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post #7561 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

I thought I saw a post from someone at the station just a few days ago here. Nothing was said about my post which was just from the web page Trip posted.
SHF

Yes, there was a post from BayArea13818 that sounded like he was associated with KAXT. He said he'd update us when changes were made.

I didn't realize the list you posted was simply the one from Wikipedia. I thought you'd put it together. It was different from the programming I had shown on my lists, so I went with it.

I used to be able to get KAXT, but the antenna I got it on has a frozen rotor, so I can't turn the antenna to the right direction now, and I have to rely on others for information.

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post #7562 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 06:53 AM
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Larry, are you planning to replace the rotor during the summer, or are you going to just leave it as-is?

- Trip

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post #7563 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post


Yes, there was a post from BayArea13818 that sounded like he was associated with KAXT. He said he'd update us when changes were made.

I didn't realize the list you posted was simply the one from Wikipedia. I thought you'd put it together. It was different from the programming I had shown on my lists, so I went with it.

I used to be able to get KAXT, but the antenna I got it on has a frozen rotor, so I can't turn the antenna to the right direction now, and I have to rely on others for information.

Larry

If it's a Channel Master style rotor, sometimes they get bound up. If you can get it down and take everything off of it, try taking off the bottom plate. There are 4 bolts inside that secure the motor to the housing- if you loosen them, and then retighten, sometimes it unbinds and works fine. Mine did that once, and I spent hours checking the wiring before figuring it out.
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post #7564 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 12:27 PM
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The rotor is a Channel Master 9521a and it stopped working during a major wind storm last July. I no longer have the stamina to get up on the roof and do antenna work (old age), so I'm sorry to say it's not going to be replaced or fixed.

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post #7565 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 01:36 PM
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Any chance you could find some young person to replace it for you?

- Trip

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post #7566 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 01:59 PM
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Hi,

I found another web page about KAXT.

KAXT Does the Impossible With Harmonic
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/112924



The Harmonic encoder Web page is linked.

SHF
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post #7567 of 11096 Old 05-07-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

The rotor is a Channel Master 9521a and it stopped working during a major wind storm last July. I no longer have the stamina to get up on the roof and do antenna work (old age), so I'm sorry to say it's not going to be replaced or fixed.

Larry
SF

Larry, if I were closer I would be happy to assist you with this. But Santa Rosa is a bit of a drive. lol With the amount of good info and suggestions you share, I am sure someone would offer a hand if you needed it.
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post #7568 of 11096 Old 05-08-2011, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

The rotor is a Channel Master 9521a and it stopped working during a major wind storm last July. I no longer have the stamina to get up on the roof and do antenna work (old age), so I'm sorry to say it's not going to be replaced or fixed.

Larry
SF

If you do find someone to work on it, I'll bet it only needs to be lubricated. A friend had one of these up around here for 30 years and it didn't rotate well. I replaced it for him and he took the old one apart and lubricated it. Now it works like new again. It doesn't have any real bearings in it so it needs to be lubricated. I do understand that the corrosive properties of the air in SF are severe compared to up here so sometimes things have to be replaced.

Chuck
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post #7569 of 11096 Old 05-08-2011, 10:53 AM
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I've been contacted by Private Message. Looks like there's a good possibility of getting the rotor fixed!

Larry
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post #7570 of 11096 Old 05-09-2011, 03:08 PM
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Go Warren go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,

I found another web page about KAXT.

KAXT Does the Impossible With Harmonic
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/112924



The Harmonic encoder Web page is linked.

SHF

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post #7571 of 11096 Old 05-09-2011, 05:40 PM
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Now if only KAXT would add some digital networks worth watching to all these channels. Except for My Family TV the rest are not worth much. Its too bad they got rid of some of the other good networks they once had like Coastal, Cool TV and Colours. I wish they would add some of the new ones coming soon like PBJ and RTV2 or some of the others like Antenna TV, America One or Tuff that we don't get in the area to their lineup.
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post #7572 of 11096 Old 05-09-2011, 09:50 PM
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I wonder what's become of KGO's (7.x) PSIP data stream...? There seems to be no EIT info available just now when I checked at the request of another AVS member.
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post #7573 of 11096 Old 05-10-2011, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post

I wonder what's become of KGO's (7.x) PSIP data stream...? There seems to be no EIT info available just now when I checked at the request of another AVS member.

Good catch.
I'll let them know!
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post #7574 of 11096 Old 05-11-2011, 11:15 PM
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The set I have here with an amplified combo antenna attached to is receiving from Sutro. My first scan got KQED. I was expecting KOFY or KPIX to be first. I've been through around a dozen additional scans and have added 5.1, 4.1, 20.1, 66.1, 2.1 and 36.1. Each scan takes around 15 minutes. At times, KQED and KPIX have been watchable. 66.1 has even seen a 10-second A/V lock. It's interesting stuff. The angle of the television on the turntable definitely affects these SF uhf signals, although that doesn't guarantee that EMI is to blame.

The amped Circuit City purchased antenna had been dedicated to getting KVIE HD prior. Very few channel scans had been attempted.
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post #7575 of 11096 Old 05-12-2011, 11:20 PM
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Deltaguy... you're getting KICU 36 from 35 miles further south and east of Sutro. Their transmitter is on Monument Peak in the hills above Fremont.

That's good reception for an indoor antenna! Sutro is too, if fact. If you had an antenna on your roof you would probably be getting great reception from Walnut Grove, Sutro Tower, Mt. San Bruno and the South Bay.

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post #7576 of 11096 Old 05-13-2011, 03:30 PM
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Is anyone else have drop outs audio from 11.1 and 5.1? I can't figure out if it is HD TIVO related or transmission? I don't seem to have any troubles with most NON HD, or with 2.1, and 7.1 recordings. Just these two, been happening about five days now
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post #7577 of 11096 Old 05-13-2011, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Deltaguy... you're getting KICU 36 from 35 miles further south and east of Sutro. Their transmitter is on Monument Peak in the hills above Fremont.

That's good reception for an indoor antenna! Sutro is too, if fact. If you had an antenna on your roof you would probably be getting great reception from Walnut Grove, Sutro Tower, Mt. San Bruno and the South Bay.

Larry
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Prior to the transition, KICU was always the best bay area uhf station indoors here. KQED was the best from Sutro as well. Maybe exact starting location is in play. In addition, foil-backed insulation may be acting as a reflector with this indoor location. The same antenna has not enjoyed the same results in other rooms. In addition to the television, other items may be interacting with the antenna as well. Note that both vhf stations have failed to scan in with the amplified rabbit ears. KGO has scanned in, not extremely watchable, in 2 rooms with rabbit ears alone. The TVFool noise margin prediction for 66.1/2 is about 3. I've had zero a/v locks for 2.1 and 36.1 and seldom have had any a/v whatsoever.
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post #7578 of 11096 Old 05-15-2011, 09:47 AM
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At the end of 2010 a couple of changes that occurred during the year led me to decide that it was time to get serious about replacing my 50' guyed tower with a tilt-over crank-up tower. Not least of which was that getting older makes me not want to be climbing a 50' tower.

So I decided on a 55' crank-up that I could work on from the ground. Starting in mid April I took down the guyed tower and started working on the new tower. Yesterday I tilted the tower up for the first time with only the TV antennas on it, no ham antennas yet. I've attached on image of the tower as it is right now.

The tower is located 5' south of the old one, is 5' taller, and the mast is 5' taller than the old one. That makes the 91XGs on the top 10' higher.

I made two small hardware changes. I lengthened the high VHF antenna booms by 16" and added 2 elements to improve the channel 13 performance. That's of some importance here because of KCBA on RF 13. I had a Tin Lee channel 19 notch filter before the preamp to keep KUVS analog from overloading the preamp but that station is long gone but the filter was still attenuating part of KUVS digital on 18 which also overloads the preamp with no filter. I wanted to have a chance at KOFY on 19 so I had Tin Lee retune the filter to maximize attenuation at the low end of 18 and minimize attenuation at the low of 19. They did that for only the cost of shipping. Good guys to deal with!

The reception results are mostly positive. The only negative is that KXTV 10 is slightly weaker and its SNR is down a couple of dB. Every other station seems to be as good or better.

I've only had less than one day to evaluate reception but with the storms there seems to be no inversions affecting the the signals. Time will tell what happens in the long run.

The most noticeable improvements are KCRA, KMAX, KTXL, & KTFK which look to be 4 - 10 dB stronger in real signal strength. The SNRs have improved a couple of dB.

Sutro is still a problem. KQED seems more consistent and KGO is in more but there's no improvement in the other stations. I did see KOFY briefly so the filter change did its job. KGO had a strange problem where I had to point the antennas about 8 degrees off of Sutro to the peak signal. That's now gone.

Fremont signals are un changed.

Salinas signals are better still. KSBW now seems to come in all the time even when pointed at Walnut Grove. With the addition of ABC on 8.2, that gives me an option to KXTV which I know is going to be a problem when the inversion comes. KCBA is running about SNR 20 dB all the time now. Previously it was in and out. Not that I care to watch it, but KLFB with its little 3KW looks to be running SNR 20 dB or better all the time. I think KION is stronger but so is KFTY so the net result is no improvement on KION.

KCSO on RF 3 is now solid all the time at SNR 25 dB even with only the high VHF antennas.

I suspect that moving the antennas 5' has as much affect as raising them.

I also have a new TV. My 4 year old Sony SXRD developed the infamous green background problem. Upon providing proof of the problem and proof of ownership, Sony is providing an option for a free replacement or a better TV at a low price. The offer changes all the time. I got a 55HX800 for $600. So far it's a great TV at 50% lighter and a fraction of the width.

The channel scanning scheme is identical to the older TV as far as I can tell. The diagnostic screen is slightly different. SNR now reads in 0.1 dB steps and the maximum displayed number is 31.3 dB. Error count maxes out at 255. The signal quality meter reads 0 - 95. The weakest signal teetering on the digital cliff reads 3 or 4 at an SNR of 14.8 dB.

Chuck
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post #7579 of 11096 Old 05-15-2011, 10:01 AM
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Very nice! Is it a motorized crank-up?

I'd be curious to see you go channel-by-channel and let us (me ) know what you're seeing now in terms of signal strengths and whatnot. I'm quite fascinated.

- Trip

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post #7580 of 11096 Old 05-15-2011, 12:52 PM
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You sure have a great TV antenna set up there now! Congratulations on the new tilt-up tower and better results. Your reception is quite impressive!

You wrote: "The most noticeable improvements are KCRA, KMAX, KTXL, & KTFK which look to be 4 - 10 dB stronger in real signal strength. The SNRs have improved a couple of dB." How do you determine signal strength vs SNR? I thought that once your antenna set up was finished the SNR and signal strength would follow each other. Signal "quality" might be different, if that's what the percentage meter shows, but isn't SNR an indication of signal strength? I'm confused.

On your new TV, how do the signal quality meter readings follow the SNR readings you're getting? On my Sony the SNR and signal strength are aligned such that I can pretty much tell what the SNR is just by looking at the signal percentage meter. Multipath doesn't seem to affect the signal reading, so I think the percentage meter shows signal strength, not quality. Anything below 15 dB SNR gives "No Signal" and no meter reading. Anything above 15 dB shows on the percentage meter... 16 dB = 10%, 17 dB = 16%, 18 dB = 21% and so on up to 32 dB = 98%. After that an increase in SNR has no change on the percentage meter. 98% is as high as it goes.

Like Trip, I'd love to see a channel by channel report of what you're receiving, taken during a time of normal signal levels... i.e. with no atmospheric influences... what you get most of the time.

Larry

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post #7581 of 11096 Old 05-15-2011, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

You wrote: "The most noticeable improvements are KCRA, KMAX, KTXL, & KTFK which look to be 4 - 10 dB stronger in real signal strength. The SNRs have improved a couple of dB." How do you determine signal strength vs SNR? I thought that once your antenna set up was finished the SNR and signal strength would follow each other. Signal "quality" might be different, if that's what the percentage meter shows, but isn't SNR an indication of signal strength? I'm confused.

If you had no noise or multipath of any kind then SNR would follow signal strength. I believe that frequently is not the case. Pulling this number off the top of my head, I believe that -105.2 dBm is quoted as the noise floor in the DTV bandwidth of 5.83 MHz. That means any signal with a pilot carrier of -73.2 dBm or stronger should give you an SNR of at least 32 dB. None of the signals from Walnut Grove are that weak here (KTFK is close) but none give me an SNR that good. Something in the 20's is typical. With the new configuration, signal strength went up but it appears multipath did too.

I use my spectrum analyzer to determine the signal strength.

Quote:


On your new TV, how do the signal quality meter readings follow the SNR readings you're getting? On my Sony the SNR and signal strength are aligned such that I can pretty much tell what the SNR is just by looking at the signal percentage meter. Multipath doesn't seem to affect the signal reading, so I think the percentage meter shows signal strength, not quality. Anything below 15 dB SNR gives "No Signal" and no meter reading. Anything above 15 dB shows on the percentage meter... 16 dB = 10%, 17 dB = 16%, 18 dB = 21% and so on up to 32 dB = 98%. After that an increase in SNR has no change on the percentage meter. 98% is as high as it goes.

It appears your meter is a little different from the ones I have here. An SNR of 16 dB was 54% on the old Sony and on the new Sony it is about 11. On my DTV Pal DVR SNR 16 dB is 56%. This doesn't tell you the signal strength though. The AGC does that.

Quote:


Like Trip, I'd love to see a channel by channel report of what you're receiving, taken during a time of normal signal levels... i.e. with no atmospheric influences... what you get most of the time.

Larry

I can work on that but I need a few days to get a feeling for the nominal signals. Only KMMW-LD and KSBW are always maxed out at SNR 31.3 dB. Every other channel moves up and down a couple dB even under "no inversion" conditions. With channel 18 notch filter, KUVS no longer has a high SNR.

I've attached an image of two spectrum analyzer displays. The left frame shows KUVS with the antennas pointed at it and the effect of the notch filter. The right frame shows the antennas moved 16 degrees towards Sutro with KUVS in the first null. This is just 2 degrees off of Sutro and you can see the KOFY pilot carrier. KOFY was just on the cliff at SNR 15.2 dB.

Chuck
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post #7582 of 11096 Old 05-16-2011, 12:43 PM
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Chuck...

Thanks for the explanation of SNR vs signal strength vs multipath.

One note surprised me in what you wrote: "Only KMMW-LD and KSBW are always maxed out at SNR 31.3 dB." Is KSBW the callsign you intended to write there? That's a long haul for such a strong signal!

I enjoyed seeing the KUVS - KOFY displays from your spectrum analyzer.

Larry

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post #7583 of 11096 Old 05-16-2011, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

One note surprised me in what you wrote: "Only KMMW-LD and KSBW are always maxed out at SNR 31.3 dB." Is KSBW the callsign you intended to write there? That's a long haul for such a strong signal!

Larry

Yes, KSBW has a very good signal here... even at 115 miles. At its weakest, KSBW is only 2 or 3 dB weaker than KVIE and KXTV on RF 9 & 10. The big advantage for KSBW is that is has no detectable multipath. When it was analog 8 and digital on 10, I compared an SD picture between the two. I could see no difference. Sometimes with good ducting down there, KSBW gets 20 dB stronger.

KSBW is using an omni antenna, the only station from that area that does, and that helps the signal a lot. If KCBA had an omni, it would be as strong as KSBW. Using KSBW as a reference, KCBA has a measly 100 watts ERP in my direction but its SNR is still running 19-21 dB.

The one that really blows my mind though is KLFB on RF 22 at 132 miles with about 875 watts ERP in my direction. I've not seen it drop below SNR 20 for the last two days. Must be its antenna at 3654'.

Chuck
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post #7584 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

...

The one that really blows my mind though is KLFB on RF 22 at 132 miles with about 875 watts ERP in my direction. I've not seen it drop below SNR 20 for the last two days. Must be its antenna at 3654'.

Chuck

Hi,

I checked the antenna height and you are correct. But in trying to locate the transmitter I discovered that Larry's list has an incorrect height.

Trivial for sure.

SHF
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post #7585 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 10:32 AM
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I think it went off Sunday morning. They sure have a hard time staying on the air.

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post #7586 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
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Hi,

I checked the antenna height and you are correct. But in trying to locate the transmitter I discovered that Larry's list has an incorrect height.

Trivial for sure.

SHF

Larry's list is HAAT (Height Above Average Terrain), not AMSL (Above Mean Sea Level). I refer to AMSL because it's more useful here in California where most of the transmitters are on mountains and most of the population is in valleys near sea level. I suppose if you're in Denver AMSL is not so useful.

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post #7587 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Yes, KSBW has a very good signal here... even at 115 miles.
The one that really blows my mind though is KLFB on RF 22 at 132 miles with about 875 watts ERP in my direction. I've not seen it drop below SNR 20 for the last two days. Must be its antenna at 3654'.
Chuck

That is amazing reception! The combination of your high location and your great antenna set up gives you fantastic results. I look forward to your long list of stations received up there.

My most distant digital signal is KFTY at 65 miles. I did receive KSBW analog several years ago late one night when KGO and KQED were off the air, but nothing distant since then.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

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post #7588 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,

I checked the antenna height and you are correct. But in trying to locate the transmitter I discovered that Larry's list has an incorrect height.

Trivial for sure.

SHF

The FCC web site that I use for power and antenna height readings for my DTV station lists gives the antenna height in three different ways: height above ground, height above sea level and height above average terrain. Most engineers use the HAAT value since that seems to be the value that best reflects the signal coverage.

FYI, KLFB transmits from Mt. Toro down in Monterey County. For its antenna height you have:
59 meters or 193.5 feet above ground
1114 meters or 3654.8 feet above sea level
and 808 meters or 2650.9 feet above average terrain. This is the value shown on my lists.

Larry
SF

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

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post #7589 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 02:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

The FCC web site that I use for power and antenna height readings for my DTV station lists gives the antenna height in three different ways: height above ground, height above sea level and height above average terrain. Most engineers use the HAAT value since that seems to be the value that best reflects the signal coverage.

FYI, KLFB transmits from Mt. Toro down in Monterey County. For its antenna height you have:
59 meters or 193.5 feet above ground
1114 meters or 3654.8 feet above sea level
and 808 meters or 2650.9 feet above average terrain. This is the value shown on my lists.

Larry
SF

la jolla is in san diego is situated in a high plateau, the folks in that area can receive most of the la stations over the air from distance close to 120 miles.
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post #7590 of 11096 Old 05-17-2011, 02:34 PM
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I thought the easiest way to display this was to take a screen shot of my Word document and attach it as a GIF. Conditions change a little even with the lack of inversions during these storms but the numbers are in the ball park. I did not list stations I only see a couple times a year like KRCR, KHSL, and a number of Fresno stations.

Chuck
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