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post #10801 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
Thanks all for your apples, but I'm not trying to find out things I can try. I know what kind of things I can try. I'm trying to find out if other people have an issue with KRON from Fremont to know if it is worth trying other things. If I see other people have an issue with the station then I can figure it isn't worth trying. Moving my antenna onto the roof takes a lot more work so I want to see if it is even worth trying.

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Monte

There's no inherent problem with KRON in Fremont. That wouldn't make any sense. The problem is with your setup. If you know how to fix it, then you should do that.

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post #10802 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
Thanks all for your apples, but I'm not trying to find out things I can try. I know what kind of things I can try. I'm trying to find out if other people have an issue with KRON from Fremont to know if it is worth trying other things. If I see other people have an issue with the station then I can figure it isn't worth trying. Moving my antenna onto the roof takes a lot more work so I want to see if it is even worth trying.

Thanks
Monte
Problems with KRON VC 4 RF 38 have been rarely if ever been reported from anywhere.

The more common problem is with KPIX VC 5 RF 29 which there have been many reports. Why, no understanding has come to light.

The small movement of your antenna to make a change in RF 38 is not very large at all, less than one foot might do the job.


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post #10803 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Problems with KRON VC 4 RF 38 have been rarely if ever been reported from anywhere.

The more common problem is with KPIX VC 5 RF 29 which there have been many reports. Why, no understanding has come to light.

The small movement of your antenna to make a change in RF 38 is not very large at all, less than one foot might do the job.


SHF
Where do you see these reports? This forum? So far KPIX has been rock solid for me since I last moved the antenna. Everything pretty much except KRON and Mundo occasionally drop out.
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post #10804 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
Where do you see these reports? This forum? So far KPIX has been rock solid for me since I last moved the antenna. Everything pretty much except KRON and Mundo occasionally drop out.
Yes, there have been several reports on this thread from people having trouble receiving KPIX over the years. I think you're the first one reporting a problem with KRON.

Your last sentence (above) might offer the cause of the problem... the stations' frequencies. KRON transmits on channel 38 and KNCS (MundoFOX) transmits on 39. It appears that something in your area is causing a multipath problem for those two channels. As others have said, moving the antenna just a short foot or two could make all the difference in the world. There's no telling what moving the antenna will do to other channels, though.

I have a UHF antenna pointed north to get KRCB and KEMO from Sonoma County. It took a lot of moving the antenna around to find a spot where I could receive both stations. Some spots would give a good signal for KRCB but not KEMO, while others would be good for KEMO but not KRCB. I finally found a spot that is 4 feet off my roof where both stations come in strong, and I also get an excellent signal from KTLN out of Novato as well. It also gives me a weak signal for K03HY on channel 3 from Mt. Tam, even though the antenna is not cut for VHF at all.

Good luck in your efforts to get KRON better.

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post #10805 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 10:21 PM
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Yes, there have been several reports on this thread from people having trouble receiving KPIX over the years. I think you're the first one reporting a problem with KRON.

Your last sentence (above) might offer the cause of the problem... the stations' frequencies. KRON transmits on channel 38 and KNCS (MundoFOX) transmits on 39. It appears that something in your area is causing a multipath problem for those two channels. As others have said, moving the antenna just a short foot or two could make all the difference in the world. There's no telling what moving the antenna will do to other channels, though.

I have a UHF antenna pointed north to get KRCB and KEMO from Sonoma County. It took a lot of moving the antenna around to find a spot where I could receive both stations. Some spots would give a good signal for KRCB but not KEMO, while others would be good for KEMO but not KRCB. I finally found a spot that is 4 feet off my roof where both stations come in strong, and I also get an excellent signal from KTLN out of Novato as well. It also gives me a weak signal for K03HY on channel 3 from Mt. Tam, even though the antenna is not cut for VHF at all.

Good luck in your efforts to get KRON better.

Larry
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It's quite possible, but KRON was never good to begin with. Seeing KRON and KPIX come in from the same direction I was hoping fixing one would fix the other. But apparently it did not. Which is why I asked if people in general have a problem with KRON. Like if some transmitter in Fremont was sending out a signal that was interfering. But since no one has said anything, either there's no problem with kron, or no one has reported any problems. I know the chances are low, but could happen.
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post #10806 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
Where do you see these reports? This forum? So far KPIX has been rock solid for me since I last moved the antenna. Everything pretty much except KRON and Mundo occasionally drop out.
Problems with multipath are reported all over these forums. Why do I get this channel, but not this one? For what it's worth, in one room here a Leaf indoor antenna just loves KCRA (rf 35). The Leaf has been located for soccer lately. In that position KMAX produces no A/V. Both channels are from Walnut Grove.
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post #10807 of 10906 Old 06-30-2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
It's quite possible, but KRON was never good to begin with. Seeing KRON and KPIX come in from the same direction I was hoping fixing one would fix the other. But apparently it did not. Which is why I asked if people in general have a problem with KRON. Like if some transmitter in Fremont was sending out a signal that was interfering. But since no one has said anything, either there's no problem with kron, or no one has reported any problems. I know the chances are low, but could happen.
If you are willing to PM your exact address I can check further, most persons who ask for help either supply their TVFool link or are quickly asked to do so. I wondered from reading your first post where exactly you are.

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Originally Posted by
I know the chances are low, but could happen.

The real experts on this thread would quickly jump on something like that and take it to the FCC if needed.


Why did I say no problems with KRON, yes from reading this forum and the Yahoo SF Bay list also.


SHF
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post #10808 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 01:14 AM
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And so, it continues ... 42.4 ThisTV, is black as of this evening ....
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post #10809 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
It's quite possible, but KRON was never good to begin with. Seeing KRON and KPIX come in from the same direction I was hoping fixing one would fix the other. But apparently it did not. Which is why I asked if people in general have a problem with KRON. Like if some transmitter in Fremont was sending out a signal that was interfering. But since no one has said anything, either there's no problem with kron, or no one has reported any problems. I know the chances are low, but could happen.

In the DTV reception game I've learned you can never completely rule out anything but interference from another transmitter is extremely remote, like looking for a zebra in a herd of horses, one of the very last things you'd consider. Multipath is far and away the most likely reason for poor reception after weak signals and Fremont doesn't have weak signals. The Bay Area is renown for reflections and any antenna that can't see the transmitter will be subject to this issue. It's reasonable to assume that an antenna at 8' in Fremont cannot see Sutro Tower. There's no predicting which stations may have reflection issues. It's just luck of the draw. The first thing to try is put the antenna higher so the antenna is less blocked or unblocked to the transmitter. If the problem persists then it's time to look at other possibilities.

Chuck
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post #10810 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 08:33 AM
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In the DTV reception game I've learned you can never completely rule out anything but interference from another transmitter is extremely remote, like looking for a zebra in a herd of horses, one of the very last things you'd consider. Multipath is far and away the most likely reason for poor reception after weak signals and Fremont doesn't have weak signals. The Bay Area is renown for reflections and any antenna that can't see the transmitter will be subject to this issue. It's reasonable to assume that an antenna at 8' in Fremont cannot see Sutro Tower. There's no predicting which stations may have reflection issues. It's just luck of the draw. The first thing to try is put the antenna higher so the antenna is less blocked or unblocked to the transmitter. If the problem persists then it's time to look at other possibilities.

Chuck
I'm guessing I'd have to put the antenna another 20 feet higher than my roof to actually see sutro tower. And I'm not going to do that. Does LOS prevent multipath or just reduce it?

Someone mentioned my antenna might be overkill. Does that mean it might be too strong and picking up other signals that are interfering or just saying it is better than needed, but not implying anything by that?

Monte
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post #10811 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Monte324 View Post
I'm guessing I'd have to put the antenna another 20 feet higher than my roof to actually see sutro tower. And I'm not going to do that. Does LOS prevent multipath or just reduce it?

Someone mentioned my antenna might be overkill. Does that mean it might be too strong and picking up other signals that are interfering or just saying it is better than needed, but not implying anything by that?

Monte

When you have LOS, in almost all cases the main path signal is so dominant that multipath is not an issue. There are still reflections so multipath exists but the reflections are normally weak compared to the main path signal. LOS within about 30 miles virtually guarantees perfect reception. Reception problems at < 30 miles are almost always from poor antenna siting no matter what that may imply. When you get farther from the transmitter atmospheric conditions become more significant and can cause signals to be attenuated resulting in periods of poor or no reception. This certainly is not always the case but it is frequently reported.

There are a couple of kinds of multipath. One occurs when obstacles (like trees) on the main path cause the signal to be broken into multiple paths. No antenna is going to fix that because all the signals are in the same direction and getting above the vegetation is the only solution although sometimes moving the antenna can improve that situation if it doesn't make another channel worse. Then there are reflections that come from widely varying directions. A highly directional antenna can improve that a lot.

I have both of those problems here. I need highly directional antennas to reduce the reflections enough so I can receive the stations at all but multiple signals on the main path cause me to have lower SNRs than what the strength of the signals would suggest. I've tried moving the antennas around and SNRs go up and down but there doesn't seem to be any magic location for all the stations.

I don't believe your antenna is overkill.

Although I read it all the time, I have no answer when people tell me they don't want to put up the antenna needed to receive the stations they want. If you have the maximum installation you're willing to do, then you have to accept whatever that receives.

BTW, when you said your antenna was at 8', I assumed that to mean 8' off the ground and not 8' above the roof. But reading your other comments I may have misinterpreted that. If it's 8' off the ground, then a roof installation should improve things a lot. If it's 8' above the roof then yes, you'd probably have to go much higher.

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post #10812 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 11:29 AM
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When you have LOS, in almost all cases the main path signal is so dominant that multipath is not an issue. There are still reflections so multipath exists but the reflections are normally weak compared to the main path signal. LOS within about 30 miles virtually guarantees perfect reception. Reception problems at < 30 miles are almost always from poor antenna siting no matter what that may imply. When you get farther from the transmitter atmospheric conditions become more significant and can cause signals to be attenuated resulting in periods of poor or no reception. This certainly is not always the case but it is frequently reported.

There are a couple of kinds of multipath. One occurs when obstacles (like trees) on the main path cause the signal to be broken into multiple paths. No antenna is going to fix that because all the signals are in the same direction and getting above the vegetation is the only solution although sometimes moving the antenna can improve that situation if it doesn't make another channel worse. Then there are reflections that come from widely varying directions. A highly directional antenna can improve that a lot.

I have both of those problems here. I need highly directional antennas to reduce the reflections enough so I can receive the stations at all but multiple signals on the main path cause me to have lower SNRs than what the strength of the signals would suggest. I've tried moving the antennas around and SNRs go up and down but there doesn't seem to be any magic location for all the stations.

I don't believe your antenna is overkill.

Although I read it all the time, I have no answer when people tell me they don't want to put up the antenna needed to receive the stations they want. If you have the maximum installation you're willing to do, then you have to accept whatever that receives.

BTW, when you said your antenna was at 8', I assumed that to mean 8' off the ground and not 8' above the roof. But reading your other comments I may have misinterpreted that. If it's 8' off the ground, then a roof installation should improve things a lot. If it's 8' above the roof then yes, you'd probably have to go much higher.

Chuck
I did mean 8 feet off the ground. Of course roof mounted would be best, but that requires a lot more planning than just sitting it on the ground. The cm2020 is not that small and the roof is pretty high. Which is why I asked if there were any known problems before moving to a more better, but much more bigger task. Doing adjustments to a roof mounted antenna requires a lot more than a ground mounted one too. Which is why I wanted to eliminate all of the easy things first.
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post #10813 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 11:50 AM
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And so, it continues ... 42.4 ThisTV, is black as of this evening ....
Yes I see the black screen also. The PSIP no longer says "ThisTV" but "42.4".

The second shoe has dropped like I expected.

Trip said that "Retro' ("RTV") did not pay KTNC which got me thinking, how do they gain from carrying the non Spanish streams they had at one time.

MeTV on KOFY, is one of the added streams which is doing quite well. KOFY at one time this year was hiring "Account" Managers.

Looking at the other added streams one point comes to .light.

The English streams added to a main English stream are doing quite well.

The English streams added to a non-English main stream have failed or appear to be about to fail.

KTNC has Spanish only speakers in their sales force, one that is doing a poor job selling ads for the English streams.

KTNC got the money (Perhaps NONE) for inserting ads into the English streams. No ads were sold so none could be inserted thus no money coming in and the management finally turned the stream(s) off.

KRON with "AntennaTV" and KNTV with "COZI" appear to doing quite well. I can see a flash sometimes when the local ads were inserted.

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post #10814 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 12:33 PM
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Yes I see the black screen also. The PSIP no longer says "ThisTV" but "42.4".

The second shoe has dropped like I expected.

Trip said that "Retro' ("RTV") did not pay KTNC which got me thinking, how do they gain from carrying the non Spanish streams they had at one time.

MeTV on KOFY, is one of the added streams which is doing quite well. KOFY at one time this year was hiring "Account" Managers.

Looking at the other added streams one point comes to .light.

The English streams added to a main English stream are doing quite well.

The English streams added to a non-English main stream have failed or appear to be about to fail.

KTNC has Spanish only speakers in their sales force, one that is doing a poor job selling ads for the English streams.

KTNC got the money (Perhaps NONE) for inserting ads into the English streams. No ads were sold so none could be inserted thus no money coming in and the management finally turned the stream(s) off.

KRON with "AntennaTV" and KNTV with "COZI" appear to doing quite well. I can see a flash sometimes when the local ads were inserted.

SHF
Interesting observation. Assuming you are correct, with so many non-english speaking primaries in this region, it really limits the possible landing spots for English speaking sub-channels. Do you think that RTV and This will be back, elsewhere on the "dial" or will they just assume that the Bay Area is not a good market for them and abandon it? And when is the Movies! channel going to show up? Long wait on those folks!

One other thought, Bounce appears to be doing fine as a sub of a Spanish-speaking primary. Gotta wonder how that happened!

Actually, now that I think of it, KGO is going to abandon it's sub-channel(s) at the end of the year, so that will open up some possibilities.

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post #10815 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 04:21 PM
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Interesting observation. Assuming you are correct, with so many non-english speaking primaries in this region, it really limits the possible landing spots for English speaking sub-channels. Do you think that RTV and This will be back, elsewhere on the "dial" or will they just assume that the Bay Area is not a good market for them and abandon it? And when is the Movies! channel going to show up? Long wait on those folks!

One other thought, Bounce appears to be doing fine as a sub of a Spanish-speaking primary. Gotta wonder how that happened!

Actually, now that I think of it, KGO is going to abandon it's sub-channel(s) at the end of the year, so that will open up some possibilities.
Local ads for English streams are not what people wanting to run ads are used to. A good sales force could change that but it's a chicken and egg problem.

What are the ads on Bounce, National Lawyer, Pasta Boat, NoNoPro which does what with it's flashing blue light?

The LP analog Spanish stations South of here do just fine as the viewers and the stores match up.

RTV, ThisTV both came from other stations so that is the second failure for them.

KBCW is the one station that might succeed with some of the "Bounced" streams, but they are not allowed to have any sub streams.

It does not look good for RTV, ThisTV, Bounce, The Works, Movies! and GetTV .

Watch the ads on those stations and you can see where they are going.

SHF
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post #10816 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 04:39 PM
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Local ads for English streams are not what people wanting to run ads are used to. A good sales force could change that but it's a chicken and egg problem.

What are the ads on Bounce, National Lawyer, Pasta Boat, NoNoPro which does what with it's flashing blue light?

The LP analog Spanish stations South of here do just fine as the viewers and the stores match up.

RTV, ThisTV both came from other stations so that is the second failure for them.

KBCW is the one station that might succeed with some of the "Bounced" streams, but they are not allowed to have any sub streams.

It does not look good for RTV, ThisTV, Bounce, The Works, Movies! and GetTV .

Watch the ads on those stations and you can see where they are going.

SHF
Well, isn't that just good news. Those are pretty much all the channels I watch on OTA. Seems odd that OTAs don't know how to market / monetize their sub-channel products.

What's the reason KBCW can't run any subchannels, the CW won't let them? And what are you referring to with the flashing blue light comment (I don't watch the ads).

I was hoping for a re-birth of OTA, led by all these small sub-channels with their movie / oldies products that don't currently have any other outlet on the network channels. Would altering the must carry rules for cable to include the subchannels make them viable, or is that just a pipe-dream?

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post #10817 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 05:02 PM
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Seems odd that OTAs don't know how to market / monetize their sub-channel products.
Not odd as they never have done much local ads as far as I remember.

KPIX and KBCW as well as other CBS O&O are not allowed sub streams all across the USA.

Those are my main streams also. And I just watched the USA loss in the World Cup with the audio off as it was in Spanish.

In this market the major stations run ads that follow the national ads , usually not local.

COZI, MeTV, AntennaTV may be here to stay, the others perhaps not.

After the DTV repack lots of streams I watch may be gone. (If KAXT clones appear then perhaps not.)

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post #10818 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 06:24 PM
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KPIX and KBCW as well as other CBS O&O are not allowed sub streams all across the USA.
Not quite. CBS has been launching local news subchannels, and has put them on WCBS, KCBS, and KDKA. And they picked up Me-TV in Dallas on KTXA when it was unceremoniously dropped by KTXD there. They also run Mobile DTV in a few markets.

Otherwise, yes, CBS has done no subchannels.

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post #10819 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 06:36 PM
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Not quite. CBS has been launching local news subchannels, and has put them on WCBS, KCBS, and KDKA. And they picked up Me-TV in Dallas on KTXA when it was unceremoniously dropped by KTXD there. They also run Mobile DTV in a few markets.

Otherwise, yes, CBS has done no subchannels.

- Trip
Local news sub channels, was that not tried already and failed? ABC???


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post #10820 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 09:36 PM
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I did mean 8 feet off the ground. Of course roof mounted would be best, but that requires a lot more planning than just sitting it on the ground. The cm2020 is not that small and the roof is pretty high. Which is why I asked if there were any known problems before moving to a more better, but much more bigger task. Doing adjustments to a roof mounted antenna requires a lot more than a ground mounted one too. Which is why I wanted to eliminate all of the easy things first.
The problem may not be the antenna itself.... A broken balun lug, kinked shorted out cable, using hand "push on" F connectors,... can give the same results.
I've seen antennas on roofs aimed "backwards" too.

Fremont has excellent reception, ... except Palomares Canyon Road .... and those areas with a "rock shadow" between San Francisco and Fremont.
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post #10821 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 09:49 PM
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EDIT,

Using those hand "Twist-on" F cable connectors ( commonly sold at drugstores, etc) is bad news.

You can twist/crush the foam dielectric shielding between the center conductor and outer shield.
Just one strand of outer shield (and foil) touching the center conductor will give a shorted out cable.

It's easy to blame the antenna for bad performance.... But you have to be sure.... to be sure....to be sure. (whatever that means)
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post #10822 of 10906 Old 07-01-2014, 10:06 PM
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You may have missed the point that just KRON being poorly received is the problem.

SHF

When I tried my first ATSC tuner (PCI) I got nothing. zip, zero, zilch.

I sat there stunned. $250 down the drain?

Then I replaced the black VCR cable with push on connectors with a real cable.

Most of the stations were already digital including KCSM which was the reason I got the ATSC MyHD card.

All those black cables were found and put into a special place never to be used again.

Last edited by SFischer1; 07-01-2014 at 10:16 PM.
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post #10823 of 10906 Old 07-02-2014, 01:50 PM
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Ktvj

The FCC granted the application today for KTVJ to share the K03HY antenna. Now it's time to see when and if it comes on the air.

Keith filed a bunch of applications for a 6 month extension to construct various stations.

Chuck
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post #10824 of 10906 Old 07-03-2014, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlieB-oz View Post
IMHO, from watching Fox O&O's in several markets from time to time, the stations' newscasts are generally in line with their competitors and their local audience more than trying to emulate their cable TV sister. TV Newscheck has an article today that says FOX is expanding newscasts on their stations in nine markets, including Philadelphia, Phoenix, L.A., Atlanta, and D.C.; that suggests possibly more resources for SFO-SJ. Last year NBC began beefing up their local news product. I hope the suits at Fox TV stations take note of the fact that KTVU's reputation and ratings come from solid journalism attuned to the Bay Area.

KTVU filed an application with the FCC today for the sale of KTVU, KICU and K29AB or more officially an "APPLICATION FOR CONSENT TO ASSIGNMENT OF BROADCAST STATION CONSTRUCTION PERMIT OR LICENSE."

Chuck
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post #10825 of 10906 Old 07-03-2014, 04:50 PM
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Unhappy KCSM TV Programming Change

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCSM
On Tuesday, July 15th, KCSM will change its program line up. All MHZ programming, including the International Mystery series, will be discontinued. KCSM will broadcast a mix of programming made available from American Public Television, National Educational Television Association, and other program providers. Thank you for watching KCSM TV. MHz programming is available at their website http://www.mhznetworks.org/mhz-worldview/live
My TV most watched programs will be going away, much sooner than I expected!

SHF


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Last edited by SFischer1; 07-05-2014 at 01:37 PM.
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post #10826 of 10906 Old 07-04-2014, 07:57 AM
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Okay. Very strange conditions this morning. KBTV and KEZT in Sacramento are both coming in. Sutro is out. LOS stations KEXT and KBSV are way down. I've never seen that before. Salinas is booming. KSBW is the 2nd strongest station after KUVS which is always #1 . KQET is overriding KOVR when I point at it which happens from time to time.

The KSBW weather guy said the top of the marine layer is 3000' this morning.

Chuck
This morning had shifting skip conditions for Winton this morning before 6am. I was picking up KMUM/TLMD (virt 15, rf 31) along with KBTV 8 and KEZT 23. I was also picking up KEZT.03 and KEZT.03 (Bounce). A bit later, KHSL Chico/Cohasset were coming in strong.

I can't find any fcc references to KEZT.02/.03 - Do you have any info, Chuck?

Thanks in advance....
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post #10827 of 10906 Old 07-04-2014, 08:31 AM
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On Tuesday, July 15th, KCSM will change its program line up. All MHZ programming, including the International Mystery series, will be discontinued.
This just sucks. It's all we watch! Let's just auction their bandwidth now and put us out of our misery.
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post #10828 of 10906 Old 07-04-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ftateche View Post
This morning had shifting skip conditions for Winton this morning before 6am. I was picking up KMUM/TLMD (virt 15, rf 31) along with KBTV 8 and KEZT 23. I was also picking up KEZT.03 and KEZT.03 (Bounce). A bit later, KHSL Chico/Cohasset were coming in strong.

I can't find any fcc references to KEZT.02/.03 - Do you have any info, Chuck?

Thanks in advance....
I don't think the FCC maintains data for what programming the channels carry. Rabbitears does but doesn't show .2 or .3 for KEZT. When I've been able to receive KEZT I only see HSN on .1.

I've experienced a large variation in conditions over the last week at all times during the day and night with persistently good conditions for Salinas. Sutro has gone from no signals at times to booming signals at other times.

Chuck
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post #10829 of 10906 Old 07-04-2014, 12:06 PM
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My TV most watched programs will be going away, much sooner than I expected!

SHF
Sad. Nice change of pace programming, but, I guess in the end, folks are just too lazy to read subtitles. Now, all it'll be is stuff from England ... sigh.
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post #10830 of 10906 Old 07-04-2014, 12:09 PM
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This just sucks. It's all we watch! Let's just auction their bandwidth now and put us out of our misery.
KCSM is in a death spiral. The last stage may be a slide saying "Welcome to KCSM, we have NO programming" . (24/7/366) BTY, they have already been sold.

Every $1 they spend on KCSM is a $1 less to spend on their students education, their main purpose and why they put KCSM on the air originally.

MHZ on their page says the cost to KCSM for MHz programs was zero ($0). KMTP may be the only alternate, but they are a lost cause.

It might be that they are taking out and selling the great $$$$$ master control which the maker was so proud of the sale. Right when the maker announced the sale KCSM announced that they needed $2M in two months or they were going off the air. Everything may be on tape / DVD. I.E. nothing live from Satellite.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 07-04-2014 at 05:55 PM.
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