View Post

WMMT's HD quality is horrible. Right now I am watching the Patriots v Cowboys and when the camera moves to follow a player the pixelation takes over. I am watching it via Directv. My buddies have Dish and Charter and say they have the same problem. Must be on CBS's end. I would suggest going to cbs.com and scrolling down to the bottom of the page and click on feedback and leave a complaint.

Sorry, but this macroblocking issue is solely WWMT HD. I am watching via WSBT HD from South Bend and its leaps and bounds better. I am not saying that WSBT has no macroblocking, but its so little that the picture looks almost perfect compared to WWMT HD.
Airic's Avatar Airic 03:44 PM 10-14-2007
Watching the game here in Grandville on WWMT HD (via Comcast) and also getting TERRIBLE picture quality. This is now the second week in a row! My parents live up in Marquette and get their cable CBS station out of Wisconsin, and it's flawless. What's up with WWMT? Do they just have poor/dated equipment and not want to invest in something better? No other HD channel doesn't have nearly the problems that this one does.
rcoe's Avatar rcoe 04:00 PM 10-14-2007
Well I use the term improving loosely.

The picture was better last year, but the other issues were just as bad or worse. They would start the HD halfway thru or forget to enable the digital sound so you only got ambient sounds.

Either way I wish they would get their act together as cbs has some very good HD programming.
labba's Avatar labba 04:11 PM 10-14-2007
My wife walks by as I'm watching the game on WWMT and asks why it's not in HD. Good question. I don't know what to call it but this isn't HD.

I agree that they were screwed up last year because of poor operations and poor management decisions (comcast) before that. Now...who knows?

Hey...how about if the Big Ten network carried the CBS network feed direct on the other 6 days? I might pay for that.
labba's Avatar labba 04:16 PM 10-14-2007
One more post...on the wwmt web page there's an ad that starts with "Happy HD" and goes on to be for a Blue-Ray player. I guess they're saying you're not going to see HD on WWMT, so you might as well rent a movie.
rcoe's Avatar rcoe 05:15 PM 10-14-2007
Does anyone have a contact email for wwmt so that we might contact them and express our displeasure?
Kamakzie's Avatar Kamakzie 05:20 PM 10-14-2007
I'm watching the Cowboys/Cheaters game on WWMT and it looks putrid.
Kib's Avatar Kib 05:35 PM 10-14-2007
Let me add one more voice from the audience that WWMT appearently now does not give a crap about...

Listen, we know damn well what the NFL on CBS should look like, we know there are a lot more skilled folks than yourselves working thier asses off to provide an execellent product, so whatever your problem is locally, get over it. The network didn't drop all that cash in aquiring rights for the programming, and more money to upgrade the facilty in New York only to have you guys run it in the toilet because of whatever petty problems you might be having with your staff and/or managment.

Suck it up folks, if someone needs to get canned, can 'em, if you need help dialing in the gear, get some help, in short take just the slightest bit of pride in the work you get paid for and the privilege of being a broadcaster. If you can't do that then you have no business being there, and you don't deserve our support as a member of our community.

[EDIt: Just added a post to the programming thread, I'm pretty sure folks from the network monitor things over there]
newy's Avatar newy 06:40 PM 10-14-2007
Anybody else have audio problems on wood tv 8. The last two friday night showings of Las Vegas have had strange audio problems. I am watching it off of charger qam. The last two shows part of the show had part of the audio. Background audio is there but voices are gone for part of the show. Strangest thing I have seen yet. Anybody else see anything like this?
Davi323's Avatar Davi323 06:48 PM 10-14-2007
I had to stop watching the Saints/Seahawks game because sound kept dropping out...and WWMT was horrible today...it was extremely blocky, just horrible. I watched the Cowboys/Patriots on my analog TV instead. Its a sad, sad day when the analog signal is more watchable than the supposedly HD version.
kevin79's Avatar kevin79 07:43 PM 10-14-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by newy View Post

Anybody else have audio problems on wood tv 8. The last two friday night showings of Las Vegas have had strange audio problems. I am watching it off of charger qam. The last two shows part of the show had part of the audio. Background audio is there but voices are gone for part of the show. Strangest thing I have seen yet. Anybody else see anything like this?

I've seen this too. I also happened during parts of Chuck last Monday.
bonscott87's Avatar bonscott87 07:53 PM 10-14-2007
Everyone, please email WWMT about the horrid quality. Jim Steffey and copy the station manager. We have *got* to let them know that there are people that actually watch the HD signal and care about the quality.

I was watching the game via Sunday Ticket and the quality was awesome. Happened to switch to WWMT and I couldn't believe how bad it was.
millerbrad's Avatar millerbrad 08:36 PM 10-14-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by newy View Post

Anybody else have audio problems on wood tv 8. The last two friday night showings of Las Vegas have had strange audio problems. I am watching it off of charger qam. The last two shows part of the show had part of the audio. Background audio is there but voices are gone for part of the show. Strangest thing I have seen yet. Anybody else see anything like this?

Watching OTA. Had the same audio dropouts on Las Vegas that you mentioned for the last 2 weeks. I have yet to see a whole episode of Life without audio and/or video dropouts. And, I also heard the intermittent (about a second or two at a time) dropouts during Chuck.

I think TV8 was saying that it had something to do with the graphics they put up on the lower-right corner of the screen.
Kib's Avatar Kib 09:19 PM 10-14-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonscott87 View Post

Everyone, please email WWMT about the horrid quality. Jim Steffey and copy the station manager. We have *got* to let them know that there are people that actually watch the HD signal and care about the quality.

I was watching the game via Sunday Ticket and the quality was awesome. Happened to switch to WWMT and I couldn't believe how bad it was.

Anyone know the name of the GM and/or Station Mgr.? Email addresses not listed on the website, but a six-year old could figure it out given the naming conventions.
mhdiab's Avatar mhdiab 10:43 PM 10-14-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by newy View Post

Anybody else have audio problems on wood tv 8. The last two friday night showings of Las Vegas have had strange audio problems. I am watching it off of charger qam. The last two shows part of the show had part of the audio. Background audio is there but voices are gone for part of the show. Strangest thing I have seen yet. Anybody else see anything like this?


Yeah been like this for awhile - probably different than the one I asked if they future proofed about last week
At least WOOD tries to fix things - much appreciated and sure they will get it straight.

Emailed a bunch of sponsors that I found on the WWMT website - doubt that it will do anything, but worth a shot........
Kamakzie's Avatar Kamakzie 11:04 PM 10-14-2007
Last week they fixed the dropout problem on WWMT but now we have this new problem. 2009 can't come any sooner but I don't think the frequency change would make a difference in that macroblock problem.
Kirby Baker's Avatar Kirby Baker 05:06 AM 10-15-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamakzie View Post

Last week they fixed the dropout problem on WWMT but now we have this new problem. 2009 can't come any sooner but I don't think the frequency change would make a difference in that macroblock problem.

The audio problem is not entirely fixed. Unless Charter is introducing audio glitches into the stream. I've recorded several shows via QAM this past weekend, and there are audio glitches. They dont seem to affect most receivers, but it certain pisses off my B&K.
bonscott87's Avatar bonscott87 07:51 AM 10-15-2007
I personally haven't seen any audio problems since the report last week that they fixed it. Via DirecTV MPEG4.

I did email Jim this morning and he mentioned they planned to increase bandwidth to the HD signal during football to hopefully help the PQ. He also mentioned that he does watch this thread for issues so please post them but try to be constructive such as providing details like:
Provider (OTA, DirecTV, cable outlet)
Show
Time
Description of the problem


I know we all like to say "WWMT sucks" and I've been guilty myself, but let try not to go down that route and try to help. Personally I wish they had no SD subchannel as that is the root cause of many of the problems I'm sure. Starve the bandwidth to HD and this is what happens.

His email is jsteffey@wwmt.com (posted by his suggestion) if you'd like to contact him about your experiences.
Kirby Baker's Avatar Kirby Baker 08:18 AM 10-15-2007
Good post Scott. Increasing the bandwidth might help, but it shouldnt be necessary I wouldnt think. Several months ago I posted in this thread the bitrate comparisons of WWMT (via Charter) and WSBT (via OTA) and WSBT was no higher in average bitrate than WWMT. Yet the macroblocking is much more prevalent on WWMT. Is this due to different equipment at WSBT and WWMT? Different settings? I dont know the answer to this, wish I did.

As for the audio issues I have, it could be equipment at Charter causing them. The only way I could verify this would be if someone could share with me a sample of video from WWMT captured from another method (Comcast, OTA, or different Charter headend). And if it turns out to be Charter's issue, I may as well give up on ever getting a decent signal and just rely on OTA for WSBT.

I dont suppose that after the analog shutoff that subchannels could be moved to their own frequency could they? I mean we are doubling up on freqs right now by using analog and digital, so it would seem reasonable that you could shift a subchannel over to an open frequency, and even broadcast its PSIP such that CW7 could be sent on say physical channel 6, virtual 3.2. Or would that confuse receivers/tuners?
bonscott87's Avatar bonscott87 09:52 AM 10-15-2007
DirecTV launched another 10 HD channels today and FSN Detroit was amoung them. It also appears to be a 24x7 channel, upconverting SD to 720p. This is good news if it holds because the SD away games should look better. First HD game I see on the schedule looks to be next week.
Kamakzie's Avatar Kamakzie 10:23 AM 10-15-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonscott87 View Post

DirecTV launched another 10 HD channels today and FSN Detroit was amoung them. It also appears to be a 24x7 channel, upconverting SD to 720p. This is good news if it holds because the SD away games should look better. First HD game I see on the schedule looks to be next week.

WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!
tji's Avatar tji 10:38 AM 10-15-2007
I agree with Kirby's comments on the bandwidth allocation. More bandwidth is always nice, especially for 1080i content, but I think the core problem is more likely in the encoder. Either its settings, or its capabilities. Since they have tweaked it in the past to improve its performance, I am guessing it is capable of much better than we have been seeing. But, it appears to need a lot of care and monitoring.

Also, from previous issues with WWMT, I think that they monitor less on the weekends, when all these MPEG-challenging sporting events come up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby Baker View Post

I dont suppose that after the analog shutoff that subchannels could be moved to their own frequency could they? I mean we are doubling up on freqs right now by using analog and digital, so it would seem reasonable that you could shift a subchannel over to an open frequency, and even broadcast its PSIP such that CW7 could be sent on say physical channel 6, virtual 3.2. Or would that confuse receivers/tuners?

I think available frequencies are at a real premium. The FCC's goal with the conversion is to free up a lot of spectrum. So, I doubt they will be allowing any expansion.

But, after the conversion, I am wondering if they will really switch to an HD primary signal. I think they will still see SD cable and satellite viewers as their primary concern, and the only real change for them will be freeing up a transmitter at their broadcast tower. They'll still broadcast digital/HD, but it will remain unimportant to them.

I guess ultimately money talks, their paying customers are the people who buy the commercials. Once they can charge a premium for HD commercials, they will start caring about HD broadcasts. That will happen once the percentage of HD viewers goes up. -- Which is another interesting issue.. maybe if there were examples of the commercials getting bad macroblocking they would be more interested in solving the problem.
terryfoster's Avatar terryfoster 12:25 PM 10-15-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonscott87 View Post

I did email Jim this morning and he mentioned they planned to increase bandwidth to the HD signal during football to hopefully help the PQ. ... Personally I wish they had no SD subchannel as that is the root cause of many of the problems I'm sure. Starve the bandwidth to HD and this is what happens.

I don't know how friendly Freedom Communications and Newport Television are, but it may be helpful for engineers from WWMT to speak with some at WKRC since both stations are CBS affiliates along with carrying the CW as a subchannel. WKRC has been quite successful in keeping a good balance between the two channels. Sure it would be better to not have a subchannel, but I do think WKRC has done a good job with what they have.
Kib's Avatar Kib 02:56 PM 10-15-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonscott87 View Post

I personally haven't seen any audio problems since the report last week that they fixed it. Via DirecTV MPEG4.

I did email Jim this morning and he mentioned they planned to increase bandwidth to the HD signal during football to hopefully help the PQ. He also mentioned that he does watch this thread for issues so please post them but try to be constructive such as providing details like:
Provider (OTA, DirecTV, cable outlet)
Show
Time
Description of the problem


I know we all like to say "WWMT sucks" and I've been guilty myself, but let try not to go down that route and try to help. Personally I wish they had no SD subchannel as that is the root cause of many of the problems I'm sure. Starve the bandwidth to HD and this is what happens.

His email is jsteffey@wwmt.com (posted by his suggestion) if you'd like to contact him about your experiences.

Thanks for the post, good stuff !!!

I too, tend to go off on these folks. Sorry for the harsh rhetoric in the past but I still maintain there's a responsibility on the part of the station to provide thier audience, sponsors, network and shareholders the best possible effort in insuring a quality service. Seems like a reasonable request given the chosen line of work.

Again, thanks for passing along the information...
budone's Avatar budone 04:18 PM 10-15-2007
When writing WWMT, also copy CBS corporate offices in New York.
lethal_injection's Avatar lethal_injection 04:29 PM 10-15-2007
YES FOX BUSINESS IN HD...

Notes: This is NOT sarcasm. I <3 Cavuto.
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