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post #9811 of 11206 Old 11-28-2013, 05:26 PM
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Hi,

 

 

  • KTNC was off the air a few days ago. Transmitter problem perhaps.
  • I report better then before captures. Today 11/28/2013 is also better then before by quick scan.
  • DUH! I discovered SNQ is actually SNR ("snq = signal to noise quality (based on analog signal to noise ratio").
  • SNR is a little bit lower than before judged by new understanding by what is being displayed.
  • I have looked and I have no history of KTNC using my attic antenna, sorry. So no hard numbers.

 

So, SNR is a bit lower but perhaps more consistant thus better captures. A little more noise is being transmitted, but not the wide swings as before.

 

I will start to capture hard numbers for that HDHR tuner so if the SNR gets better I will see it.

 

I thought before that snq was related to extracting a clean ATSC signal out the multipath mess my antenna receives.

 

 

SHF

 

P.S. I wish AVS would fix the WYSIWYG editor, it keeps getting worse. And Paint Shop Pro would have a spell checker.

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post #9812 of 11206 Old 11-28-2013, 08:13 PM
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Hi,

 

Your favorite TV stations coming to Sutro! :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I know it is hard to read.

 

After clicking on the picture right click and save the picture so you can zoom in with your favorite viewer.

 

Or, you can go to: http://sutrotower.com/about-the-tower/

 

and download the ~ 12 MB  "Building permit for tower modifications (pdf)" and try and find it.

 


 

Both KTNC and KEMO are on the plans for new antennas on Sutro. (KNTC is a typo I suspect as is KEMO on RF 14)

 

Yes there are ~ 52 new antennas planned for Sutro.

 

 


 

I am tired of football already.

 

SHF

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post #9813 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 01:26 AM
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I got this from the Silicon Dust FAQ for the HD Home Run. Maybe it will help explain what the three values mean.

Larry

- - -

There are three percentages reported by the HDHomeRun -

Signal Strength (ss)
- raw power level as measured by the receiver

Signal Quality (snq)
- how clearly defined the digital data is

Symbol Quality (seq)
- Amount of correct or corrected data over the last second

The above definitions can be confusing, so a much simpler definition is to imagine listening to the radio:
- Signal Strength represents the volume
- Signal Quality represents how clearly you can hear the lyrics
- Symbol Quality indicates the percentage of the lyrics you could hear or guess correctly

As it turns out, Signal Strength is somewhat irrelevant; if your antenna isn't pointed properly, it doesn't matter how loud you turn up the volume, the static will prevent you from hearing the lyrics correctly. Similarly, amplifying a weak HDTV signal can result in a high signal strength but too much noise to decode the digital data correctly.

Use the Signal Strength for a rough idea of direction, but align the antenna for the highest Signal Quality, ignoring Signal Strength. When aimed correctly, Symbol Quality will show 100%, indicating no errors in the output. Splitters and amplifiers can introduce noise which will lower the Signal Quality, even if the Signal Strength increases.
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post #9814 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 01:31 AM
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As for the new antennas on Sutro Tower for KTNC and KEMO, I'll continue to look for them to be installed. So far, I see nothing new up there.

Larry
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post #9815 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


Or, you can go to: http://sutrotower.com/about-the-tower/


Major plans in the works! KTNC has not yet submitted an application to construct a 1 MW transmitter on Sutro Tower. That's something to watch for. Their next STA submission ought to be interesting. This whole thing could be a couple years off.

Chuck


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post #9816 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post


Major plans in the works! KTNC has not yet submitted an application to construct a 1 MW transmitter on Sutro Tower. That's something to watch for. Their next STA submission ought to be interesting. This whole thing could be a couple years off.

Chuck


Hi,

 

Which comes first, the building permit approval or the FCC permission to build. Both are required.

 

Remember, the KTNC antenna builder has disappeared, their web site gone. Hope fully sold.

 

New pictures of Sutro show rust being scraped off, that may be the KTNC problem on Diablo.

 

The building permit has a file date of 2013-03-26 and a creation date of 9/26/11.

 

KTNC's antenna(s) have dates of 21-Jan-12 and 24-Jan-13 with "Dielectric still listed as the antenna builder.

 

Quote:
This whole thing could be a couple years off.

 

For sure. Maybe the neighbors will go to court to stop more antennas.

 

Notice to Our Neighbors (5/18/2013)

http://sutrotower.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Notice-to-Our-Neighbors.pdf

 

The entire Sutro site looks like an effort to sell the new construction.

 

Dig deep into the site and PDF(s) and there may be many interesting tidbits.

 

SHF

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post #9817 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 10:15 AM
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Dielectric was bought by Sinclair. Website's been back for a while now. http://dielectric.com/

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post #9818 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Dielectric was bought by Sinclair. Website's been back for a while now. http://dielectric.com/

- Trip


Hi,

 

A very short while, It comes up today but did not yesterday or perhaps the day before. Must have been down for maintenance when I tried the results of Google search.

 

SHF

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post #9819 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 11:05 AM
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Hi,

 

Quote:
Signal Quality (snq) - how clearly defined the digital data is

 

Quote:
snq = signal to noise quality (based on analog signal to noise ratio).

 

The first definition was what I was understanding until I started looking at Toast0's charts and source code to try and find SNR which he plots.

 

He has labeled "snq" as "signal_to_noise". It took some time digging into the hdhomerun_development.pdf before I realized what he had done. (What is "dbg=22081-6930", that one reference is not explained.)

 

Signal Quality is a mean-less term to my brain, signal to noise ratio somewhat understood.

 


 

Now to try and understand KTNC's SNR.

 

Equal Signal and Noise must be 50%, the cut off point that if you go below you lose ATSC capture that we have agreed on.

 

100% means no Noise and 0% no Signal.


 

Quote:

KTNC is still stuck at an SNR of 24 dB here this morning. The normal SNR I see is 31 dB which sometimes drops a little if the signal strength drops due to temporary poor conditions.

I am seeing snq ~ 58% - 61% at 10:41 AM. Yesterday evening it was ~ 50% - 55%. The video and audio look flawless at both times.

 

Chuck, can you translate your SNR of 24 dB and 31 dB to the percentage numbers Silicon Dust uses.


At this point

Quote:

a Signal Quality >90%?

appears to be way too high. You have to drop below 50% to see a difference.

 

Looking at Toast0's charts for Surto (Which I went to the website to discover all the DTV signals and found the building permit), all were ~ 80% and higher.

 

Until I looked at KGO RF 35 did I see a SNR (snq) in the range I am seeing for KTNC. ~ 60% or less.

 

If I am reporting "50% - 55%" and someone else is reporting "I am seeing 70%-75% HDHR signal quality on RF14 right now." at about the same time, how can it be a transmitter problem and not just a change in multipath?

 

 

Now off to write a ".BAT" file to capture the stations the KTNC HDHR gets so I have some hard numbers.

 

SHF

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post #9820 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Now to try and understand KTNC's SNR.

Equal Signal and Noise must be 50%, the cut off point that if you go below you lose ATSC capture that we have agreed on.

100% means no Noise and 0% no Signal.


Signal Quality in percentage is an arbitrary scale where some percentage is assigned in software to SNR in dB. It can vary widely and cannot be directly converted to dB unless you know the scaling factor. My Sony TV shows 15 dB for 15% and 32 dB for 100%. My DTVPal DVR shows 15 dB for 53% and 31 dB for 100%.

50% is not equal signal and noise. Equal signal and noise would be where both are equal or 0 dB SNR. 100% does not mean no noise. 31 dB means a ratio of signal-to-noise ratio of 1259. 100% does not mean that's the highest SNR that can exist. Percentage is just a confusion factor and we'd be better off if everyone used dB. At least we'd all be speaking the same language.
 
Quote:
Chuck, can you translate your SNR of 24 dB and 31 dB to the percentage numbers Silicon Dust uses.


See the post Trip made about this:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/7920#post_21145759

Using that scale 24 dB would be 74% and 31 dB would be 92%

Quote:
You have to drop below 50% to see a difference.


50% is probably 15 dB, the digital cliff.

Quote:
If I am reporting "50% - 55%" and someone else is reporting "I am seeing 70%-75% HDHR signal quality on RF14 right now." at about the same time, how can it be a transmitter problem and not just a change in multipath?

As I said above, the percentage is meaningless in terms of dB unless you know the conversion factor. This why I don't like to use percentage.

Chuck


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post #9821 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 01:05 PM
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Hi,

 

Quote:
At least we'd all be speaking the same language.

I do not think we can. :(

 

From my EE classes 40+ years ago what you and Trip plus Larry are talking about appears to be inconsistent.

 

 

"-35 dBmV", "34 dB MER", "dB" and so on. Negative, scale differences, modifiers and so much more. You all mix them up so well.

 

 

It's like my saying UHF antenna and being flamed for using a term that most people here do  not understand.

 

A two column table with HDHR's 0% at the bottom and 100% at the top for the first column and the dB or whatever in the second column might help some people.

 

I do not understand how I might see an improvement in KTNC's SNR if they fix their transmitter.

 

SHF

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post #9822 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,

A very short while, It comes up today but did not yesterday or perhaps the day before. Must have been down for maintenance when I tried the results of Google search.

SHF

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/68321/sinclair-steps-in-to-buy-dielectric

The purchase was in June, and the website was definitely up about two or three months ago when I was digging for information on Dielectric antennas for work. I guess you caught it during some maintenance if it wasn't up for you a day or two ago.

- Trip

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post #9823 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
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I do not understand how I might see an improvement in KTNC's SNR if they fix their transmitter.


The SNR of the transmitter sets the maximum SNR that anyone can get on the receive end. If the transmitter SNR is 24 dB then that's the maximum anyone will ever see. In this example if 24 dB was the transmitter SNR and you were seeing 24 dB at your receiver then if they raised the transmitter SNR to 35 dB the SNR at your receiver might go up. It probably wouldn't go to 35 dB because the smallest amount of multipath would prevent that but it might go to 30 dB.

KTNC has had an SNR of 31 dB here for a long time then one day it dropped to 24 dB. The only real explanation is that their transmitter has developed a problem. No other station is showing this behavior.

Chuck


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post #9824 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

A two column table with HDHR's 0% at the bottom and 100% at the top for the first column and the dB or whatever in the second column might help some people.


Trip's post addresses this:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/369015/san-francisco-ca-ota/7920#post_21145759

47-48% = SNR 15.2 dB, 50% = SNR 16 dB, 100% = SNR 34 dB. You can interpolate the SNR values between 50 and 100%. 0% to 46% are essentially meaningless since the SNR of a signal in that range is below the minimum decodable signal of 15 dB. The best I can tell the SNRs of signals as low as 12 dB can be determined but below that the receiver cannot lock onto the signal to determine the SNR.

Note: MER is the technically correct way to express SNR in the ATSC system. The terms are often used interchangeably.

Chuck


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post #9825 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

I do not understand how I might see an improvement in KTNC's SNR if they fix their transmitter.

...
KTNC has had an SNR of 31 dB here for a long time then one day it dropped to 24 dB. The only real explanation is that their transmitter has developed a problem. No other station is showing this behavior.

Chuck

I am 1/2 way through the third Naked City capture this week and while today is a tiny bit worse than yesterday and the day before, it is still way above what I consider the norm for KTNC which is very bad.

snq was 55 at 12:07 PM and 53 at 5:24 PM. At 6:15 PM it is down to ~ 50%.

Before you reported a SNR drop I remember the numbers being in the 60% - 65% range. AND the captures were much worse. Much worse.

If they have a problem I hope that they do not fix it. biggrin.gif

I watch TV, not analyze when things are good. I do check when a problem is reported but that is a very minor activity for me.

SHF
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post #9826 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 06:51 PM
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This discussion of SNR vs signal strength vs signal quality is quite interesting.

I've checked KTNC off and on for the past couple of days and the SNR has been down a little from normal levels. Normally the station comes in at 22 to 24 dB SNR but for the past two days it's been down to 20-21 dB. Instead of 81% signal strength on the DVR it's at 79%. (For Chuck's info, the AGC shown on the Sony is 51%, which is just about where it always is.)

I've put together a chart showing the signal strength, SNR and Signal Quality comparing my various receivers - Sony TV, Dish DVR and HD Home Run. While not all channels are shown, it has a representation showing from each of the transmitter sites. Also included is the Noise Margin and Power as figured by TV Fool. I have several antennas, each giving a different signal strength for each station, so I've shown the best signal in the chart. I'll include a copy here for those of you interested in comparing signals/receivers and the results found. You'll find it attached.

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sigchart.txt 3k .txt file

sigchart.zip 4k .zip file
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File Type: txt sigchart.txt (2.7 KB, 8 views)
File Type: zip sigchart.zip (4.3 KB, 3 views)

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post #9827 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


"-35 dBmV", "34 dB MER", "dB" and so on. Negative, scale differences, modifiers and so much more. You all mix them up so well.


There's no mixing up going on here.

"-35dBmV" is signal strength where dBmV is referenced to 1 millivolt. dBmV is a holdover from the really old analog days where it was determined that a 1mV video signal was needed to produce a full quieting TV picture. This is completely irrelevant to DTV. 0dBmV is -48.75 dBm (dB referenced to 1 milliwatt) in a 75 ohm system. dBm is the most common system used. -35dBmV is -83.75 dBm which is very close to -84 dBm which is the minimum signal strength required for a properly designed ATSC tuner to decode with 0 uncorrected errors.

"34 dB MER" is Signal to Noise Ratio (often called Signal Quality). There's no need to express this in percent. 15 to 35 dB works just fine. Percent is just a confusion factor that means something different in every receiver. SNR is related to Signal Strength subject to noise and multipath reductions. Receive SNR cannot exceed the transmitter SNR. Signal Strength has no such limit. Increasing the signal strength beyond a certain point will not increase the SNR. Increasing the signal further only increases the noise margin.

"dB" is just a number that has no meaning until it is referenced to something.

The hardest part in explaining Signal Strength, SNR and Noise Margin is getting across how and they're related to each other and where they're not.

If this is still too confusing I'll consider turning it into a picture format.

Chuck


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post #9828 of 11206 Old 11-29-2013, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post


"-35 dBmV", "34 dB MER", "dB" and so on. Negative, scale differences, modifiers and so much more. You all mix them up so well.

...

If this is still too confusing I'll consider turning it into a picture format.

Chuck

Hi,

utube is the format most people expect today.

On another list there is someone who wants to make a utube of an 8 - bit operating system running in an emulator running on Wine (Which is a Windows emulator AFAIK) running on Linux eek.gif

My interest is getting to be very low on this subject. On KTNC Naked City is very watchable these days, that's what my real interest is.

Now if this was fifty years ago and I had to pass a EE test, then I would try to understand. I might have the textbook still.

I do have some interest in getting the HDHR scan output into human readable format and CSV format so it can be imported into a spreadsheet and sorted to compare scans months apart. I am making great progress on that finally.

If you consider a chart a picture, then go for it. That's what I would do. Spreadsheet format at least.

SHF
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post #9829 of 11206 Old 11-30-2013, 07:55 AM
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K02QO becomes KFTY

I noticed that K02QO (Construction Permit for 3KW on Mt. St. Helena on channel 2) disappeared from the FCC database. A little research shows it is now KFTY! I don't know when that happened and I can't find an application for a call sign change.

I wonder if any of these low VHF stations will ever come on the air?

Chuck


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post #9830 of 11206 Old 11-30-2013, 08:20 AM
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Interesting. KFTY was the prior name of KEMO, channel 50 (32), in Santa Rosa. The call sign change happened las year when the station was sold.

Bobby 

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post #9831 of 11206 Old 11-30-2013, 03:27 PM
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Bobby... do you know if KFTY channel 2 has moved from their original site northwest of Cloverdale to Mt. St. Helena yet? I still have it shown at Cloverdale on my DTV Station lists and want to update it if they've moved.

There's also a channel 3, K03IC, at the same site near Cloverdale. Can you receive it at your location off the back of your antenna? I haven't heard anything about them moving.

Larry

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post #9832 of 11206 Old 11-30-2013, 04:54 PM
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Larry,

My 4228 won't receive low VHF at all, so I can't see it at all. Not a clue about the move....

Bobby 

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post #9833 of 11206 Old 12-01-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Bobby... do you know if KFTY channel 2 has moved from their original site northwest of Cloverdale to Mt. St. Helena yet? I still have it shown at Cloverdale on my DTV Station lists and want to update it if they've moved.

There's also a channel 3, K03IC, at the same site near Cloverdale. Can you receive it at your location off the back of your antenna? I haven't heard anything about them moving.

Larry


They have not filed a license to cover with the FCC so they're not on. With 3KW into an omni from that location I should be able to at least see a signal on the spectrum analyzer once they come on using my FM antenna. They may be too weak to decode. With a real low VHF antenna they should be pretty easy to receive here.

In an STA they filed on 8/28/2013 they said they were in the process of moving the station to Mt. St. Helena. What's taking them so long? Or is this another case of lying to the FCC?

Chuck


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post #9834 of 11206 Old 12-02-2013, 11:29 AM
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High F/B Ratio UHF TV Log Periodic Antenna

A few days ago I was experimenting with log periodic designs and found that a very long LP was predicted to have a vey high F/B ratio. This piqued my interest since reflections are such a problem here and I'm always on the lookout for higher F/B antenna. I contacted the author of the LP design program and he graciously offered to run the design through 4NEC2 to see what the predicted performance looked like. After a slight modification to the design he sent me the output graphs. The antenna is 37 elements on a 10' boom.

The first graph shows the predicted gain and F/B ratio. I added the Sacramento stations located at Walnut Grove and I added the modeled gain of the 91XG and F/B numbers I have measured to the F/B graph. The LP gain outperforms the 91XG at the low end but underperforms at the high end. The predicted F/B ratio outperforms the 91XG over most of the band. If real world performance comes close to the modeled values then the antenna should greatly improve my SNRs on the Walnut Grove stations since those are limited by reflections directly off the back of the antenna.

The second image shows the antenna pattern at 470 MHz. The third image shows the VSWR.

I'm hoping to get one of these built in the next month or so. Testing it will just be a matter of finding a decent weather day to try it.

Chuck







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post #9835 of 11206 Old 12-05-2013, 08:32 PM
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KACA Flashcut to Digital Today

I guess this is really for Larry to update his list since no one in the Bay Area will see this station.

KACA is a Daystar station a little northwest of Modesto in the flats of the valley on 459' tower. It is 51 miles from here. Their analog signal was about 90% quieting here so I didn't expect much out of 10KW ERP digital which is much lower power than the analog transmitter. To my surprise it's a booming 10KW, about the same strength as KQCA in Walnut Grove that runs 600 KW. I guess this shows what a bad shot to Walnut Grove I have (54 miles). I'm getting SNR 28 dB on KACA and it's a 1 edge path. TVFool says the NM should be -15 dB here. Here's their terrain plot:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dcc49e65f5d3c18%26t%3dDIGITAL2%26n%3d25

The only strange thing about it is that on both my receivers the first program I saw had a squished 4:3 picture and has to be expanded horizontally to look right. Then the next program looked fine.

A couple of images are attached.

Chuck





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post #9836 of 11206 Old 12-05-2013, 11:41 PM
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KACA ... Weird transmitter location.

Models show signal coverage up to... and sharp cutoff west of Vasco Road.... in Brentwood / Oakley.

Lucky viewers in Brentwood / Oakley now have 2 Daystar channels.biggrin.gif
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post #9837 of 11206 Old 12-06-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 888CALLFCC View Post

KACA ... Weird transmitter location.

There used to be more LP stations on the air located near Modesto but they've all gone off the air.

It would make more sense to me to have one full power station with a bunch of sub channels like KAXT that carried multiple religious channels, shopping channels, and that sort of stuff. They're all SD and it's a waste of bandwidth for each one to have its own channel.

Quote:
Lucky viewers in Brentwood / Oakley now have 2 Daystar channels.biggrin.gif

What is the other one?

Chuck


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post #9838 of 11206 Old 12-06-2013, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post


What is the other one?

Chuck

I believe KDTS 52-1, (RF8) from Mt. Diablo would overlap in that city. Another Daystar.
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post #9839 of 11206 Old 12-06-2013, 06:34 PM
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Hi,

"Wheeler Delays Spectrum Auction Until 2015".

From: AVS Official Topic - The FCC & Broadcast Spectrum

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1216722/avs-official-topic-the-fcc-broadcast-spectrum/2850#post_24042060

Surprise!
Quote:
“The FCC has not yet attracted anything approaching the critical mass of TV station volunteers that will be necessary to have a successful auction,” he wrote in his prepared testimony. “Without sufficient TV station volunteers, the FCC will have no spectrum to auction.”

Perhaps the buyers of KCSM may live to regret their purchase and must keep the station on the air.

SHF

P.S. I apparently miss-understood, I thought that Congress required the first auction to be held before the end of 2014
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post #9840 of 11206 Old 12-06-2013, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

KACA Flashcut to Digital Today

I guess this is really for Larry to update his list since no one in the Bay Area will see this station.

KACA is a Daystar station a little northwest of Modesto in the flats of the valley on 459' tower.

Thanks for the update, Chuck.

I notice that they show their channel as 34. Is that also the channel they transmit on?

I hope they're more stable than the Daystar station on Diablo (channel 52, RF 8).

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists:
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Check out photos and info on my antennas:
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