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post #10831 of 11353 Old 07-04-2014, 12:29 PM
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Antenna project update

Thanks for the responses a ways back. Here's a progress report.

Our SF Western Addition residence now has a 91XG UHF antenna installed 45 feet or so off the ground.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e1c66580592ca0

Toying with the rotor, scanning has produced anywhere from 28 channels
(antenna pointed approximately 50° True, if I'm correct) to a whopping 83 channels (around 123° True). Thanks, KAXT!

In the latter position, I can even get a steady read on KNTV NBC 11, with signal strength at 75 or higher. No VHF antenna needed.

Here are 13 images of the Dish Network EPG, displaying the OTA channels after a 77 channel scan. Apologies if your page loading times are significantly affected. Incidentally, that's the always glitchy Channel 3 (Mt. Tam transmitter locale) pictured in the upper left corners.













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post #10832 of 11353 Old 07-04-2014, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
MHZ on their page says the costs to KCSM to MHz was zero ($0).
Confirmed. Unbelievable!

https://www.facebook.com/MHzWorldvie...52281958429217
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post #10833 of 11353 Old 07-04-2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTnA View Post
Thanks for the responses a ways back. Here's a progress report.

Our SF Western Addition residence now has a 91XG UHF antenna installed 45 feet or so off the ground.

Incidentally, that's the always glitchy Channel 3 (Mt. Tam transmitter locale) pictured in the upper left corners.
Looks like you're only missing KKPX 65.

You're getting K03HY on a 91XG? I never would have guessed. They're having intermittent link problems. I see the same thing on KFTY. It comes and goes.

Chuck
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post #10834 of 11353 Old 07-04-2014, 08:04 PM
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KKPX comes in fine when I use the rotor to repoint the antenna.

K03H6Y always has those breakups for me. It's actually worse than the pictures indicate. Whether I'm using the 91XG or my C5, it's the same.

I've had no luck at all picking up KFTY. I can get some stations from transmitters up north, KEMO being the furthest.
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post #10835 of 11353 Old 07-05-2014, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTnA View Post
K03H6Y always has those breakups for me. It's actually worse than the pictures indicate. Whether I'm using the 91XG or my C5, it's the same.
You probably have a lot of local interference/noise which is expected on low VHF in the city. The C5 is not a low VHF antenna either so if you were really interested in that station you would need a real low VHF antenna. Low VHF is hard enough as it is but using an antenna with no gain and no normal pattern makes it much harder. There's little or no noise rejection. Since I put up my 8 element log periodic for low VHF as an experiment KFTY is in here 99.9% of the time at 119 miles but I have much less noise to deal with than in the city.

Chuck
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post #10836 of 11353 Old 07-05-2014, 09:59 AM
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Thanks for the explanation. I figured it had to do with low VHF interference.

Not really interested in that particular station, but if and when KTVJ starts transmitting from Mt. Tam, I may want to spring for a low VHF antenna like what you have - a little smaller antenna would hopefully do the job.
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post #10837 of 11353 Old 07-06-2014, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Looks like you're only missing KKPX 65.

You're getting K03HY on a 91XG? I never would have guessed. They're having intermittent link problems. I see the same thing on KFTY. It comes and goes.

Chuck
I'm a few days late responding. I was out of town for the holiday weekend.

I also noticed that OTnA is also missing KQED 9 (30) in his list of OTA stations.

K03HY has a really strong signal here in the city. I get it at 23 dB SNR on my Sony using the C5 antenna that's aimed for best reception of KNTV. I hope it works for KTVJ, too, when it comes on the air.

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post #10838 of 11353 Old 07-07-2014, 08:41 AM
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Thanks for the catch on KQED. That particular scan - at around 125 degrees True - didn't pick it up for whatever reason. I've received KQED with signal strength at 100 on several other scans.

Your TV Log web pages are a go-to for me, Larry. A great guide for SF OTA.
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post #10839 of 11353 Old 07-07-2014, 08:15 PM
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Knop - North Platte, NE

Big Es openings the last couple of days. I put in an hour tonight to log this new one. It's very hard to decode a picture when there are several stations coming in at the same time. I saw a digital signal on RF 4 but it had stiff competition from an analog station. I don't know what it was.

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post #10840 of 11353 Old 07-07-2014, 08:28 PM
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And problems locally.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/30344


NBC11 Problems tonight
Watching the game tonight and 11 seems to be having some audio hiccups and a bit of pixelation every now and then. 11 is usually very solid OTA so is anyone
scottc6666 31 minutes ago


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/30345


Re: NBC11 Problems tonight
Same here. *Jon Johnsen Richmond, CA*
JonJohnsen 9 minutes ago


SHF
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post #10841 of 11353 Old 07-07-2014, 09:56 PM
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I made an animation of 20 successive spectrum analyzer sweeps showing how unstable the sporadic-E signal is from KNOP. This is why it's so hard to decode. The video carrier from a another station is visible part of the time 1.25 MHz up from the bottom of the signal. Some power line noise is seen just below the signal. The upper 2 MHZ of the display shows KCSO 3 which doesn't change since it's local.

Chuck


https://dl.dropbox.com/s/y3zazxu1whj...c-E-Signal.gif
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post #10842 of 11353 Old 07-08-2014, 01:36 AM
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OTna... glad to hear that the station list has been useful!

Chuck... Congratulations on the North Platt KNOP logging!

Larry

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post #10843 of 11353 Old 07-08-2014, 10:32 AM
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I don't know when it started but KBCW hasn't had a very good signal here for maybe a week or two. KBCW is normally the strongest Sutro UHF station here but it seems to be about 10 dB down in strength. Even under good conditions to Sutro the strength has remained low. A lot of the time I can't even receive it. Usually it's the opposite. Has anyone noticed a change in KBCW? All other stations from all directions seem to be normal. Could be just peculiar conditions.

Chuck

Edit: All it takes is post like this to get things to clear up. At 4 pm Sutro signals are booming with some SNRs at 31 dB including KBCW. Who knows why previous good conditions were bad for one station.

Last edited by Calaveras; 07-08-2014 at 04:26 PM.
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post #10844 of 11353 Old 07-08-2014, 12:33 PM
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anyone have any problems with the FOX (2.1) broadcast of the Giants-Padres game on Saturday? we typically have very strong signal for that station and our Sony TV lost signal during several moments during the game midway through. later on, things were back to normal.
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post #10845 of 11353 Old 07-08-2014, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek87 View Post
anyone have any problems with the FOX (2.1) broadcast of the Giants-Padres game on Saturday? we typically have very strong signal for that station and our Sony TV lost signal during several moments during the game midway through. later on, things were back to normal.
FOX was perfect for us (Evergreen Area of San Jose) for the game but we did have some issues with KNTV 11 for last night's game, and 11 is usually spot on for us, the same as 2.1.
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post #10846 of 11353 Old 07-08-2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I don't know when it started but KBCW hasn't had a very good signal here for maybe a week or two. KBCW is normally the strongest Sutro UHF station here but it seems to be about 10 dB down in strength. Even under good conditions to Sutro the strength has remained low. A lot of the time I can't even receive it. Usually it's the opposite. Has anyone noticed a change in KBCW? All other stations from all directions seem to be normal. Could be just peculiar conditions.

Chuck

Edit: All it takes is post like this to get things to clear up. At 4 pm Sutro signals are booming with some SNRs at 31 dB including KBCW. Who knows why previous good conditions were bad for one station.
it might not be the conditions, it could be the station.
milt
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post #10847 of 11353 Old 07-08-2014, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Looks like you're only missing KKPX 65.

You're getting K03HY on a 91XG? I never would have guessed. They're having intermittent link problems. I see the same thing on KFTY. It comes and goes.

Chuck
Going through my electronic junk piles I found a splitter/combiner/diplexer .... that has ports for VHF/LO 47-90Mhz, VHF/HI 174-230Mhz, & UHF 470-900Mhz
Not sure of any current vendor that may carry this type of combiner.
It is a Radio Shack part # 15-1236 ..... with a date of 06 - 1999 .... (Not sure of the loss of each port when combined)

This type of device would be handy for a North Bay Low VHF antenna added .... without a rotor for the San Francisco UHF.
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post #10848 of 11353 Old 07-09-2014, 09:13 AM
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FOX was perfect for us (Evergreen Area of San Jose) for the game but we did have some issues with KNTV 11 for last night's game, and 11 is usually spot on for us, the same as 2.1.
thanks for the info and data point. i'm not sure what was up. our antenna is in the attic and i've never seen any problems since i installed it in December. all other channels, including 11 were fine. 11 is actually one of our weakest received stations according to my signal meter on our computer tuner (long discontinued Miglia HD USB tuner for Mac), and that was fine when we lost signal on FOX (dropped momentarily below 50, when it is usually in the 70s)
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post #10849 of 11353 Old 07-09-2014, 09:33 AM
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thanks for the info and data point. i'm not sure what was up. our antenna is in the attic and i've never seen any problems since i installed it in December. all other channels, including 11 were fine. 11 is actually one of our weakest received stations according to my signal meter on our computer tuner (long discontinued Miglia HD USB tuner for Mac), and that was fine when we lost signal on FOX (dropped momentarily below 50, when it is usually in the 70s)
Our antenna is roof mounted about 30'AGL so it must have been something with 11. We never lose any stations regardless of weather but the problems with 11 the other night were certainly way out of the norm for us. Everything seems to be fine now, except for the Giants
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post #10850 of 11353 Old 07-09-2014, 11:47 PM
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Need antennas? Here are two good antennas that are available for free in West San Jose. The following post was received on the SF Bay Area HD Yahoo Group.

Larry

- - -

I have the 'Old' CM-4228 and a 6-element Yagi 7-13 along with a CM-7777 combiner/pre-amplifier with 6 and 10-ft masts available for free. I set this up about 10- years ago for a friend but he's joined Xfinity's dark side and asked me to recycle them for him.

Drop me a line at ken_todd@yahoo.com. if you're interested. The stuff is in my Santa Clara/West San Jose carport and must be moved.
__._,_.___

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post #10851 of 11353 Old 07-10-2014, 04:24 PM
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I was tuning around the channels earlier this afternoon and all of the distant stations - anything over 30 miles away - were way down in strength. 42 from Mt. Diablo and 68 from Novato were normal strength, but all of the South Bay stations, 1, 14, 36, 48 and 54, plus all of the Walnut Grove stations, 3, 6, 10, 13, 31, 58, and the two from Sonoma County, 22 and 50, were several dB low their usual level. All of the Walnut Grove stations except KQCA 58 were below the cliff edge. I don't remember a time when so many stations were coming in so low in strength.

It's like the atmosphere is soaking up the RF.

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post #10852 of 11353 Old 07-10-2014, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
...
It's like the atmosphere is soaking up the RF.

Larry
It would be interesting to see if the relative humidity affects your reception.

You may be looking up from a moist marine layer to transmitters in dry air more than other people.

This weather Underground station may be close to you.

http://www.wunderground.com/personal...NFR244#history

83% at 4:59 PM vs mine at 38%

http://www.wunderground.com/personal...ANTA58#history

The humidity graph lower on the page almost matches the one on my weather station.

-------------------------------

KEMO and KRCB at 97 and 75 miles are booming in. KTNC is there, it never gets good.

SHF

Last edited by SFischer1; 07-10-2014 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Darn double blank lines, I want only one!
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post #10853 of 11353 Old 07-10-2014, 05:51 PM
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I don't know guys... I'm down here in Evergreen and I have seen no "atmospheric" problems with OTA, and I've had the same antenna on my roof for almost 30 years. Location is the key I guess.
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post #10854 of 11353 Old 07-10-2014, 07:42 PM
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I don't know guys... I'm down here in Evergreen and I have seen no "atmospheric" problems with OTA, and I've had the same antenna on my roof for almost 30 years. Location is the key I guess.
My antennas have been in my attic for ~ 42 years. Now mostly silent due to a metal roof replacement.

June 12, 2009 and months before when I went all digital, I did not notice ghosts, snow and lots of other imperfections in the analog picture. We just ignored them. I remember watching late movies ~ 1960 with lots of snow. (Both on the screen and outside to be shoveled.)

It was the perfect or nothing with digital that focused us on the problems with OTA.

Until the digital antennas were moved to the top of Sutro and I was forced to put up an outside antenna in a panic, multipath was the rule.

The good old days were not so good! If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound? If there are "atmospheric" problems with OTA and you are not tuned to a channel with problems do they really occur?

SHF

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post #10855 of 11353 Old 07-10-2014, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

The good old days were not so good! If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound? If there are "atmospheric" problems with OTA and you are not tuned to a channel with problems do they really occur?

SHF
I like your analogy. All I know is that whenever we change channels, there are no problems, regardless of weather. Channel 11's recent issue this week was out of the norm. Our roof is metal as well, but the antenna is on top not underneath.
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post #10856 of 11353 Old 07-10-2014, 09:15 PM
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... Channel 11's recent issue this week was out of the norm. ...
From watching my ~ 15 minutes of the start captures of "Late Night with Seth Meyers" the last two nights I got the impression that it was not OTA but some other problem. As I FF most of the Tonight show my data is sparse.

I expect to stop watching the "Saturday Night Live" clones soon, I FF most of SNL also except for the opening piece and the news. One person driving three shows in the same building. Really!!!

SHF
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post #10857 of 11353 Old 07-11-2014, 01:23 AM
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I did another channel run-through tonight and all of the more distant signals are back to normal strength again. The only channel missing was KCRA 3, but that's always competing with KGO's translator on channel 35. When KGO's signal is down some, I get KCRA. When KGO is up, KCRA disappears.

Otto Pylot... you never see any change in signal strength on the signals from Sutro and Mt. San Bruno down there? The stations from the hills above Fremont vary quite a bit up here in SF for some reason. KAXT 1 is in here solid sometimes; other times it's below the cliff edge.

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post #10858 of 11353 Old 07-11-2014, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Otto Pylot... you never see any change in signal strength on the signals from Sutro and Mt. San Bruno down there? The stations from the hills above Fremont vary quite a bit up here in SF for some reason. KAXT 1 is in here solid sometimes; other times it's below the cliff edge.

Larry
I don't check my signal strength all that often. All I have is what's built-in to my LG and if the pq is fine (no pixelating or any other noise) I don't bother. I'm sure there is some variation in strength but nothing that affects pq. However, we mostly watch the majors, 2-1, 7-1, 5-1, 9-1, 11-1, 20-1 (sometimes), 36-1, 44-1, 54-1 and rarely "lurk around" to the other 50 or so odd stations that we can pick up. I also have a rotor but never bother to move it. Most of our viewing is in the evening (5pm to about 11pm) and on the weekends if there is a ball game on. From our position in Evergreen, we have pretty much a straight LOS to Sutro with nothing physical in the way. When we used to have stormy weather, rain, wind, and freezing cold never seems to bother our reception. The same holds true for those hot, muggy evenings. Just lucky I guess.
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post #10859 of 11353 Old 07-11-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post
I don't check my signal strength all that often. All I have is what's built-in to my LG and if the pq is fine (no pixelating or any other noise) I don't bother. I'm sure there is some variation in strength but nothing that affects pq. However, we mostly watch the majors, 2-1, 7-1, 5-1, 9-1, 11-1, 20-1 (sometimes), 36-1, 44-1, 54-1 and rarely "lurk around" to the other 50 or so odd stations that we can pick up. I also have a rotor but never bother to move it. Most of our viewing is in the evening (5pm to about 11pm) and on the weekends if there is a ball game on. From our position in Evergreen, we have pretty much a straight LOS to Sutro with nothing physical in the way. When we used to have stormy weather, rain, wind, and freezing cold never seems to bother our reception. The same holds true for those hot, muggy evenings. Just lucky I guess.
I don't think you're lucky. That's the way it's supposed to be. I'm sure you have variations in signal strength but with LOS you should not have significant problems. People who are LOS but still have problems are unlucky. I'll bet there are plenty of people watching OTA in the Bay Area that never have a problem. With my LOS or 1 edge stations I don't have problems either, even if they're far away. It's all the 2 edge paths including Walnut Grove that are problematic. You know my 2 edge path to Walnut Grove is tough when 320 watt KBSV LOS at 70 miles is about the same real signal strength as 600,000 watt KQCA at 54 miles and it doesn't drop out like KQCA does either.

Chuck
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post #10860 of 11353 Old 07-11-2014, 01:43 PM
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Today, 24 hours after the check where signals were all really low, signals are all stronger than normal. All of the Walnut Grove stations, 3, 6, 10, 13, 31 and 58, are all 18 dB SNR or higher. KMAX 31 is at 25 dB. Yesterday it was below the 15 dB cliff edge. KEMO 50 is booming in at 23 dB today. KAXT 1 is at 18 dB.

Weather conditions today seem to be pretty much the same as they were yesterday at this time, 66 degrees with 64% humidity. The only difference is humidity. According to Stephen humidity was higher here yesterday at 83%.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

Larry Kenney is offline  
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