Lafayette, LA / Beaumont, TX / Lake Charles, LA - HDTV - Page 163 - AVS Forum
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post #4861 of 9999 Old 05-14-2009, 07:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenninCarlyss View Post

I rescanned last night about 10PM. For the first time I picked up Baton Rouge Ch.2 WBRZ analog and all three digital subs. I also got WAFB Ch.9 analog but no digital. Lafayette's KLFY Ch.3 digital was strong, it fades in and out on me from day to day. I count on it for my CBS station. I am using a Winegard 9698P about 25' high without a rotor. It feeds a splitter to my Samsung 650 and two converter boxes that each feed three TV's. I am pointed roughly east to pick up KPLC NBC, KLTL PBS, KATC ABC, and KLFY CBS. I pick up FOX 29 off the side. I hope KLFY is going to boost their power after 6/12 since it so iffy now. I can always put an amplifier in if I have to. I canceled my cable service that I was using for the local stations because they don't send their signal in HD on the basic cable. I use Direct for my other stations. I am located about one mile south of I-10 mile marker 20, Sulphur exit. Thanks to all of you for your help in getting this set up.

Now you're DXing!

As time and $$$ permits, get a rotor and a CM 7777 pre-amp and you may be amazed at what you can bring in after installation. And witrh a rotor, you may find the Beaumont stations easier to recieve than Lafayette, especially under certain atmospheric conditions. I feel that is alway a good idea to have back-ups. After KBMT-DT channel 12 (ABC) maximizes, it may well exceed KATCs signal.

Your signal is split quite a few times it appears. Have you considered using a distribution amp? From what I understand, as a rule of thumb, each time you split the signal you are losing 3dB of signal strength, which is half of you signal. If you split it to go to 2 devices, then you have half of your signal goin to each device. Split it again, and you are down to 1/4 of your original signal. Split it again, and you are down to 1/8 of your signal coming in, etc.... Not counting coax loss.

BTW, KLFY is channel 10, not 3. 3 is KATC. I hope you are enjoying your experiences with antennas and OTA reception.

You may GET TO put an amplifier in... not have to.
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post #4862 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 07:13 AM
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I live in Carlyss about 2 miles from the Interstate. We have the same problems but I don't want to use a rotator. I put a distribution amp and it works great. Right now I am pointing east and pick up the same as you. I got the following email from John Scott, chief engineer from KPLC:

We are actually on the air at full power and have not missed a second. The problem this week is due to weather conditions that allow very strong interference from other television stations on our channel hundreds of miles away. Conditions like this happen every spring and fall but seldom this severe. UHF stations have shorter wavelengths with a more limited coverage area. They are not affected as much by these conditions so most of the powerful stations managed to stay viewable.



After all of the analog stations in the country leaves the air in about a month, we are almost doubling our digital power and moving the transmitting frequency to channel 7 where the analog was for over fifty years. We will be the most powerful VHF station in the state so problems with co-channel interference will likely be gone or only seen every few years.



Thank you,



John Scott

Chief Engineer

KPLC - KPLC-DT

Lake Charles

With KPLC doubling in power, we may be able to turn to the West and pick up KPLC on the back end of the antenna.
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post #4863 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzflash36 View Post

I live in Carlyss about 2 miles from the Interstate. We have the same problems but I don't want to use a rotator. I put a distribution amp and it works great. Right now I am pointing east and pick up the same as you. I got the following email from John Scott, chief engineer from KPLC:

We are actually on the air at full power and have not missed a second. The problem this week is due to weather conditions that allow very strong interference from other television stations on our channel hundreds of miles away. Conditions like this happen every spring and fall but seldom this severe. UHF stations have shorter wavelengths with a more limited coverage area. They are not affected as much by these conditions so most of the powerful stations managed to stay viewable.



After all of the analog stations in the country leaves the air in about a month, we are almost doubling our digital power and moving the transmitting frequency to channel 7 where the analog was for over fifty years. We will be the most powerful VHF station in the state so problems with co-channel interference will likely be gone or only seen every few years.



Thank you,



John Scott

Chief Engineer

KPLC - KPLC-DT

Lake Charles

With KPLC doubling in power, we may be able to turn to the West and pick up KPLC on the back end of the antenna.

That's some great news!
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post #4864 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 11:22 AM
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KPLC will not be the strongest station KW wise in the State of LA. WYES will be.
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post #4865 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 12:37 PM
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After reading Cat Lady's reply on trying Beaumont's TV stations post transition I have questions. Reading KBMT's FCC Applications they are at 316 KW ERP now on their analog signal. They propose to go to 160KW ERP post transition. How is the power distributed to their .1 and .2 subs? Is it the same 160 KW for each of them or do you divide by two or what? What is KBMT's digital power level now?

I see by KLFY's applications they had planned to go to 1000 KW but have changed to 20 KW post transition so my chances of getting KLFY on a regular basis post transition don't appear to be very good. I guess this is because they have been taken over by their debtors who don't want to spend money on the station.
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post #4866 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 12:51 PM
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We like to watch KPLC for the local news and weather. We live in the Lake Charles area.
Thanks,
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post #4867 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 01:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenninCarlyss View Post

After reading Cat Lady's reply on trying Beaumont's TV stations post transition I have questions. Reading KBMT's FCC Applications they are at 316 KW ERP now on their analog signal. They propose to go to 160KW ERP post transition. How is the power distributed to their .1 and .2 subs? Is it the same 160 KW for each of them or do you divide by two or what? What is KBMT's digital power level now?

I see by KLFY's applications they had planned to go to 1000 KW but have changed to 20 KW post transition so my chances of getting KLFY on a regular basis post transition don't appear to be very good. I guess this is because they have been taken over by their debtors who don't want to spend money on the station.

You are comparing apples and oranges. I am on blackberry right now. But when I get home, I will try to shed some light on thisN if no one else beats me to it.
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post #4868 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 02:15 PM
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I understand there is a difference in the signal strength between analog and digital that is about a 10:1 ratio. So KBMT's 300 KW analog signal is not as strong as the 160 KW digital signal and that is why you suggested I try KBMT post transition.
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post #4869 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

The cap is 160 kW at 305 meters above average terrain, so WAFB absolutely could not maximize to 160 kW due to the extra height they have.

EDIT: The hard limit for WAFB's height would be 49.1 kW, assuming no interference to surrounding stations.

- Trip

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenninCarlyss View Post

I understand there is a difference in the signal strength between analog and digital that is about a 10:1 ratio. So KBMT's 300 KW analog signal is not as strong as the 160 KW digital signal and that is why you suggested I try KBMT post transition.


The KBMT-DT ERP at 160 KW is more than twice as much as the KBMT-TV analog signal at 316 KW, and even this is apples and oranges. They are calculated diferently. One is measured as a peak ERP and the other is an average.

There are different limits of ERP according to how high an antenna is mounted on a tower. Therefore, the KBMT-DT signal will eventually have an ERP of 160 KW at 299 MAGL (I added the "L" just for Dr T ), while KPLC will be maxed at 31 KW from 450 MAGL.

What I don't understand is why two maxed analog adjacent channel stations cannot be maxed on digital, such as WVUE-DT channel 8 in NO and WAFB-DT channel 9 in BR.

The KBMT-DT signal is stronger because it is maxed at more than the original analog signal. KBMT is actually exceeding the coverage of the analog signal. That is in the public interest, because Lake Charles does not have an ABC station. But it may take KBMT a while to construct their final maxed facility, and we found out on the previous page.
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post #4870 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenninCarlyss View Post

After reading Cat Lady's reply on trying Beaumont's TV stations post transition I have questions. Reading KBMT's FCC Applications they are at 316 KW ERP now on their analog signal. They propose to go to 160KW ERP post transition. How is the power distributed to their .1 and .2 subs? Is it the same 160 KW for each of them or do you divide by two or what? What is KBMT's digital power level now?

I see by KLFY's applications they had planned to go to 1000 KW but have changed to 20 KW post transition so my chances of getting KLFY on a regular basis post transition don't appear to be very good. I guess this is because they have been taken over by their debtors who don't want to spend money on the station.

KLFY-DT is currently broadcasting on UHF channel 56. UHF digital channels can be maxed at 1,000 KW, whereas just for reference. analog UHF channels were maxed at 5,000 KW.

KLFY-DT, post transition, will be reverting to channel 10, its original VHF channel. Therefore, they will be limited to the rules covering VHF channels as was stated before with a hard max of 49.1 KW (Assuming no interference to other stations) from the height that KLFY broadcasts from of 529 MAGL. The KLFY-DT maximized signal will be 20.3 KW.

The digital streams for the main and sub-channels are all broadcast at the same ERP. They are all on the one carrier signal. If you get the main channel, you will get the subs as well every time, barring some corruption of the data.

Do you have a headache yet???
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post #4871 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat lady View Post

Therefore, they will be limited to the rules covering VHF channels as was stated before with a hard max of 49.1 KW (Assuming no interference to other stations) from the height that KLFY broadcasts from of 529 MAGL.

The hard limit at KLFY's height is 45.4 kW.

- Trip

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post #4872 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:29 PM
 
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[quote=buzflash36;16465359]I live in Carlyss about 2 miles from the Interstate. We have the same problems but I don't want to use a rotator. I put a distribution amp and it works great. Right now I am pointing east and pick up the same as you.

Just out of morbid curiosity, why don't you want to use a rotor? The network stations all have the same network programming, but carry different shows during the other times, and even some syndicated programming at different times of the day.

For example, KBTV carries Jeopardy (the only game show I watch) at an inconvenient time for me, so I watch Jeopardy on KVHP at 6:30. Much more convenient. Just an example.
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post #4873 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

The cap is 160 kW at 305 meters above average terrain, so WAFB absolutely could not maximize to 160 kW due to the extra height they have.

EDIT: The hard limit for WAFB's height would be 49.1 kW, assuming no interference to surrounding stations.

- Trip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

The hard limit at KLFY's height is 45.4 kW.

- Trip

So... there are different maxes for different VHF hi channels as well??? Or is this because of interference?

Now I'm getting a headache... I need a margarita, on the rocks, con sal y limon, por favor!
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post #4874 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat lady View Post

So... there are different maxes for different VHF hi channels as well??? Or is this because of interference?

Now I'm getting a headache...

As height goes up, power goes down. KLFY's tower is taller than WAFB's tower. Therefore, KLFY has a lower power cap.

- Trip

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post #4875 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

As height goes up, power goes down. KLFY's tower is taller than WAFB's tower. Therefore, KLFY has a lower power cap.

- Trip

I knew there were differences between 300 meters or so and the 500 meters or so, but I did not know there were differences between 509.9 meters and 529 meters...

19.1 meters difference. Which would give more coverage... the WAFB signal or the KLFY at max? Or is it negligible?

Ya learn something every day...
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post #4876 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat lady View Post

I knew there were differences between 300 meters or so and the 500 meters or so, but I did not know there were differences between 509.9 meters and 529 meters...

19.1 meters difference. Which would give more coverage... the WAFB signal or the KLFY at max? Or is it negligible?

Ya learn something every day...

It's determined by a formula. I could have sworn I'd linked you to the calculator I wrote on RabbitEars: http://www.rabbitears.info/calc.php

The goal is to keep the coverage as consistent as possible. 305m 160 kW is supposed to have the same coverage radius as 610m 30 kW. In reality, that's not what happens, but that's the goal.

- Trip

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post #4877 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 03:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

It's determined by a formula. I could have sworn I'd linked you to the calculator I wrote on RabbitEars: http://www.rabbitears.info/calc.php

The goal is to keep the coverage as consistent as possible. 305m 160 kW is supposed to have the same coverage radius as 610m 30 kW. In reality, that's not what happens, but that's the goal.

- Trip

You may have linked it to me Trip. I am sorry if I mised it the first time. My bad. But I have the link now, and I thank you.

My mom says it gets worse as you get older...
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post #4878 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 04:42 PM
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Just to clarify on the subchannel thing... no matter how many subchannels there are it is all on signal coming to your TV. Your TV just picks the video stream out of the digital signal to display on your TV.

Kind of like when you have 3 computers behind a router. It's all one internet signal coming to your router. The router just passes the correct pieces of the signal to the correct PC.
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post #4879 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 07:52 PM
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Trip in Va, in your power calculation formula, what does the difference in zone mean? If I use zone 2 for channel 7 at 500 meters the calculated maximum power is 160 KW. If I use zone 1 for channel 7 at 500 meters the calculated power is 30 KW.
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post #4880 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenninCarlyss View Post

Trip in Va, in your power calculation formula, what does the difference in zone mean? If I use zone 2 for channel 7 at 500 meters the calculated maximum power is 160 KW. If I use zone 1 for channel 7 at 500 meters the calculated power is 30 KW.

Zone I is a specific area (Northeast and Great Lakes) which is noted in the site FAQ. Zone II is the rest of the country, which includes your area.

Realize that my site is in feet and not meters. If you put in 500 in the Height field, that was feet and not meters.

- Trip

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post #4881 of 9999 Old 05-15-2009, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
It's determined by a formula. I could have sworn I'd linked you to the calculator I wrote on RabbitEars: http://www.rabbitears.info/calc.php

The goal is to keep the coverage as consistent as possible. 305m 160 kW is supposed to have the same coverage radius as 610m 30 kW. In reality, that's not what happens, but that's the goal.

- Trip
Trip, you have posted this link here before. For those interested, below are the pages from the FCC rules and regs that spell it all out.

 

DTV antenna ERP rules.pdf 172.97265625k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf DTV antenna ERP rules.pdf (173.0 KB, 1 views)

Knowledge is Power. Trust but Verify.
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post #4882 of 9999 Old 05-17-2009, 10:10 AM
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I see that KLTL PBS was granted approval on May 12 to increase power from 55 KW to 131.4 KW. Do we know when they will actually increase power? Do they have to install new equipment or just turn a knob?
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Originally Posted by GlenninCarlyss View Post

I see that KLTL PBS was granted approval on May 12 to increase power from 55 KW to 131.4 KW. Do we know when they will actually increase power? Do they have to install new equipment or just turn a knob?

I don't actually know what it will take for them to up the power. One thing I do know is that they do not have to move the antenna to do this. The newly granted application was submitted because the KLTL engineers determined that moving the antenna up the tower was not feasible.

I would like to know myself what it will take for them to get the power increase.

They have 3 years to build it out. The CP expires on 04-03-12.

I tried to go the tvfool web site to look at the signal coverage, but they are not showing the current configuration on the map as of yet. I am interested to know how this affects the signal coverage over here. With the lower powered but higher on the tower signal that was previously filed, I had a NM of around 3 or so. Possibly making it recievable here. I would like to see the NM reading for the higher power but lower position on the tower.
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Wow, has anyone heard the loud poping, crackling sound on KFDM HD tonight??? There is some pixlation when it happens, and it happened a lot tonight. Bad. Every few minutes. I checked the signal strength when it happened several times, and it was steady at 80%. I flipped back and forth between 6 and 12. 12 was fine. It lasted several seconds when it would do it.

Has anyone else seen or heard this??? I hope it's not my stuff. I know that there were some issues with this a few months ago, and it may have returned.

It was most noticable during the 10 PM news and Texas Country Reporter.
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post #4885 of 9999 Old 05-18-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat lady View Post

I don't actually know what it will take for them to up the power. One thing I do know is that they do not have to move the antenna to do this. The newly granted application was submitted because the KLTL engineers determined that moving the antenna up the tower was not feasible.

I would like to know myself what it will take for them to get the power increase.

They have 3 years to build it out. The CP expires on 04-03-12.

I tried to go the tvfool web site to look at the signal coverage, but they are not showing the current configuration on the map as of yet. I am interested to know how this affects the signal coverage over here. With the lower powered but higher on the tower signal that was previously filed, I had a NM of around 3 or so. Possibly making it recievable here. I would like to see the NM reading for the higher power but lower position on the tower.

It is right on the authoritative spot (which TVFOOL is NOT):
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...DT1311587.html

NOW compare it with their ANALOG map...you'll be happy:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...x=TV30369.html

BUT WHY DONT THEY JUST GO BACK TO 18???? AND GO OMNI 1MW???
GEESSSH people are just plain STUPID sometimes.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat lady View Post

I knew there were differences between 300 meters or so and the 500 meters or so, but I did not know there were differences between 509.9 meters and 529 meters...

19.1 meters difference. Which would give more coverage... the WAFB signal or the KLFY at max? Or is it negligible?

Ya learn something every day...

19.1 meters is 62.64 feet...big whoop....maybe 100ft down the road difference....To double you range you have to quadruple your height...

Rule of thumb: Line of sight horizon (NOT RF) is double height of tower in FEET NOT METERS, take square root and there is your answer in miles...soo a 1250ft tower has (2/1250 = 2500, take the square root is) 50 miles...OPTICAL...RF is usually 1.4 or so beyond it...(on an average day with no enhancement)
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post #4887 of 9999 Old 05-18-2009, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by buzflash36 View Post


With KPLC doubling in power, we may be able to turn to the West and pick up KPLC on the back end of the antenna.


OH QUITE easily.........
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post #4888 of 9999 Old 05-18-2009, 11:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dr Touchtone View Post

19.1 meters is 62.64 feet...big whoop....maybe 100ft down the road difference....To double you range you have to quadruple your height...

Rule of thumb: EYE horizon (NOT RF) is double height of tower in FEET NOT METERS, take square root and there is your answer in miles...soo a 1250ft tower has (2/1250 = 2500, squ rt is) 50 miles...OPTICAL...RF is usually 1.4 or so beyond it...(on an average day with no enhancement)

The exact formula that I learned is for eye LOS take the square root of the height in feet and multply by 1.35 and for RF LOS multply by 1.41.
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post #4889 of 9999 Old 05-18-2009, 11:42 AM
 
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[quote=cat lady;16469246]
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Originally Posted by buzflash36 View Post


For example, KBTV carries Jeopardy (the only game show I watch) at an inconvenient time for me, so I watch Jeopardy on KVHP at 6:30. Much more convenient. Just an example.

Thats what DVRs are for I get Alex 3 times day....4, 29 and 11 out of Houston via the DISH
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post #4890 of 9999 Old 05-18-2009, 11:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cat lady View Post

The exact formula that I learned is for eye LOS take the square root of the height in feet and multply by 1.35 and for RF LOS multply by 1.41.

No extra factor for optical....it is square root of 2x tower height....
2000ft x 2 = 4000....square of that is 63.25miles....A 100KW Class C FM 60dbu or 1mV contour is 57.255..actual signal run out at 50dbu is 74.432 miles..
(Its the engineer in me...now I WILL buy the gritas....just say when and where)
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