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post #4681 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Speaking of the HDTV Primer web page, I see quite a bit of new work has been added about the Channel Master 4228HD which is supposed to be optimized for VHF. It doesn't look good at all. Has anyone tried one of the new Winegard series of Hi VHF/UHF antennas?

Prior to it's actual release he was very complimentary of the new 4228HD design. Then when he actually reviewed it (through software electrical analysis), he said it was horrible. While I can't say anything about the old design, I have the new one and it's great. I also bought a Winegard AP-8700 and use Belden low loss coax. Basically, ignore what the guy at HDTVPrimer wrote and buy the antenna, you will be happy with the results!
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post #4682 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 11:45 AM
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KGO is now broadcasting a banner across the top of the screen that says that they expect to switch over to their aux. antenna this Thursday or Friday and they imply that the work will be completed by July 15th.



- DFGY
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post #4683 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 11:46 AM
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When we let our government do technology this is what we get.....(I don't care who is in office.....)

Remember back when we were all told that we needed "a new HDTV digital antenna?" as well as a tuner box?

Well, the market was flooded with UHF versions, smallish square to rectangular units.......and lots of people bought them, connected them and were happy! Except perhaps for the bunch that lived in Livermore/Pleasanton... who didn't get the message that the signals from San Francisco will not pass thru mountains....welcome to the Stockton livestock report...and stolen car journal.........!!!!

Now, after this national debacle has actually taken place....didn't we learn ANYTHING from Willmington???? the FCC sees fit to allow channels to drop from the UHF range back down into VHF after they just told people to get a new UHF antenna???? Who the hell is in charge here???????????

What a cluster flop this has turned out to be.......

Steve
....seeking a new antenna so that I can once again receive Channel 7, KGO..... Why did they move when it was working fine.....?
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post #4684 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 11:48 AM
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JoeBlough asked why his TiVo picked up all the changes.

Two things: 1) you had a proper antenna....see my last post....

2) TiVo downloads information from a national data feed for channel information and evidently everyone, or most everyone, got their new changes into this feed and it was automagically uploaded to their TiVo units so that this whole thing was pretty seamless it would sound!

Good job TiVo!!!!

Steve
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post #4685 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY View Post

KGO is now broadcasting a banner across the top of the screen that says that they expect to switch over to their aux. antenna this Thursday or Friday and they imply that the work will be completed by July 15th.

I read it as the reception will get even WORSE because they are use aux antenna.

I can understand that they want to keep VHF 7 because a lot of viewers have been viewing analog 7. But then they have been broadcasting from UHF 24 for YEARS. I expect a lot of viewers have switched already. I wish they would just move back to UHF. Otherwise I will just have to give up recording anything from KGO.
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post #4686 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malmgren View Post

I really don't feel like putting up a VHF antenna just to get one channel. I'll wait til July, then October to see if things improve.

I feel the same way--it isn't worth my effort to buy another antenna for one station. Especially since it would almost certainly have to go outdoors (since I'm not getting even a hint of a signal on 7 indoors), and all the hassle that involves.

Luckily, I have access to KGO via Comcast, so the loss of an OTA signal is annoying to me, but not devastating. I always like to have OTA as an emergency backup*, but I can get plenty of other local stations that could provide me with information in an emergency. I sympathize with those who rely on OTA and can't get an ABC feed at present.

* In 1989, my neighborhood got power back about 8:00 p.m., but TCI's headend didn't start working again until around 11:00. So after having used my 12V TV for a few hours, I connected a settop antenna to my big TV and watched OTA on that until TCI came back. Nowadays I also have DirecTV, so if a local station can get a feed to them, they can get the feed to me. But I still like having OTA access!


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post #4687 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

I read it as the reception will get even WORSE because they are use aux antenna.

I can understand that they want to keep VHF 7 because a lot of viewers have been viewing analog 7. But then they have been broadcasting from UHF 24 for YEARS. I expect a lot of viewers have switched already. I wish they would just move back to UHF. Otherwise I will just have to give up recording anything from KGO.

KGO has an application in for 72 KW on the Aux antenna that would be close to replicating the 24 KW on the top antenna but it has not been approved by the FCC. It seems like a reasonable attempt by KGO to minimize the impact during construction time. At least it's only going to be 4 weeks.

OTOH, I find myself somewhat frustrated with the broadcasters absolute commitment to maximized analog up to the day of the transition. It's almost as though they weren't really serious about digital. Sutro (and lots of others) could have switched analog to their backup antennas last year and performed all this antenna work last summer and been maximized for digital at the transition. All the while they could have been pushing digital in their PSAs pointing out that their analog signals are reduced and viewers should be switching to digital now. Instead we have a situation where viewers are not getting maximized digital signals AND there's no analog as a backup. It'll be up to 4 months before stations are running their maximum post transition facilities. 2008 should have been the actual transition year with 2009 simply being the year that analog terminated.

Chuck
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post #4688 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers View Post

Prior to it's actual release he was very complimentary of the new 4228HD design. Then when he actually reviewed it (through software electrical analysis), he said it was horrible. While I can't say anything about the old design, I have the new one and it's great. I also bought a Winegard AP-8700 and use Belden low loss coax. Basically, ignore what the guy at HDTVPrimer wrote and buy the antenna, you will be happy with the results!

I have to disagree a little here. If it's working for you, then that's great. But antenna modeling is the gold standard these days to predict performance. His analysis is quite useful to tell us that Channel Master hasn't done a very good job with this new version of the 4228. He's shown that it could be much better. That is certainly useful information for someone selecting antennas.

This is just my opinion here, but if you're close enough to your stations where a CM4228 will work for VHF even with its poor gain and uneven response, you should be able to use one of the new Winegard antennas that's designed properly for Hi VHF and UHF.

If you're so on the fringe that an old style CM4228 (or a 91XG) is required for UHF reception, then it'll likely not be adequate for Hi VHF and you'll need to add a separate VHF antenna.

Chuck
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post #4689 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastmerc View Post

JoeBlough asked why his TiVo picked up all the changes.

Two things: 1) you had a proper antenna....see my last post....

2) TiVo downloads information from a national data feed for channel information and evidently everyone, or most everyone, got their new changes into this feed and it was automagically uploaded to their TiVo units so that this whole thing was pretty seamless it would sound!

Good job TiVo!!!!

Steve

well that's awesome. i would not have expected any of this to work, because 1) its a directivo, and D* is so paranoid that i figured they had disabled as much tivo goodness as possible and 2) i'm running really, really old software on the tivo. so old it has the daylight savings time bugs.
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post #4690 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

If you're so on the fringe that an old style CM4228 (or a 91XG) is required for UHF reception, then it'll likely not be adequate for Hi VHF and you'll need to add a separate VHF antenna.

I'm 51 miles from Sutro and 46 from San Bruno. Oddly enough, while KGO-DT should be the most difficult for my antenna to receive, it's actually one of the best channels. Here's what TVFool says:

KGO-DT 7 (7.1)
ABC
Max ERP: 24.000 kW
Eff. pwr: 24.000 kW
Dist: 51.1 mi Path: 1Edge
Rx: -71.0 dBm NM: 20.0 dB
Az: 315.5° (true)
Az: 301.3° (compass)

I'm getting full 10 bars signal strength on the Samsung box. Even the HDHomeRun has full green bars for the three signal characteristics. The only explanation I can come up with is the CM4228HD combined with my excellent mounting skills has made for excellent VHF reception far from the transmitter.
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post #4691 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers View Post

I'm 51 miles from Sutro and 46 from San Bruno. Oddly enough, while KGO-DT should be the most difficult for my antenna to receive, it's actually one of the best channels.

At the moment they are the only Sutro station on a tower top antenna. Let us know what happens tomorrow or Friday when they switch to the low Aux antenna.

Chuck
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post #4692 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 04:34 PM
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From where I also live out in Union City, KGO is the only station that I can't get over the air, the others are fine, but not KGO. Can someone please tell me what's going on with their transmitter?
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post #4693 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBauer2635 View Post

From where I also live out in Union City, KGO is the only station that I can't get over the air, the others are fine, but not KGO. Can someone please tell me what's going on with their transmitter?

KGO's existing digital signal received power is 10dB - 20dB lower than the analog signal received power and is highly dependent on location. The typical UHF antenna attenuates VHF-HI signals (negative gain) and KGO7 is at the low end of the VHF-HI band, resulting in a worst case scenario for fringe reception.

Since they are the only station broadcasting from the top of Sutro, don't expect a big improvement when they complete the installation of their new antenna. As has been noted previously, their request to temporarily increase their power from 24kW to 72kW while broadcasting from their Aux antenna is pending.
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post #4694 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 06:15 PM
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KFTL-CA has asked for an STA to operate 28 digitally ASAP.

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #4695 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBauer2635 View Post

From where I also live out in Union City, KGO is the only station that I can't get over the air, the others are fine, but not KGO. Can someone please tell me what's going on with their transmitter?

Nothing is wrong with their transmitter. I'm 110 miles from Sutro and watched the 6 pm news tonight on KGO. If you can't receive them it has to be at your end.

Indoor antenna by any chance?

I lived in the Ardenwood district of Fremont just across the flood control channel from Union City for 18 years. I could see the Sutro tower if I stood on my 1 story roof. With an average outdoor antenna the OTA signals were perfect, not even a spec of noise on KTVU.

I'm also a ham and had a 50' tower with yagis for HF at that location. Unfortunately some of the neighbors got TV interference. The people two houses down were having problems. I went over to help them. I found a TV with rabbit ears with weak and multipath pictures. It was so bad that their pictures changed when I rotated my antenna. I told them they needed an outside antenna or cable.

This is why I rant about indoor antennas. Yes, some people are lucky, but I've seen some truly awful pictures on indoor antennas in good signal locations.

Chuck
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post #4696 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 10:30 PM
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I'm still getting KGO well in the Burbank neighborhood (near the Pink Poodle) with a CM 4228HD, but I've been seeing weird red and blue vertical lines from time to time. My TV has 8 out of 10 bars, so I don't think it's interference, but I'm seeing it on my TV as well as through a ATSC capture card, so it's not my TV.

Small preview attached, I also have a png screenshot (0.5M) and an "mpg" snippet from MythTV (6M) hosted on my DSL at http://ruka.org/~toast/hdtv (can't link because I'm new)
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post #4697 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 10:55 PM
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I think that those artifacts are introduced by the processor that did the two-image juggling act. I.e., they're in the source material from the station.
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post #4698 of 10999 Old 06-17-2009, 11:08 PM
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How about this (a little while later) in a nice sunset? (this would be issues2 at http://ruka.org/~toast/hdtv and the other one with the image juggling is just issues). I guess they could just have fairly poor quality data?
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post #4699 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 01:29 AM
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I seem to recall some talk in this thread about the excessive compression KGO was doing to carry two 720p channels. My knowledge about this stuff isn't that great. But my guess is that it is related to that. (and of course if someone more knowledgeable says it is something else... take their word for it over mine )

The following site has info on the resolutions and data rates.

San Francisco, California
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=6
click KGO-TV

Or

Direct link

click "Technical Data and Screencaps" (as long as Javascript is enabled)
then scroll down a little.

a google search for site:avsforum.com intitle:"san francisco, ca - ota" kgo 720p compression finds some of what I'm referring to.


Anyone with a Windows computer with an ATSC card can use the free TSReader Lite to see that information in real time.

I talked about TSReader Lite some here where I was using it to see whether KPIX had started to transmit the TVGOS (TV Guide On Screen) data that the DTVPal and Artec T3APR-T converter boxes need for supporting analog based TVGOS devices. KPIX started transmitting the TVGOS data for these converter boxes on May 7th 2009.

If your TVGOS device used to be getting TV Guide listings OTA before June 13, 2009 and now isn't, you could be a candidate to get a DTVPal or Artec T3APR-T converter box. The tricky part comes from those that want to still get a resolution higher than 480i. I talked about a couple possible solutions to that here.

I don't have that need. 480i is all my TV can handle anyway. I've been getting TV Guide listings for my Panasonic DMR-EH75V (DVD/HDD/VHS) from a DTVPal Plus for 8 days in a row now.

Someone just mentioned you can get one of these DTVPal converter boxes for free if you happen to have a coupon and will be in Denver on June 27th. They won't be accepting money. So you'll need a coupon.

Here's a link to the message about the coupon DTVPal converter box swap.
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post #4700 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 05:53 AM
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Apparently they will be doing some work on it at noon today.

tinypic copy of 2 minute video

Not that it's needed anymore but
these are the times of their news broadcasts today:

Code:
 5:30am to  6:00am "5:30am news"
 6:00am to  7:00am "6am news"
 8:00am to  9:00am repeat of "6am news" on 7.2
11:00am to 11:30am "11am news"
 9:00pm to 10:00pm "9pm news" on 20.1
(info from PSIP based guide info searched using DTVPal)


And there's the following from a few days ago:

Quote:

which had some text based info on it, including a link to a PDF with a schematic showing where on the tower the different stations broadcast from.
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post #4701 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kev4321 View Post

Apparently they will be doing some work on it at noon today.

tinypic copy of 2 minute video

Thanks for posting this. So the engineer says they will using increased power on the aux antenna. Interesting since the application still doesn't show as approved in the FCC database. I'll be keeping an eye on this over the next 4 weeks.

Also heard the engineer say that the new antenna will be better for indoor antennas. Huh? Sounds like wishful thinking. Same height, same ERP, same polarization. I expect the new one to be identical in performance to the old one.

Chuck
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post #4702 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 09:36 AM
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Why does channel 7 have to replace their analog antenna with a digital one if they are broadcasting their digital signal on the analog channel 7 frequency?
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post #4703 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 09:53 AM
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Because all 4 antennae will be replaced, and KGO will not be the only resident of that particular antenna.

Bobby 

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post #4704 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 11:18 AM
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I was just reading the Los Angeles OTA forum, and someone there did an interesting thing. He (? there's no name on the postings, so I'll play the odds) gathered up information from forum readers about their reception of KTTV and KCOP and plotted it on Google Maps. You can see his original posting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16654060

His survey here:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewf...RGlRQjR0WlE6MA

And the current mapped results here:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...92f5676fb5ed0e

I think it would be interesting to do a similar map for KGO-DT. I'm just getting ready for a seminar all next week and don't have time to do it myself, but if anyone here is willing to gather the info, I'd be happy to be one of the reporting readers! I think it would be good to have the survey include both KGO and KNTV, since that would give a better idea of whether people are receiving any VHF digital stations from San Francisco. (Albeit not from the exact same transmitter site, but there's no other VHF station on Sutro to compare KGO with.)

Anyway, just an idea for anyone who has some spare time.


Patty
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post #4705 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post

Because all 4 antennae will be replaced, and KGO will not be the only resident of that particular antenna.

I'm curious, can they mix VHF and UHF on the same antenna? or is it, I suppose, different segments of the antenna? That would make more sense to me.
BTW, being up here in Santa Rosa makes it very difficult picking up transmissions from Sutro so I was surprised to get channel 2, 4, and 11(from San Bruno). Ch2 comes in at 70 to 80 percent on my Dish 722 and 4 and 11 in the mid 60s. The VIP722 seems to need over 66 on the scale to stay locked.
I wonder why 2 comes in so good and not 5 and 9?

Another thought. I really wish that people reporting here would include there location (city or suburb) under their screen name which would make it a lot easier for those in the know to track where there is good reception. (and bad)

Bobby, are you getting anything where you live in Rohnert Park?

Brian...reporting from the left coast...
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post #4706 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandude View Post

Bobby, are you getting anything where you live in Rohnert Park?

Yep, I'm getting almost everything here. 2 is the strongest of them all, interesting because I couldn't get a hint of it when they were on channel 56. I got KRON just fine before but am having a bit of difficulty with it now until they go to full power.

Bobby 

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post #4707 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandude View Post

I'm curious, can they mix VHF and UHF on the same antenna? or is it, I suppose, different segments of the antenna? That would make more sense to me.

I attended the KOVR analog shutdown tour on June 12th. I learned a few things that may apply to the Sutro facility.

First thing is that I think it is extremely unlikely that the KGO antenna can be used for any UHF channel. I did find out that antennas can be stacked on top of one another. But looking at Larry's post construction diagram of the Sutro tower it looks like the KGO antenna is mounted on top with the KBCW antenna side mounted below it.

Another thing that can be done is for there to be a shared antenna. KQCA, KMAX, and KCRA have what they call a "community antenna." I've attached below a photo showing part of the combiner room for those 3 stations. The copper piping is all coax and the black stuff is waveguide.

So now perusing the FCC database in conjunction with Larry's Sutro diagram, the following could be possible. KPIX, KRON, & KTVU are listed with the same antenna height. They could be sharing one antenna. KQED, KCNS, & KCSM are listed with the same antenna height. The could be sharing. KMTP is listed at a lower height but with the KQED group on the diagram so I don't know what's going on there. KOFY & KFSF look like they might be sharing a side mounted antenna.

With so many stations on one tower, antenna sharing would greatly cut down on the number of coax pipes going up the tower.

Chuck
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post #4708 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Nothing is wrong with their transmitter. I'm 110 miles from Sutro and watched the 6 pm news tonight on KGO. If you can't receive them it has to be at your end.

Indoor antenna by any chance?

I lived in the Ardenwood district of Fremont just across the flood control channel from Union City for 18 years. I could see the Sutro tower if I stood on my 1 story roof. With an average outdoor antenna the OTA signals were perfect, not even a spec of noise on KTVU.

I'm also a ham and had a 50' tower with yagis for HF at that location. Unfortunately some of the neighbors got TV interference. The people two houses down were having problems. I went over to help them. I found a TV with rabbit ears with weak and multipath pictures. It was so bad that their pictures changed when I rotated my antenna. I told them they needed an outside antenna or cable.

This is why I rant about indoor antennas. Yes, some people are lucky, but I've seen some truly awful pictures on indoor antennas in good signal locations.

Chuck

It's not just that, from where I live inside an apartment, I get every other station except for KGO-DT because my antenna is indoor and from the Sutro towers, San Bruno Mountain and Fremont's transmitter, I can get 2-1, 2-2, 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, 9-1 9-2 9-3, 11-1, 11-2, 11-3, 14-1, 20-1, 20-4, 26-1, 26-2, 32-1, 32-2, 32-3, 32-5, 36-1, 36-2, 38-1, 38-2, 44-1, 48-1, 48-2, 54-1, 54-2, 54-3, 54-4, 54-5, 60-1, 60-2, 60-3, 65-1, 65-2, 65-3, 65-4, 66-1 and 66-2 but not KGO-TV. Most of the stations come in at 90% or so and sometimes, I can try to get KSBW-DT on 8-1, 8-2 but only 30-40% of the time. From my other location in Newman, CA, the Fresno locals come in 90-95% with the exception of KVPT which comes in 65%, but the Sacto stations 10-1, 10-2, 13-1, 19-1, 31-1, 40-1, 40-2 come in 80-90%, but 3-1, 3-2 and 58-1 58-2 do not come in at all. Probably the Hearst-Argyle Sacto Tower needs improvement, but KSBW comes in 70% because their transmitter comes out of Fremont Peak (Previously until 2000 it came from Mt. Madonna west of Gilroy, but moved it in 2000 to Fremont Peak).
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post #4709 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I attended the KOVR analog shutdown tour on June 12th. I learned a few things that may apply to the Sutro facility.

First thing is that I think it is extremely unlikely that the KGO antenna can be used for any UHF channel. I did find out that antennas can be stacked on top of one another. But looking at Larry's post construction diagram of the Sutro tower it looks like the KGO antenna is mounted on top with the KBCW antenna side mounted below it.

Another thing that can be done is for there to be a shared antenna. KQCA, KMAX, and KCRA have what they call a "community antenna." I've attached below a photo showing part of the combiner room for those 3 stations. The copper piping is all coax and the black stuff is waveguide.

So now perusing the FCC database in conjunction with Larry's Sutro diagram, the following could be possible. KPIX, KRON, & KTVU are listed with the same antenna height. They could be sharing one antenna. KQED, KCNS, & KCSM are listed with the same antenna height. The could be sharing. KMTP is listed at a lower height but with the KQED group on the diagram so I don't know what's going on there. KOFY & KFSF look like they might be sharing a side mounted antenna.

With so many stations on one tower, antenna sharing would greatly cut down on the number of coax pipes going up the tower.

Chuck

I just recently learned about the fact that KQCA/KMAX are multiplexing their signals into one single antenna. It's got me confused. KMAX (21) is higher wattage than KQCA (46) and yet I
get KQCA great; it's one of my best stations; but, KMAX (21) is only good late at night or early in the morning. I guess it's the 91XG. It has lower gain on the lower UHF stations and higher gain above ch. 40. I didn't think that the channel frequency within
UHF would make that much difference; but now think that this has a great deal to do with my KMAX issue...
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post #4710 of 10999 Old 06-18-2009, 04:03 PM
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The Oakland Tribune and S.F. Chronicle indicate that the U.S. Open golf first and second rounds are broadcast on Channels 11, 3 and 8 at noon, Today and tomorrow. This raised my eyebrows because the first 2 rounds of even major golf tournaments haven't been broadcast OTA for as long as I remember. TitanTV.com doesn't show golf at noon either day for 11.1. Am I right in assuming that Channel 11 is the same as 11.1, in TitanTV (NBC)? I wasn't able to check out what actually happened on 11.1. I get OTA off antenna in Berkeley.
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